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Why Google's Wi-Fi Payload Collection Was Inadvertent

Reader Lauren Weinstein found a blog post that gives a good, fairly technical explanation of why Google's collection of Wi-Fi payload data was incidental, and why it's easy to collect Wi-Fi payload data accidentally in the course of mapping Wi-Fi access points. "Although some people are suspicious of their explanation, Google is almost certainly telling the truth when it claims it was an accident. The technology for Wi-Fi scanning means it's easy to inadvertently capture too much information, and be unaware of it. ... It's really easy to protect your data: simply turn on WPA. This completely stops Google (or anybody else) from spying on your private data. ... Laws against this won't stop the bad guys (hackers). They will only unfairly punish good guys (like Google) whenever they make a mistake. ... [A]nybody who has experience in Wi-Fi mapping would believe Google. Data packets help Google find more access-points and triangulate them, yet the payload of the packets do nothing useful for Google because they are only fragments."

62 of 267 comments (clear)

  1. Well duh by Pharmboy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Of course it was accidental, after all, their corporate slogan is "Do no evil". Obviously they wouldn't do anything that would be evil.

    --
    Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
    1. Re:Well duh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Thats just externally. Internally their slogan is "Do what you want until it threatens to make our image worse than the competition".

      Admittedly with their main competition being Microsoft they could screw up seriously badly and still be a thousand times 'holier' than
      Microsoft & Steve Beelzeballmer. The only other competition they have is Apple and they have no chance of competing in terms of
      loyalty/fanboyism. Google has a fan club, Apple has a following.

      Its not that Google are any better than anyone else, they just haven't been caught screwing up as badly as most others.

    2. Re:Well duh by Z00L00K · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Just see it this way - it's sometimes easier to log every information available when collecting the data and then filter out the interesting parts later. Especially when it's in the prototype state. And suddenly a prototype goes into production just because it works good enough.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    3. Re:Well duh by LordLimecat · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Its not that Google are any better than anyone else

      I would argue that; whether for PR reasons, technical reasons, or other, most of google's offerings are open in some way or other-- Gmail, for example, seems to be the only major email provider that does not restrict auto-forwarding, or client access, or contact export, or anything else. Yahoo, MS, and AOL all have some form of lock-in.

      So forgive me if I tend to cut them rather more slack than MS or AOL; the best thing about google is that if they ever become the Super Boogeyman, I can just pick up my data and leave.

    4. Re:Well duh by Pharmboy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I agree that Google is the lesser of all the available evils. That just goes to show you how fucked up the choices are. Then again, any public corporation is beholden to make each quarter look better than the last, and money is not only the first priority, but #2, #3 and often #4 as well. Protecting consumer privacy is pretty low on that list.

      --
      Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
    5. Re:Well duh by khchung · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Just see it this way - it's sometimes easier to log every information available when collecting the data and then filter out the interesting parts later. Especially when it's in the prototype state. And suddenly a prototype goes into production just because it works good enough.

      Yeah, right. Why not use this to justify the Sony rootkit too: "It's easier to just root the PC when preventing unauthorized action being done to the CD. And suddenly a prototype goes into production just because it works good enough."

      Do you buy that?

      No, the truth is people are defending Google not because it make sense, but because they want to believe Google is the good guy. This is no different from Creationists wanting to believe their idea in face of opposing evidence, it's only matter of degree.

      --
      Oliver.
    6. Re:Well duh by NoOneInParticular · · Score: 2, Informative

      Not really, their corporate slogan is "Don't be evil", that at least gives them some wiggle room.

    7. Re:Well duh by Pharmboy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      the truth is people are defending Google not because it make sense, but because they want to believe Google is the good guy.

      Truer words were never spoken. We need good guys, and will invent them if necessary. All of our historic "legends" were likely nothing like the myths that surrounded them, and some were outright asshats. In popular culture (Star Trek specifically), I love how Zephram Cochrane was actually just trying to get rich when he came up with the warp drive, there was no "higher calling" to it. Even art gets it.

      There are no good guys when it comes to capitalism. Don't get me wrong, it's the only system for me, but what you have are "bad guys", "evil guys", and "guys that usually play by the rules", and that is about as good as it gets. It is in our nature. The real "good guys" never truly succeed, partially because success isn't worth the price they would have to pay: A willingness to be ruthless when it is required.

      In short, Google is simply the lesser of all the available evils. Perhaps their motto should be "Do less evil".

      --
      Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
  2. Inadvertent Or Not ... by WrongSizeGlass · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Inadvertent or not Google broke laws in some countries. Accidentally breaking the law doesn't eliminate responsibility or culpability - even if people shouldn't have left their WiFi unsecured.

    If I accidentally run over someone with my car because I wasn't paying attention to what I was doing, it doesn't absolve me of the liability - even if that old lady had it coming, er, was jaywalking.

    1. Re:Inadvertent Or Not ... by D+Ninja · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You are correct, but that assumes the law makes sense in the first place. While Google may have broken a law, it's better to ask about (and get changed) laws that should not exist (or only exist to make politicians feel as if they are accomplishing something).

