Iridium Pushes Ahead Satellite Project

oxide7 writes "Iridium (IRDM) continues its push into the market for satellite data and telemetry services, as it announced the company that would build its second generation of satellites. Iridium's old network of 66 satellites was designed for voice calls; the new satellites will also be able to handle data more efficiently, and include cameras as well. The company also plans to share the satellite platforms with some scientists for use in studying the Earth."

Comments

Skynet

[TheKidWho]

This is it, once google connects to this network, we will never be able to turn it off once it becomes sentient...

Whose to say it hasn't and slyly guided the engineers to push this technology as part of its plan...

Cameras??

[spectrokid]

Just one little sentence. They will include cameras as well. WTF?? Privatised spying? Own your own weather-sat? Delivering Google-earth quality pictures (or better) is not only going to take one hell of a lens, but also a hefty infrastructure on the ground. They must have a solid business case. This isn't like putting a "camera" on a 50€ cellphone.

Re:Cameras??

[f3rret]

This is Iridium we're talking about, they don't worry about details like "buisiness plans". When they first rolled out their service their business plan depended on the fact it would eventualy be as pervasive as cellular phones and that sure worked out fine.

Re:Cameras??

[spectrokid]

The answer: For commercial, government and scientific organizations, Iridium NEXT will also offer new business and earth observation opportunities through hosted secondary payloads on the 66 Iridium NEXT satellite network.

Re:Cameras??

[Barsamin]

Sure they couldn't recoup their costs... but they made it up in volume!

Re:Cameras??

[LWATCDR]

Actually You may be surprised. Yes it will not be you average point and shoot but these are in a pretty low orbit. You get a professional medium format body with a good 40 MP CCD for around$10,000 combine sensor that with good optics and space rate it and the entire package would probably run under $100,000. Of course you may want IR as well as visual range but the overall cost will still be manageable.
How good can you get? I am not sure. Probably not as good as the best Google earth pictures but maybe two zoom levels higher. To be honest yes they are all guesses because I am not an expert on photography.

Is to the business case. Yes military already use commercial imaging all the time. With this system the delay between and event and getting imagery would be extremely short.
Think about Haiti or the other natural disasters. Pretty good high resolution imagery could be available in under an hour in almost any case.
Weather monitoring is another option. We could bet much better coverage of the polar regions with these.

So yea I can see some real use

Re:Cameras??

[tyldis]

You probably do not realize that the images Google Earth uses are largely collected by private satellites?
GeoEye is one of them, for instance. DigitalGlobe operates several as well.

As for hefty infrastructure on the ground; there are companies selling ground station services. I work for one of them and it doesn't cost you much to buy a time slot to communicate with your satellite. Heck, we offer the complete process, you only need TCP/IP (or ISDN if you are conservative). The launch does not have to be too expensive if you piggyback on the Indian launchers. But of course, you have to build it first :)

And Iridium has a decent ground network for something like this (we actually happen to host some of it too).

Re:Cameras??

[default luser]

Iridium Satellite LLC is actually profitable, unlike the original Iridium LLC which went bankrupt promptly after launching the system and sold it to Iridium Satellite for pennies on the dollar.

Yeah, funny how it gets a lot easier to run the business when Motorola assumes the 5 billion of debt and sells it to you for $25 million. The success of Iridium Satellite LLC is subsidized by the ashes of the original company.

Proper management made the difference after the sale removed the debt, but even if the company had been properly managed from the beginning, it still would have folded. Even 300k subscribers is not going to pay off that 5 billion monster, not when they're only netting about 14 million a year (when they turn a profit, which they did not for 2010).

I wish them well milking what they can from their cheap windfall. But I laugh at the thought that they might build another multi-billion dollar constellation based off such a pitiful business plan. Yes, their subscribers are GROWING, but only because they can offer such insanely cheap rates without having to pay-off the painful debt.

As soon as they invest in their own new constellation, they will either have to conjure millions of new customers out of thin air, or they will have to raise prices (this will send customers running, so I'm going to go with option one). But since the DoD contracts are already pretty saturated (seriously, does the military need a contract for more than 20k users?), the customer growth would have to come from the commercial or consumer sector. Either way, they are doomed in this approach, and once again, investors are going to sat the losses and subsidize a successful network.

Re:Can Slashvertisements get any more obvious?!

[SeaFox]

Many business magazines include ticker symbols for the companies they mention in articles, even if the article is a serious piece that is critical of the company. So I think this assumption of yours that a ticker symbol is some sort of flag that something is an advertisement is plainly wrong.

Re:Can Slashvertisements get any more obvious?!

[Rusty KB]

A slashvertisement for *who*? Raise you hand if you can afford a satellite!

Business Plan?

[backslashdot]

I really hope they solved the 3 issues with their previous attempt: 1. Cost per minute of usage 2. Need for huge antennas (adds to bulk/weight) 3. Massive battery required (makes the phone bulky/heavier).

