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Another Stab At a Canadian DMCA

whisper_jeff writes "News has come out that Prime Minister Stephen Harper is planning on bringing the DMCA to Canada. As a Canadian, this disgusts me. Watching Harper sell out Canadians in favour of US lobby groups is an affront. I am hopeful that enough Canadians write to Harper and their MPs to voice their disapproval of this effort."

45 of 237 comments (clear)

  1. Another Stab At a Canadian DMCA by WrongSizeGlass · · Score: 4, Funny

    Wouldn't that be "Another Stab At a Canadian DMC'eh?"

    1. Re:Another Stab At a Canadian DMCA by Capt.DrumkenBum · · Score: 5, Insightful

      As a Canadian I am usually pretty nonviolent. But I have had enough of this asshole! Would somebody please take a stab at Harper?
      He does not represent me, or anyone I know.
      I think it is time for a revolution.

      --
      If I were God, wouldn't I protect my churches from acts of me?
    2. Re:Another Stab At a Canadian DMCA by tsm_sf · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's got to suck to see all of those "Canada is a US state/protectorate/pawn" digs gain traction, eh?

      I'm surprised this hasn't become a huge political liability for him. Wouldn't it take just one commercial showing how he bends the country over for his "American corporate masters" to get him out of office?

      Canada, you're supposed to be the sane one in this relationship. Don't make us hit you.

      --
      Literalism isn't a form of humor, it's you being irritating.
    3. Re:Another Stab At a Canadian DMCA by z4ns4stu · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Since you have a British-style parliament, aren't you able to do things like votes of no confidence to get rid of a PM (or any MP, for that matter)? That's a far sight better than what most of the U.S. states have -- wait for the term to expire and hope like hell you can get another candidate with better name recognition on the ballot.

      --
      The whole moon and the entire sky are reflected in one dewdrop on the grass. - Dogen
    4. Re:Another Stab At a Canadian DMCA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      We don't do it in front of foreigners

    5. Re:Another Stab At a Canadian DMCA by dkleinsc · · Score: 2, Funny

      Why not just put a pie in his face? It seems like that's almost par for the course, with reports like this.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    6. Re:Another Stab At a Canadian DMCA by Jerry+Rivers · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Canada already has a minority government and the alternative, a Liberal government, would be no better. Canadians already know this and this why the Tories they have been elected multiple times. The last time the Libs threatened a vote of no confidence they dropped in the polls to a near-record low. Canadians are sick of expensive elections too close together, and minority governments that only last six months.

      If anybody actually thinks that putting the Liberals in power will really change anything, they are just fooling themselves. They would just cripple the armed forces then end up doing exactly the same thing the Tories are doing now with copyright law.

      --
      The pursuit of absolute tolerance leads to the most rigorous and ludicrous intolerance. - REX MURPHY
    7. Re:Another Stab At a Canadian DMCA by fyoder · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Since you have a British-style parliament, aren't you able to do things like votes of no confidence to get rid of a PM (or any MP, for that matter)?

      No confidence would bring down the government. Then there would be an election, and because the left is split and Canadians collectively are too daft to vote strategically, even though the Conservatives only have 34% support last poll I looked at, they'd still get the most votes and we'd be right back where we are now.

      What's required isn't a revolution, but a coalition such as that proposed after the last election. But the Liberals backed down. It's not difficult to see why they are so unpopular. A coalition would have represented the will of the Canadian people, the majority of which voted left of centre. The sooner the Liberal party gets rid of Ignatieff and replaces him with someone with some backbone, the better it will be for both the Liberals and the people of Canada.

      --
      Loose lips lose spit.
    8. Re:Another Stab At a Canadian DMCA by Capt.DrumkenBum · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I am not advocating a change of government. I firmly believe that a minority government, such as we have now, at least prevents anyone from really fucking things up. Personally I advocate throwing the party leaders out on their collective asses. Lord knows they have proven time and time again they they can not work or play well with others.

      I can not think of one that would be out of place working on a seedy used car lot.