    2. Re:Inadvertent Or Not ... by slimjim8094 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      They may have broken the letter of the law, but almost positively not the spirit. In any case, the law is seriously flawed if it prevents Google's activity. And here's why:

      People were going to great lengths to literally broadcast the information into the car. How the hell can Google be held responsible for hearing it? If you put 50kW of The Office into my house from a hundred miles away, how is it illegal for me to watch it? And I know it's not illegal for me to record it.

      You don't *need* any analogies for this situation - IT'S A BROADCAST. They're all radio waves. Everybody understands FM, AM, TV broadcasts and would think it absolutely ridiculous for a broadcaster to get all up in arms about somebody receiving it. That's what WiFi is, but with somewhat less power, so it comes up less often.

      Can everybody PLEASE stop using analogies? They only serve to cloud the issue, and everybody already understands radio. It's a matter of making it clear to everybody that WiFi is radio.

      --
      I have developed a truly marvelous proof of this comment, which this signature is too narrow to contain.
    3. Re:Inadvertent Or Not ... by WrongSizeGlass · · Score: 4, Funny

      You don't *need* any analogies for this situation - IT'S A BROADCAST. They're all radio waves. Everybody understands FM, AM, TV broadcasts and would think it absolutely ridiculous for a broadcaster to get all up in arms about somebody receiving it. That's what WiFi is, but with somewhat less power, so it comes up less often.

      Can everybody PLEASE stop using analogies? They only serve to cloud the issue, and everybody already understands radio. It's a matter of making it clear to everybody that WiFi is radio.

      So you're saying I should have used a radio controlled car analogy? OK, but I've never used one of those to run over an old lady before.

    4. Re:Inadvertent Or Not ... by drew30319 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Inadvertent or not Google broke laws in some countries. Accidentally breaking the law doesn't eliminate responsibility or culpability - even if people shouldn't have left their WiFi unsecured. If I accidentally run over someone with my car because I wasn't paying attention to what I was doing, it doesn't absolve me of the liability - even if that old lady had it coming, er, was jaywalking.

      Not necessarily. If a law in a country is based on strict liability then you are probably correct because strict liability does not require a "guilty state of mind." For example, statutory rape in the U.S. is generally a strict liability crime (e.g. it wouldn't necessarily help Adam if he truly believed that Eve was of legal age if in reality she's a minor because state of mind isn't a factor for strict liability crimes).

      However, strict liability isn't the only level of culpability; in the U.S. the other levels are negligently, recklessly, knowingly, and purposefully. To use your driving example: if somebody were driving negligently (shown by not paying attention) and hit an old lady who is jaywalking it is a very different matter than if he is driving recklessly (shown by steering with his feet) or purposefully (shown by keeping a tally on his website of how many old ladies he has run over). If the jaywalking old lady is killed, this distinction may mean the difference between manslaughter and murder.

      To apply these culpability levels to the issue at hand it will be necessary to look to the statutes themselves; if the statute defines "illegal data collection" as being an act that is done purposefully, then negligence may not rise to that level. If it is determined that an error in Google's code is the reason behind the data collection and that the presence of the error in the code is due to negligence on the part of Google then it's entirely possible that no law was broken.

      --
      JAGga.me ----> Producing video games addressing emotional health and wellness issues affecting teens.
    5. Re:Inadvertent Or Not ... by Josef+Meixner · · Score: 2, Informative

      So you say a law making it illegal to capture, store and distribute personal data is bogus? Because that is the German version of the law you just attacked. You know, that law also makes it illegal to scrape websites and build a database of mail-addresses to spam. It makes it illegal for merchants to collect data from their customers and sell it behind their back. It makes it illegal to combine data from multiple sources to create a profile. It even is forcing some of the data collection companies to open their data and gives everybody the right to see, what they have collected (those companies have an exception and create something similar to the US credit scores), something they wouldn't have to do otherwise. The law makes sense because it doesn't try to narrowly define for each case what is allowed and what not, instead it defined some simple principles and tries to protect the privacy of citizens.

    6. Re:Inadvertent Or Not ... by slimjim8094 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      People go to greater lengths than Google did to receive TV broadcasts, such as from outside the usual service area. It's a whole hobby - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV_and_FM_DX

      This is a case of people of people who purchased a product to send and receive information to all computers in a particular radius, and are then upset when Google finds itself inside that radius and receives the information it's being sent. That's not exactly 'great lengths'.

      --
      I have developed a truly marvelous proof of this comment, which this signature is too narrow to contain.
    7. Re:Inadvertent Or Not ... by Tom · · Score: 2, Interesting

      IT'S A BROADCAST

      Other than radio, it is an addressed broadcast. See, every packet has a destination written on it. That makes the argument a little more interesting. It is more like a postcard - yes, you can read it (no encryption), but it has an address. The law considers postcards to be covered by the telecommunications privacy regulations.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    8. Re:Inadvertent Or Not ... by Kenoli · · Score: 2, Interesting

      This is /. and I was required to use a car analogy. I could have just as easily said "If I find an iPhone prototype and use the personal information in it to accidentally steal someone's identity, it doesn't absolve me of the liability - even if that old lady had it coming, er, left her iPhone behind in that bar."