Re:Business Plan?

[Biogenesis]

As a suburban inhabitant who's used to small mobile phones it's natural for you to assume that satellite phone size is a major issue, but for people who would regularly require satellite phones they only need to have a better cost:performance* ratio than remote communication alternatives, such as HF radio.

*performance in this context would be a subjective measure which includes factors such as reliability, size, weight etc.

Re:Business Plan?

[eudean]

Satellite communications is expensive (and naturally the market is smaller than terrestrial phones so even at the same cost the price per subscriber would need to be greater). Higher data rates require greater SNR and therefore larger antennas. Receivers also need to consume more power to acquire and process a low SNR signal. Perhaps they can improve these things incrementally, but they're kind of fundamental to the nature of their service.

Re:Business Plan?

[15Bit]

This is true, but they still need a large user-base to pay for launching a constellation of satellites into space. This was the problem with Iridium v1 - it cost a fortune to setup and not enough people used it because microwave mobile networks were cheaper.

The same problem still exists - the mobiles we all have and love are a better solution for the majority of the market, and that won't change with Iridium v2. Iridium appeals to users who need connectivity everywhere on the planet, and maybe those wanting extra privacy arising from not going via conventional networks. But thats not a lot of people in the overall scheme of things, especially when you are talking about putting up a load of satellites. It surprises me that they have enough users to be able to afford this upgrade.

Re:Business Plan?

[Kjella]

Iridium appeals to users who need connectivity everywhere on the planet,

And needs it in a fairly mobile and battery-efficient matter in between cell phones and a big fixed installation. Part of Iridium's problem was from what I understood that you need quite many satellites for coverage, the wikipedia page says 66, and being in LEO they also need a lot of boosting to stay in orbit. If you're doing something like setting up a remote science station, my impression was that you'd rather throw up a huge dish and talk directly to a GEO satellite because in total it's cheaper. Around the base you can have your own wifi/(femto-)cell/walkie-talkie setup with small handsets. Ultimately Iridium is for a very small market of mobilse users in very remote areas.

Re:Business Plan?

[Alioth]

Indeed, the market is minuscule. According to the BBC, Iridium only has around 360K subscribers. With an investment of close to $3bn when all is said and done for a system to last until 2030 (at best 20 years if they launched the satellites today) means each subscriber is going to have to pay around $420 a year just to cover the cost of the infrastructure - this is before any of the ongoing costs of running the system, staffing the company, profits, etc. Would any Iridium subscriber be paying less than $3000 per year for their service, with probably very little actual talk time or data transferred - certainly orders of magnitude less than, say, someone's iPhone contract. (Anyone here have an Iridium phone? How much does it cost?)

While this is expensive compared to normal mobile phones, it's probably a good deal if you're in the middle of nowhere all the time.

Re:Business Plan?

[ickleberry]

A lot of the traffic on the new network (and current one) is from remote transceiver units rather than satellite phones. of course the new phones will be a lot smaller. there are satellite phones out there now that don't look a whole lot dissimilar to a normal smartphone but of course if it improves the performance I would rather carry around one that has a large antenna.

The antenna isn't really an issue for me or anyone who really needs these phones. If it meant it would be more reliable, send faster data or better quality calls they could put a 3ft antenna on it and I wouldnt care

Re:Business Plan?

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

On the plus side, they should be able to absolutely cash in on the heavily subsidized "US puppet warlords in dusty hellholes with dubious cell coverage who need to chat with their CIA handlers" market...

Re:Business Plan?

[ptbarnett]

On the plus side, they should be able to absolutely cash in on the heavily subsidized "US puppet warlords in dusty hellholes with dubious cell coverage who need to chat with their CIA handlers" market...

Iridium satellites were about to be de-orbited, because no one stepped up to buy it even at the fire-sale price. Suddenly, a previously unknown company came out of nowhere to buy Iridium, and it already had a long-term contract with the US government that effectively guaranteed their long-term operating expenses.

When Globalstar protested because the contract was held, the GAO put a hold on the contract. The Pentagon had the hold removed, citing national security. The GAO investigation apparently ended after the 100-day limit with no action.

http://www.spaceandtech.com/digest/sd2001-01/sd2001-01-009.shtml

Re:Business Plan?

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

Not to mention, of course, that said previously unknown company set up shop in the fine town of McLean, Virginia, which is within spitting distance of Langley, and a classic location for those who have business in Washington; but don't want to deal with actually having to live there. Neighbors include SAIC and Booz Allen Hamilton.

They do have civilian customers of course; but you don't get the sense that the place was set up primarily for their benefit.

Re:Business Plan?

[zulux]

A friend borrowed my Iridium phone and had to use their emergency services (911) - the call center that they were hooked up to was in his words "frighteningly competent." ...