      --
      If I were God, wouldn't I protect my churches from acts of me?
    9. Re:Another Stab At a Canadian DMCA by ve3 · · Score: 2

      As another non-violent (usually) Canadian, I welcome this opportunity to tell my MP's that if they vote for this piece of monkey poo, I will do whatever I can to make sure they are never elected again.

    10. Re:Another Stab At a Canadian DMCA by countertrolling · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think it is time for a revolution.

      Oh please! Why don't you count the votes first? He didn't force his way in.. unless the CIA was somehow behind it

      --
      For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    11. Re:Another Stab At a Canadian DMCA by compro01 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The effect is called Canadian raising. It's partially dependent on the listener. Someone who speaks in the same manner (other Canadians, people from the northwest states and New England, some Brits) will hear it as "abowt" as normal, whereas someone who speaks it differently may hear it as "aboat" or "aboot".

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    12. Re:Another Stab At a Canadian DMCA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      From a Displaced BC native living in Oregon,
      Much the same as how in the US the political views in the northeastern states (and around Washington, DC) are different than the political views are in Washington state and Oregon. It is a differing view of the country, really. I have met and talked to many back east that have an attitude that Oregon is still 'the Wild West'. The view of BC/Alberta from Quebec and Ontario echoes that sentiment.
      Also, there is different emphasis on political platforms. While Universal Healthcare is most important in some places, the economy is WAY more important in Oregon (high unemployment). Environmental concerns are higher in the West (probably because we still have lots more open, untapped space than the tightly knit cities and states on the Eastern seaboard). The western states also seem to be a little more liberal than their eastern counterparts, where all the money/power/large corporations seem to be centered.

      Just a Canuck's opinion, though.

    13. Re:Another Stab At a Canadian DMCA by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You know what? Harper only represents two groups:
      1) the members of his riding
      2) the members of his caucus

      Canada isn't the US -- we don't elect the Prime Minister; the other Ministers do. Until they elect him, he only represents his local riding.

      What this means though, is that if enough elected representatives feel he has to go, they can get rid of him. So, if enough Canadians contact their representatives letting them know that this is the will of the people, they'll get rid of him and elect someone else to lead the cause....

      oh well.

    14. Re:Another Stab At a Canadian DMCA by dubbreak · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I don't think anyone will disagree that the gun registry was a huge flop. Poorly planned, poorly executed and half baked to begin with. The benefits of a gun registry are of course debatable.

      The digital rights issues are of course a concern, but more is what has led to them: a government that panders to american politics, policies and worst of all american lobbyists (it's bad enough having to worry about our own lobby groups).

      Another huge irk is when the conservatives brought up same sex marriage. We already did that one and decided on equal rights. Canada is supposed to be progressive and diverse (of course what do you expect from a group that calls themselve conservatives). In my experience Canada has been extremely good at recognizing the diversity of its citizens and making sure we all have equal rights (regardless of ethnicity, religion or even sexual orientation). In light of that the action of the Conservative party appears very un-canadian.

      We definitely need more people out voting and we need the smaller parties to get more traction (such as the Green party, which is basically a throw away vote at this time). Don't even get me started on the provincial government and the HST they are shoving down our throats. Yes, we may need more tax revenue, but the way they went about it was all wrong.

      --
      "If you are going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
    15. Re:Another Stab At a Canadian DMCA by OnePumpChump · · Score: 2, Informative

      The armed forces that got the longest distance sniper kill ever recorded.

    16. Re:Another Stab At a Canadian DMCA by Shark · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Can you think of a country where the leader genuinely does nowadays? Governments stopped serving the people years ago. Give yourself a couple years after any replacement and you'll feel the exact same way, even if you voted them in.

      It's not the public figure you're really angry with though, it's the ones pulling its strings. And guess what, you can't vote those in or out of where they stand. You honestly think Harper has any deep ideological views towards copyrights? He's just doing what he'll gain most from on a personal level.

      You want things to change, shine a light on them like Michael Geist is doing. That's a principle you can apply to just about everything that's wrong with the way we are governed too.

