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RFID Checks Student Attendance in Arizona

The student newspaper at UW-Madison is running a piece about the use of RFID to check lecture attendance at Northern Arizona University. One poster to an email discussion list suggested that getting around this system would be simple if "all one has to do is walk into a classroom with 10 RFID-enabled cards in their pocket." "The new system will use sensors to detect students' university identification cards when they enter classrooms, according to NAU spokesperson Tom Bauer. The data will be recorded and available for professors to examine. ... [The spokesman] added the sensors, paid for by federal stimulus money, initially would only be installed in large freshmen and sophomore classes with more than 50 students. NAU Student Body President Kathleen Templin said most students seem to be against the new system. She added students have started Facebook groups and petitions against the sensor system. ... One of the most popular Facebook groups ... has more than 1,400 members." What are the odds that the use of tracking RFID will expand over time on that campus?

27 of 554 comments (clear)

  1. Attendence in college? by Hatta · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Come on now. These are adults. If they choose to skip class because they feel their time is better spent elsewhere, that's their business. If they're wrong, they'll be punished at exam time. No attendance checks are necessary.

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    Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    1. Re:Attendence in college? by godrik · · Score: 4, Insightful

      As someone that taught in a French university: "I don't f-ing care whether students come or not in my class". It is THEIR problem if they fail the exam and the mid term, not mine.

    2. Re:Attendence in college? by mi · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If they're wrong, they'll be punished at exam time.

      Or, they turn around and blame the professor (and the school) for failing to teach them. And ask for their money back. If the school can demonstrate, that they have not attended the classes, they can defend themselves.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    3. Re:Attendence in college? by NFN_NLN · · Score: 5, Funny

      As someone that taught in a French university: "I don't f-ing care whether students come or not in my class". It is THEIR problem if they fail the exam and the mid term, not mine.

      What I find entertaining is some students started a facebook page to protest their invasion of privacy. Isn't that IRONIC?

    4. Re:Attendence in college? by lambent · · Score: 4, Insightful

      not really. it is often the case that students skip lecture, and then don't properly learn the material. they then either slow down the pace of the class during labs and recitation, or ask stupid question that they should already know the answer to in lecture, or waste the teacher's and ta's time by getting additional instruction on things they should already be aware of. this all then negatively affects the performance of students who actually try to attend and do all of their work properly.

      your conjecture would be correct, if the teaching staff would be willing to let these students fail. however, this often negatively reflects on the performance of the professor. thus, you have students that don't have the good grace to fail quietly, and teachers that have no option but to help them out. everyone suffers as a result.

      this is a growing problem in academia. go to any university (there is undoubtedly some form of post-secondary institution geographically close to where you are right now), and ask any of the instructors about this problem. they'll have a lot to say about the subject. so much so, in fact, that they probably wouldn't think to ask why some random person is asking them about class attendance out of the blue.

    5. Re:Attendence in college? by DudeTheMath · · Score: 4, Insightful

      My wife is a professor of English lit, and her reaction was the same: if your class is so large that you can't take attendance by hand in a few seconds, then it's too large for discussion, and if it's not a discussion class, who cares if you attend?

      --
      You save only 59 seconds over 8 miles by going 75 instead of 65. Do you really have to pass that guy? Do the Math!
    6. Re:Attendence in college? by characterZer0 · · Score: 4, Funny

      I support Barack Obama, but not his mission.

      Great. Then I support Osama bin Laden, but not his mission.

      --
      Go green: turn off your refrigerator.
    7. Re:Attendence in college? by blueg3 · · Score: 4, Informative

      When I taught as a TA, we tracked attendance by hand in TA'd sections. (Not using RFID technology, tracking attendance in lectures was pointless.) It's useful information to the instructor to know whether someone who is doing poorly (or doing well) has good attendance. We also often ran into students who liked to file complaints when they got a grade they didn't like. If you've tracked attendance and they have poor attendance, you can quickly show that their complain has no merit.