      Nonsense. Maybe you should come up with an analogy that doesn't involve anything being damaged, destroyed, killed, or harmed in any way, and with the action being invisible to the supposed victim.

    9. Re:Inadvertent Or Not ... by Gordonjcp · · Score: 3, Informative

      It is more like a postcard - yes, you can read it (no encryption), but it has an address.
      ... except for the broadcast packets.

    10. Re:Inadvertent Or Not ... by DamnStupidElf · · Score: 3, Informative

      Other than radio, it is an addressed broadcast. See, every packet has a destination written on it. That makes the argument a little more interesting. It is more like a postcard - yes, you can read it (no encryption), but it has an address. The law considers postcards to be covered by the telecommunications privacy regulations.

      At best it's more like a public bulletin board in your neighborhood. You write the name of the intended recipient on the postcard, and pin it to the board. There are no magic RF fairies that deliver your 802.11 packets only to the intended recipients.

    11. Re:Inadvertent Or Not ... by debatem1 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I do not understand this argument. How is your data private if its sitting out in open air? That's like saying that just because I was yelling in public doesn't mean you have a right to hear what I was saying if I wasn't yelling *at you*.

    12. Re:Inadvertent Or Not ... by zuperduperman · · Score: 3, Informative

      distribute personal data

      It is important to note that Google didn't distribute the data. Nobody is even suggesting that (I know, not even you). People are behaving as if Google published this data on Street View - "here are the packets you can find 101 Johnson st!". As far as we know (and as Google has stated) they did not ever even look at this data.

      If there's a law against only storing such data it almost runs into philosophy - is something stored if it is never accessed? Is just the potential to access it enough, even if they never do? (does a tree falling in a wood make a sound if nobody is there to hear it?). If just the potential to access it is enough then we're all guilty because we all have the "potential" to access the open Wifi networks in the first place.

    13. Re:Inadvertent Or Not ... by squidinkcalligraphy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The law considers postcards to be covered by the telecommunications privacy regulations.

      So Google action's here are similar to looking at the receiver and sender addresses, and the postage stamp on the postcard, and reading a few words of the card in the process. Don't tell me that postal workers won't inadvertently catch a word or two of someone's postcard when reading the public information of the addresses?

      --
      "I think it would be a good idea" Gandhi, on Western Civilisation
    14. Re:Inadvertent Or Not ... by c6gunner · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It may well be that one day I paid with my c/c and you noted first two digits. Indeed nothing you can do with them. Next day I again paid with my c/c and you noted next two digits. Now it makes four. Next day ... [repeat until the logical end.] This is how you can get my entire c/c record. Any single observation is useless; but when combined they are very much useful.

      Yep, which would require a concerted effort to gather the required data, not just a single drive-by capture of a small portion of your CC number. If I came back enough times, then yes, I could get the info, but why would I bother? If I were interested in your CC, I'd just copy down the whole damn thing the first time.

      Anyway, if google wanted access to the data you were sending back-and-forth between your computer and router, it'd be pretty pointless for them to go grab a few dozen packets every couple weeks since the data is unlikely to be related. It would be like me coming over to your house every few weeks, writing down 2 numbers from a random document that you have lying around, and hoping to eventually construct a CC number from the jumble I've gathered. The CC analogy is a fun one, but doesn't really reflect the situation.

      The society instead decided to prohibit all intercepts since they have hardly any social advantages to begin with.

      If that were true, I could go to jail every time windows picks up a new access point.

      Besides, there is an easy way to have an unlisted phone number.

      There is an easy way to encrypt your packets.

    15. Re:Inadvertent Or Not ... by tftp · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Is something stored if it is never accessed?

      Imagine that you had some inconvenient photos, and if those photos are "accessed" your political career will end. Someone stole the photos. But they called you to assure that those photos will be never accessed. Will that be as good as if you personally destroyed all media those photos were on?

      If just the potential to access it is enough then we're all guilty because we all have the "potential" to access the open Wifi networks in the first place.

      I can't imagine a sane situation where a potential to commit a crime is the same as the crime itself. However one guy was recently arrested (illegally) and his lawful property "held" for a crime that other people thought he might be considering committing in the future.

    16. Re:Inadvertent Or Not ... by DerekLyons · · Score: 2, Informative

      People were going to great lengths to literally broadcast the information into the car. How the hell can Google be held responsible for hearing it?

      Google isn't being held responsible for hearing it - Google is being held responsible for storing and indexing it.
       

      They only serve to cloud the issue, and everybody already understands radio. It's a matter of making it clear to everybody that WiFi is radio.

      You don't even understand what the issue is - you shouldn't be lecturing other people.

    17. Re:Inadvertent Or Not ... by Tom · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So Google action's here are similar to looking at the receiver and sender addresses, and the postage stamp on the postcard, and reading a few words of the card in the process. Don't tell me that postal workers won't inadvertently catch a word or two of someone's postcard when reading the public information of the addresses?

