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UK Gov't To Review Hundreds of Websites, Axe Many of Them

krou writes "The UK government is to review all of its 820 websites after the Central Office of Information revealed that for 2009-2010, the government spent '£94m on website development and running costs and £32m on web staff,' which each site visitor representing a cost of £11.78 to the government. 'The UK Trade and Investment website averaged 28,000 users per month but cost over £4m ... 16% of government departments did not know how their own websites were being used by tax payers, and almost a quarter were not aware of the running costs.' There was also anecdotal evidence of departments bidding against each other for search terms on Google. The review is to be carried out by Cabinet Minister Francis Maude, Chief Secretary to the Treasury Danny Alexander, and Digital Champion Martha Lane Fox."

32 of 92 comments (clear)

  1. YRO? by MessedRocker · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm not sure what this has to do with my rights online. This pertains to an internal governmental review of *its own* websites, not other people's.

    1. Re:YRO? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Slashdot is mindless libertarian central. Any story that can be twisted to make it sound like the government is incompetent gets an immediate green light. Naturally, the fact that *every fucking private corporation on earth has the same kind of problems* never comes into it. The next time you see a story on slashdot where there is some obvious corporate incompetence, ask yourself why there is no tag labelling it "corporations" as there is always a "government" tag added to these kinds of stories.

    2. Re:YRO? by JansenVT · · Score: 3, Insightful

      While /, may be considered "libertarian" by some, this story is still useful. The actual monetary costs of web technology on the taxpayers is an interesting figure. The story is not necessarily saying that the money is wasted or that the government is evil for spending it on web2.0 twitter-enabled blogosphere enhancements to their local police station website.

      (that's just what we collectively imply)

    3. Re:YRO? by value_added · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The actual monetary costs of web technology on the taxpayers is an interesting figure. The story is not necessarily saying that the money is wasted or that the government is evil for spending it on web2.0 twitter-enabled blogosphere enhancements to their local police station website.

      The story does suggest, however, that the number of users per month is a valid enough metric. I'm not sure I agree with that. The Trade and Investment website certainly isn't geared toward Joe Public, so if it's used primarily by trade or business groups, popularity with anyone but a meaningful few (those who make deals) is meaningless. The same would apply to a site that provides detailed or complex economic data. If only a handful of researchers visit the website, but each provides summary analysis to thousands of people (the news media, for example), should the website be considered "unpopular"?

      Transparency is generally a good thing when it comes to government. So the more websites the better. Compared to other government expenditures, I'd suggest the cost of website development is equivalent to a few red staplers. Besides, I think we'd all agree that the employment of developers and IT staff is preferrable to hiring more counter clerks.

    4. Re:YRO? by cynyr · · Score: 2, Insightful

      i think "site" and "server cluster + infrastructure + bandwidth" are getting a bit mixed up here. I see no issue with have large numbers of sites as you suggest, but does a site that gets 28k people per month need a whole data center? could it be combined with a few other low traffice sites and save on costs?

      --
      All of the above was encrypted with a Quad ROT-13 method. Unauthorized decryption is in violation of the DMCA.
    5. Re:YRO? by Kitkoan · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'm not sure what this has to do with my rights online. This pertains to an internal governmental review of *its own* websites, not other people's.

      Well in one way this has to do with your rights online is when a government removes information (web sites) from the public, it makes the public a little less informed of what their government is doing and what services it provides the people. The article isn't very clear of which sites are going to be removed and the more that are removed with information that might be useful/vital to the public, the more this effects your rights online. While the cost might not be worth the added expense of the hosting, some of these sites should possibly be merged and in the end to save the labor of merging the sites the government might cut corners and just cut the information out all together. A less informed public is a public with less rights and say in it's government.

      --
      Attention... all grammer nazi"s! Is they're anything; wrong with: my post,
    6. Re:YRO? by mindwhip · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's not even that simple... some sites directly compete and have contradictory information....

      The example they were using on the BBC News channel...

      http://www.lovechips.co.uk/ - (chips = French fries to you odd Americans that can't call anything by its correct name... French fries are a specific type of chip and what you call chips are in fact crisps) run by the Potato Council which is a division of the Agriculture & Horticulture Development Board (a government entity) encourages you to eat MORE chips
      http://www.nhs.uk/change4life/Pages/Default.aspx is run by the NHS and encourages you to eat LESS chips

      (of course the fact that lovechips was featured on BBC means that their click count has gone way up and now are safe from the cuts... before it had fewer than 100 hits a month, and really should have been cut as it has nothing that is useful to voters or the government.

