"Ladies Night" Declared Illegal In Minnesota

aapold writes "The Minnesota Dept of Human Rights has ruled that Ladies Night bar promotions are illegal in Minnesota, as it violates gender discrimination laws. This stems from a 1994 incident where a bar patron was angered at having to pay a cover charge during such an event and filed a lawsuit."

Comments

Minnesota Dept of Human Rights?

[dspkable]

This was a human rights issue? Really? Man is it boring up there in Minnesota, and with this rule, it just got even more boring. State motto: "Are you sure you want to live in Minnesota?"

Old issue

[Locke2005]

Don't most bars already get around this by admitting anyone in a miniskirt for free?

Re:Old issue

[ducomputergeek]

It's called a kilt you insensitive clod!

Re:Old issue

[Locke2005]

And there you have it folks... Scotsmen invented kilts so they could drink for free!

Seems Fair.

[Vanderhoth]

I think it's about time someone started to reason this out.

Where I'm living it seems like there are more girls in "Boy" scouts then there are boys now. It started off with one or two families claiming it was unfair that their daughters couldn't participate and it wasn't right to have a boys only club. There wasn't enough interest from girls to have sparks, brownies or girl scouts so it was decided to allow the few girls that wanted to join in with the boys to participate. Then we had the problem that there are no female leaders and none of the mothers would chaperon for camping trips. Of course some of the parents aren't comfortable with letting their daughters go out into the woods with a couple of men and a group of boys (understandable), but we can't exclude the girls; so no camping trips for anyone. So the parents of the boys are pulling their sons out of scouts because they claim they "don't get to do anything" and the parents see it as a waste of time and money. Two of the four leaders are talking about quitting because of all the flax they're taking. We might as well just disband.

It really just seems like there can't be something for just boys anymore. I'd like to say I wish we could have seen the issues before hand and just not let girls in, but we would have been forced to eventually anyway and it does seem unfair to the girls that there isn't something to be a part of.

I'm on the line about the whole thing.

Re:Seems Fair.

[orangesquid]

I don't think artificial gender lines for clubs are a good thing. The various scouting and campfire/outdoors groups should just re-brand themselves as various types of character-building and skill-building clubs; BSA could tend to target more activities and skills boys would be interested in, while Girl Scouts could target the activities and skills girls would be interested in. Neither would discriminate, so [just stereotyping here:] tomboys who would be happier with boy-scouting could go that direction, and the less-"tough"/more-effeminate boys who would be happier with the Girl Scouts could go that way. (Again, I emphasize that those are *stereotypes*... I don't really believe the division would ideally be just like that! In fact, having boys and girls learn skills and traits traditionally associated with the opposite gender and breaking social gender role molds in the process is really neat imho.)
That being said, the chaperoning issue is still a problem, with the way our society handles gender privacy and bathroom issues (not that our system is necessarily bad, but it could probably use some improvement - see #1 for something I disagree with, and #2 for an amusing comic on that subject - I think having more unisex and family bathrooms would be preferable, with several private, individual bathrooms for every multi-person unisex one). Chaperoning could be handled more by the parents voting rather than by gender-grouping [how many intersex parents are there for the intersex children who self-identity as intersex rather than male or female? *grin*]. There are plenty of adults of both genders who treat all children with respect and would never dream of harming them, and these adults would make fine chaperones for any children, to the extent that those children and their parents are comfortable.
{:prepares self for flames:}

Re:Seems Fair.

[Monkeedude1212]

I think its unfair to force a club not to have a ladies night, and I say this as a guy who still has to pay cover.

Half the bars are racist towards one group or another, and they'll make any excuse to keep them out, the most popular of which is "Shoes". If I had a nickel for everytime someone was not let into a club because of their shoes, I could retire. Clubs are discriminatory, and if they don't let you in, they don't let you in. Its as simple as that. If the owners don't want me inside, than that means they are catering to a different crowd who probably also don't want me in there. So why would I go to a place where I'm hated. Simple as that, go find another club.

