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France Says D-Star Ham Radio Mode Is Illegal

gyrogeerloose writes "Citing 'national security concerns,' the French Autorité de Régulation des Communications Électroniques et des Postes (ARCEP, France's equivalent of the US's FCC) has ruled that D-Star, an amateur radio digital signal mode used world-wide, is illegal because it could allow operators to connect to the Internet.The ARCEP also cites alleged concerns regarding cryptography and national security as well as the use of a proprietary codec. While it's true that the D-Star codec is proprietary, its owner has openly licensed it (for a fee, of course) to any manufacturer who wants to build it into their equipment. Any licensed amateur radio operator who lives within the EU can sign an online petition protesting this decision."

39 of 282 comments (clear)

  1. ... and Winlink 2000? by dtmos · · Score: 5, Interesting

    So how does Winlink 2000, a digital protocol (using a patented codec, too, I think) that supplies email service over the amateur shortwave bands, escape notice? It's a lot harder to communicate a significant distance at the VHF and UHF ranges typically used by D-Star than the HF bands used by Winlink systems.

    The ways of bureaucracies are often mysterious.

    1. Re:... and Winlink 2000? by Nimey · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Follow the money. Anybody in power in France have a financial interest in not allowing this mode of communication?

      --
      Hail Eris, full of mischief...

      E pluribus sanguinem
  2. every modulation method can be 'net-connected by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    What is the /real/ reason for this law, please, French hams?

    1. Re:every modulation method can be 'net-connected by bsDaemon · · Score: 5, Funny

      The French are afraid their net-connected hams will offend Pakistan.

    2. Re:every modulation method can be 'net-connected by symes · · Score: 3, Funny

      They've got some serious beef with the hams

    3. Re:every modulation method can be 'net-connected by Tekfactory · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But this unsecured link is legal everywhere but France, so the French could not shut down a link in Belgium, Spain, the UK, or anywhere else nearby that wants to host one.

    4. Re:every modulation method can be 'net-connected by TheRaven64 · · Score: 5, Funny

      Where do you draw the line?

      Along the eastern border with Germany, but not extending all of the way to Belgium.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    5. Re:every modulation method can be 'net-connected by Isaac-1 · · Score: 4, Funny

      The better question is where does Germany want to draw its eastern border?

  3. Wait, What? by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    "illegal because it could allow operators to connect to the Internet."

    Surfing the web is a crime in France?

    1. Re:Wait, What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      As a ham in the U.S., I can tell you that here, there is a severe restriction on communication in that no commercial messages may be relayed. It took years for the FCC to grant an exemption to allow hams to autopatch to order pizza.

      As far as I know, there's no exemption for ads (adsense or otherwise), which would severely restrict what traffic you could have over the session. IRC MOTDs that advertise the hosting service? AdSense web ads? Nope, nope.

    2. Re:Wait, What? by Brett+Buck · · Score: 3, Insightful

      He doesn't understand the issue, so he asked a question. Sorry that offends your sensibilities.

    3. Re:Wait, What? by mikael · · Score: 4, Informative

      France takes their mobile phones communications very seriously - you have to provide a photocopy of your ID just to get a Mobicarte (Pay-As-You-Go) SIM card. Even then it will be deactivated if you don't use it after three months.

      I get the impression they really want to know the identity of anyone who surfs the web.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    4. Re:Wait, What? by LWATCDR · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I didn't think of those. I just thought of the issue of SSL across the radio.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    5. Re:Wait, What? by Junior+Samples · · Score: 4, Informative

      And why is connecting amateur radio equipment to the internet illegal?

      Amateur radio operators have been using the internet as a transport and control link for many years. An example of this is Echolink: http://www.echolink.org/

      Amateur radio connectivity to the internet is not illegal in most if not all of the remaining world. I don't know why France would be any different.

    6. Re:Wait, What? by dtmos · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Be thankful it is how it is. If commercial interests got access to the amateur bands, they'd push individual "amateurs" out. Just imagine if the bands were crowded with business traffic, with powerful stations paid for by commercial interests. The regular Joe would never be able to get through the din.

      Historically, that's the reason the word "amateur" is in "amateur radio" -- to differentiate the service from "commercial radio", which is nearly everything else.

    7. Re:Wait, What? by vlm · · Score: 3, Informative

      I have some dstar gear. Note that there isn't "A" dstar mode. Its more of a family of related modulations and operations, kind of like ISDN was. I'd be interested in knowing which specific modes and types of operation are banned. Or perhaps they all are, under different rules/interpretations.