      Postal workers do not save a copy of it, and they don't save copies of thousands and thousands of postcard texts. I'm pretty sure that if one of them did, he would be in just as much trouble.

      So we agree, I assume?

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    18. Re:Inadvertent Or Not ... by Tom · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I do not understand this argument. How is your data private if its sitting out in open air?

      We're talking about electro-magnetic waves here, right?

      Light is electro-magnetic waves. So what you're saying is that anyone looking into my private house can not possibly ever violate my privacy, because I was "broadcasting" it into open air, right? I could close the curtains, after all.

      While that is true (closing the curtains), the reverse is not. Just because I did not close the curtains does not automatically mean you can point a camera at my bedroom and that's ok.

      I don't know if geeks just don't get it at times, but many of the laws we have on our books are there exactly because it is easier to make it illegal than to force everyone to adopt security protocols. According to the arguments posted here, we wouldn't need laws against breaking and entering - after all, everyone could just install strong enough locks and doors and windows if they didn't want their homes to be broken into.

      That is not the thinking that makes a society work. A society works by agreeing on what kinds of activities we want or don't want, and then writing that down. If we don't want people listening in on open WiFi traffic, we can write that down. It is an alternative approach to forcing everyone to run encryption. It's called "laws".

      You can argue all you want about encryption and broadcast and bla bla, but the fact remains that this simple, straighforward approach of writing something down we don't want people to do even when it's easy has been fairly successfull for a couple thousand years now.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    19. Re:Inadvertent Or Not ... by Tom · · Score: 2, Informative

      ... except for the broadcast packets.

      Which don't contain e-mail addresses, passwords and HTTP traffic, which this was all about, so your argument is what, exactly?

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    20. Re:Inadvertent Or Not ... by Gordonjcp · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you stand on the street shouting your home telephone number, don't be surprised if someone phones it.

  3. No privacy laws is somehow better?? by Migala77 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Laws won't stop the bad guys, but if you have laws you can at least punish them if you catch them. Claiming Google are the good guys (based on what? their motto?) and saying therefore there should not be laws is just ridiculous.

    1. Re:No privacy laws is somehow better?? by icebraining · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't think Google are the good guys, but I don't agree with criminalizing passive recording of stuff people are *broadcasting* (yes, that's what APs do).

      It's like walking around naked and complaining people are seeing your private parts.

    2. Re:No privacy laws is somehow better?? by RCL · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well, while you are allowed to see other people on the street (naked or not), making photos of them without asking for their permission may be objectionable.

    3. Re:No privacy laws is somehow better?? by icebraining · · Score: 2, Interesting

      What's passive mean in this case anyways? They were not actively targeting a single entity? Not exactly true. They were explicitly targeting everyone. I would argue that Google was, in fact, actively recording all of the broadcasts.

      No. Passing scanning/sniffing means they were only receiving packets, not sending. An example is if you're trying to get an hidden SSID: you can either passively wait for a computer to connect to the AP to capture the SSID, or you can actively send "disconnect packets" to force clients to reconnect.

      Your analogy is incorrect. Most of the consumers, the unwashed masses, have an extraordinarily small understanding of how technology works and its true affect on their lives. If you asked 1000 people on the street if they thought their Linksys/Netgear/whatever wireless router they bought from Best Buy communicating with their laptops in their house was analogous to them walking around naked outside of their house I am pretty certain you are going to get 0/1000 answering yes.

      Criminalizing stuff because people are too lazy to learn how to use their own equipment seems dangerous to me.
      In my opinion, that's the AP manufacturers' job. For example, here in Portugal it's now very rare to spot an open personal AP. Why? Because most people buy them from the ISP, which sells them with WPA enabled by default, and the password (generated randomly) printed on the manual (also, the SSIDs seem to have a random component, to "kill" rainbow table attacks).

      I get the "large power hence higher standards", but even so in this particular case it shouldn't be illegal. And the Finnish seem to agree with me, since they made it legal to use networks that allow anonymous logins.

  4. Re:So? by erroneus · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Nothing explains why they stored the data so far. Recording names of access points? Okay. Recording locations of access points? Mmmmaybe. Recording data retrieved by connecting to unsecured access points? No. How can that data be used for any honest purpose? And let's be clear about this: collecting and storing data is an act directed by software which was written by a person or persons who were acting under direction ostensibly by specification. You find those specifications and directors and you will come closer to finding the truth as well as those responsible.

  5. Bogus argument by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    The argument is that capturing data packets is useful to find the SSID of access points which send beacon frames with blank SSID field or where only a client is within range but not the access point itself. That argument is bogus. The mobile devices which will later use the mapped SSIDs and BSSIDs to calculate their own position do not see anything but the beacon frames. It is therefore entirely sufficient to capture just the beacon frames.

    There is a legitimate argument that Google was just lazy (or "scientific") by capturing everything they can get in the field and analyzing later. There is however no technical reason for this and we should not make one up to defend Google.

