America Versus the UFO Hacker

Rob writes "Gary McKinnon, still suffering from Asperger's syndrome, depression, anxiety, and panic attacks, has one last chance to avoid extradition from the UK to the US to face charges of hacking into NASA and Pentagon computers in search of information on UFOs. Will the new UK government keep its word and help him avoid a savage punishment? The New Statesman has a survey of the history and McKinnon's prospects."

Comments

Aliens!

[InsertWittyNameHere]

Just the fact that the US is pushing so hard for this makes people believe that the US government has UFOs and aliens.

Re:Aliens!

[Tekfactory]

New Mexico has an Alien problem, Arizona will profile and interrogate any little green men, or Grays they find wandering around, and believe to be in the country illegally.

Re:Aliens!

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

I'd go with the "embarrassment/reprisal" hypothesis, myself.

The DoD's networks are supposed to be all secure and advanced and stuff. Getting hacked by a single sad-case foreign national, acting without support, makes them look pathetic.

When made to look pathetic, those with power generally seek reprisal against their enemies.

Frankly, the DoD was lucky to have been hacked by him. He is largely harmless, and watching how he got in was probably instructive, to some degree. They really ought to spend less time hounding him, and more time thinking about the fact that certain other hackers are much less harmless, and substantially less likely to be turned over for a stay in PMITA prison by their host governments...

Re:Aliens!

[flaming error]

I'm not sure Arizona thought this through - the little buggers are expensive to deport.

Re:Aliens!

[blair1q]

That's funny. That's just what they said about you.

Re:Aliens!

[AltairDusk]

Frankly, the DoD was lucky to have been hacked by him. He is largely harmless, and watching how he got in was probably instructive, to some degree. They really ought to spend less time hounding him, and more time thinking about the fact that certain other hackers are much less harmless, and substantially less likely to be turned over for a stay in PMITA prison by their host governments...

Someone breaks into your house but doesn't take anything of value. You would think that's ok because the intrusion was largely harmless?

The fact is he hacked into government servers he had no business accessing. We can argue motives and harm done all we want but it doesn't change the fact a crime was committed.

Re:Aliens!

[AGMW]

The fact is he hacked into government servers he had no business accessing. We can argue motives and harm done all we want but it doesn't change the fact a crime was committed.

... and as I understand it, he's admitted to it. What he doesn't deserve is some show trial and 70+ years in a US jail for it because he's apparently a threat to the US's security. Did I read somewhere that one of the passwords he managed to crack was ... "password"? There ya go ... now I've told the world what one of the US Security Services favourite passwords is so I guess I can look forward to an extraordinary rendition trip somewhere scenic for a water-boarding holiday!

Re:Aliens!

[brainiac ghost1991]

Well... seeing as you lot haven't bothered ratifying our side of the extradition treaties (and so won't give us someone if we asked) why should we bother with our side. Also, the punishment you're proposing is excessive compared to the punishment he'd get over here!

Re:Aliens!

[gnasher719]

According to TFA, they are saying that the break-in "incurred costs of $800,000."

Which is a blatant lie. His break-in wasn't what caused the cost. What caused the cost was that when some British idiot managed to break into military computers looking for information about UFOs, the military figured out that these computers were wide open to attacks by real criminals, and had to spend $800,000 to secure them. That was money that needed to be spent anyway, and they are lucky that the first person to break in was looking for UFOs and not for something else.

The guys problem is that he made the US military look like idiots, and they don't like that. That is his real crime, showing to the world that the US military IT is run by a bunch of muppets, and even though there is no official law against that, it is one of the worst crimes he could have committed.

Re:Aliens!

[LingNoi]

If the UK had prosecuted him there (which is what should have happened), then none of this would be necessary.

This isn't true. The US has been pushing hard to extradite him for years. They DON'T want him to go to jail in the UK which is what McKinnon WANTS. The guy would rather go to jail in the UK then one of your rape prisons for decades, what a surprise!

Re:Aliens!

[redscare2k4]

Someone breaks into your house but doesn't take anything of value. You would think that's ok because the intrusion was largely harmless?