      There's two types of "connect to internet" that dstar gear can do.

      1) The numerous VHF/UHF radio repeaters Usually (but not always) are set up connected to the internet to carry voice. There are several competitors that do almost exactly the same thing. Echolink, IRLP, Yaesu's WIREs thing, probably others. If France has banned Echolink, IRLP, etc, then this is the reason. I have an IC-92AD and a IC-800.

      2) There is ONE radio ID-1 operating on the 1296 MHz band that, in addition to doing voice, can additionally do a medium speed/medium range IP network. Again, usually connected to the internet at the repeater side, although certainly not always.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    8. Re:Wait, What? by HungryHobo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I wonder if they're going to ban carrier pidgeons as well since they also allow connections to the net.
      http://www.blug.linux.no/rfc1149/

      They seem to be claiming that it would allow somone to set up an unofficial ISP.

      By that kind of logic just about anything at all could be used to connect to the internet.

      If I was a big electronics geek I could theoretically set up a pair of toy laser pointers + some light sensors to allow me to relay internet traffic by line of sight (with crappy bandwidth) but that wouldn't be that much more complex than what they seem to be talking about.

      Hell you could set up a piece of string with some motors and sensors to relay ip data IPOP (IP Over Pullies)

    9. Re:Wait, What? by Minwee · · Score: 5, Funny

      He doesn't understand the issue, so he asked a question. Sorry that offends your sensibilities.

      Clearly he doesn't understand the way we do things here. If you don't understand the issue, pretend that you do. If you do understand the issue, read the other comments, hold your head in your hands and rock back and forth hoping that the pain will stop.

    10. Re:Wait, What? by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 4, Informative

      Things forbidden over ham radio in the US:
      1) Encryption (Spread spectrum is a bit of a grey area here, some consider it "encryption", also some radio systems use scrambling codes for "whitening" data patterns. In general, "whitening" scramblers were OK as long as they were fully documented, spread spectrum is a pain in the !*@#)!*$#@! regulation-wise)
      2) Broadcast is forbidden with a few exceptions. (Repeater IDs, for example. APRS is also kosher. Broadcasting anything like a "radio show" is not. In the digital age it's a bit grey, but in general sustained transmissions are not kosher, but brief bursts (IDing, position reports) are OK.
      3) Commercial usage is forbidden. It used to be that if there was ANYTHING commercial about a transmission it was illegal, however a decade or two ago the US changed rules so that it was OK as long as none of the radio operators involved were benefiting financially. The main effect of this difference is that it used to be illegal to order pizza through an autopatcher (Allows a ham to make phone calls from their radio via a gateway, usually located at a repeater site), now it is legal. I think it was primarily done so that hams supporting emergency/even communications could order food for emergency/volunteer event workers. In France they may still use the old-style rules.

      --
      retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
    11. Re:Wait, What? by vlm · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Be thankful it is how it is. If commercial interests got access to the amateur bands, they'd push individual "amateurs" out. Just imagine if the bands were crowded with business traffic, with powerful stations paid for by commercial interests. The regular Joe would never be able to get through the din.

      Yeah, like winlink on 20M HF (ducks from the flames while running). Seriously funny how well your description matches winlink, which in my opinion spends most (all?) of its time dangerously close to breaking the law.

      Also your quotes apply to the semi-professional affiliated emcomm types pretty well, too. Pretty much any emcomm involving "memorandum of understanding" and florescent orange safety vests.

      Which is probably why those two groups are so ... strongly debated, in some circles. But dstar is not debated so much. Odd.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    12. Re:Wait, What? by vlm · · Score: 3, Informative

      You can buy a phone and pre-paid minutes in the US for cash.

      Without any ID whatsoever?

      Yes. Walk right into walmart / walgreens / target, pick up a prepaid phone, and a prepaid balance card, pay cash, walk out.

      I have a prepaid phone, I could do this if I cared to. I use a CC online to "top up" but I am well aware of the marketplace and whats available.

      Previous attempts to get rid of this have been blocked by our extremely large illegal alien community as being discriminatory against them. You see, if someone's here illegally either they won't be able to get a contract phone due to complete lack of records, or they'll steal someone elses credit info to get one.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    13. Re:Wait, What? by phyrexianshaw.ca · · Score: 3, Informative

      you've never been to a small city then?

      in most walmart like stores in small town's, the security it up to the local manager depending on need. as most stores only see a few hundred people a day, they often pass on video security.

      just because it's hard to get something in a store in DETROIT, doesn't mean that you can't drive an hour to JACKSON and get the same product for the same price, without somebody even so much as coughing at you, let alone MIND if you clear out the rack of 12+ identical mobile phones.

