German Publishers Want Censorship Talks With Apple

An anonymous reader writes "The association of German magazine publishers has sent a letter to Steve Jobs (Google translation; German original here) demanding talks about censorship by Apple. The move draws attention to growing concerns about freedom of the press when a single unelected commercial entity has worldwide control over what gets published for the iPhone and, especially, the iPad." While the magazine publishers may rightly be concerned about private control of a platform that many of them are counting on for their long-term salvation, the German state is at the very least ambivalent about the subject of censorship. This is the country that has banned Wikileaks, sought a ban on violent games, and voted to censor child porn (only to have the president kill the ban as unconstituitonal).

Comments

The internet

[thenextstevejobs]

I'd like to posit that Apple doesn't have complete control over what content is available for the iPhone/iPad, because it has a web browser.

Still, I'd be happy to see an alternative to the App Store or some compromise on their approval process.

Re:The internet

[Mr. Slippery]

Furthermore, censorship is usually the domain of the government, not corporations

No, it is not, and I do wish propertarians would cease this abuse of language. To censor is "to examine in order to suppress or delete anything considered objectionable...; also : to suppress or delete as objectionable". It does not matter whether it is the government or a private agency doing the suppression, it is still censorship.

It may be the case that government censorship is more intrusive and threatening to liberty than private censorship, but that does not change the fact that both are members of the same species.

I just don't get it.

[bennomatic]

The iPad is a *new* device, and anything published on it is available there in addition to all the other devices and media through which publication was previously possible. How could this be a censorship issue worthy of government attention?

Is it censorship? In the broadest sense, yes. But do I want the federal gov't meddling with this? Any federal gov't? It sets a scary precedent.

Re:I just don't get it.

[Shoe Puppet]

Is it censorship? In the broadest sense, yes. But do I want the federal gov't meddling with this? Any federal gov't? It sets a scary precedent.

I don't see the problem. It's not like it were about letting the government censor instead of apple, it's about exactly the opposite: The government preventing censorship, for a change.

Different morals

[cheesybagel]

Germans usually tolerate porn and other adult content more than in the US. In contrast vandalism, violence, nazism, or other cultist movements are censored in Germany.

Re:Different morals

[jeti]

We just don't think of nudity as porn.

Re:Different morals

[N0Man74]

Some of us Americans don't either... though we seemed to be in a minority.

Re:Different morals

[Dr. Hok]

Germans usually tolerate porn and other adult content more than in the US.

True. For instance, I wonder why nobody complains about the beeps that replace all four-letter words (except "Lord") on American TV. (You are aware that the people aren't actually saying "beep", right?) I'd call that censorship. I can live with people saying "fuck" on TV every once in a while.

On the other hand, I find it hard to live with the knowledge that kids are being abused in order to produce child porn. And I wouldn't (necessarily) call the attempt to dry out the child porn market censorship. I mean, seriously, does it impede your right to free speech if you are not allowed to produce and circulate child porn?

Re:Different morals

[grumbel]

Violent video games can be rated, indexed and completly banned in Germany. When they just get rated, an 18+ sticker gets onto the box and sales to minors is forbidden (somewhat similar to M rating). When they get indexed, it is also forbidden to do advertisment or public sales of those games (i.e. no more buying them at amazon.de), you are still allowed in theory to purcase them under the counter, in practice however Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo won't even publish those games in Germany, so you have to import them (similar to the effects of AO rating). The last stage is completly banning a game, it doesn't happen often, but it does happen (i.e. Dead Rising), then even the sale is forbidden.

Another difference is that the rating system is enforced by the state, while in the US its just the cooperation that do the enforcement of ESRB stuff.

I thought we got rid of them...

[Anonymous Coward]

"This is the country that has banned Wikileaks"
Damn Nazis.

It's Called A Browser

[jjoelc]

Build a better website, and you won't need an iPhone app.

Re:It's Called A Browser

[jjoelc]

Just, for the love of god, don't build it in Flash! ;-)

And?

[bidule]

"A single unelected commercial entity has worldwide control over what gets published for" the PS3.

"A single unelected commercial entity has worldwide control over what gets published for" the Wii.

Are they pushing Apple to do the same as Sony and Nintendo, or are they pushing for special privileges?

What's stopping them from simply publishing their content as web pages?
Why would they want special applications?

Re:And?

[Shoe Puppet]

While having the games market under control of these corporations is unfortunate, having media censored by one is actually quite bad for society. Of course, there are still classical newspapers and the internet and thus Apple cannot effectively censor -- but especially if the iPad becomes more widespread, they will be able to influence what people can get easily. I imagine people might choose to ignore a media source because there is no app for it.

Also, this appears to be a distribution channel people actually are willing to pay for, making access to it even more important for publishers.