The fact is he hacked into government servers he had no business accessing. We can argue motives and harm done all we want but it doesn't change the fact a crime was committed.

If someone breaks into your house cos you left the door and windows wide open and steals nothing, any sane person would consider himself lucky and from that day on remember to close the goddam doors.

Still suffering ???

[capnchicken]

Isn't that like saying still suffering from AIDS, Herpes, Diabetes, or Lou Gehrig's Disease?

This is why he has to be tried over here

[Tekfactory]

He embarassed people, and made 'threats'

From TFA
McKinnon was surprised at how easy it was to enter the US networks. There were no firewalls and many government staff did not even have passwords. He left notes as he went, pointing out security deficiencies. One said: "US foreign policy is akin to government-sponsored terrorism these days? It was not a mistake that there was a huge security stand-down on September 11 last year . . . I am SOLO. I will continue to disrupt at the highest levels."

Re:This is why he has to be tried over here

[Anonymous Coward]

This maybe true BUT the people who left these networks in such a terrible state should be tried for more serious crimes.

The US Govt should have given him a medal for exposing such terrible security on their systems. I'll bet they paid lots of taxpayer $$$ to $400 an hour so called Security consultants to setup systems like this?
These are the guys who should be in the dock.

In reality, I don't want him anywhere near a plane bound for the US UNTIL the US Govt ratified the extradition treaty with the UK. This would allow people to be extradited from the US to the UK on the same terms as he is being extradited the other way.
Oh silly me, it is probably unconstitutional. No evidence is needed to be presented to a Judge in the UK. The US Gov't just have tp promise that they have the evidence.
This clearly breaks 'dur process' laws in the US.
So until this mess is sorted out he should stay put!

Just my 2p worth on the matter.

NASA and the Pentagon?!?

[wbav]

Everyone knows it is the NSA that keeps that data. Just ask your friendly local NSA operative, is there alien life. I always get, "We decline to comment on that subject at this time. All hail Kang."

Re:NASA and the Pentagon?!?

[Brett Buck]

Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos!

That always makes me suspicious

[Gramie2]

He suffers from anxiety, depression and panic attacks? Exactly what people claim when they are suing for ridiculous amounts of money. Utterly impossible to prove or disprove, and plenty of doctors will probably accept a nice fee to testify either way.

I'm not saying that he doesn't suffer from these, but hearing it makes me roll my eyes and wonder if it's not just a sympathy act.

Re:That always makes me suspicious

[Jeng]

I guess its just not PC to state that he is a complete raving lunatic who believes in aliens.

Not that you need to be a complete raving lunatic to believe in aliens mind you, but that is basically his defense.

Re:That always makes me suspicious

[wondafucka]

He suffers from anxiety, depression and panic attacks? Exactly what people claim when they are suing for ridiculous amounts of money. Utterly impossible to prove or disprove, and plenty of doctors will probably accept a nice fee to testify either way.

I'm not saying that he doesn't suffer from these, but hearing it makes me roll my eyes and wonder if it's not just a sympathy act.

As someone who suffers from anxiety, depression, and panic attacks, I am glad you have educated me that there are people who are predisposed to believe that we are making it all up. Although I am well aware that people have problems accepting situations that have not happened to them personally, I will add this one to the list.

Re:That always makes me suspicious

[elrous0]

Calm down, buddy. He's not saying *YOU* are making it up, only that this guy *might* be (a reasonable suspicion, considering he has a very strong personal interest in making himself sound as mentally ill as possible, to avoid extradition).

Re:That always makes me suspicious

[ShadowRangerRIT]

Please, please don't talk about Asperger's as if it is some sort of code word for "smart." Or talk about it like we're persecuted when we're treated no differently than any other somewhat socially inept individual. It doesn't make anything better, and it makes people view everyone with Asperger's as narcissistic and/or whiny. When your view of the world differs from 90+% of humanity, and it's noticeable in day-to-day conversation, you're going to be viewed as different. Be thankful it's being referred to as a syndrome now, not a disorder. Everything is a syndrome nowadays, and as long as they don't insist on "curing" me, they can call it whatever they like.

