Warner Bros. Accused of Pirating Anti-Pirating Tech

psycho12345 writes "German firm Medien Patent Verwaltung claims that in 2003, it revealed a new kind of anti-piracy technology to Warner Bros. that marks films with specific codes so pirated copies can be traced back to their theaters of origin. But like a great, hilariously ironic DRM Ouroborus, the company claims that Warner began using the system throughout Europe in 2004 but hasn't actually paid a dime for it."

Comments

Do as I say---

[Darth Sdlavrot]

not as I do.

Re:Do as I say---

[WrongSizeGlass]

not as I do.

Indeed. Like most other entities that try to force everyone else to "play by their rules" or "see things their way", their own rules don't apply to them. This is just like that gaming company that was using someone else's DRM-crack in their own game. I call shenanigans!

Re:Do as I say---

[mcgrew]

Like Sony "stealing" GPL code for it's XCP music CD rootkit malware. These lying theives are all alike, it seems.

Re:Do as I say---

[Golddess]

That's all well and good, except no where in TFA does it state they were using it anywhere before they learned of it in 2003*.

To correct your analogy, it'd be like Ted looking at OMG DRM Pawnies Organizer X from this other company, thinking "hey, this is pretty good", and then using it without licensing it.

*Actually, TFA doesn't say much of anything. Medien Patent Verwaltung filed suit against WB, but they listed one of WB's patents as the infringing patent, and now they will be refiling with the proper patent listed. So we don't really know at this time if they really are infringing on a patent of Medien Patent Verwaltung's.

Re:Do as I say---

[commodore64_love]

Well that's how feudalism works - one set of laws for the serfs and another set for the masters. We need to go back to the ideals of the revolution, where everyone was treated equally under the law. WB should be fined several million dollars.

Re:Do as I say---

[Shakrai]

We need to go back to the ideals of the revolution, where everyone was treated equally under the law. WB's executives should be tarred and feathered.

Fixed that for you :)

Re:Do as I say---

[Anonymous Coward]

Well that's how feudalism works - one set of laws for the serfs and another set for the masters. We need to go back to the ideals of the revolution, where everyone was treated equally under the law. WB should be fined several million dollars.

Close, but not quite. Warner Brothers should be abolished because no abstract entity should have the rights and privileges of being a human being if it cannot also be punished in the same way (including imprisonment and death).

Re:Do as I say---

[newcastlejon]

I thought they were supposed to be first against the wall?!

Re:Do as I say---

[ekgringo]

Actually, using the MPAA's example, wouldn't it be more like $100k per person per viewing?

Re:Do as I say---

[Hurricane78]

There are only four big companies left in music business. And a colleague of mine personally worked with the bosses of all of them, when they were still five.

And according to him, they actually ARE lying cocaine-snoring hooker-addicted thieves all alike. I mean for a fact.
I would have no trouble stating that in public, as here it’s not illegal to state mere facts. I can easily prove them to be facts. :)

Ouroborus

[Hinhule]

http://ayakofansubs.info/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/1267146748914.jpg :)

Novel?

[Hognoxious]

I'm not sure this is anything new. Map makers include fake streets. I believe a similar technique - making seemingly identical but subtly different documents - has been used in counter-spying to find the source of leaks.

Re:Novel?

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

I'm assuming that the particular math used to encode the fingerprint in such a way that it doesn't die a horrible death the second it hits a lossy codec(which is pretty much assured before it hits the intertubes) or somebody get ahold of two distinct leaks and diffs them is probably substantially more novel than the basic idea of "add artificial differences to discover leaks".

Whether it is, or ought to be, patentable is not something I can really comment on; but I would strongly suspect that the actual method being employed is considerably different than historical examples in the same broad conceptual vein.

Re:Novel?

[WrongSizeGlass]

I believe a similar technique - making seemingly identical but subtly different documents - has been used in counter-spying to find the source of leaks.

Serial numbers are printed on currency & bonds, and appear on labels on most types of consumer electronics, automobiles, etc. This is the same basic concept. Uniquely identifying something isn't new or nefarious. I'm pretty sure all color printers 'hide' something in each print, and I wouldn't be surprised if digital cameras did too.

Re:Novel?

[Cee]

I'm pretty sure all color printers 'hide' something in each print, and I wouldn't be surprised if digital cameras did too.

Yes, they do (well, actually just laser color printers).

Re:Novel?

[Ephemeriis]

I'm somewhat surprised this is allowed. Making a mistake is one thing, but purposely falsifying information that someone is paying you for (perhaps even specifically for the accuracy!) is another.

Is this one of those things that is actually allowed by law or just unenforceable because they can claim it was a mistake?

I assume you're referring to the maps thing...

This is generally done with street maps, where the information should be pretty much identical from one manufacturer to the next. If you can steal your competition's map, you save yourself all the time and effort of actually going out and looking up all the information. And everyone is going to show the same streets in the same places, so how do you prove that they stole your map data?

The answer is that you put in some crappy little 1-block dead-end streets here and there.

Nobody lives on those streets, because they don't exist, so you don't have to worry about incorrect address information showing up. You don't have to worry about giving people bad directions because they're dead-end streets, so nobody will route down them. Nobody is going to be hurt by these little streets in any way.

But if you suspect that your competition stole some map information from you, you just check to see if there's a Fake Street in Chicago. If the street is there, in the same place as on your maps, you know they stole the map data from you.

Re:Novel?