In regards to the scouts, you are right in that they just shouldn't let girls into boy scouts. Boys want to be boys, and tell the obnoxious fart and dick jokes and all the other stuff that isn't appropriate around girls. To ruin it for a dozen boys to satisfy a couple girls seems unfair.

If the girls are upset there isn't something to be a part of, perhaps they should go rally more girls to form a troop instead of trying to get into a boys only club. I don't know where people got the idea that excluding someone based on their sex is discriminatory. It's not a negative thing, it's just who its appropriate for. Likewise, I can't get a job serving at Hooters, but I'm not complaining.

Re:Seems Fair.

[medv4380]

It really just seems like there can't be something for just boys anymore.

There is and will always be one thing (besides drawing in the snow) that is only for men. See the Equal Right Amendment wiki for more other wise I'd be more of a troll then I already am.

Re:Seems Fair.

[JayRott]

I couldn't agree more. We have a "club" here that wouldn't let me in because I was wearing a flannel shirt. Chances are, I wouldn't have enjoyed my experience anyway.

Re:Seems Fair.

[Chris Burke]

If the girls are upset there isn't something to be a part of, perhaps they should go rally more girls to form a troop

Yeah, and they can call it the "Girl Scouts".

In any case, this is dumb. Hey genius, the point of Ladies' Night is to attract more ladies, which if you're a straight guy who's going to bars should obviously be viewed as a "good thing". The reason they still charge you a cover is because they don't need to lure you in with no cover charge -- that's what the ladies are for!

And if you're not straight, then that's what "Gay and Lesbian Night" is for. Is that going to be ruled discriminatory next?

Re:Seems Fair.

[HungryHobo]

Only if they charge money to straight people and don't charge gay people.

What's next?
They going to rule that "White night", where they let all the white people in for free and charge the black people, is discriminatory next?

Re:Seems Fair.

[NevarMore]

There are lots of good reasons to have gender specific clubs at all ages:
1) At younger ages boys and girls often have different developmental needs
2) These clubs expose the genders to positive role models they can directly relate to. This is becoming especiallly important in the age of single parents, you need to have kids that grow up under positive role models of both genders.
3) Most kids learn how to interact with the opposite gender quite normally all day in the real world
4) These clubs are ultimately PRIVATE. Are you willing to sacrifice their rights for unisexing?
5) Ever heard of "man caves" or "girls night out", I don't care what age you are, males and females are different and from time to time need their space to be around their own gender.

Your intentions are good, but no matter how much we want everyone to be equal we also have to embrace and make the most of our differences or we'll be stuck in some watered down dull society that never makes omlettes because its afraid of breaking eggs.

Re:Seems Fair.

[Anonymous Coward]

Two of the four leaders are talking about quitting because of all the flax they're taking.

Well, that's completely understandable. With all that flax they could make some pretty fine linen in the spare time they'll have by quitting the Scouts. It's a win-win!

Re:Seems Fair.

[Zaphod The 42nd]

You seem to have missed his point completely. He was just saying, hey, lets still have the "boys" club and the "girls" club, but just make it so that the "boys" club isn't boys only, and the "girls" club isn't girls only. The "boys" club's job would be to appeal to boys, but if a girl wanted to join, let her.

Re:Seems Fair.

[NevarMore]

No I haven't missed the point.

Have you seen the movie Fight Club, where the woman character goes to the meeting for testicular cancer?

Its a bit like that.

Re:Seems Fair.

[mentil]

They could have the boys and girls sleep in different tents. Alternatively, it could be optional, with some CYA disclaimer form that has to be signed by the parents of the children who go.
Furthermore, the implication that boys and men can't be trusted not to rape girls makes me a sad panda.

Re:Seems Fair.

[Vanderhoth]

Furthermore, the implication that boys and men can't be trusted not to rape girls makes me a sad panda.