      --
      Mind the frickin' laser...
    17. Re:Another Stab At a Canadian DMCA by Kierthos · · Score: 2, Informative

      Second-longest now. A British sniper hit two Al-Qaeda members from around 150 feet further out.

      --
      Mr. Hu is not a ninja.
    18. Re:Another Stab At a Canadian DMCA by Jerry+Rivers · · Score: 2, Insightful
      --
      The pursuit of absolute tolerance leads to the most rigorous and ludicrous intolerance. - REX MURPHY
  2. Been waiting... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm quite disgusted also. I've been emailing the office of the prime minister for over two months in regards to the ACTA. It is quite pathetic they cannot even take the time to address an issue in the active public eye. Even a generic spin would be nice. All I've been asking for is some information on the stance of my own government.

    We as Canadians should lobby. This is a disgust that the Harper government is not taking into account the will of the people whatsoever.

    1. Re:Been waiting... by rsborg · · Score: 3, Insightful

      All I've been asking for is some information on the stance of my own government.

      What we're witnessing, I fear, is the broadcast model of government: You and your country's wealth are the product, to be sold to the highest bidding corporation(s). We've had this system in the USA for quite some time, and it's been great for the Corporations.

      --
      Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
  3. Join the Canadian Pirate Party by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Along with writing your MP, you could also get involved in the Canadian Pirate Party.

  4. Don't let 'em, congress! by T+Murphy · · Score: 5, Funny

    I hope our US congress claims copyright over the DMCA and files a takedown notice on you Canadians. Stealing our horrible draconian legislation? You wish!

  5. Sell-out by gyrogeerloose · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Watching Harper sell out Canadians in favour of US lobby groups is an affront.

    If it makes you feel any better, watching our own Congress sell out all of us who live in the United States to US lobby groups was just as bad.

    --
    This ain't rocket surgery.
  6. Re:Perhaps you should check your priorities... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Such a prospect assumes that there exists Canadian IP that is worth protecting.

  7. Ok, really? by Darkness404 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Ok, looking at what the US DMCA has done, can you really say its improved the US in any way? Lets see here, thanks to the DMCA we now have judges wasting their time on victimless crimes, record companies still screwing artists and a rush of high-tech jobs out of the US.

    The DMCA hinders education, harms jobs and makes developing in China and India even better. Why Canada would even consider such a terrible piece of legislation is beyond me.

    --
    Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    1. Re:Ok, really? by Mashiki · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Considering we have strict copyright laws already in existence and a levy system on most blank media. This is stupid, idiotic, and removes the right that you "own" a device. And I'm a member of the CPC who votes at delegate conventions. I guess it's physical letter writing time to my MP and others again, along with some other things.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    2. Re:Ok, really? by Mashiki · · Score: 4, Informative

      Physical letters always work best. Email is always dismissed out of hand despite the use of it, even in parliament. I'll say this, politicians get worried when they drown in paper from the public.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    3. Re:Ok, really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Because NOBODY IS FUCKING LOSING ANY MONEY

      I won't be buying your shitty album or paying to see your shitty movie. This is true if I download it or I don't download it.

      End of discussion.

  8. Re:Perhaps you should check your priorities... by WrongSizeGlass · · Score: 3, Funny

    Such a prospect assumes that there exists Canadian IP that is worth protecting.

    Isn't William Shatner worth protecting?

  9. Re:Perhaps you should check your priorities... by Mordok-DestroyerOfWo · · Score: 2, Informative

    I think Celine Dion, William Shatner, Bryan Adams, and Nickelback would beg to differ!

    --
    "Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
  10. Re:Perhaps you should check your priorities... by Darkness404 · · Score: 3, Funny

    Exactly! We need to protect everyone from the horrors of Nickleback. Perhaps we should give them 300 year copyright?

    --
    Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
  11. Remember the plagiarised report on copyright? by Scrameustache · · Score: 4, Informative

    a deceptive, plagiarized report on the digital economy that copied text from the International Intellectual Property Alliance (the primary movie, music, and software lobby in the U.S.), at times without full attribution. The report itself was funded by copyright lobby groups (U.S. Chamber of Commerce, Canadian Chamber of Commerce, Canadian Anti-Counterfeiting Network, Copyright Collective of Canada which represents U.S. film production) along with the Ontario Ministry of Research and Innovation. The role of the Ontario government obviously raises questions about taxpayer dollars being used to pay for a report that simply recycles the language of a U.S. lobby group paper.