Little sympathy

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm afraid that I have little sympathy for this guy. I do not think that breaking into computer systems is harmless play. If he'd actually gone to trial back when he was indicted, instead of fighting it for all these years, he's have gotten a minor sentence, very likely no prison time at all, and almost certainly would be out now.
I have no reason to believe these flamboyant claims that he's likely to be put away for a prison term of "seventy years;" this is bizarre hyperbole that has nothing to do with the way sentencing is actually done in the US.

Re:Little sympathy

[selven]

If he'd actually gone to trial back when he was indicted, instead of fighting it for all these years, he's have gotten a minor sentence, very likely no prison time at all, and almost certainly would be out now.

Well of course, the authorities don't like people fighting back against them and tend to kick them down extra hard if they manage to get them, to encourage others to take it lying down. Standing up to this standard bullying tactic is brave, and should be lauded regardless of whether you happen to agree with the crime in question.

Re:Little sympathy

[malkavian]

You entirely miss the point.
He's not saying he should get off without charge; he's saying he should be tried in the UK for a criminal offense committed in the UK, and go to a UK jail as a UK citizen. What the US is trying to do is extradite him (supposedly something done for very serious crimes), and try him for possible terror charges.
This is not what the extradition agreements were meant to be for, and the UK populace is pretty up in arms about it as the last (Labour government) rolled over and drooled at the chance to sign an extradition treaty without the US signing up to its side (it still hasn't, sensibly enough). So, we currently have a treaty whereby a relatively minor crime can have the US extraditing UK citizens, with nothing reciprocal (if a US citizen ran riot through the UK defence computers in this fashion, the UK could NOT extradite them).

In theory, he could be charged with terror offences, and banged up for an awful long time. He probably wouldn't be, but hey.. What he's really fighting for is to be tried in his home country, and the country where the offence was committed (he was misusing a computer while based in the UK, which carries quite a penalty; easily sufficient to cover the term you think is sensible for him to be banged up for).

Most hilarious summary ever

[PCM2]

Gary McKinnon's treatment at the hands of the bloodthirsty, subhuman U.S. government officials will be savage, just SAVAGE. Who will save this kind, generous, upstanding man of peace from the vicious fate he faces if this extradition is allowed to go through? See him quiver and tremble as he suffers the throes of Aspergers Syndrome! Can you not see how depressed and anxious the threat of prosecution is making him? What kind of monster would will such evil upon this defenseless man, who surly is guilty of nothing but a deep and heartfelt thirst for knowledge about our Grey brothers from the beyond?

Give me a break.

Re:Most hilarious summary ever

[elrous0]

Even by Western developed world standards the U.S. justice system is hardly "monstrous." It may be one of the last Western countries to still have the death penalty and no one is defending the egregious misdeeds of the previous administration and their waterboarding of suspected terrorists. But to call is "monstrous" is ludicrous. At the most, this guy will face some time in a federal minimum security prison. It's not like anyone is breaking out rope to hang him.

Re:Most hilarious summary ever

[Purity Of Essence]

I agree. Having the highest incarceration rate in the world is an example that all free nations should aspire to. USA #1!

Where do you get "savage punishment"???

[georgewilliamherbert]

If he's convicted he gets to go to minimum security federal jail for probably 2-4 years. How is that savage punishment?

Aspergers is neither a cause of computer hacking nor an excuse for it. "Oh, a trial or jail will traumatize him" isn't a valid reason to not put someone on trial either in the US or in England.

This guy was misguided rather than intentionally malicious, but he misguided himself into a bunch of federal felonies. Aspergers doesn't change your ability to understand legal vs illegal acts.

Re:Where do you get "savage punishment"???

[Local ID10T]

If he's convicted he gets to go to minimum security federal jail for probably 2-4 years. How is that savage punishment?

Aspergers is neither a cause of computer hacking nor an excuse for it. "Oh, a trial or jail will traumatize him" isn't a valid reason to not put someone on trial either in the US or in England.