It's funny how that is almost always the first thing to pop in to someones head. In all fairness, the girls are just as likely to want to have sex with the boys as the boys would like to have sex with the girls. We are talking about at least 10 young people with raging hormones wearing hiking boots out in the middle of the woods with only a few adults to make sure they behave. Personally from that perspective I don't think it would matter if we had women out watching the kids with us or not.

That being said, it's not that the boys and men can't be trusted, it's that there is an expectation of privacy and if something happens (E.G. Medically, Personal Issues, Tick Checks) The parents want female leaders to be available to care for their little girls. What the parents don't seem to realize is, unless some of them do it, we have no female volunteers. I don't want to go on a rant about how dumb some of these people can be so I'm going to quit while I'm ahead.

Re:Seems Fair.

[Thanshin]

I don't know where people got the idea that excluding someone based on their sex is discriminatory

Probably they got that idea from the dictionary.

You should consider buying one.

Re:Seems Fair.

[HungryHobo]

Sure private clubs should be able to set their own rules but that's seperate to the actual effect seperating the genders has on kids.

I went right through scouts in the mixed organization in my country there were also a few other scouting organizations including the girl guides and boy scouts.
Overwhelmingly I found the girls who had gone through the purely female system to be whimps. Absolute whimps, wet hens, theoretically capable but, with very few exceptions ,inclined to go to pieces at a moment notice under any kind of pressure.

The guys in the all boys organizations were if anything more annoying, very much like certain students in the local all boys school they were loutish, devoid of charm and filled with a medieval attitude towards women, convinced that women were stupid and inept.

Only in the mixed organization did people seem to have realistic attitudes about the other gender and they acted as moderators on each other.

There's nothing wrong with single gender clubs for adults but exposing kids to only one gender most of the time leaves them mildly screwed up later.

Re:Seems Fair.

[HungryHobo]

You know that history where those women started working in "mens jobs"?
Its a bit more like that.

Re:Seems Fair.

[Monkeedude1212]

Fair enough - I guess I was unclear with what I meant to portray.

I don't get why people seem to think Discrimination is always a bad thing.

Re:Seems Fair.

[AtomicOrange]

We are talking about at least 10 young people with raging hormones wearing hiking boots out in the middle of the woods with only a few adults to make sure they behave. Personally from that perspective I don't think it would matter if we had women out watching the kids with us or not.

It was always the hiking boots that did it for me too at that age. The feel of the leather, the scent of the camp dry and mink oil - Woo~! Boy, does that get my heart pumping and the hormones raging.

Re:Seems Fair.

[archmcd]

I think it's a good thing to admit women to traditionally all-male events. Nobody likes being stuck at a sausage party.

Still wondering when /. will allow women to register, comment and vote in polls.

Re:Seems Fair.

[Vanderhoth]

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with girls joining the club. What is wrong is the club can't do the things it use to / people expect because the issue is adult Women will not volunteer (even when asked) to chaperon things like camping trips, but the parents complain heavily if we exclude the girls from said events.

Re:Seems Fair.

[archmcd]

I was only joking around. In all seriousness, there are differences between men and women. (Trust me, I've seen a woman naked once. Then my mom screamed and kicked me out of the bathroom.) Even beyond biological differences, there are different ways men and women think and react to certain situations. These differences are natural, and we as a society need to stop pretending they don't exist and being afraid to acknowledge them. I know that I can't carry a child or breastfeed, and I know that women can't write their name in the snow with their own piss (at least not without getting it on their shoes). Cultural differences between men and women are the result not just of societal traditions, but also of these innate differences. It's also a proven scientific fact that women don't build muscle in the same way as men, which is why mixed-gender contact sports are a bad idea, and why certain clubs or events should remain gender specific. Even if they are forced to allow mixed-gender membership by some leftist idealist judge or politician, they should not have to change or eliminate certain parts of what they do to accommodate women.