    8. Re:Attendence in college? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I don't know what the fuss is about. That's being done in some universities in Portugal for some years now.

      This is one of my favorite arguments: What's such a big deal about asking people to show papers? North Korea's been doing it for years!

      I'm sorry, but just because something is done in Portugal does not mean a state university in Arizona should be doing it, too.

      When you get to university, an assumption must be made that you are responsible for your own time. If you can skip lectures and your work product and exam results show you have learned the material, so what? This isn't the third grade, and we don't need truant officers to make sure adults show up to class. The freshman at my institution are mostly 18 years old. That means they can vote, and they can risk their lives in our foreign wars. In my opinion, that makes them adults, and that gives them responsibility over their use of time.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    9. Re:Attendence in college? by chebucto · · Score: 5, Insightful

      But you forget that the phrase 'support our troops' is weaselise in the first place.

      What, exactly, do you think that the phrase means? How, precisely, do you 'support the troops'?

      Do you support them in that you hope they will come back alive? Do you support them in re-integrating into civilian life after discharge? Do you support them by hoping they win their battles? Do you support them in hoping they succeed in their mission?

      Make no mistake, 'support our troops' means everything and nothing. Effectively, the phrase was coined to stifle debate, "banking on you and I not wanting to raise a fuss because no one wants to be seen as unsupportive of men and women risking their lives. (link)

      To quote a real Troop:

      http://www.uruknet.org.uk/?p=m26522&hd=0&size=1&l=e

      Do you distinguish any difference between supporting the troops and supporting the war?

      I have to wonder since I hear that phrase a lot. What does it mean for one to "Support the Troops"? Do they have a list local kids who are serving in Iraq for whom they pray each Sunday Mass? Do they decorate their SUVs with magnetic yellow ribbons? It seems to be a phrase that opponents and advocates of this war alike feel obligated to mention as routinely as they breathe. In fact, for any one to say otherwise since September 11th, 2001 is a veritable anathema. It's a useful quote, whether to reiterate your position or cover your ass. Beyond that, I don't pay it much mind.

      I am aware that veterans returning from the Vietnam War were picketed, assaulted and stigmatized. I am grateful to have never experienced that, at least not on a scale with what they endured.

      I would like to relate a story to you, which I think illuminates my point.

      It was the spring of 2004. I had returned from my first tour several months before. I bought a 2-door Geo Metro hatchback with the money I had earned overseas. My girlfriend at the time was an outspoken critic of SUVs, so I figured she would approve. John Kerry's campaign was picking up steam. A good friend of mine who was working for his campaign in Iowa had sent me a "John Kerry for President" bumper sticker, which I proudly placed on the bumper of my car right above my "United States Marine Corps" sticker. I was driving through Westchester County (one of NY State's more affluent areas) and got caught up in a traffic jam. All of a sudden the car behind me, a huge black Escalade, pulled up beside me. The driver, a fat, red-faced man in his late thirties/early forties began to scream at me. "What the Fuck is the matter with you? Do you support the troops or don't you? Yeah, you're a fucking flip flopper!" It took me a moment to realize he was referring to my "politically confused" bumper stickers. The idea that a person could simultaneously support his military and the democratic challenger was evidently too nuanced for him. And off he went, his magnetic yellow ribbon gleaming in the sun. The irony of a fat forty-something who had ostensibly never served in the military, who drives a gas guzzling road monster berating an Iraq War veteran in his Geo Metro for not supporting the troops would be forever lost on him.

      I just can't describe what I am trying to say any better than that.

      Saying you support the troops is like saying you love Jesus. To insinuate anything to the contrary, even supporting an investigation of troop misconduct, is to open oneself to all points of vituperation. I realize this doesn't really answer your question. I just hear the phrase thrown around so much, abused and misrepresented for political purposes that I can no longer take it at face value.