  6. I honestly don't understand the fuss by nightfire-unique · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If you're broadcast your data via radio, why on earth would you expect anyone to consider it private?

    Encryption. If you need it, use it.

    --
    A government is a body of people notably ungoverned - AC
    1. Re:I honestly don't understand the fuss by FuckingNickName · · Score: 5, Insightful

      There's a very sensitive infrared camera and microphone outside your house right now, and we're disturbed by your interactions with your plushie. In the spirit of blind justice, I'm going to upload to /b/ and let the People decide.

      If you broadcast your movements via radio (and air movements), why on earth would you expect anyone to consider it private?

      A thick Faraday cage. If you need it, use it.

    2. Re:I honestly don't understand the fuss by FuckingNickName · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That is an entirely stupid analogy, since people have obvious reasons to expect privacy when behind their own walls. On the other hand, no one broadcasting unscrambled and unencrypted radio has any reason to expect privacy.

      We're comparing people sending out unencrypted infra-red e-m waves while behind their own walls to people sending out unencrypted microwave e-m waves while behind their own walls. Unless wavelength is philosophically important in your argument, I'd say the analogy is fairly sound.

      If you want privacy, even WEP is enough to be legally sufficient

      In what rational way can a transmission be of "legally sufficient" format for no-one to be allowed to snoop? This sounds like a daft DMCA-style confounding of social and technical problems. My reasonable expectation is that you don't follow me around surreptitiously recording everything I've said and then using it for personal gain, and, depending on your jurisdiction (the US included when it comes to certain radio transmissions), the law is in agreement.

      Now I'd be a little naive to expect no-one to idly listen to something I'm transmitting in the the clear, and the law would be draconian to make it illegal to hear me. But hearing data and wilfully processing data for personal gain are completely different things. The UK (and EU) Data Protection Acts seem to understand this very well and speak of various rights and responsibilities in terms of how data can be "processed", not whether it can be "heard".

    3. Re:I honestly don't understand the fuss by FuckingNickName · · Score: 2, Informative

      The obvious difference being I radiate infrared light incidentally.

      What does "incidentally" mean? It is not your intention to broadcast infrared outside your property for others to pick up? Well, guess what, it's not Joe Public's intention to broadcast his wifi data outside his property for others to pick up either. It's just incidental to the science behind radio.

      I can't stop from doing so

      A sufficiently thick wall of the appropriate material would do the job.

      and unless I have some scientific background, chances are I don't even know that I'm doing so.

      And unless you have some technical background, chances are you don't know much about what that flashing wireless router is doing either.

      It is very different from me making an active attempt to make a radio broadcast using specialized equipment.

      Since Joe Public isn't making an active attempt to make a radio broadcast, I'm not sure of the relevance.

      If you don't see the difference between these two scenerios, then thank god you arn't in politics or law.

      Assuming? :-)

    4. Re:I honestly don't understand the fuss by FuckingNickName · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Everyone knows that the radio signals they use reach farther than their house

      Do they? Does everyone know the nature of radio? Is it self-evident that encryption means more than joining your laptop with your base station? IOW, why should it even be obvious that the laws of physics permit someone to pick up someone else's payload - maybe there's something about radio which means you have to pair the receiver/transmitter in a particular way? We know this isn't so, but you lack imagination to imply that it's obvious - you need to either understand some principles of radio or to be told.

      And, FWIW, I understand e-m to undergraduate physics level and have a full amateur radio licence, yet I'm still baffled by the varying reception behaviour in this old house. Propagation is a fascinating and non-trivial topic, whether it refers to hearing someone in Australia on shortwave or the wind carrying snippets of a conversation on the other side of the park.

      Meanwhile, everyone who's seen a cop show knows that "you can see people move in the undergrowth in the dark with a red light of some sort".

  7. A little too easy by JorDan+Clock · · Score: 3, Insightful

    So what TFA is saying is that the issue isn't simply Google snooping on networks and collecting data? And that there may have been a legitimate reason for this whole situation? And that it's blown out of proportion? STOP RUINING MY REASONS TO BE ANGRY AT GOOGLE!

  8. The good guys? by beaviz · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Laws against this won't stop the bad guys (hackers). They will only unfairly punish good guys (like Google) whenever they make a mistake.

    Google is intercepting and logging personal data traffic for whole countries at a time, and you think they are the good guys?!

    1. Re:The good guys? by mellon · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Whether or not they are the good guys, laws that attempt to contravene physics are a bad idea. If the packets had been encrypted, it wouldn't have mattered that Google captured them--without the key, they're just noise. You could pass a law saying that capturing packets broadcast without encryption is illegal, or you could pass a law saying that if you want your packets to be private, you should encrypt them, and if you don't encrypt them, you have no expectation of privacy. Which of these two laws do you honestly think makes the most sense?

