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NASA's Phoenix Mars Lander Killed By Ice
coondoggie writes "NASA officially ended its Phoenix Mars Lander operation today after a new image of the machine showed severe ice damage to its solar panels, and repeated attempts to contact the spacecraft had failed. 'Apparent changes in the shadows cast by the lander are consistent with predictions of how Phoenix could be damaged by harsh winter conditions. It was anticipated that the weight of a carbon-dioxide ice buildup could bend or break the lander's solar panels. [Michael Mellon of the University of Colorado] calculated hundreds of pounds of ice probably coated the lander in mid-winter.'"
Destroying one of our rovers is a hostile act!
If they had used RTG it could have functioned through the winter.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
mods, ice this troll
Those guys are pretty much everywhere!!!
Mod me down, I shall become more off-topic than you could possibly imagine.
In the science of cold, solid CO2 has had the colloquial name of dry ice for as long as I can remember. Saying "CO2 ice" gets the meaning across perfectly that you mean solid CO2.
In this context, it forms in the same way as water ice does here in winter conditions, it's just a different molecule.
Remember that the lander was not meant to last through the Martian winter, and in fact was only tasked with a three month long mission. It lasted five months, which was longer than expected. The newer rovers are supposed to be able to survive for much longer, but this mission accomplished all that it was supposed to.
Umm... Even on our rather aqueous planet, where the only CO2 ice is either synthetic or located in seriously inhospitable places, the term "dry ice" has been in common use for ages.
On a substantially drier and colder planet, it seems even more appropriate...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice#Non-water_ice
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volatiles
Enjoy learning something new.
Filming was set to begin on another James Cameron movie and they had to clear out the Mars studio. Failure of the lander was the plausible story concocted to allow for the timely cessation of the project.
Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
At first I thought the troll mod was appropriate, but then I thought of all the people who are not familiar with the environment on Mars who might read the first part of the summary / article and think that "ice" refers to water ice, and I then realised that yes, Mikkeles has a point. At least call it dry ice.
Perhaps "Phoenix" was not the best name for this project.
Proverbs 21:19
Phoenix Mars Snowplower
The Phoenix will rise from the...well, not ashes, but dendritic crystals perhaps.
Umm... Even on our rather aqueous planet, where the only CO2 ice is either synthetic or located in seriously inhospitable places [...]
Just out of curiosity, is there a place on earth where there is naturally-ocurring dry ice? A Google search comes up empty.
This ain't rocket surgery.
The Illustrious Council of Elders has declared today a day of celebration. K'breel, Speaker for the Council, spake thus:
"Despite the propaganda reports to the contrary, what we killed a year ago remains dead and frozen, crushed beneath a mountain of toxic dihydrogen monoxide. The perverse pendulosity of its plumb bob waves no more!
Some say this war will end in fire, others in ice.
Reporters' gelsacs know my ire;
they are those who went with fire.
We now confirm this blue death twice,
Our gelsacs engorged with delight,
We say that for destruction ice,
Not only might,
But did, suffice!"
When the Martian Poet Laureate reported a striking similarity between the recent press release and an ancient transmission from the blue world, K'Breel had the Poet Laureate's gelsacs bobbed, frosted, and then bitten.
Just a crazy idea, couldn't have they put defrost wires on the panels? I don't know what the battery capacity is, I'm just wondering if it would have been possible...
if the panels are lowered, just heat them enough so the ice will just slide to the ground.
I've got better things to do tonight than die.
"dihydrogen monoxide"
Please contact K'breel and get an update - this rover was assaulted with carbon dioxide.
Or was it another tribe???
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
I know it's not the same lander, but i still think this xkcd is somewhat appropriate.
This Space Intentionally Left Blank
Probably not, unless it's in very small quantities. Atmospheric concentration is pretty low, and either way, at 1 bar it doesn't freeze until about -78C. I don't think there are any natural places on Earth that cold.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Carbon_dioxide_pressure-temperature_phase_diagram.svg
That suggests you are going to need some serious pressure before you can solidify it at Earth-natural temperature ranges.
The Council wishes to correct earlier reports: no toxic compounds were strewn across the battlefield; the ice was environmentally-sound carbon dioxide, as commonly found in snow.
When Junior Reporter 54550 hastily reported on the Council's statement, his gelsacs were frostbitten without being bobbed. Ow, Ow, Ow!