      --
      The English word fart is one of the oldest words in the English vocabulary.
    10. Re:Attendence in college? by 517714 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      As a freshman I went to my chemistry class six times - first day of class and 5 tests. I got the highest grade in the class of about 300 thanks to having a great teacher in high school (Thank you, Mr Saieed). If I had gone more I would have eventually picked up what the instructor was saying and certainly would have scored much lower. Under this system of monitoring attendance they would undoubtedly conclude that I must have cheated, rather than that the instructor was incompetent and I already knew the material.

      Unless the administration can provide compelling reasons why monitoring will benefit students, it should not be done. What is the state going to do when merchants or others start reading the RFIDs and using the information for their own nefarious purposes? Personally I would take it a challenge to screw with the University, clone the tags of mine and several dozen friends, put them in faraday cages and magically appear and disappear all over campus.

      --
      The US government have made it clear that we have no inalienable rights; any we do not defend vigorously will be taken.
    11. Re:Attendence in college? by RichardJenkins · · Score: 4, Funny

      "I don't f-ing care whether students come or not in my class"

      I think it would be a little distracting if they did.

    12. Re:Attendence in college? by DM9290 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      As someone that taught in a French university: "I don't f-ing care whether students come or not in my class". It is THEIR problem if they fail the exam and the mid term, not mine.

      What I find entertaining is some students started a facebook page to protest their invasion of privacy. Isn't that IRONIC?

      No not really. They choose to publish some information on facebook, does not mean they want their university to track their location from moment to moment.

      --
      No one has a right to their *own* opinion. They have a right to the TRUTH.
    13. Re:Attendence in college? by bcrowell · · Score: 5, Interesting

      >>If they're wrong, they'll be punished at exam time.

      >Or, they turn around and blame the professor (and the school) for failing to teach them. And ask for their money back. If the school can demonstrate, that they have not attended the classes, they can defend themselves.

      IAACCP (I am a community college professor), teaching physics. Parent is sort of on the right track, although wrong about the specifics.

      Students at my school hate -- hate hate HATE!!! -- any course in which the grade in the course is based 100% on exams. Why do they hate it? Because it's unfair. Why is it unfair? Because their grades on exams are always unfair. Always. They deserved more partial credit. The exam problems weren't the same as the ones in the book. The exam had a problem on that one chapter that they didn't understand, and that wasn't fair, because they understood the other chapters. Also, the student's friend got a bad grade too, and that proves that the exam was unfair, because that shows that nobody could do it.

      As a professor, I do not have the option of doing something that is perceived as unfair, even if the perception is totally based on self-delusion and wishful thinking. It's not, as the parent suggests, that the students will sue. It's simply that they will choose not to enroll in my classes. Then all my sections will get canceled. Yeah, I have tenure, but my life is going to get pretty miserable if every class I teach is canceled every single semester.

      So what I have to do is cover my exams with a figleaf of other graded work. In my physics lecture/lab classes, 75% of their grade in lecture is based on exams. The other 25% doesn't really have any effect on their grades, but it's enough to convince them that their grade wasn't completely based on those horrible, unfair exams. I've always collected homework papers and written comments on them, but the psychological perception of fairness requires that these papers count for some tiny amount of credit (16% is what I'm doing these days). It's not satisfactory to the students just to get comments written on their paper so they have feedback; they feel that it must count for some pathetic number of points, or else the course is unfair. I've explored some of the other psychological parameters of what they perceive as fair. For example, I've tried (a) giving four equally weighted exams, and (b) giving two "practice" exams that didn't count much, plus a midterm and final that counted a lot. Option b was considered extremely unfair, so I had to switch back to a.

      So I have absolutely no option but to have something like 25% of their grade be based on something other than exams. As long as I'm doing that, what the heck does it matter whether or not I take attendance? My school requires me to take attendance, and drop students who don't attend. I don't have a problem with that. I just use homework to determine attendance, and anyone who's not turning in homework (or other written work) gets dropped. If they do the homework but get their friend to drop it off for them, I don't have a problem with that.