  4. simple solution by sunking2 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Tell them it is being used to fix their football program.

  5. D-Star sucks by MaggieL · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I've got nothing good to say about D-Star until the voice CODEC is free-to-use. That's not amateur radio. As it stand now, D-STAR simply means "made by ICOM"...even the Kenwood-badged D-STAR radios are in fact manufactured by ICOM.

    de K3XS

    --
    -=Maggie Leber=-
  6. Why now? by red_dragon · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Did they just now figure out that IP, and thus the Internet, can be routed over ham radio? Have they never heard of AMPRnet? How about AX.25? I was able to get (very very slow) Internet access back in 1997 with a KPC-3, an old Yaesu HT, and the Linux AX.25 stack.

    Methinks some PHB at France Telecom just got wind of it and is throwing a hissy fit.

    --
    In Soviet Russia, Jesus asks: "What Would You Do?"
    1. Re:Why now? by Eric+Green · · Score: 5, Informative

      I am on a D-STAR discussion list. Apparently the issue is that D-STAR has not previously been an allowed digital mode in France, and there is an old time neanderthal HF ham radio guy in their radio regulatory department (the type of guy who believes ham radio died the moment there was no longer a requirement to build your own HF morse code transceiver in order to get a ham license) who does not believe that *any* digital modes should be allowed who is now in a position to block the adoption of new digital modes. Check out this list of a large number of digital modes that are banned in France (note that this page is in French, but if you are American you should be able to read the huge number of disallowed modes, and the much smaller number of allowed modes at the end). In any event, the whole "can be routed over the Internet" thingy is a base canard being used by this old-school guy to disallow digital modes, rather than the real reason, so ... (shrug).

      --
      Send mail here if you want to reach me.
  7. Sacré bleu ! by ImNotAtWork · · Score: 3, Funny

    Wait 'til they find about IP over pigeon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IP_over_Avian_Carriers .

    Honey get out the Gordon Ramsay recipes for pigeons shot out of the sky for internet connection violations.

    --
    open source sub sim. I might start coding again for this. http://dangerdeep.sourceforge.net/contribute/
  8. Packet Radio is ALREADY on the Internet by laing · · Score: 3, Insightful
    AMPRnet has been around for 20 years. There are hundreds (maybe thousands now?) of TCP/IP nodes worldwide that provide a gateway between AMPRnet (44.0.0.0/24) and the Internet. The two nearest to me are at Cal Tech and UCSD. The TRW ARC used to have one too. I'm not sure if it is still operating.

    The French have basically outlawed something because of interoperability. The D-Star stuff can be networked. They could have simply said "Don't connect it to the Internet" instead of making it illegal to use.

  9. Where's the petition for to praise the decision? by Eric+Smith · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Some of us licensed hams think that allowing a proprietary protocol/codec on the amateur bands is a crock of shit. Where's the petition to praise the decision? (I'm licensed, but I'm not in the EU.)

    In the US, I would argue that using D-Star on amateur radio is already illegal, under Title 47 part 97(a)(4). Since the codec is proprietary, and documentation on the encoded format is not available, the use of the code is clearly an attempt to obscure the meaning of the communication from anyone that doesn't buy D-Star equipment that contains the proprietary codec.

    Eric Smith
    N2ES

  10. Re:Where's the petition for to praise the decision by Eric+Smith · · Score: 4, Informative

    Sorry, that's Part 97.113(a)(4).

  11. Acronyms by Silentknyght · · Score: 4, Funny

    ...the French Autorité de Régulation des Communications Électroniques et des Postes...

    They had to add in the regular mail, you see, else the acronym could have been "FARCE"...

  12. Using That Logic PACTOR Should Be Illegal Too... by xquercus · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Using PACTOR III it is possible to (1) connect to the Internet. It is (2) unencrypted and not only (3) proprietary -- it's sole source is SCS. Applying the same logic which prohibits the use of D-Star, PAC III stations should be prohibited too.

  13. Some explanation by godrik · · Score: 3, Informative

    French here giving some explanation (all obtained from the document sent by ARCEP. I have no special knowledge on the subject)

    In france, you need an authorization from ARCEP to broadcast radio amateur signals.
    The article does not says that D-Star is illegal, just that they are not authorizing it on radio amateur.
    The reason why they are not authorizing it is that radio amateur can not be connected to any other communication network (By law), except for some temporary pedagical explanation.