      Normally wiretapping involves a deliberate act of bypassing some kind of lock, if only the lock on the box that contains the wires. Here there was no lock, and the packets were hitting the antenna without any special effort on Google's part, and Google did have a legitimate purpose in putting up the antenna and listening for packets. Yes, they got more packets than their legitimate purpose required. Maybe they did so deliberately, although I can't see any reason why that would have been useful to them. But making it illegal is a really expensive way to solve the problem, and it doesn't solve the fundamental problem, which is that people are sending their personal information over the network in the clear.

    2. Re:The good guys? by mellon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No, there's a big difference. If I steal your bike, you don't have it. If I receive what you transmit with your radio, you haven't lost anything. You didn't have any privacy, because you were broadcasting your packet, so you haven't lost your privacy.

      This is more like if you get the word "loser" tattooed on your forehead, and then you demand that the government pass a law that says that not only can nobody take pictures of you that show the tattoo, and not only can they not comment on it, but they aren't even allowed to register, in the privacy of their own mind, that you have that tattoo on your forehead.

      You're wrong ;) The fundamental problem is not unencrypted networks. The fundamental problem is that Google can (legally in many places) harvest and use this information for whatever purpose they like - and some people are blaming the people operating the wireless networks. I find that absurd.

      Dude, you can make whatever assertions you want, but again, if you tattoo "idiot" on your forehead, you don't get to tell me not to notice.

      If we imagined a company, with access to massive computation power, captured encrypted traffic and later brute-forced deciphered everything. Will your reaction be: "Well, it's their own fault. They should have used stronger encryption"?

      Well, on the one hand, that's not the same thing, because in this case they have reason to assume that you didn't want to share that information with them; in the case of information you have broadcast in the clear, they have no such reason. I would argue that they should not do this. I would also argue that if you really care about keeping your data private, you should assume that someone, possibly not Google, will be doing this, and choose your keys accordingly.

      Now, suppose Google took the data that they got through brute-forcing your keys, and used it to impersonate you and steal money from your bank account. Whether that information was sent in the clear or brute-forced, when they take it and use it to steal from you, they have in fact committed a crime.

      We can argue about the moment when they cross over the line from being weirdly creepy to doing something that's actually wrong. I would argue that they cross this line when they take data that's been deliberately kept from them and deliberately gain access to it. Sure, keeping copies of packets they sniffed from your network is a bit creepy if they did it on purpose, but the mere fact of having done it is not itself an indication of wrongdoing--they have to do something inappropriate with it in order to cross that line.

    3. Re:The good guys? by mellon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The Google car *was* in a public place: the road. And what it did was much more equivalent to just shooting a picture that happened to have your face in it than deliberately shooting a portrait of you without your consent.

      As for "personal data", how is Google to know that data you've broadcasted for all to see is personal?

      If you don't want people to see your data, don't broadcast it.

  9. inadvertent to collect, but not to keep by fermion · · Score: 3, Insightful
    It may be inadvertent to collect, but keeping it requires a conscious and deliberate effort to allocate resources. For instance, no one can fault me for listening to the conversations around me. The people are talking in a public place and therefore have no expectation of privacy. However, if I start taking notes or recording their conversation, then I have made a deliberate attempt invade what many would consider, at least, a semiprivate situation. If I go further and use sophisticated equipment to record their conversations and acts from a distance, then I am move myself even further from the 'inadvertent sniffing' to the 'actively spying.

    My concern with what Google, and many other firms, are doing is that they are dedicated huge amounts of resources to collected huge amount of data on people. As profit making entities, these firms must at some point monetize this data to get a return on investment. Therefore, if google is keeping data other than basic acces point information, then they must be planning to do something with it.

    --
    "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
  10. Re:So? by agrif · · Score: 4, Informative

    Despite what everyone thinks (and how it seems to the uninformed) it very likely was accidental. If I was tasked to correlate Access Points to their locations, the simplest way would be to dump raw wireless traffic to one file, and raw GPS data to another. Later, you can zip them both up and run some analysis, and get the data you want out.

    It'd be real easy to forget to filter the packets you dump to only anonymous, non-data-carrying packets. More than likely the people who designed it just forgot to, or figured it would be no big deal if they just never used that info. Sloppy engineering maybe, but certainly not malicious.

  11. Re:So? by MoHaG · · Score: 2, Interesting

    They accidentally recorded parts of publicly broadcasted data....

    It is not much different from a phone recording a conversation in a busy enviroment and being blameed for accidentally recoring parts of other people's conversations that you walked past...

  12. Re:So? by spinkham · · Score: 5, Informative

    Yes, they should have only saved the SSID, location, and signal strength. Instead, they used off the shelf software which saved more data. There is no reason to believe this was intentional.

    That's fine and legal to do in the USA, as you have no expectation of privacy using unencrypted broadcast:
    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00002511----000-.html

    TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 119 > 2511
    (g) It shall not be unlawful under this chapter or chapter 121 of this title for any person—
            (i) to intercept or access an electronic communication made through an electronic communication system that is configured so that such electronic communication is readily accessible to the general public;

            (v) for other users of the same frequency to intercept any radio communication made through a system that utilizes frequencies monitored by individuals engaged in the provision or the use of such system, if such communication is not scrambled or encrypted.

