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Steve Jobs Says PC Folks' World Is Slipping Away

Posted by kdawson on from the freedom-from-porn dept.

theodp writes "Provoked by an iPad ad promising a 'revolution,' Valleywag's Ryan Tate fired off a late-night missive to Steve Jobs. Jobs responded, and the two engaged in an after-midnight e-mail debate over lockdown, Cocoa vs. Flash, battery life, and whether 'freedom from porn' is a bug or a feature. 'The times they are a changin',' quipped Jobs, 'and some traditional PC folks feel like their world is slipping away. It is.' Tate was unswayed by the Apple CEO's reality distortion field, but did come away impressed by Jobs' willingness to spar one-on-one over his beliefs — at two in the morning on a weekend."

27 of 1,067 comments (clear)

  1. Sounds to me... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Sounds to me like Jobs just got trolled hard. 10/10 for Ryan Tate.

    1. Re:Sounds to me... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Seriously, there is one fantastic quote here from Steve Jobs that he replied to someone who *dared* to criticize him:

      what have you done that's so great? Do you create anything, or just criticize others work and belittle their motivations?

      What a complete asshole who thinks he's so much better than everyone else.

    2. Re:Sounds to me... by node+3 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Seriously, there is one fantastic quote here from Steve Jobs that he replied to someone who *dared* to criticize him:

      what have you done that's so great? Do you create anything, or just criticize others work and belittle their motivations?

      What a complete asshole who thinks he's so much better than everyone else.

      His point was that talk is cheap, what's important is what you've managed to do. See the critic's criticism from Ratatouille for elaboration.

      Of course this is Slashdot, the very definition of all talk and no action, so...

    3. Re:Sounds to me... by westlake · · Score: 5, Insightful
      It was a low blow ... he seems to forget that he got his good stuff from Xerox, and then got a real operating system from BSD.

      Recognizing "the good stuff" when you see it is rare. Transforming ideas into marketable products rarer still.

    4. Re:Sounds to me... by somersault · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The unique thing that Apple did was actually bring design into the world of computing, it doesn't matter whether the designs were "new" or not (aside from the fact that there is very little new in the world of fashion and art either).

      I think it's good that other companies are being forced to put some effort into UI design and styling to stop Apple pulling ahead. I don't like Apple much these days but they certainly are good for the market.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    5. Re:Sounds to me... by somersault · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Okay, so I've decided to feed the troll.

      WTF is it that allows some of the most argumentative assholes on the web just overlook the one simple fact that Apple is really shitty at putting together a UI?

      You could at least provide some examples here btw (beyond a lame joke that has no relevance - a dial is fine for scrolling through a list, but obviously a general purpose laptop needs a more general purpose input system) if you want to distinguish yourself from those you are criticising. Apple's UI accomplishments over the years are obvious, but I guess I'll have to list a few since you are so used to a post-Apple world that you don't realise what they've done.

      They were (one of) the pioneers of graphical interfaces in the 80s, and it took until Windows 95 for Windows to come anywhere near Mac OS (but it was still awful). These days there's less space for refinement in 2D graphical interfaces, but for one thing I loved the OSX dock so much that I installed a dock in Linux - and MS must have loved it too because they modified the task bar in Win7 to function in a very dock-like fashion. Now think of how shitty MP3 players and phones were before the iPod and iPhone.

      I've never owned an iProduct, but I'd always thought that smartphone interfaces were shit. The fact that Windows Mobile was the best smartphone OS out there for a while really says something about how awful everything was (and it's still not great, but it's better), considering how unresponsive and non-finger-friendly it was (I quickly grew to simply using my fingers to interact with my touchphones even when I had a stylus right in the corner of the phone, though it was very awkward sometimes trying to hit a 2mm "ok" button with the tip of your nail). But now all the other phone makers are actually starting to get that response time and usability are important (well, they probably always knew this but since there was little competition going on they didn't put any effort into it, all of them content to wallow in mediocrity because they were raking in plenty of cash already), and that if they don't do something then they are going to disappear into obscurity.