      What TFA seems to be describing is the kind of thing that happens in a particular sort of class at big state universities. This is the kind of class where there are 300, 400, or 500 students in a gigantic auditorium. State universities teach a bunch of their freshman classes this way because it saves them a ton of money. Students' perceptions of fairness and unfairness are determined by different criteria in this type of class. Everyone knows that lectures in this type of class are a complete waste of time. Everyone knows that this type of class represents an extremely poor quality of education. Given that the whole thing is a sham, it makes sense to do silly stuff like using RFID for attendance, because the whole thing is just a cynical exercise, so why not do the thing that minimizes costs? And students, of course, do not have the option of voting with their feet, because these 500-person classes exist by virtue of the fact that they're required courses, and freshmen have no other options.

  2. closed mentality by drDugan · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This comes from a scarcity, closed-system mentality: log and track access. Mostly people who still think this way have not been shown better ways.

    They could have done it open: used the resources to video record the classes, and broadcast them on campus (They did this at Stanford when I was there). Students, if they find value in being in the classroom would go, otherwise they could watch the recorded version. Benefits for the students are time shifting, taking breaks as needed, and 1.5x speed playback are obvious examples. For the university, recordings create tools for distance learning, and open education initiatives. For everyone, building a more open approach builds goodwill, and can be used for dramatic marketing and PR advantage.

    The whole essence of education works better when the student originates the driving motivation to learn. Putting in place systems that force learning on someone (for example, tracking attendance) while may seem to improve results short term, actually reduce success long term for the person.

  3. PROFIT! by Bananatree3 · · Score: 4, Funny

    1) Lobby for this in your state

    2) Go back to college, target ones with huge classes and this RFID attendance checking system

    3) Advertise that, for a small fee, you'll gladly take people's cards with you to class. Once you get to class, take a nap

    ???

    Profit!

  4. Stimulus? by daemonenwind · · Score: 4, Insightful

    How is ordering RFID-backed ID card blanks putting federal cash to work on "shovel-ready" projects?

    Let me guess....campus maintenance staff would've been fired over the summer if they didn't need to set up card readers at the door to a few classrooms? Does anybody believe this stuff anymore?

  5. Sign Up To My Facebook Group!! by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Sign up for my Facebook group, we're protesting this invasion of our privacy!!

    (good god, I hope at least some of the older slashdot denizens see the irony in it)

  6. Re:Why? by MBGMorden · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Who cares if the consumer does not show up to receive the service he paid for?

    While I'm not going to completely disagree with you, I think it's important to note that the notion that "the student is a customer" has some gotcha clauses.

    Namely, at public universities (which are very common and typically have the largest student populations), a very large (usually a majority) portion of the tuition for in-state students is being subsidized by the government. Even tuition for out-of-state students is subsidized, though usually at a much lower rate.

    In that regard, even though they're still paying something, suggesting that they are as a customer paying for the whole of their experience is misleading.

    Also, a school has to have SOME standards, as the degree that they issue signifies to others some meaning about that person. Without that degree stating that the person has met some level of standards, the value of the degree for everyone holding it is diminished. Now whether or not those standards should extend to attendance is debatable, but there's plenty of justification for the university dictating terms which persons pursuing a degree must meet.

    --
    "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
  7. "their business" - or is it? by Animaether · · Score: 4, Insightful

    With many students being denied entry into a particular college/university/etc. because they are at their supposed maximum capacity.. I, for one, would think it entirely that college/university's business to say "If you're not going to attend, gtfo - we'd rather have somebody who does." as a deterrent to future students who plan on low/no attendance.

  8. I hate mandatory attendance by OrwellianLurker · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I truly despise mandatory attendance. It forces students who don't want to be there to attend (remember the distracting assholes in K-12?). It punishes students who actually contribute when they are there, while others who do not contribute merely have to BE THERE. It is often used by professors who give boring lectures. As students, we should be allowed to manage our own time. I'm considering going into education (college level) and if I do, I will NEVER do this crap.