    In the US, if you transmit in the clear on unlicensed spectrum, they can legally pick it up due to two different, non-overlapping legal clauses. ( Note, I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice, this is but one of possibly relevant laws, etc.)

    The problem is they didn't need to do so, and it creeps people in the US out. So even here where it is legal, they probably shouldn't have from a PR point of view.

    In some other countries it is not legal to collect that data, and doing so intentionally might lower your penalties, but still does not make it legal.

    --
    Blessed are the pessimists, for they have made backups.
  13. I trust Google on this one. by jrhawk42 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Basically Google probably could of swept this under the rug, and most companies would have. Google on the other hand came out as the only source. There was no accusations, or indication that this information would leak yet Google freely informed the public that this was an accident, and took responsibility. Maybe there was some underlying motive, maybe there's information we don't have, but with all the info that's out right now it seems Google acted as a good samaritan.

  14. Re:So? by LordLimecat · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Any geek worth their salt also never makes mistakes. Myself, I think I made a mistake once many years ago, and for my negligence i was rightfully whipped for it. Now of course I never make them; my work is always perfect.

  15. Re:So? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The thing most people forget to ask, but was asked in this article, is something you conveniently forgot to mention. Here it is:

    What possible use could google have for this data? What would be their motive here?

    As the article says, there's almost no personal data in the emails. Even if there is, there's so little of it that what useful purpose could it serve? You'd have a hard time correlating it to any one person, or even finding out what it is. There's going to be so little data here, and it'll be so fragmented, that turning it into anything useful would be impossible.

    On the other hand, why would google risk collecting this data when they knew what was going to happen if it got out? The risk vs. reward here just doesn't make sense. They're going to risk their reputation on... what? Collecting a few fragments of unencrypted wifi traffic that probably contains so little information and could very well be generated by a bot running on your machine.

    I'm not going to believe google did this on purpose until someone can give me a motive that doesn't sound like something from a UFO convention.

  16. Re:So? by postbigbang · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You may find your mistake early, after gigabytes worth of data. Then you fix it before it becomes TB or PB of data. Right?

    We're all allowed mistakes. Mistakes of this size from the uber-geeks of Google isn't a mistake. It's negligence..... not quite of BP's size, but just as shamelessly stupid.

    --
    ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
  17. Re:Privacy? by cynyr · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You do, ensure that it's broadcast power is low enough so as not to escape the walls of your dwelling, and encrypt the traffic (WPA2 preferably).
    No privacy was violated, it's not like the guy in van drove up the to the house, and shoved an antenna though the mail slot. I mean this is like complaining the guy making a movie in his backyard recorded your shouting over his fence, don't shout then!

    --
    All of the above was encrypted with a Quad ROT-13 method. Unauthorized decryption is in violation of the DMCA.
  18. Re:Privacy? by Have+Brain+Will+Rent · · Score: 2, Insightful

    No, this is complaining that they are identifying that you have an access point at all and then (presumably) making that information publicly available. Setting the power so the signal doesn't escape the house - while still reaching all areas of the house - is not practical. It also puts the onus on you to "hide" rather than on them to obtain permission before publicizing information about you. As for your analogy, I think this is a better one: this is like them driving up beside your house and looking in the windows with binoculars and then publicising to the world the contents of your house.

    --
    The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny - Aesop
  19. Re:FR0$T P&$$ by Antidamage · · Score: 4, Interesting

    You make an excellent point.

    For my part, I'd like to point out that if Google wanted to read your email, they wouldn't bother collecting wifi data. They'd just read yer fucking email.

  20. Re:So? by DynamiteNeon · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I think what is more likely is that someone came to the engineer and said they needed to get the data and nobody really bothered to think of the privacy concern since it was going to be used internally anyway. Sure, if the engineer was told that the requirements demanded better privacy, he could have stripped the payloads, but if someone asked you to just get the data, it's less likely you'd think of that as a problem.

    I would redefine it as sloth on the part of the management for not considering the issues, as opposed to lazy engineers.

  21. Re:So? by Score+Whore · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Regardless of whether it's accidental, or difficult as the OP suggests, the reality is that both of those are merely excuses and rationalizations for externalizing the bad effects of behavior while privatizing the profits. Try translating those excuses to another industry and see how satisfying an answer they are. Consider medicine, there are undeniable benefits to modern therapies. However because it's hard to get right, we don't just accept any random treatment. Before companies unleash their new products upon the public we require that they take the time to ensure, as much as possible, that they are safe and don't have unintended effects. You may suggest that Google isn't a medical company whose products and services won't be killing anyone or causing them to grow a third eyeball, therefore they don't have the same obligations. OK, then how about banking? Credit reporting? Private investigators? Mining companies?

    Entirely outside any other arguments, I find it hilariously ironic that Google -- the company staffed entirely by PhDs, by the most brilliant minds in the industry, by saints who'll do nothing wrong -- always comes back to "look we have this awesome idea with splendid (but vague and non-specific) benefits beyond making us incredibly wealthy, however there are significant downsides for the rest of you and those downsides are hard to avoid." Which makes me think that maybe they aren't so smart, which means that maybe their idea isn't so great. Isn't the point of being smart that you can do things that are hard? QED.