      Apple have really driven UI design in several ways over the years. It's not being argumentative to say that, it's argumentative to try and deny it.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    6. Re:Sounds to me... by PastaLover · · Score: 5, Insightful

      His point was that talk is cheap, what's important is what you've managed to do. See the critic's criticism from Ratatouille for elaboration.

      Of course this is Slashdot, the very definition of all talk and no action, so...

      This is from the same school of thought that thinks we can't criticize what went on in Vietnam because we "haven't been there". It's just another form of the ad hominem.

    7. Re:Sounds to me... by MCSEBear · · Score: 5, Informative
      Xerox PARC was certainly responsible for many innovations, nobody can deny that. However, claims that Xerox single handedly invented the WIMP interface (Windows, Icons, Pointer, Menus) and that Apple copied that interface exactly as created by Xerox are simply incorrect.

      Englebart's NLS created the first implementation of Windows, and of using a Pointer to access Menus. The only addition made by Xerox PARC was the addition of Icons. NLS had bitmapped WYSIWYG graphics, but did not come up with the idea of using Icons to represent commands, using text based menus instead.

      Here is a bit of Alto History for you:

      The Alto was first conceptualized in 1972 in a memo written by Butler Lampson, inspired by the On-Line System (NLS) developed by Douglas Engelbart at SRI, and was designed primarily by Chuck Thacker.

      Going back farther, NLS was inspired by work done by Ivan Sutherland who created a program called Sketchpad as his Ph.D thesis.

      Sketchpad:

      is considered to be the ancestor of modern computer-aided drafting (CAD) programs as well as a major breakthrough in the development of computer graphics in general. For example, the Graphic User Interface was derived from the Sketchpad as well as modern object oriented programming. Ivan Sutherland demonstrated with it that computer graphics could be used for both artistic and technical purposes in addition to showing a novel method of human-computer interaction.

      Some video of Sketchpad in action is available online. (Jump to the four minute mark.)

      Going back still farther, Everyone I've mentioned points back to an article by Vannevar Bush published in 1945 describing an imaginary personal computer called the Memex as a huge inspiration.

      The Memex (a portmanteau of "memory" and "index", like Rolodex an earlier index portmanteau common at the time) is the name given by Vannevar Bush to the theoretical proto-hypertext computer system he proposed in his 1945 The Atlantic Monthly article As We May Think. The memex is a device in which an individual compresses and stores all of their books, records, and communications which is then mechanized so that it may be consulted with exceeding speed and flexibility. A document can be given a simple numerical code that allows the user to access it after dialing the number combination. Documents are also able to be edited in real-time. This process makes annotation fast and simple. The memex is an enlarged intimate supplement to one's memory.

      To sum things up...

      Ivan Sutherland's Sketchpad was inspired by Vannevar Bush's idea of the Memex.

      Douglas Engelbart at SRI was inspired by Sutherland's Sketchpad when he created NLS.

      Xerox was inspired by NLS when they created Alto.

      Apple was inspired by Alto when they created Lisa and Macintosh.

      None of these was a direct copy of the other. Learn some history, and STAY OFF MY LAWN!

      (BTW - Neither Alto nor Macintosh were written in an object oriented programming language.)

    8. Re:Sounds to me... by BasilBrush · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Apple still forces you to resize windows from the lower-right corner.

      And the cost of being able to resize from any edge in Ubuntu for example? The need to have a fugly border all the way around every window, which on the one hand consumes display real estate, whilst still being narrow enough that it proves hard for some users to be able to grab easily.

      Forcing the user to do things Steve's way is not a benefit to the user.

      Limited numbers of geeks like to customize stuff. For most functionality for the vast majority of users it's better for the designer to make a reasonable decision. Ref: The Paradox of Choice.

      In terms of learning curve, their interfaces are slightly ahead. In terms of productivity, their interfaces are years behind.

      Your abstract opinion. I'd argue that people are most productive on well designed UIs, and Apples UIs are way ahead of anything Linux has.

      They took NeXTStep's dock and ruined its defaults for prettiness instead of muscle memory, for example.

      That's probably a fair point (not that I ever actually experienced NeXT myself.) And the reason is Fitt's Law. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitts's_law

      And you have to move the mouse farther (and on a large display, actually refocus your eyes) to use the single menu bar.