Not exactly

[AffidavitDonda]

You can publish nearly everything, but in some cases you will have to accept that shops can only sell it to adults. So most game companies decide to remove some of the more violent scenes for easier publishing and a larger amount of potential customers. So I wouldn't call it exactly "censorship". (But this may be a matter of definition)

Why then can I access it?

[AffidavitDonda]

Just checked that out, I have no problems to access Wikileaks here in Germany. actual headline: "... could become as important a journalistic tool as the Freedom of Information Act. — Time Magazine

New record on summary mistakes?

[Menchi]

This is the country that has banned Wikileaks

Except they didn't. wikileaks.de was disabled because the guy who own this domain (and nothing else related to wikileaks) didn't pay his bills. He was also involved in some fraud so his ISP didn't want to do business with him any more. They informed him 3 or 4 month before killing his account, he just forgot about it.

sought a ban on violent games

Good thing the word sought is there. The conservative hardliners have been talking about it for 20 years now and so far not much has happened. Preemptive censorship by the publishers is far worse.

and voted to censor child porn (only to have the president kill the ban as unconstituitonal).

Except he didn't, he signed this law. It's just that everybody (including half the people who voted for it) hoped he wouldn't because a few month after this law was voted on the pirate party gained 2% in the federal election (5% is the minimum to get seats, which they did get in some regions). The last thing any of the established parties want is yet another party to worry about so internet topics suddenly because important. The ministry of justice has instructed the police to treat this law as the most unimportant one of all (i.e. not enforce it) and the parliament is actively working on replacing it with a law that does not allow filtering. All in all, awesome summary.

Re:New record on summary mistakes?

[Dr. Hok]

and voted to censor child porn (only to have the president kill the ban as unconstituitonal).

Except he didn't, he signed this law. It's just that everybody (including half the people who voted for it) hoped he wouldn't because a few month after this law was voted on the pirate party gained 2% in the federal election (5% is the minimum to get seats, which they did get in some regions). The last thing any of the established parties want is yet another party to worry about so internet topics suddenly because important. The ministry of justice has instructed the police to treat this law as the most unimportant one of all (i.e. not enforce it) and the parliament is actively working on replacing it with a law that does not allow filtering.

The success of the German Pirate Party may be one of the reasons, but I guess the major reason is that the law gives the BKA (German federal police) the right to decide which site is to be blocked. Which is unconstitutional. The job of the police is to enforce the law, not to decide what is lawful. So everybody is scared that the law is torn to pieces by the constitutional court.

BTW: The German Pirate Party has its own problems now. Their most famous member (Jörg Tauss, former social democrat and member of parliament) has just been convicted of possessing child porn (no surprise he is against censorship). Oh, ex-member: he left the party in order "to keep damage away from it", but I suspect that sufficient damage has been done already.

Re:New record on summary mistakes?

[datorum]

>> sought a ban on violent games >Good thing the word sought is there. The conservative hardliners have been talking about it for 20 years now and so far not much has happened. > Preemptive censorship by the publishers is far worse. let me guess why? I am pretty fucking sick of "available in the EU except Germany", "worldwide (except Germany)", etc. on steam, impulse, etc. This happens for games with different themes like Star Wars: Battlefront, Company of Heroes (which as far as I can remember, doesn't have any swastikas in it)... well, maybe these "preemptive censorship" is due to the fact that the put a "ban" (no commercials etc. allowed) on Dark Forces and several other titles ages ago? The content-delivery services seem to be very cautious about what you can buy from German soil...

It's the association of magazine publishers

[Colin Smith]

Not the German state.

Get it now?

i.e. They want a slice.
 

Definitely a new record on summary mistakes.

[w4rl5ck]

Well yes, we *have* problems with censorship and freedom in germany (as probably any other country has these days), but this summary is so wrong it hurts really bad...

As mentioned in comments before:

- the internet censorship stuff has not been banned by President Köhler, he just did not sign immediately. He did later, but after an election and a shift in government partys, the law has been stopped by the new government

- the "violent video" thing has been discussed by many hardliners, but there never has been a broad support for that

- wikileaks was not "banned" or anything. The stupid domain owners just did not take the proper steps to keep the domain

So, one will find other, definitely even worse crimes against humanity in Germany, but this list is, well... sort of "outdated and overcome".

Oh, and on topic: the publishers have some valid points here, and we might see some regulations for Apple in Germany. Porn is not illegal here, mind you ;)

The iPad is l33t, anyway.

Re:Quit Whining

[bhagwad]

I'm well aware of apple's TOS restrictions...but I'll ignore them anyway. And if I ever get taken to court, I have faith in the judiciary at some level upholding my right to do what I want with my device as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else.

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