[silentcoder]

Camera's do indeed, the exif data for one - which by default contains the camera's serial number. Some add other formats of metadata as well. Generally this is not particularly nefarious in intent - the reason for exif data is to allow photographers to recheck what settings they had used for a photo at a later date, and allow the picture to be identifiable to the photographer for credit/copyright purposes.
But it can be dangerous - political activist taking picture of police beating subject for example, may well not be aware that his camera's serial code (and depending setup - his name and contact details ) are embedded in the picture. Even just the serial code can be enough to trace you - if you paid with a credit card - it's all on record somewhere who owns the phone that took the picture.

For this reason there exists software (shipped for example with paranoid linux) that can strip exif data, either entirely or selectively for dangerous fields automatically. Or you can just do it on specific points using exiftool or one of the many gui's that interact with it.
But suffice to say - if you don't KNOW that they do it, you won't know to strip out the information and the same information that is an incredibly useful photographers tool in one setting can be a very dangerous privacy or even safety risk in another.

Re:Novel?

[benjymous]

You don't have to worry about giving people bad directions because they're dead-end streets, so nobody will route down them. Nobody is going to be hurt by these little streets in any way.

"Take the third left"?

Is that including the road on the left that's on the map, but doesn't exist in reality.

Re:Novel?

[JonJ]

How would your GPS suggest that when the street does not exist and is a dead end? You wouldn't try to find the street, it does not exist, and the GPS would never route you through a dead end.

Re:Novel?

[Scrameustache]

The answer is that you put in some crappy little 1-block dead-end streets here and there.

There's sometimes entire towns that only exist on paper.

Someone even wrote a book about that.

Re:Novel?

[Anonymous Coward]

Easy fix: only add fake dead end streets to read dead end streets, so the fake dead end only comes into play if your directions tell you to go to the end of a dead end street and continue on.

I Hope they sue

[AndGodSed]

Really, I hope this turns into one of those messy public court snafu's that really grab public attention and cause a real raucus.

This can only benefit from all the publicity it can generate.

Re:I Hope they sue

[WrongSizeGlass]

Really, I hope this turns into one of those messy public court snafu's that really grab public attention and cause a real raucus.

This can only benefit from all the publicity it can generate.

If it goes to court WB will probably have to open up their claims & records on piracy, counterfeiting, etc to examination and scrutiny. This could be a valuable crack in their "pandora's box" of exaggerated statistics.

Patents?

[Anonymous Coward]

What exactly are they 'pirating'? I see no mention that they are using any copyrighted material without permission. All I see is that they are supposedly using PATENTED technology (software). In Europe. Isn't the slashdot rallying cry 'you can't patent software in Europe and anywhere that lets you patent software is retarded'? So what is the story?

Re:Patents?

[coofercat]

TFA isn't overly precise about what's going on. However, they do say that Warner is being sued for using their software without paying for it (ie. 'stealing' someone's 'IP', not giving back to the creators etc - basically the same stuff that the music industry says about file sharers). This looks the same as someone making a copy of Windows and using it without paying MS (or whatever).

Slightly confusingly, there's mention of patent infringement. This suggests that Warner went along to Medien and saw what they were up to. They then left, and made the exact same thing themselves and started using that. If this is what's actually happening, then it's a straight patent lawsuit, with Medien looking for license fees for Warner to use their ideas.

It may not be a software patent per-se - it is possible to patent some software in (at least some parts of) Europe - generally, it has to be something embedded - an "enabler" of a bigger invention, if you like. (You can't patent Windows in Europe, but you might be able to patent an intelligent flow valve with embedded PIC, for example).

Only one thing to do

[muckracer]

Development of a anti-pirating, anti-pirating technology, so the watcher's can watch the watcher's.

Re:Only one thing to do

[Akardam]

And what precisely of the watcher's is the watcher's can going to watch?

I'm so confused...

And before anyone says anything...

[JayJay.br]

YES, this IS ironic. Look it up.

Old anti-piracy message on DVDs

[Hoplite3]

(Cue loud music, set chapter to be un-skippable)

Hey, WB:

You wouldn't snatch a purse.

You wouldn't steal a car.

So don't don't illedally download ... er, steal others intellectual property.

Re:Old anti-piracy message on DVDs

[Improv]

You wouldn't steal a handbag
You wouldn't steal a car
You wouldn't steal a baby
You wouldn't steal a policeman, and then steal his helmet
You wouldn't go to the toilet in his helmet, and then send it to the policeman's grieving widow
And then steal it again!

Re:Old anti-piracy message on DVDs

[VShael]

I hope we all get the reference, but just in case...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALZZx1xmAzg

Techdirt article on lawsuit

[Lando]

http://techdirt.com/articles/20100521/1529489535.shtml

Has a couple of interesting tidbits.

Translation

[codeButcher]

"Medien Patent Verwaltung" translates to the English "Media Patent Administration". They don't even concatenate it to one word, as one would expect from normal German grammar - looks like it came straight out of translate.google.com.

Now I wonder what the German word for "patent troll" would be.... Hmmm, the German wikipedia article has various translations, I like "Patentparasit" best.

Re:Watermarking!=Piracy

[SharpFang]

This is novel in a way that the watermark is not spatial but temporal - it only minimally affects the surface of the image, but instead as the image changes over time, the watermark does too, containing much more information than the few points it presents per frame, and being much less obtrusive. Rather original and novel approach.

Not fair

[elrous0]

Warner Brothers and other studios paid good money for those Congressmen, it's hardly fair that they should turn around and make laws that could be used *against* the studios. I may be old, but I remember a time when Congress used to respect its bribes.