      And there you are wrong. A menu at the edge of the screen is easier (more productive) to use. Again because of Fitt's law. Plus it also is more economic on screen real estate.

      And until OSX, Apple didn't even have minimize/maximize, instead using the same multifinder approach they've been using (annoyingly) for years.

      i.e. It doesn't work like Windows. And Linux copied the Windows functionality. The paradigm in Mac OS is not to run applications full screen - instead of maximizing, the zoom button only increases the size of a window's height or width until the scroll bar is no longer needed (or the extent of the screen is hit.) Any extra growth of a window beyond that takes up screen real estate without revealing any more of the document. It's a waste.

      You are used to Windows and/or Linux, and you assume that it's the right way to do things. When the real issue is that it's just the way that you are used to things being done. That doesn't mean it's the best way.

  2. Freedom from porn. by kentrel · · Score: 5, Funny

    Sorry Steve. The PC had me at "Hello boys"

    1. Re:Freedom from porn. by boarder8925 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think that O'Brien's reversal of the motto is more appropriate for Apple: SLAVERY IS FREEDOM. By giving up the right to make "grander" or "higher-level" choices, the user gains the perception that his device will be taken care of for him as far as its software is concerned. By voluntarily becoming a slave to Apple's App Store-iPhone OS ecosystem, the user gains peace of mind, and he gets to say he uses an iDevice to boot.

      --
      Keep your eyes to the sky.
  3. Steve held his own... by pdboddy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Hehe, I will say that in the last image of the email exchange, Steve Jobs really zinged Tate.

    --
    Julie Moult is an idiot.
    1. Re:Steve held his own... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Steve Jobs still seems like a dick.

      Steve: "So what if I come off as dickish? What've *you* done to change the world that gives you license to criticize me?"

      Following people are allowed to criticize Jobs: Nobody.

      Among people you might think would be allowed to criticize Jobs, here's why they can't:

      Bill Gates: Windows is useless. The PC is over.
      Linus Torvald: Haha. Exactly what's your market share again?
      God: Who is this God? Even if he existed, what has he developed for computers? Nothing? Moving on.
      Anyone not computer related: YOUR ACHIEVEMENTS ARE BUNK.

  4. haha by timmarhy · · Score: 5, Interesting
    steve gets a little market share and it goes to his head.

    here in the real world, he hasn't hardly made a dent in personal computing. I'd admit he has cornered the wanky new toy gadget market, that's about it.

    --
    If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
    1. Re:haha by OrangeCatholic · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What Jobs is saying, is that he's finally found a way to reach the masses of computer noobs that Mac has been aiming for all along. The problem with the original Macs is that they required someone to actually use a computer.

      Now that he's turned computers into toys, he can finally get "Grandma." But this doesn't really change anything in the computer world.

      It's something to brag about for sure, on a marketing level. On a features level, he succeeds only by not having them. Kind of like how McDonald's succeeds by not having a steak dinner.

    2. Re:haha by michaelhood · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What Jobs is saying, is that he's finally found a way to reach the masses of computer noobs that Mac has been aiming for all along. The problem with the original Macs is that they required someone to actually use a computer.

      Now that he's turned computers into toys, he can finally get "Grandma." But this doesn't really change anything in the computer world.

      It's something to brag about for sure, on a marketing level. On a features level, he succeeds only by not having them. Kind of like how McDonald's succeeds by not having a steak dinner.

      I agree.. and yet you can't even boot, for the first time, a 3G iPad without connecting it to a computer with iTunes. WTH were they thinking with that?

    3. Re:haha by asdfghjklqwertyuiop · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And an openable hood.

    4. Re:haha by mlts · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The problem is that "something different" may not be good.

      Obligatory car analogy: It would be like trading in your 10 year old car for a new one that looks cool and is comfortable, but is completely autopiloted, and only lets you out at certain stops. Businesses have to apply to the car maker so the car would stop at their brick and mortar store. And without warning, this can be taken away, so if someone used to stop at a Target, they wouldn't have that option tomorrow and only get Wal-Marts. Continuing the analogy, someone patches the ECM with a steering wheel to allow manual control, but the next year's cars always come with protection against that.