    --

    You can't take the sky from me...

  12. Re:If no one will say it, I will...... by gyrogeerloose · · Score: 2, Funny

    careful canada, you guy's are dangerous.

    Hey, you've obviously never spent any time in one of those wild Canadian border towns. Take in the Donkey Show at West Lynne, Manitoba some time and you'll see how dangerous those Canucks can be.

    --
    This ain't rocket surgery.
  13. Take the time to write your MP by Fuji+Kitakyusho · · Score: 4, Informative

    I became aware of this while reading Michael Geist's blog this morning (http://www.michaelgeist.ca/) - a good resource for information about copyright law, privacy matters and so forth. I'm in the process of composing a letter to my MP right now, and I encourage all of the Canadians here to follow suit. Only by voicing your concerns can you be an agent of change.

  14. The Deal Is Done by mindbrane · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's unlikely to do any good lobbying Harper. Harper's unfulfilled dream is to be President of the U.S.A. He's as much big business, especially big oil business, as any American President could be. Further Harper's modus operandi demands he serve the wishes of the copyright lobby. His use of the media to cast his opponents in the worst possible light is his guiding star as a politician. He's a consummate sophist, seemingly utterly without any philosophy, other than to win and hold onto power. He has done cameos in various popular TV shows in slick, self deprecating clips. A politician who relies as heavily on superficial, mass media self promotion as does Harper will cut a wink 'n nod, tacit deal with big media companies. I think it's critically important to note the heavy use politicians in all countries make of mass media to further their political agendas. In the U.S.A. a loop is closing around the American citizenry. Big government, the military industrial complex and big, mass media corporations comprise an unholy trinity. In Canada the military industrial complex is missing but the possible crippling of the rights of individual citizens remains as much of a threat as corporations are given greater entitlements while being able to shield themselves from just punishments for their wrong doings. Two main problems come from the need to create jobs and compete internationally. Politicians need job creation programmes to bring home the bacon to their constituents and big business can deliver massive job creation programmes as well as threaten massive job losses. Further the majority of advanced, industrialized countries seemed to have opted for promoting mega corporations as a new, privileged class akin to medieval knights whose resources better ensure successful international competition.

    --
    ideopath @ play
  15. Re:Canada...an incredible country by cayenne8 · · Score: 2, Interesting
    "The chances of anybody getting "busted for hate speech" are close to zero."

    Anything above zero...is too much, IMHO.

    --
    Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
  16. Takedowns are _not_ a creature of the DMCA by John+Hasler · · Score: 2

    The DMCA DRM provisions are pernicious (though not as powerful as most here seem to believe). The DMCA "Safe Harbor" provisions are not. Takedowns would exist without them. However, without "Safe Harbor" they would not have to follow a prescribed form, there would be no counter-takedown procedure, there would be no 30 day deadline for filing for infringement, and most important of all, service providers would be liable even if they complied with takedowns. The DMCA Safe Harbor does not expand the rights or powers of copyright owners in any way. On the contrary, it reduces them. Without the DMCA there would be no YouTube.

    Unfortunately from what I have seen the DMCA-like statutes proposed in other countries seems to only expand the rights and powers of copyright owners without providing any additional protection for users. Don't let them pass. If that puts you in violation of TRIPS, tough. Withdraw from the damn thing: it's crap. If you must enact a local DMCA, at least make sure it goes no farther than the US one does (and insist that it create a fair use right if you don't already have one and does not reduce it if you do).

    --
    Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
  17. electoral boundaries by Chirs · · Score: 2, Informative

    The Prime Minister is not elected directly, he's simply the head of the party that got the most seats.

    Currently the Conservatives are the government, but they don't hold a majority of seats in the house of Commons, so to get anything passed they need to convince at least some representatives of the other parties that it's a good idea.