Umm... Even on our rather aqueous planet, where the only CO2 ice is either synthetic or located in seriously inhospitable places [...]
Just out of curiosity, is there a place on earth where there is naturally-ocurring dry ice? A Google search comes up empty.
Apparently it freezes at -78.5 degrees C which is uncommon but not impossible on Earth.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
Frozen CO2 as "ice" makes as much sense as frozen iron as "ice".
Actually, it makes as much sense as frozen water as "ice". Anyone who thinks otherwise is simply not as fluent in the English language as they could be. Someone who isn't as familiar with the language is likely to try to puzzle out nonexistent rules because they aren't familiar with the linguistic conventions that apply in the case at hand. But those who are familiar with how the language is used know that "ice" is a word that applies to certain cases of solids without regard to their chemical composition. Indeed, the word "ice" long predates the knowledge that water ice composed of H2O, or that dry ice is composed of CO2. To assert that "ice" means "solid H2O" shows vast ignorance of the historical usage of the word.
"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
Next time, send Wall-E and a cockroach.
Astronomers refer to lots of things in their solid state as "ice", and almost always refer to what you would call "ice" as "water ice". And it makes plenty of sense.
Thank you. Will you be here all night?
(and for the few and far that know not the original: i think it is exquisite also)
Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I've tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.
Robert Frost
"Kill 'em all and let Root sort 'em out"
Yes there is. Those temperatures have been observed on the south pole. (Read a report about a team that did stay “overnight” [= over winter]) And that doesn’t even include the windchill effect. Which can make it feel like a horrible -140C. A temperature that literally smacks you in the face so hard you fall over backwards. A temperature that lets your breath crackle and freeze before it lands on the floor. A temperature where pissing in the snow may make you impotent trough freezing the inside of your penis all the way. ;)
Yes, there you might find some dry ice... (e.g. the one that you just did breath out.)
But good luck finding it in nothing but endless planes of real actual ice.
Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
and either way, at 1 bar it doesn't freeze until about -78C. I don't think there are any natural places on Earth that cold.
Actually it's been down to -89C in Antarctica, so -78C is well within the extreme. But you go find it first, I'll stay inside by the fire long before that...
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
is NASA paying the martian authorities $1000 for littering, or is the fine different there?
Wind velocity has no effect on actual temperature. Wind chill was originally meant to indicate how long it will take your skin to freeze in sub-freezing temps. It's supposed to be a time measurement, not temperature.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
The windchill effect is basically a made up term that is _supposed_ to tell you how likely the surrounding atmosphere is to give you frostbite, though no one can agree on a decent standard that works well. It is pointless trying to apply it to freezing rates of any substance (notice how ice (basically) always freezes at 0, whatever the windchill?).
But those who are familiar with how the language is used know that "ice" is a word that applies to certain cases of solids without regard to their chemical composition.
That's what I told the judge. I asked her if she wanted ice in her drink - she didn't specify h2o ice.
Honestly... ice means h2o ice. I cannot think of any time anyone would use the word ice (alone without adjectives) to mean anything else, save for completely unrelated slang. Educate me....
The other problem I imagine you'd have is that the CO2 in the atmosphere is moving. Those very cold parts of the earth tend to also be very windy, and like how a flowing river can see temperatures below 0C and not freeze, I would imagine CO2 would have a hard time freezing out of the atmosphere while blowing around at high speeds.
Pure speculation on my part though.
Perhaps Pheonix owed someone some money...
Ok, I just found a page with waaaaaaaaay too much information, but I'll give you the short brief. First by the lower pressure at the poles and higher elevation of the coldest measurement stations, you might not pass the freezing point at all, it seems right on the border. Secondly, because there's so little CO2 in our athmosphere the sublimation effect is much stronger than the freezing effect, dry ice won't last even if held below the freezing point.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
I cannot think of any time anyone would use the word ice (alone without adjectives) to mean anything else, save for completely unrelated slang. Educate me....
I can't think of any situation on Earth where "ice" would be used to mean anything but water ice, since everything else requires such otherworldly conditions. NASA scientists are a bunch of space cadets. Speak English not Martian!
Hintedy hint. :)
But seriously, it's not like they didn't specify at any point in the article that they meant CO2 ice. If you've ever heard the term "Martian icecaps", then you've heard ice used to mean not-water ice (even though there is some there, but we didn't always know that).