This guy was misguided rather than intentionally malicious, but he misguided himself into a bunch of federal felonies. Aspergers doesn't change your ability to understand legal vs illegal acts.

So try him in England, where he lives, and where he was when he allegedly committed the crimes... The US Government can afford to send an attorney (or state department representative) to speak on their behalf. He can be tried and convicted and punished in the UK. There is no reason to send him to the USA.

Re:Where do you get "savage punishment"???

[PCM2]

The only problem is that the US is trying to get him to pay a fortune for damages, as if he created the vulnerability as opposed to exposing it.

If you walk into a china shop and kick over all the shelves, smashing all the china, then turn around and tell the shop owner, "These shelves should have been secured better," I'm willing to bet a jury would find you liable for damages.

Re:Where do you get "savage punishment"???

[GooberToo]

The only problem is that the US is trying to get him to pay a fortune for damages, as if he created the vulnerability as opposed to exposing it.

Any time a system is penetrated it is considered completely compromised. Addressed compromised systems demands significant damages because damage has been suffered. The simple act of gaining illegal access requires untold hours of logging, following endless procedures, rebuilding the system (usually at a temporary loss of services), ensuring compliance with current standards (which are far from brief), so on and so on. For every system he violated, shit loads of both dollars and man hours must be spent cleaning up afterwards. And this all ignores the general assessment which must follow to determine if additional, unknown systems might have been accessed and/or compromised. Basically, this is a really big fucking deal.

In short, this guy is not only a complete idiot, but he deserves serious jail time and a life time of fines. He did, after all, work hard to earn it. Since he definitely did earn it, I don't have a problem with the government handing it to him. Its what he wanted after all.

Re:Where do you get "savage punishment"???

[Vahokif]

Except the china was already broken. They fixed the vulnerability that was there before he found it, and now they're trying to get him to pay for it.

Re:Where do you get "savage punishment"???

[DaveGod]

Part of this is due to the public perception of McKinnon being that he's a "bumbling nerd", the asperger's thing merely being seen as medical confirmation.

But there's other things going on here. It's not at all about him facing some appropriate punishment, all his supporters simply want that to be decided and carried out in the UK.

His claims that he practically wandered in, left a few embarrassing messages and that's about it is widely believed. The accusations of damages are thought to be more the cost of the US putting in place security which needed to have been there anyway. The US justice system does not seem to be very highly regarded by Americans, and even allowing for the normal distrust of any foreign justice system, internationally the opinion is even lower. (Even if it is just due to the anomalies that get reported - UK papers tend to print articles about ridiculously lenient UK sentences, American media tends to report the ridiculously harsh ones, whatever, this is an observation of perception, I'm not claiming that is or isn't a fair assessment of reality).

This is amply reinforced by the US's mishandling of the situation. It seems attorneys do not do diplomacy, you say 2-4 years, but US authorities said life and that some want to see him "fry" for "the biggest computer hack of all time". Charging him as a cyber-terrorist very likely didn't help, internationally (and certainly here on /.) there's not a lot of trust for the US when the T-word comes up. The perception is that the US are all fired up up to beat up on him as hard as they possibly can because they're embarrassed and he's to be made an example of. This is fundamentally opposite to the UK sentiment towards justice.

On to domestic UK issues, there was the resentment over the one-sided (at least on paper) extradition treaty with the US. Note also when the act was committed there was no extradition treaty covering this, so the game has changed after the event, and it's widely believed that the US deliberately delayed action to take advantage of this, which as the saying goes, simply isn't cricket. There is also, especially at the time, annoyance at other countries' lack of extraditing people to the UK (ironically, it seems in practice the US has actually been throwing them over to us with vigour).

Then there's the UK government mishandling. Like the way the appeal was arrogantly and off-handedly thrown out by the disliked then-Home Secretary Jacquie Smith. This gave the papers an opportunity to have a go at her and the tired Labour government widely felt to be all too autocratic.

It's now considered a test of the new government's principles, its thumb on the pulse and its willingness to stand up to the US.