    The Conservatives were largely elected because of a happen-stance of how electoral boundaries are drawn. For instance, I myself live in the city but my electoral district includes a lot of rural area. The rural area tends to vote Conservative, so my own vote for _any_ other party is basically worthless.

    1. Re:electoral boundaries by SpottedKuh · · Score: 2, Informative

      The Prime Minister is not elected directly, he's simply the head of the party that got the most seats.

      To clarify further, the prime minister can actually be any person at all (it's constitutionally questionable whether the prime minister even need be a Canadian citizen over 18 years of age). The Canadian system of government is very different from the American system, and few Canadians know how our system actually works (thanks to bombardment of American media and their electoral system).

      The head of state is the Queen of Canada, Elizabeth II, who is also the Queen of England. Her duties are carried out by the Queen's representative in Canada, the Governor General (currently Michaëlle Jean), who is appointed by the Queen on the advice of the prime minister.

      When elections are called in Canada (which happens every five years, or sooner if the government loses the confidence of the house), Canadians go to the polls and elect 308 representatives to the House of Commons -- one representative from each riding in the country, in a first-past-the-poll vote. While there are some independent members elected to the house, typically the members come from one of the four major political parties: the Conservatives (right-of-centre), the Liberals (central), the New Democratic Party (left-of-centre), or the Bloc Québécois (a Quebec-interest-only party). The Green Party (left-of-centre) has also nearly elected some members to the house, and briefly held a house seat after one member crossed the floor.

      Once the 308 members have been elected to the house, the Governor General chooses someone to be the prime minister. That person will form a government by choosing people (here, I mean anyone he or she pleases from the general population) to be their ministers.

      The newly formed government, with the prime minister chosen by the Governor General and ministers chosen by the prime minister, then faces a vote of confidence by the house. Here is where the elected representatives of Canada have their say: do they have confidence in the abilities of the newly formed government to lead the country? If they say no, the Governor General must either find a new prime minister and government that could hold the confidence of the house, or dissolve parliament and call a new election to find 308 new representatives.

      So, in practice, in order to ensure that the chosen prime minister and government will have the confidence of the house, the Governor General will appoint the leader of the party with the most seats in parliament as the prime minister. But, with all that said, it's important to note that our system is very, very different from the American system in which a president is elected.

  18. I sent this: by Khyber · · Score: 2, Interesting

    To the contact provided on this web link and I bet this will put a fat dent in it coming to fruition:

    Mr. Harper,

    Speaking as an American citizen, I'm glad you are selling out to our interests. I love having more slaves indebted to our system and YOU especially make a rather appropriate addition to our collection of sockpuppets with no real power or intelligence.

    Keep up the good work, and bring me more slaves to do our bidding!

    --
    Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
  19. Re:Canada...an incredible country by laughingcoyote · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Obviously, the right to publicly hate on minorities (or majorities) is totally awesome!

    Yes, actually, it is. Now that doesn't mean actually doing it is awesome, or that I in any way agree with doing such a thing. In fact, most people find such speech highly offensive (and that includes many who are not members of the minority in question).

    However, it means I can also say things, without worrying if people find them offensive. I can say "Religions are fairy tales for adults" or "The last president was a sack of shit and this one's only marginally better if at all" or "I wish all corporations larger than a certain size would be broken up". I cannot be prosecuted for saying any of those things, even though there are people who will strongly dislike each of those statements.

    In exchange for that right, I'll gladly accept a few idiots wearing their white hoods and going around spouting crap. If anything, that educates the public on just how ridiculous and ignorant those people are. And a lot of people exercise the right they do have in that scenario-to point out just how stupid it is.

    --
    To fight the war on terror, stop being afraid.
  20. Re:Canada...an incredible country by grcumb · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Yeah..but if you go up there and and say publicly that "I think [insert racial, sexual orientation, etc type slang] suck" and you can actually get busted for "hate speech".

    No you can't.