Re:Seems Fair.

[Vanderhoth]

I kind of thought you might be joking, but I wanted to make sure I was clear on my position.

Anyway, I agree with you. I see no problem with letting Women participate in Male clubs/events and vice verse, but we shouldn't have to make special accommodations to do so. To me it seems in my situation the parents want their daughters to be treated as equals, but don't want them treated equally. The only solution is to not treat the girls like the boys, but to treat the boys like the girls.

I.E. no one gets to go camping because the girls can't go.

Re:Seems Fair.

[Uzuri]

As a woman...

I agree with you.

And that comes from the biggest tomboy in the bunch, someone who probably would have made all the boy scouts in her year in school look like the wusses they were given the opportunity. But I didn't want the opportunity. I can be what I want to be and do what I want to do without ruining the boys' chance to be boys. They need their clubhouse with "No girls allowed" tacked on the side and they should have it!

(And as an aside, ALL parents, whether your troop is integrated or not, are a royal pain in the ass anymore. You're just another babysitter. Makes me sick.)

Re:Seems Fair.

[Vanderhoth]

As a woman...

I agree with you.

And that comes from the biggest tomboy in the bunch, someone who probably would have made all the boy scouts in her year in school look like the wusses they were given the opportunity. But I didn't want the opportunity. I can be what I want to be and do what I want to do without ruining the boys' chance to be boys. They need their clubhouse with "No girls allowed" tacked on the side and they should have it!

(And as an aside, ALL parents, whether your troop is integrated or not, are a royal pain in the ass anymore. You're just another babysitter. Makes me sick.)

I am glad you agree.

Honestly the situation isn't the fault of the girls. The fault lies squarely with the parents, if even one of the mothers who wants their daughter in scouts instead of guides were to step up and go camping and/or hiking for the weekend the whole problem would be a non issue. Too bad my wife wouldn't go. She hates bugs and trees, sometimes I wonder about her.

I don't mind being a "babysitter". I get to have just as much fun as the kids. I probably learn just as much from them as I do for anyone else.

Re:Seems Fair.

[Uzuri]

"I probably learn just as much from them as I do for anyone else."

No doubt :) The kids that stick with it are usually good kids (my Dad was a troop leader for something like 12 years).

Re:Seems Fair.

[konohitowa]

Good idea, Judith. We shall fight the oppressors for your right to have babies, brother... sister, sorry.

Re:Seems Fair.

[rainmouse]

It wont be long now before this liberalist Zeitgeist allows perverts like me into women only gyms.

Re:Seems Fair.

[yukk]

It wont be long now before this liberalist Zeitgeist allows perverts like me into women only gyms.

Nah, good luck with that. We're all equal and everything, but some people are a little more equal when it comes to equality and you presumably being a sir do not qualify.

Re:Seems Fair.

[Anonymous Coward]

So you like to be around boys?

Re:Seems Fair.

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't believe anyone was stupid enough to vote you up. Every time a female has taken the BSA to court for gender discrimination has been found in favor of the BSA.

Re:Seems Fair.

[berzerke]

...I know that I can't carry a child or breastfeed...

Actually, you're wrong on the breastfeed part. It's not well known, but males have fully functional chests. The reason it's not well known is few men manage to turn them on, and the few that do, almost always by accident, hide the fact.

Re:Seems Fair.

[Anonymous Coward]

Then we had the problem that there are no female leaders and none of the mothers would chaperon for camping trips. Of course some of the parents aren't comfortable with letting their daughters go out into the woods with a couple of men and a group of boys (understandable), but we can't exclude the girls; so no camping trips for anyone.

This would have been a good time for your not-female leaders to exercise their supposed balls.

"Either trust us, get off your ass and and come with us, or accept responsibility for keeping your daughter home. Your choice. The rest of us are going camping."

Re:Seems Fair.

[OhHellWithIt]

Where I'm living it seems like there are more girls in "Boy" scouts then there are boys now.