      People trading their computers in for what are effectively game consoles means that they are trading their freedom to run what they want, when they want for an environment locked down and managed by someone else who can do anything they please.

      My question is: Do we want to go this route of sacrificing openness for ease of use? Yes, viruses and Trojans are a nuisance, but do we want to trade our relatively open computers for what would essentially be terminals, locked to some for-profit corporation's motives and future? For me, it is a no-brainer. I will keep my computer, and my phone will be on an open platform. If Android phones become unrootable or impossible to put custom ROMs on, I'll move to the Nokia N900 and encourage others to follow.

      Do we want all our computers to be like PS3s where at any time, functionality can disappear at a moment's notice like the "other OS", and there would not be a single thing we can do about it? I'm sure the usual antagonists of open computing would love a wholesale move to a locked down platform, but is that where we want to take computing as we know it? Do we want to move to a computing model where what we buy, we are only permitted access to whatever the company allows on a whim? Yes, PS3s have no virus or spyware problems, but we are trading freedom for security here, and in the end, we will end up with neither.

    5. Re:haha by macs4all · · Score: 5, Informative

      Enough metaphors. If you don't know how to use a computer, Apple is for you. If you know how, you don't need the crap that they're trying to sell you

      As an embedded developer for the past 30 years, and an Apple user since 1976, I can assure you that your statement is utter rubbish.

      I use Macs because I don't WANT to fuck around inside my computer. I got all that out of my system about 20 years ago with my Apple ][s, which lived perpetually with their lids off, so that I could tinker.

      Now, I'd prefer my computers to be as APPLIANCE-LIKE as possible. Not because I "don't know how"; but rather, because I have better things to do. Apple (mostly) achieves that goal. I guess I can understand why others don't feel like I do, which is more than I can say for most of the people commenting here.

      But don't ever mistake "don't want to" with "don't know how".

  5. Try this one... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Go out, buy nothing but an iPad and tell me how good your computing experience is 12 months from now.

    No cheating. Not a single transaction on a single machine that isn't an iPad.

    I dare you.

    1. Re:Try this one... by Macrat · · Score: 5, Funny

      myself I still make do with a parallel port printer.

      Did the nursing home forget to give you your meds again?

    2. Re:Try this one... by boarder8925 · · Score: 5, Funny

      How are you going to get the thing to print?

      http://matrisciano.posterous.com/how-to-print-from-an-ipad-6

      --
      Keep your eyes to the sky.
  6. The article is just a troller by joeflies · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This guy just wrapped up all the common complaints that Adobe and the non-Apple customers want you to believe what's wrong with iPad, and sends off a profanity laced alcohol induced email exchange to see if he can out wit Steve Jobs.

    I'd say that Steve stayed pretty much on message with what he's been always saying, even without his PR department to filter out his intent. And the blogger just looks like, well, a troll.

  7. Re:Benefits by cowscows · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Nobody would ever spend $100 on a fancy chef's knife when they could spend $40 and get a pocket knife that's not only got a blade to cut things, but also a screwdriver, a bottle opener, a tiny saw, and some tweezers.

    Except that many people are plenty happy to spend their money on something that is designed to do particular tasks well, even if it can't do everything that a similar product can do.

    --

    One time I threw a brick at a duck.

  8. Re:Insomnia and stupidity by nacturation · · Score: 5, Funny

    Jobs' empire is falling down around him. All hail FOSS, Linux, Android, and no more closed-source.

    It is, after all, the 10th anniversary of the year of Linux on the desktop.

    --
    Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
  9. Re:From: "PC Folk" by nacturation · · Score: 5, Funny

    sqrt(-1), Whoosh

    Well played. It's the all new iWhoosh.

    --
    Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
  10. Re:What the fuck is wrong with you people? by lacoronus · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Not only do I have the right to not buy iPads or iAnything, I also have the right to tell others why they should not buy them.

    This whole "if you don't like them, don't buy them, but for God's sake, don't tell anyone about your opinion" is pure BS. After all, if Apple and their supporters take the right to tell me why the iPad is superior to other products (that they presumably haven't bought), I should be able to do the same. I don't buy Microsoft Office, and I also tell people why using native Office formats is bad. I won't buy an iPad, and I'll tell people why.