    --
    'Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun.' - Mao Tse-tung
  9. Silly Me by hyades1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I thought the point of post-secondary education was that attendance is optional, knowledge of course content is required, and verified by examination. Some of my profs were among the most brilliant people I've ever met. Sadly, a number of them had the personality and teaching skill of a venomous reptile. Forcing students into regular contact with them would have been regarded as a war crime in any civilized country on Earth.

    --
    I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
  10. Prove it does not work by RichMan · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Wrap your card in tinfoil and keep it in your pocket and go to class.
    Then ask to see the attendance record immediately after class, before leaving the class. Because you are worried about the attendance being correctly recorded.
    You will not be on the list. Just pull out the card to prove it was on your person.

    System proven to fail. Go on record as protesting the failure of the attendance system to accurately record your presence.

    For bonus points:
    Then have everyone bug the system every time after every class to confirm their attendance, so they don't get deducted by the system for not being present.

  11. I Hate Taking Attendance by dcollins · · Score: 4, Informative

    Man, I hate taking attendance. As far as I'm concerned, attendance should have nothing to do with assessments in college. Moreover, it's a huge waste of time having to do this paper-shuffling stuff at the beginning of each class session.

    However, it's just about the ONE thing that the administration of the college I teach at is totally anal about. They require it, they have an awkward official form that must be filled with checks for every student for every class meeting (can't use my own design, or a spreadsheet, or an online summary), it's the one thing they have a big boldface BY SIGNING HERE YOU VERIFY YOU HAVE CHECKED ATTENDANCE RECORDS FOR ACCURACY.

    Why? Because it's how they document financial aid. Most of the students attending are on some form of government financial aid, and if they potentially withdraw or don't show up, the college can point to this roster and say, "See? Student attended class. Pay up, state agency." I'm wasting hours of time every semester with this CYA bullshit -- but to the administration, getting paid trumps all else.

    I also recently spearheaded an insurgency against an attempt to make attendance a passing requirement in my department's remedial courses. Fortunately (largely because the department chair is a fellow union member and thus responsive -- administration trying to remove that asap), that one did get knocked down.

    --
    We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
  12. May have to do with Student Loans and Refunds by Cerlyn · · Score: 4, Informative

    If you have any student loans, universities in the United States are required to report your last date of attendance, if you are attending at least half time or not, and other information to the National Student Loan Data System. This may be an automated way that they are trying to get information for this.

    While I imagine universities are not going to rush to using the last date you showed up in class versus the current date for refund and grading (withdrawal with no grade versus withdrawal-failing/withdrawal-pass, etc.), I could easily see universities using this data in the event of a grade dispute or similar issue.

  13. Re:Exams in college? by CheshireCatCO · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Actually, it generally shows you can cram. It's not the same as real learning. I've seen plenty of students who could ace an exam and still couldn't apply a thing they'd learned in a real situation (even in a lab).

    Real world situations mean having to actually use what your know, not simply rattle off facts back to someone. That's a skill you can learn (and should learn) in college, but most exams don't teach that at all.

  14. Re:Supporting weaselese by chebucto · · Score: 4, Insightful

    How, precisely, do you 'support the troops'? Do you support them in that you hope they will come back alive? Do you support them in re-integrating into civilian life after discharge? Do you support them by hoping they win their battles? Do you support them in hoping they succeed in their mission?

    Although different people would stress different items from your list, a straightforward person would list all of the above.

    So by your own words, a straighforward reading of 'support our troops' implies supporting the mission. And you're confused why someone would want to say 'support the troops without supporting the mission'?

    If you support the wars in Afghanistan & Iraq, say so. Don't use phrases that confuse concern for the welfare of solders & servicemen with approval of foreign wars.

    --
    The English word fart is one of the oldest words in the English vocabulary.