      --
      [The Universe] has gone offline.
  2. I'm always bewildered... government contracts by JansenVT · · Score: 5, Insightful

    As a web designer / developer I am always bewildered by the obscene costs I hear for government websites, especially given their terribly below level of quality and usefulness.

    People with government contracts must really milk it for all it's worth.

    1. Re:I'm always bewildered... government contracts by sco08y · · Score: 5, Insightful

      As a web designer / developer I am always bewildered by the obscene costs I hear for government websites, especially given their terribly below level of quality and usefulness.

      People with government contracts must really milk it for all it's worth.

      I worked for a small company that did a website for a local government agency years ago, around '97 I think. They wanted all kinds of bells and whistles so they could go to their bosses and show them what an awesome web site they had. It was designed far more to please government insiders than to be useful to taxpayers.

      I don't think we were milking them, rather, they didn't know what they wanted or needed, and it certainly wasn't our job to figure it out. They also didn't have any plan, really, to maintain it or scale it up or have it go anywhere. From going on to six years working in or around the government, that's just how they do stuff.

    2. Re:I'm always bewildered... government contracts by hedwards · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It's a good idea that they're paring things back and hopefully reducing the number of sites that are necessary. Here in the US, WA to be more specific, our state government did that some years back. They cut it back to just one website, with sub domains for various parts of the government. The basic idea was that pretty much any idea should be no more than a handful of clicks away from the front page of the site. And if you couldn't do that you should be able to click on a unified search engine that could find any state resource in minimal time.

      Admittedly, it's not perfect, but I've found it to be an efficient way of finding information on state government. And it actually does a better job than many corporate sites do in terms of accessibility.

    3. Re:I'm always bewildered... government contracts by suky · · Score: 4, Informative

      It's a two way street. Governments are slow to adopt streamlined purchasing systems because they're spending tax dollars and so everything has to be accounted for and purchases authorized in various different and often complex ways. Many vendors are more then happy to put up with all the inane purchasing requirements BS the government will throw at them in exchange for a high-volume and usually exclusive contract with higher prices then retail consumers would pay.

    4. Re:I'm always bewildered... government contracts by Chelmet · · Score: 5, Insightful

      they didn't know what they wanted or needed, and it certainly wasn't our job to figure it out.

      Erm, as far as I'm concerned, that's exactly your job. Its what a requirements capture is for. I feel quite offended by this attitude of yours - you're the expert. If I went to an architect and asked for a floating house, it would be his job to tell me that that's not what I really want, and to work with me on something more appropriate, rather taking the money and running away before my wife gets home.

      I hope you enjoyed the coke you snorted off hooker's cracks with my tax money.

    5. Re:I'm always bewildered... government contracts by JansenVT · · Score: 2

      If only it worked that way. Potential clients often come to us with demands and whacky ideas, There is often no talking them down from them, either.

      They just don't seem to understand that their gas station doesn't need an interactive photo gallery with 940 photos and a library of virtual tours of the bathroom, all in 1080p streamed to their brand new iPhone app

    6. Re:I'm always bewildered... government contracts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      especially given their terribly below level of quality and usefulness.

      Aww, come on, tell me this isn't the best thing you've ever seen.

    7. Re:I'm always bewildered... government contracts by MichaelSmith · · Score: 5, Insightful

      they didn't know what they wanted or needed, and it certainly wasn't our job to figure it out.

      Erm, as far as I'm concerned, that's exactly your job. Its what a requirements capture is for. I feel quite offended by this attitude of yours - you're the expert. If I went to an architect and asked for a floating house, it would be his job to tell me that that's not what I really want, and to work with me on something more appropriate, rather taking the money and running away before my wife gets home.

      I hope you enjoyed the coke you snorted off hooker's cracks with my tax money.

      The Government employees paid to design projects like this are themselves on the take in a different way. They want to use the project as enhance their reputation. Key to this is having lots of bells and whistles. Flashing lights help too. If you can get the Minister a media opportunity then your career is looking up.

      The customer is always right, and frequently corrupt.

    8. Re:I'm always bewildered... government contracts by psych0munky · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They wanted all kinds of bells and whistles so they could go to their bosses and show them what an awesome web site they had. It was designed far more to please government insiders than to be useful to taxpayers.