The enemies of Democracy are
The story is missing the bigger picture, this only confirms the fact that there is water on mars!
Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. You have a gift for exaggeration, but a winter at the South Pole isn't nearly as dramatic as you make it.
http://theglobalguy.com/world-travels/antarctica/the-300-club
It's fascinating to watch NASA begin to really explore a place like Mars that has a dynamic environment. The Moon is mostly changeless (except for Earth's shadow periodically swinging by, and the occasional tiny meteorite). Planetary orbits are dynamic at only the subatomic (eg. solar wind) scale, except for the rare encounter with space junk. But Mars is a real planet, with weather and lots of energetic events lots of the time.
It's not just far away that makes it hard. It's being so close to the Earth in having a dynamic atmosphere and possibly even surface conditions that makes it hard.
And that is why we do it: not because it's easy, but because it's hard. Doing it makes us better, and shows how good we are. Go NASA!
--
make install -not war
Once it rises from the ashes (ice) next spring, the name will fit!
Yeah right. I bet next you'll try to convince me chemists use "salt" to refer to more than just NaCl.
My webcomic
I don't know offhand; but, looking at its phase diagram, it struck me that there is probably some lurking somewhere dark and cold in the very deep ocean, or possibly at a few PPM among the normal snow in the coldest terrestrial regions. I know of nowhere where it has ever been observed in any quantity, outside of manufactured environments.
Maybe, lurking somewhere, but probably not. The bigger issue is saturation levels. Solid CO2 at the ocean depths would be far higher in "CO2'" than the ocean water. Thus, it would be entirely soluble, and would be absorbed by the seawater.
Solid CO2 is far, FAR higher in CO2 than any air or water around. Due to that, it would quickly sublime or dissolve. There's really nowhere on earth you could find naturally occurring dry ice.
Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
I can't think of any situation on Earth where "ice" would be used to mean anything but water ice,
Seriously? You've never heard of "dry ice" before? You haven't heard of methamphetamines referred to as "ice"? Sounds like you have limited experience with the world.
... and then they built the supercollider.
It's DRY ICE. The common name for frozen CO2.
Geez... Get with the terminology, Coondooger!
.
- aqk
F U
That's sth i don't like about /. at all, too. Posts about news in science seldom link to the original article/source.
If there's ice dosen't this confirm that there is most definitely water.
because there's so little CO2 in our athmosphere the sublimation effect is much stronger than the freezing effect, dry ice won't last even if held below the freezing point.
What do you mean by that? In order for a phase transition to occur, there has to be some change, either in temperature, pressure or concentration. If the conditions are such that a solid CO2 phase is dictated, you can be sure that it will "last"...
The vapor pressure of 'dry' CO2 ice is larger than the partial fraction of gaseous CO2 in our atmosphere. That means that it will sublimate, even if it's below the freezing point. You have to go far below the freezing point, until you find the temperature where the vapor pressure is lower than the partial fraction.
This is why water ice will sublimate in very cold, very dry air. If the humidity is low enough, a blanket of snow will slowly disappear, even at -20 C. You can see that in the Midwest every winter.
Genocide Man -- Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass murder can be hilarious.
Sounds like you have limited experience with sarcasm. ;)
The enemies of Democracy are
Yep, I half-knew that while writing the above comment. I wasn’t exactly sure. But since the non-windchill temperature still is below that dry ice point... :)
Thank you for reminding me.
Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
It’s not coming from me, but right from the report/blog. (A pretty cool read btw.... if I only could find it again...)
Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
Although I'm betting that cost alone was a sufficient driver of the decision. Why spend the extra money to use RTG when solar is all you need? I'm all in favor of using nuclear power when it's called for, but I'll never understand this "nuclear uber alles" viewpoint that some people seem to have.
Astronomers refer to lots of things in their solid state as "ice", and almost always refer to what you would call "ice" as "water ice". And it makes plenty of sense.
Well astronomers also tend to refer to anything higher than helium on periodic table as "metallic"...
Don't forget about "metallic" hydrogen... so anything above OR below helium? Silly astronomers.
Hopefully they will learn from this, in hopes that the next gen of these rovers have the capability to set themselves up for a shutdown
with minimal damage or the possibility for a wake up from a dormant state, i am not sure if winter has passed, but now the ice has melted and the sun is shining on those panels...it would have been great to have it wake up and start all over again.....!