I'm not sure how much of this is the doings of his lawyer's PR efforts, but time and again the case has being striking a nerve on numerous issues and he's been on the front pages for years now. It's got to the point that if he does get extradited despite that level of support it's definitely going to seem like something is very wrong somewhere.

Re:Where do you get "savage punishment"???

[couchslug]

He acted UPON objects in the US, remotely FROM England. Therefore, the crimes were committed in the US, as they would be if he shot across the border.

Political payback

[macraig]

It's political payback for McKinnon giving the pompous U.S. government and military a well-deserved black eye.

Re:Guy says he discovered evidence of UFOs

[WilyCoder]

haven't you seen the x-files? the govt acts this way to make people believe in UFOs, when in reality, the truth is far stranger than flying metal discs and little green men.

x-files is not entertainment, it is the truth!

I want to believe!

Re:Should they make a deal

[Jeng]

Just because someone may be good at breaking in, doesn't mean he knows how to secure the systems he is entering.

They need to use him for breaking into stuff, it's what he's good at apparently.

Re:"UFO Hacker"

[DriedClexler]

No, he proved that Apple products are so freakishly different that if an advanced alien computer tried to interface with one, it will blow up in frustration.

Savage punishment

[Anonymous Coward]

Prison (which depends on violence) qualifies as a savage punishment when the criminal is non-violent. I don't need a lawyer to tell me this. Human nature says so.

Did I just claim that over half of all US prison sentences are savage? You're damn right I did.

Re:Savage punishment

[elrous0]

If this guy gets prison time, it will be in a federal lockup--not some exaggerated, fictional, ass-rape prison like "Oz."

Re:Savage punishment

[starlabs]

So you're saying people like Bernie Madoff or the louts behind the Enron debacle don't deserve prison, because they're "non-violent"? Even though they wiped out people's life savings, or worse? Just because a crime doesn't involve a physical altercation doesn't mean it doesn't warrant stiff prison penalties.

JackOfKent looks at this from a lawyer perspective

[Richard W.M. Jones]

Most of what you think you know about this case is wrong. Forget about UFOs.

Also, what Gary did is trivial, barely even worth the term "hacking" (summary: he used an off-the-shelf product called RemotelyAnywhere to access completely open internet-connected Windows desktops that had the default password set).

If you want to go back to the source legal materials, this set of articles is particularly interesting:

Part 1, Part 2, and Part 3

There is a final part coming too.

Re:He won't get extradited

[malkavian]

No, he'll just be tried in the UK (and found guilty under the Misuse of Computers act, with a bit of jail time thrown in).
Extradition for this level of offence is, quite frankly, ridiculous.
The part that is cruel is that when you extradite someone, certainly the distance to the US, it makes it FAR harder for friends, family and the support network to get face time visitation.
Removing that from someone is a huge deal, especially when they're not exactly the most stable in the first place.
The part that really gets the goat of most of the UK people is that while the last (Labour) government happily signed their side of the deal, the US conveniently forgot to sign their side (which is still waiting signature), so that the US can happily extradite UK citizens, while the reverse is not true.

But the UK is not within US jurisdiction

[DABANSHEE]

If Brits in the UK are obliged to comply with US laws then by default it means we all fall within the legal jurisdiction of every nation in the world simultaneously, regardless of where on earth we are.

Re:But the UK is not within US jurisdiction

[fredrik70]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe they're not *required* to extradite him, but if UK don't send him over, then the risk is that US will flick UK the bird next time UK wants someone extradited.

Countries also have deals where they promise to send over anyone the other country believes to have committed a crime (within reason I suppose).

That's why all british gangsters went to Spain back in the day, spain refused to extradite anyone from Spain to UK due to tensions over Gibraltar

Re:But the UK is not within US jurisdiction

[tehcyder]

but if UK don't send him over, then the risk is that US will flick UK the bird next time UK wants someone extradited.

I thought that the whole problem is the lop-sided nature of the agreement between the US and the UK, whereby we (the UK) hand over anyone the US wants, while the US never allows extradition of its own citizens?