Where do you live that the Boy Scouts allow girls?

Wow

[DaMattster]

I consider myself with more democratic and somewhat liberal tendencies but this has just gone way too far. Ladies Nite is a tradition and if some cheap bastard doesn't want to shell out a miniscule cover, let him go elsewhere.

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe he wanted to prove a point about "women's rights" to the women.

I remember years back, when all the talk was how sports clubs for men, 'the old boys network', was illegal and discriminatory, and how no sports club could ban women.

Today there are thousands of female-only fitness centres across the country.

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe he wanted to prove a point about "women's rights" to the women.

I remember years back, when all the talk was how sports clubs for men, 'the old boys network', was illegal and discriminatory, and how no sports club could ban women.

Today there are thousands of female-only fitness centres across the country.

Don't forget other things like how its illegal to have a white only scholarship, but perfectly ok to have a Racial/ethnic only scholarship, if you tried making a 'White Entertainment Television' it'd be shut down before it started but its perfectly fine to have a Black Entertainment Television, as you mentioned it's illegal to have a mens only fitness centre but perfectly fine to have a women's only fitness club. I think it was that one comment I overheard that put it best when applied to these kinds of things "Men can't say that because its sexist. But it's ok if we do because we're women."

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

The joke I heard was on the comedy channel. It was a female comedian. "Who gets to make fun of who?"
"It's actually really simple."
"If you're a White straight male you can only make fun of other White straight men."
"If you're Black you can make fun of other Blacks and White people."
"If your Hispanic you can make fun of other Hispanics and White people."
"If you're a woman you can make fun of other women and men."
"If you're gay you can make fun of other gays and straight people."
"I have a Black father, Hispanic mother and I'm lesbian so I have all my bases covered."

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

Ladies Nite is a tradition and if some cheap bastard doesn't want to shell out a miniscule cover, let him go elsewhere.

'cause we all know that you can only discriminate against women and whoever says otherwise is a misogynistic bastard.

Re:Wow

[DriedClexler]

Sorry bro ... you had plenty of time to stop the train when they were passing other laws about discrimination, and only *now* that you realize the absurdity of it all, you want the train to stop?

Yeah, it's sad that you can't see this far ahead, but that's your fault.

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

Human slavery is also a tradition. I prefer equality.

Re:Wow

[xous]

I thought "Ladies Night" was a clever device with which to attract women which in sufficient quantity (and quality) would attach male customers. The presence of said women would result in the male visitors to spend more on drinks and add value to the cover charge.

Seems like the women pay by subjecting themselves to the male company.

Re:Wow

[liquidsin]

i remember college house parties ("keggers" if you will) where they'd charge guys ten bucks at the door and let chicks in free. there was never a shortage of guys willing to pay ten bucks for access to college girls with access to kegs.

so where does this stop? we have local businesses around here that give seniors ten percent off on tuesdays, just for being old...

Re:Wow

[DriedClexler]

Oh, and just to clarify: you're saying discrimination is okay as long as it's a tradition? Um, do you not fucking realize that that's exactly the argument they used (or at least were *thinking*) when the first US discrimination laws were enacted?

Smack yourself with a cluestick -- you need it.

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

My uncle was actually one of the, if not the, first white men to attend an all black university in Mississippi.

Re:Wow

[StikyPad]

Seems like the women pay by subjecting themselves to the male company.

See, that's what they'd like you to believe. It's what (some) moms instill in us, movies tell us, and observation seems to confirm, but the truth is women are *people*, and people like attention, especially from potential mates. When they complain about attention, it's like a rich guy complaining about trying to decide what car to drive to the poor guy who's trying to find a reliable car he can afford. That's not to say they don't feel and believe what they're saying, just that they have no perspective, so you shouldn't feel too sorry for them. Don't be a prick about it, but don't sympathize with them either.