    In fact radio amateur are design to learn and study about radio signals. Therefore communication over a radio amateur is not permitted.

    The bottom line is that this prohibition is only radio amateur signals. If you are licensed, you are not amateur an can do it. If it is not on radio amateur frequencies (such as IP-over-pidgeon or IP-over-yelling as suggested by other slashdotters) then this decision does not apply.

  14. good! by yyxx · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Amateur radio should only use open standards, codecs, and protocols; anything else should not be allowed on the air and people using anything else should lose their license.

    There really is no reason to use anything proprietary anyway: the necessary technologies and protocols have been known for a while.

  15. French Fag POV by Beretta+Vexe · · Score: 4, Informative

    1. Internet, the ARCEP warn the HAM operator about the legislation. If you want to run a public telecommunication service you must conform to the pretty heavy legislation about it and it nearly impossible in the HAM environment. Plus HAM frequency aren't supposed to be connect to an open network for non HAM operator use.

    2. Cryptografic & National Security, In fact most french HAM operator i know are pretty free software enthusiast and most of them are again proprietary codec and close standard. We have a large number of guys developing mixed HAM/VOIP service with ASTERISK or other kind of crazy stuff. The ARCEP simply said that in the current state of the D-Star standard, It not possible to the ARCEP and other HAM operator to monitor what's going on the frequency.

    3. Patents, The standard is cover by many patent and that could be a problem for equal access and monitoring of the frequencies. In short, the ARCEP is again brand specific frequencies and standards for the HAM.

    If you can read the ARCEP response letter, the situation is pretty simple. A guy from the DR@F Digital HAM group asked for a authorization for experimental use of the D-Star frequences bands. The ARCEP gave the authorization for 6 months, they asked for up to 10 members authorization they get it and 6 more months. Then they ask for a France wide general authorization for all registered HAM operator. Then the ARCEP politely explain that clearly out of the experimentation range and that clearly another story. For the ARCEP amateur radio group are suppose to be amateur and can't start negotiation for a national wide deployment in place of the manufacturer or consortium behind the standard or the equipment.
    D-Star equipment manufacturer need to get in contact with the ARCEP to clarify some issue, like the patent and the possibility of interconnection with an open network ( internet, phone, etc. ). HAM frequence are suppose to be used only by and for registered HAM operator. You couldn't start your own nation wide pager network using HAM frequency.

    This seem pretty reasonable to me.

  16. Project to replace the proprietary codec by molo · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Bruce Perens, K6BP, proposed replacing the proprietary AMBE codec with a new open codec. David Rowe, VK5DGR, has strted a project to replace the codec, but needs support in order to continue.

    Anyone willing to help out or donate?

    -molo

    --
    Using your sig line to advertise for friends is lame.
  17. D-Star = pay-for-play by kd5sfk · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Good for the French! D-star is just another way to exclude everyone who doesn't want to plop down a kilobuck for their radio...much like "private" repeater organizations in the states. Amateur radio should be free and open to everyone, and D-star clearly doesn't fall into this category! 73, KD5SFK

  18. What's this crap about "bribes"? by Nicolas+MONNET · · Score: 3, Informative

    Arcep is a public service that does a good job overall. They have been single-handedly (well, pushed by the European Commission) responsible for opening up the local copper loop to competition, and as a result propelling us into the top 5 for broadband speed and availability. At the same time, the Bush FCC, thanks to Verizon-ATT-cable "political contributions", which are but in name only *actual* bribes, made sure no such competition happened in the US.

  19. The French are right, but for the wrong reason by bkeahl · · Score: 3, Insightful

    As an amateur radio operator I've questioned how D-Star could be legal. In a nutshell, D-Star implements a method of encoding radio communications in a way that can also be interpreted as encrypted (ie WEP/wifi on steroids). Since the FCC and the ITU (international telecommunications union) dictate that "no encryption or other privacy techniques may be used".

    Since there is a proprietary chip made by a single manufacturer and a fee must be paid for the use then this would seem to violate the above rule. Every other digital and analog mode of communication is defined to the extent that an amateur radio operator could construct hardware to send, receive, encode, and decode the information ... except D-Star.

    However, the French couldn't see the big oak in front of them, they had to decide that their big brother authority is threatened.