    Hate speech requires that you make actual threats against a given group. In fact, even saying 'All ${FOO}s should die!' isn't enough to get you busted. It has to be clear that you are actually advocating for their collective demise. You could even say, 'I'm going to kill that ${FOO} right now!' and not be guilty of hate speech, because your hatred was aimed at an individual whom you incidentally were calling names.

    But way, way before you get to the point of being arrested, you'll be shunned for being the bigot that you are, if you don't get punched in the face for your efforts. See, we Canadians value free speech so much that we try[*] to be polite and respectful when we use it.

    If you want to be a know-nothing, racist fuckwit in Canada, you can. But it'll be a pretty lonely existence.

    -------------
    [*] All bets are off at a hockey game.

    --
    Crumb's Corollary: Never bring a knife to a bun fight.
  21. Re:Canada...an incredible country by SpeedyDX · · Score: 4, Informative

    Actually, there are many barriers to entry into the Canadian marketplace. Taxes, ownership restrictions, tariffs, operational regulations, etc. are all important considerations. In fact, for many products and services, entry into the Canadian marketplace faces more barriers than many other EU or Asian countries.

    One of the first and most restrictive factors is the ownership and management restrictions. Take the wireless industry for example. A wireless carrier has to have at least 50% Canadian ownership in order to operate in Canada. This means that T-Mobile, for example, can't just waddle over across the border and start buying frequency, putting up towers, and offering a service. We've had a recent case where it was debated whether or not a certain wireless carrier (Wind Mobile) actually met that ownership requirement. There's also a general requirement for all corporations that the Board of Directors is comprised of at least 25% Canadians (or a minimum of 1 Canadian if the Board has less than 4 Directors).

    Many of our industries are much more tightly regulated than are your industries. As I've briefly mentioned in a previous comment, Canada really is more of a socialist country with a market framework. The skeletal infrastructure of our economy is based on market economics, but we flesh that out with quite a heavy load (comparative to America) of social regulations that protect consumers from power asymmetry that arises from market failure, e.g., information asymmetry, natural monopolies,etc..

    Many of these regulations are restrictive enough such that a company may consider that an investment in complying with such regulations would not really be worth it for a shot at the comparatively smaller marketplace. Since American companies design products and their respective distribution plans with American regulations in mind, it would take a significant investment to create another roll-out plan for the Canadian marketplace. We only have 30-odd million people, 1/10 of the American population, and our buying power for non-essential items is generally lower because of the way our consumption taxes are structured*.

    On the one hand, we don't get many of the new and sparkly fancy gadgets right away. But that's okay, I'm pretty patient for the most part. It's not that big of a deal. Companies big and successful enough will eventually bring their products over the border. On the other hand, we as consumers and taxpayers are protected from many of the perils that arise from market failure. The biggest recent example is the global financial crisis. While many global banks and companies required bailouts, our financial institutions continued to post modest profits and showed a remarkable ability to quickly recover.

    So yeah, there are many barriers to entry into the Canadian marketplace, mostly because of our traditional approach towards market economics that's more skewed towards the socialist side. But even though we may not get the latest cool gadgets or the cheapest deals, we're very well protected from many potential disasters that result from market failure. I wouldn't really call this a fault. I'm a patient guy. I can wait 3 more months for that iPad, or another 6 months for that HTC phone. Small price to pay, in my book.

    * It's worth noting that our minimum wage is higher than in America, the last time I checked. The general minimum wage is $10.25 an hour in Ontario, and the average is over $9 across Canada (with only 2 provinces falling below $8.50). However, there are a few factors that influence buying power. The first is that non-essential items are almost always taxed higher throughout Canada. For example, groceries, utilities, etc. are exempt from the federal consumption tax. Alcoh

  22. If at first you don't succeed... by Xelios · · Score: 2, Insightful

    One of the most disgusting things about this situation is that assholes like Harper can just keep introducing DMCA-style laws over and over again. Didn't make it through the legislature? Too much public opposition? No problem! We'll give it 6 months then we'll just start all over again. Eventually they will succeed in sneaking it through, and once it's through it's pretty much there for good.

    Sometimes I just hate the world we live in.

    --
    Murphey's fighting Occam, and we're in the stands.