      Here, here!! I work as an IT architect for a provincial crown-affiliated corporation here in the great white north (Canada...and no, I don't drive a polar bear to work), and although we are not "fully" government, I see the same damn thing day in and day out from our business people. It is a shame...and when I remind them of taxpayer money going to support this and the fact that simple is better (we cater to non-techy crowds that live predominately in rural areas, so we need to keep things light enough for slower than broadband connections anyways) there is usually acceptance. The problem, it seems is the abundance of middle-management and IT people uneducated in web-technoolgies that the business people usually talk to. The developers and operations guys that no better are very rarely given the chance to talk to the business people making the decisions anyways.

      they didn't know what they wanted or needed

      Sounds familiar, but that is why we go to outside vendors for help.

      and it certainly wasn't our job to figure it out.

      Seriously? And is this company you worked for still in existence? If so, do you still work as a consultant, or are you now internal IT somewhere? I don't mean to be attacking, but most of the time we go to market simply because we lack the experience in-house to help the business figure out what they need. The consultants that we bring in that cannot help us usually don't get invited back (no internal staff that just do what they are told, we seem to hang on to and let the people who can actually help the business figure things out, we let go (of their own accord or not)...weird to me..but I digress). Granted we do have the occasional contract where we are just looking for warm bodies to do what they are told, but those are rare. Being a good consultant includes helping your client figure out what they want/need.

    9. Re:I'm always bewildered... government contracts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It is the architect's job to get you to give up on technically impossible ideas. It most certainly is not his job to tell you that you do not, in fact, want those huge and expensive skylights or granite walls.

    10. Re:I'm always bewildered... government contracts by eugene+ts+wong · · Score: 2, Informative

      You can't blame only the contractor. Many times the greatest ideas are turned down by the client, no matter how well you explain it. That's what makes government a necessary evil at best, and an enemy at worst.

      I work for the government. We were just chatting once, and I casually expressed my disappointment at waste and this seasoned veteran [literally a military veteran] said something along the lines of, "You can't think of it that way. The military is a devouring animal and nothing more. We do try to prevent waste, but all we do is devour.". That's true. With social services, their main goal is to reach out to as many people as possible, so they always come close to spending their budget or over. They'll never ask how they can reduce their spending. With our government websites, they don't need bells and whistles, since they have a captive audience, anyways. Yet, they went the low road and chose non-standard HTML. The stories could go on and on with every kind of government organization.

      For multilanguage web sites, even in the 90s, our government could have allowed the user to identify his language preference in his browser. I think that Netscape 4 and IE 4 had this capability, and it was an actual standard, but no, the government preferred to have a welcome page, with a "Please select the language of your choice.", and it still does. This current implementation creates 2 different web sites, instead of 1 web site with different languages.

      Most web sites are *still* inaccessible for blind users, I bet.

      If you ask for a floating house, and if you would just keep searching for a contractor until he says, "Yes.", then you can't blame him for not trying to "figure it out". In fact, just giving the government what it wants might actually save the government time, and thus reduce the costs of implementing the stupid project.

  3. Bidding against each other? by icebike · · Score: 2, Informative

    As a Google advertiser, I've yet to find a way to prevent bidding against any other specific site.

    I don't believe Google allows that level of detail. I'm also not aware that you even know the other bidders.

    --
    Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    1. Re:Bidding against each other? by LostCluster · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There's a way... have the home office that owns both divisions control the Google AdWords account and let them declare redundancy when there's two divisions doing the same. (What "declared redundant" is British for what us Americans call "laid-off"? I guess that's the point...)

  4. How much is each visitor worth? by AlpineR · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Is £11.78 inherently too much to spend for a web site visitor? When I need to renew my vehicle registration, a web site visit that let's me do it online is certainly worth more than that to me rather than spending half a day at the DMV. For some business-oriented sites that deal with licenses, £11.78 per visitor could certainly be worth bringing in a few more £1,000,000 per year businesses to town.

    1. Re:How much is each visitor worth? by digitig · · Score: 2, Informative

      Nobody in the UK ever has to spend half a day at the UK equivalent of the DMV unless they work there. Vehicle registrations are dealt with by main post offices (or online, of course) and by post. Do it when you're in town, 20 minutes tops if you pick a busy time, more likely 5.

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    2. Re:How much is each visitor worth? by pandrijeczko · · Score: 3, Informative

      Oh yes, the "joys" of the good old UK Post Office... ...a place where there are always as many closed counters as there open ones... ...a place where there is never any attempt made to stagger employee lunch breaks to take into account the fact that they are busiest during lunchtime periods... ...a place where the staff will openly moan at you if you drop in a parcel for which you have previously purchased postage online simply to try and help lessen the queues at the counters because it turns out that the actual Post Office gets no revenue from those types of parcel.

      These days I go into a Post Office only when there is absolutely no alternative.