Rambling Iridium thoughts:

I've enjoyed the service myself - with the phone and and a Psion Revo (It has a native serial port), I can telnet to any of my severs while in the woods. Strangely, it let's me relax knowing that I can help out my users.

At around 2400 baud - don't use SSH. Oh... Screen is your friend as it does cut out enough.

If you use a PC - it come with some proxy software and a proxy server that will remove/compress images, but any computer with a serial port can use it as a modem. Sadly, modern pdas lack serial ports, but old Posion Revos/5-series are cheap, last a long time, and have awesome keyboards and work well.

I have an older Motorola Iridium phone, so I don't know if this setup would work with the more modern phones.

some more on Iridium

[AffidavitDonda]

bbc has a nice article on that too: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science_and_environment/10212836.stm

Re:Can Slashvertisements get any more obvious?!

[Anonymous Coward]

The first OSCAR ham radio satellite was paid for by collecting spare change from thousands ham radio operators around the planet, so there are small groups who have flown satellites.

Planning for bankruptcy?

[confused one]

I could have sworn launching the first set of satellites bankrupted the original Iridium owner. Not that that's ever stopped anyone.

New Iridium satellites ?

[ctrl-alt-canc]

I hope they will be less reflective. Their flares cause troubles to astronomers.

Re:New Iridium satellites ?

[Trogre]

Are you kidding? Iridium flares are one of the coolest and most predictable transient events in the night sky that can be seen with the naked eye.

Re:New Iridium satellites ?

[The Grim Reefer2]

I was wondering the same, as well as if they would be a predictive as the current ones. My 6 YO enjoys seeing them so we check the schedule at heavens-above.com regularly for bright ones at "reasonable" times.

Not true.

[Aldric]

Iridium are the best duplex LEO network (better for low power applications than GEO) and the only serious competition to Inmarsat. Inmarsat would not have made nearly as much progress if they had no decent competition - GlobalStar are simplex and Orbcomm are as abysmally useless are always.

Re:Not true.

[jandrese]

The problem is that Iridium data is a joke. 2400bps raw symbol rate, and you get even less than that, plus the handoffs can be touchy as one satellite passes over the horizon and another eeks into view. Inmarsat3 does 56kbps, and BGAN can go up into the hundreds of kbps.

Iridium does have a latency advantage though, especially in mobile-to-mobile applications. It is, as you noted, suitable for low power or small form factor solutions as well, since Inmarsat needs an antenna the size of a large dinner plate while Iridium can get by with a slightly oversized cell phone aerial. Additionally, unless you buy a bulky mobile antenna, Inmarsat requires you to carefully point the antenna before you can use it, Iridium is happy as long as it is pointed vaguely up.

If you need to transmit very small amounts of data in a small form factor, then Iridium is for you, but that is a decidedly niche market, especially when you start to consider the per-bit costs.

Privatised spying..

[wiredog]

Ever heard of GeoEye?

Re:Can Slashvertisements get any more obvious?!

[Alioth]

...and it's really annoying. If people really want to look at the stock price it's not hard to look it up. The worst articles are the ones that are written like:

"Steve Ballmer of Microsoft (MSFT, people, news) today challenged Novell (NOVL, people news) to a duel today after Novell announced it was to use Solaris (SUNW, people, news) to power its new IBM (IBM, people, news) Intel (INTL, people, news) based servers"

Re:Can Slashvertisements get any more obvious?!

[Gilmoure]

Porn-Sat 1?

20/20 hindsight

[DerekLyons]

When they first rolled out their service their business plan depended on the fact it would eventualy be as pervasive as cellular phones and that sure worked out fine.

You have to keep in mind that when planning started for these services (and Iridium wasn't the only one) in the mid 1990's, it wasn't at all clear that cell phone services would expand as fast and penetrate as deeply as they ended up doing. Back then, cell phones were high tech toys with coverage largely limited to major urban areas.
 
As an aside, one thing few people realize is that the roots of the current commercial space 'boom' lie in that era. It was widely believed that there would be multiple satellite providers, and that with each satellite network requiring between fifty and a hundred birds, that there would be a large number of launches both for initial provisioning and ongoing replacement. In the eyes of the alt.space community that meant an opportunity for a large market and a big chance to undercut the 'big boys'. They believed that by purchasing launches the satellite providers would end up underwriting the development of the boosters, providing a shortcut to commercial manned space.

Re:Can Slashvertisements get any more obvious?!

[rakslice]

"Insightful"? Here's some insight: For instance, Google Finance lets me easily find three companies with names starting with Iridium, and since the article doesn't give the full name of the company, Iridium Communications Inc., the ticker symbol easily tells me which one they're talking about.

Aside: When the original Iridium went bankrupt, Iridium Satellite LLC bought them out for $25 million, and it's that latter company that's now called Iridium Communications Inc. Getting all that?