If a woman (or anyone else) doesn't want *your* attention, then just move on to the next one. That's something many guys have a hard time with -- they get hung up on one girl, because she's "special," or "the one." She may well be special, but a) getting hung up on her isn't going to win any points, it's just going to make you look like every other desperate idiot, and b) your perspective is very likely to change with experience playing the field. If you hit on lots of women and always strike out with the type of women you want to date, then you need to brush up on your social skills. Yes, they are skills, and any skill can be improved, if not mastered.

Anyway, I'm getting off subject, but all of this is to say that women are just people. They're not deities to be worshiped, but neither are they subhuman. It's true that "ladies night" may attract more women, but the long term cost is an institutionalized sense of entitlement, which is a lose/lose proposition. There's nothing worse than dealing with someone who feels entitled, regardless of their gender, and by systematically reinforcing that belief, we're actually shrinking the pool of worthwhile mates. We're making things worse for *ourselves*. Think I'm full of shit? Why are foreign dating sites so popular? Because we've created a huge pool of women in the US who believe they're God's gift to men, and a huge pool of self-loathing men who continue to reinforce that belief.

Gay bars don't have "ladies night" and yet they're often packed. Why? Obviously there's the fact that ladies night would have no effect (or an undesired effect), but there's also the reality that, in many cities, there's no alternative. They don't stop going to gay bars just because they don't get in for free. Likewise, banning ladies night for *all* clubs wouldn't result in the mass exodus of females. They would have no alternative, and they would still show up, because they *want to*. When it comes down to it, discrimination is discrimination, and tolerating it only makes us weaker. If you don't believe that, then you stopped thinking through the problem at "ladies." The people who are suing aren't the bitches; it's people who actually believe that they're so worthless that absent external incentives, nobody would want to hang out with them.

So dumb

[Anonymous Coward]

The reason bars do this in the first place is to attract more women there so I hope the idiot who filed this lawsuit over a $5-$10 cover enjoys the sausage fest that will now be every bar in Minnesota.

Re:So dumb

[Daetrin]

I agree. I wonder if the identity of this person is public knowledge? Because if so he's going to end up being _real_ popular.

But anyways, clearly the way to fix the problem is to just have a "skirt or bra night," where anyone who shows up wearing a skirt or a bra gets in without paying the cover. As long as they're willing to accept male cross-dressers (including people who aren't normally cross-dressers but are so cheap that they'll do it to save the cover charge) i don't think there would be any legal problem with it.

What about people who are gender variant?

[Anonymous Coward]

The whole "ladies night" thing can get interesting when you have a small, close-knit group of transsexuals deciding to go out on the town. Last time I was present as such an occurrence, the obviously non-passing transsexual was asked to pay cover charge. She ended up throwing a bouncer into the bar.

Who filed the suite?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure you can say it's unconstitutional, but who would actually sue over this? Who actually gives a shit? I for one will give up my right to not be at a bar on ladies night.

Re:Who filed the suite?

[Anonymous Coward]

I have to agree with you. The women at the bar on ladies night are either there with gaggles of giggling dimwitted man hating girls or if they are there single or with just one friend are only there to get guys to buy them drinks.

I have so many friends who get tricked at bars into buying drinks for pretty girls who imply they are looking for more (and I don't mean just sex), then after they get their drink move on to the next sucker.

Ladies?

[lemmis_86]

What are these - ladies - you speak of? ... Do they cost money or what's the deal here?

who cares

[Sprouticus]

What bar does ladies night any more? It has been a while since I was in school and I dont go to yuppy bars, but I ave not noticed an add for a ladies night in print or on the radio in years. And lets face it, none of the people on alsashdot have a social life anyways...

MN not the first

[Anonymous Coward]

A similar case happened in New Jersey. Ladies Night has been illegal there for several years now.

Since when did this happen.

[harrytuttle777]

It was not the case when I was in, and I can not find any mention of it on their website. This is why they have girl and brownie scouts