      --
      Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
    3. Re:How much is each visitor worth? by 91degrees · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The thing is, while there are a few websites that will have a handful of visitors but relate to multi-million pound businesses, most government websites are targeted at individuals. Thousands of people will visit the DfT website to renew their road tax every day.

      On the other hand, does the food standards agency really need its own website, updated daily with separate pages for Scotland and Wales? Couldn't this be combined with several others into a single government information site? Does Ofsted really need a team of 4 to keep its website up to date? Some of these departments spend a few thousand outsourcing. Great! Can others? Well worth considering.

      And even the ones that do provide a single reference for a handful of multi-million pound companies - can't they be made a little cheaper?

  5. Yes, well... by djupedal · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This 'revelation' is simply another illustration of how bureaucracy works.

    No one should be surprised to find competing layers of effort, working from silos, oblivious to duplication of effort when they look at this.

    It's a symptom, not the issue. It's how govt. works.

    Good luck making any effective changes at the delivery level...

    1. Re:Yes, well... by Hognoxious · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's a symptom, not the issue. It's how govt. works.

      Big corporations - especially ones that have grown through acquisition - aren't that different.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  6. Dear slashdot.org by mysidia · · Score: 4, Funny

    I regret to inform you, that the UK government has recently begun conducting a review of 820 websites, and your web site is to be terminated immediately, due to excessive costs to the taxpayers.

    The UK Central Office of Information recently revealed the high cost per visitor of £11.78 to our websites.

    Your recent article linked to the BBC, making your web site part of ours. The BBC.CO.UK received nearly 100 million page views, referred by the slashdot.org page, costing the taxpayer £1 billion.

    Therefore the Central Information Office has issued an order that slashdot.org be shut down immediately, as a cost saving measure. Please comply, or the ramifications could be dire.

  7. Axe them? by rudy_wayne · · Score: 2, Funny

    " UK Gov't To Review Hundreds of Websites, Axe Many of Them"

    Axe them? Axe them what?

  8. It's about time... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I worked in local government from 2005 to 2009 where I was involved with the 'Priority Service Outcomes' basically a list of targets with a value attached; if you do x number of these you'll get to keep a boat-load of money from central government. We were quite a small council and I built a website and CMS which met the targets of guidelines; I used all open-source tools and implemented things in a very standards compliant way. Other councils I met with (we all had the same targets) were spending £100K+ on proprietary systems and adopting non-standard approaches. It's pretty criminal really; ~450 councils in the UK all going off in different directions and spending the same amount of money. Whitehall should have spent £200K on open-source projects such as Drupal or Django and an army of volunteers through sponsorship; they'd have a much better system with no waste and no repeat of effort, not to mention the improvements that could be brought back to the projects themselves.

    I left the public sector very frustrated; jobs for the boys. There's a lot of talented people in local government, but, they're usually not at the top which is full of lifers with no ambition or clue.

  9. Contradiction is welcome by mangu · · Score: 2, Interesting

    some sites directly compete and have contradictory information

    And that's the way I like it!

    The kind of country where contradiction is not welcome is not the country where I'd want to live. There may be pros and cons to eating chips or fries, and I think the government should release all that data and let the public decide.

    Think of your mini-rant on how that food is called. What would you say if some "Royal Council on Nutrition Terminology" decided that "chips" should be called "fries"? Geroge Gershwin said it best:

    "You like potato and I like potahto,
      You like tomato and I like tomahto;
      Potato, potahto, tomato, tomahto!
      Let's call the whole thing off!"

     

  10. promoting chips? by pbhj · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It's not the contradiction that gets me - it's that anyone in gov thinks that it's necessary to promote eating chips.

    Every town has several chip shops, most pubs and restaurants serve them, all the supermarkets sell them surveys show that people are eating them several times a week and some people at every (non-breakfast) meal time. They are considerably less healthy than other options ... so government are spending money promoting them and hiring (C-list) celebs to do videos and such.

    There can be no one in Britain that lacks knowledge of chips.

    The other more general issue I have is that the gov do individual tendering and have individual web departments to manage all those sites - they should just use a standard couple of CMSs across gov. They don't need to brand everything or have bespoke sites all the time. They should be providing information not marketing things to us.

  11. compared this to my blog by pbhj · · Score: 2, Informative

    My blog had 280357 visits in the last year - that means if it were a gov site it would have cost £3.3 Million GBP to upkeep.

    Actual costs assuming I'm paid £20 per hour, so est. £40 per hour employer costs, would be less than £2k for sure. If you assume those costs include all background research and what have you then maybe it would be as much £4k.