  22. Re:So? by causality · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The thing most people forget to ask, but was asked in this article, is something you conveniently forgot to mention. Here it is:

    What possible use could google have for this data? What would be their motive here?

    As the article says, there's almost no personal data in the emails. Even if there is, there's so little of it that what useful purpose could it serve? You'd have a hard time correlating it to any one person, or even finding out what it is. There's going to be so little data here, and it'll be so fragmented, that turning it into anything useful would be impossible.

    On the other hand, why would google risk collecting this data when they knew what was going to happen if it got out? The risk vs. reward here just doesn't make sense. They're going to risk their reputation on... what? Collecting a few fragments of unencrypted wifi traffic that probably contains so little information and could very well be generated by a bot running on your machine.

    I'm not going to believe google did this on purpose until someone can give me a motive that doesn't sound like something from a UFO convention.

    What if this were a calculated marketing maneuver designed to test the waters and find out how much people really care about privacy and the possible hard-to-justify violation thereof? This is, after all, a company that would make far less money if everyone had excellent online privacy. How much people are willing to protect that privacy and how much outrage they express at real or perceived violations of it could be very important data to a company like Google.

    This is data that would be difficult for Google to obtain from their usual channels. Just like in politics, it has to become an "issue" and then the reaction can be assessed. A privacy matter that collects little or no directly sensitive information (thus protecting Google from potential liability) that still raises the issue and gets people talking about it would be perfect for this purpose. That's exactly what happened here.

    The more successful a company, the more resources it possesses, the more talent it has hired, the more difficult it becomes to believe that they'd make trivial mistakes that most Slashdotters, acting alone with an infinitessimal fraction of the same resources, would have easily avoided. Good long-term strategy looks a lot like things just happening to work out a certain way as a product of chance. It's possible someone at Google could have made the incredibly trivial mistake that caused this chain of events. What's unlikely is that among all of the managers, designers, and programmers involved in this project, not one person noticed such a mistake.

    --
    It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
  23. Mods Fail To Get Simple Things Right, Again by causality · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Your ends-justifies-the-means concept holds no water.

    My wifi access points are a matter of public knowledge. After all-- they're freaking radios. What's not public knowledge is anything after the location of it, and its authentication- if any.

    The data that flows there is mine, and no one elses. The other MAC addresses associated with the AP are also my business, and no one else's. Differing jurisdictions have different views of the severity of the theft that their mindlessly-stupid shark-like gobbling did. I hope they suffer the higher of the common denominators of justice.

    At the time of this writing, the parent post is marked "Troll".

    How is this trolling? Consequentialism is a valid thing to argue against. Granted, you may disagree with parent's opinion of what is and is not a private component of a Wi-Fi transmission. If you disagree with him that a violation has occurred then you would necessarily also disagree that Google should suffer legal action from any sort of justice system. If that's the case, then the respectable non-cowardly way to handle it is to argue against it and take him to task.

    I'll spell this out since a lot of mods clumsily fail to grasp a few basic concepts. "Troll" is something of an accusation or judgment. That doesn't change because you express it by selecting it from a menu rather than directly confronting the poster. As such, it requires at least some kind of positive indication. Specifically, it would require a good reason to believe that the parent poster could not conceivably express the above as a sincere opinion and is saying it merely to get a reaction out of others. There is no such indication here.

    This reminds me of too many Apple discussions, in which the fanboyism towards $popular_company is stronger than the love of free speech or the ability to handle opinions with which you disagree. I don't particularly care so much about the waste of a perfectly good mod point. Rather, the hypocrisy is what needs to be pointed out.

    --
    It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
  24. Re:Privacy? by Have+Brain+Will+Rent · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Your selective quoting and attempted sarcasm are rather pointless since I was merely pointing out the flaw in the suggestion I received. But your attempt at wit is noted.

    As for your analogy, it is not apt. Let me fix it for you:

    "If you want to get to the library, go down Main Street and take a left at the house that has a big screen TV and large leather couch in the living room."

    Either you get that privacy is being increasingly encroached upon and that encroachment is a problem, or you don't. You don't seem to get that so I really see no point in further "discussion" with you (and wouldn't anyway since you seem to need to massage your ego by attempted wit and sarcasm). If it will make you feel better go ahead and have the last word. Make it a four letter one if you like.

    --
    The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny - Aesop
  25. Re:They most certainely broke the law by WeatherGod · · Score: 2, Insightful

    That would make sense if Google wrote all of the code themselves. However, they used many off-the-shelf, open-source tools to perform their data collection.

    The defaults in those tools is to grab all the frames. So, the guy who put together the tools (who probably was not a privacy-minded person) says "It works great! We have the data that we want, see?" and shows the finished product to his boss. The boss, who might have been more privacy-minded, probably looked at the finished product and saw no personal information, and gave it a checkmark. Completely missing the intermediate data product that no one was using.