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Toyota Sudden Acceleration Is Driver Error
phantomfive writes "The NHTSA has investigated data recorders from Toyota cars whose owners claimed to have crashed due to an accelerator error. They found that the throttles were wide open and the brakes weren't being pressed. The investigation looked at a sample of the cars, selected by the NHTSA." Jamie found this article with a superior headline at Balloon Juice.
... that the throttle and brake position logging was recording correct data. If there's a fault in the ECU or software, how can you guarantee the data logging is correct?
While this is a useful data point, it's not conclusive. If the root cause is some electronics error whose symptoms are a sudden acceleration and (according to two victims) no response to the brake, it's not surprising that the black box -- presumably using the exact same input controlling the engine -- would claim that the accelerator was fully pressed and the brake was untouched.
Or maybe it shows that they were taking the customers' complaints seriously before realising the obvious truth. This has happened to me before when I start trying to diagnose IT support issues based on what a user is saying, I expect something horrific has happened, but then when I actually go to their desk and ask them to demonstrate the problem then realise that they've just been using the wrong terminology or simply are idiots.
One user was complaining of a "blue screen of death!" on his computer and it just turned out that he hadn't turned his main monitor on, and the plain blue windows desktop was showing on his laptop's screen, which he assumed was the fabled BSOD.
which is totally what she said
Did any of the drivers, when they found that the car was not responding to them taking their foot from the accelerator, shift the car out of gear? You know, that position on the lever between "D" and "R"? One of the first things I was taught was to slow the car down in an emergency you put your right foot on the break pedal, pressing hard, and with your left foot, push the clutch pedal in all the way - that disconnects the engine from the driving wheels.
Now, I realize that most drivers in the US these days would recognize a clutch pedal or a manual gearbox if it hit them over the head - but in an automatic transmission the same principal applies - shift into neutral (and the "N" doesn't mean "Now we are almost ready to go"....)
I guess no one wants to make the point that poor driver training and lack of ability contributed to the accidents - hey, the ambulance chasing lawyers can't sue anyone over that, and besides, we can't have any restrictions on people driving (like, are they smart enough and capable of controlling a two ton vehicle that can travel at upwards of 80 miles an hour).
Does putting it in neutral make the brake work too? I didn't think it worked that way.
Tic-Tac-Toe, Global Thermonuclear War, and relationships all have the same winning move.
...Which may or may not work if the acceleration is in fact caused by a very faulty ECU, which also happens to be controlling your automatic transmission.
So you'd accept it if they came out with it the day after the allegations were raised? Or if they came out and said "Yes, Toyota's design was at fault" three years afterwards? Is the issue that they came out with an answer that's contrary to what you expected, or simply the amount of time that's elapsed before they came out with an answer? If it's the first, shame on you for not being willing to consider your biases. If it's the second, consider: when public safety is at risk, and you're not sure what's going on, you do several things: you look; you find evidence that tells you what's probably going on; and then you make a statement. If you make a statement before you have evidence to back it up, you're likely to find yourself paying very big dollars after a court case. The only statement you make without evidence is, "We don't know what's going on; we're looking into the matter." Other than something like that, you keep your trap shut, unless and until you have reasonably solid evidence to support your position. I don't care whether you're Toyota, the NHSTA, a grieving citizen, or the Man from Mars. Opening your mouth and not being able to substantiate what you're saying with reasonably reliable evidence is a one way ticket to bankruptcy.
Now, it's entirely possible that the data logging application is not being accurate - if it's logging the data after it's been through the computer that acts upon said data, then any issues with the computer will flow through to the data. If, on the other hand, it's entirely independent of the computer, then it's likely that it is indeed accurate. But as others have said, that's a pretty obvious possibility, and there's going to be checks done to refute it before relying upon that evidence.
From the article: Police in Sheboygan Falls, Wis., investigated and believe driver error was to blame, Chief Steven Riffel said Tuesday. He said surveillance video showed that the brake lights didn't illuminate until after the crash. But Mr. Riffel said that determination is preliminary and that his agency has turned over the investigation to NHTSA. Based on the black box data, NHTSA investigators found that the brake was not engaged and the throttle was wide open, according to a person familiar with the matter. Ms. Marseille sticks by her story. "It makes me very angry when someone tells me, 'She probably hit the gas pedal instead,' because I think it's a sexist comment, an ageist comment," she said.
Brake lights are controlled by a simple switch in the brake assembly. Regardless of how much TOyota may have jacked up the throttle system I doubt they were able to screw that up too. Sounds like most these idiots are too stupid to own a car
Nuclear war would really set back cable. - Ted Turner
Conspiracy theories aside (is your tinfoil hat on too tight?) I think you can attribute the government response to the issue as a ploy to prop up GM in tough times, but to say the government/GM/illuminati/bilderbergs/aliens/freemasons concocted the entire fiasco is a bit of a stretch... even for the level-headed *ahem* folks who frequent slashdot. :)
:)
Mainly I feel the conspiracy isn't all that profoundly deep in this because that this is the government we're talking about after all... what other bunch of bumbling idiots like the government do you know have the gray matter to pull this sort of thing off? The government is evil in many ways... but in many ways its just a fat retard who eats paste... In other words, we're giving these mouth-breathers WAY too much credit.
It's the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man.
Just to play devil's advocate for a sec, America is the land of the automatic gearbox. In those other countries, the average Toyota is likely to have an extra pedal that can conveniently cut the drive to the wheels: the clutch.
Could the popularity of automatics in the US have a bearing on the rate of accidents?
I personally do think this is an issue that has been blown out of proportion by those looking to cash in on it, for the various reasons proposed in this discussion: business interests of non-Toyota companies, people looking to shirk responsibility for accidents they have caused, people looking to profit from legal action, etc..
Car analogies break down.
If it was purely driver error it would show up on quite a variety of cars, not just specific Toyota models.
Unless the heavy news coverage resulted in a bandwagon effect.
Notice that all the problems happened at around the same time. It's not a constant failure rate.
The problem caused a massive amount of publicity and public awareness. Toyota drivers would most likely see problems where before they'd just shrug and carry on. I bet you'd see a similar effect for any manufacturer if you could create a suitable media storm.
No sig today...
If there was a fault in the electronics, the data recorders could be recording incorrect data. If anything, this raises more questions. It is completely out of the ordinary for a driver to have the throttle wide open under any circumstances. And for it to be happening to so many drivers, is very suspicious.
Proverbs 21:19
Because there's a significant age correlation to these reports of sudden acceleration.
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/columns/OpEd-Contributor/I-am-not-afraid-of-my-Toyota-Prius-87361597.html
http://www.thecarconnection.com/marty-blog/1043440_toyota-sudden-acceleration-is-it-all-older-drivers-fault
Not definitive, but enlightening. Another group also proved that a runaway car with open throttle can still be stopped by the brakes anyway - they tried it with multiple cars - even a 500+ horsepower car.
The driver might give up on trying the brakes after the brake fade and focus on steering alone. Obviously these people that have these accidents have fallen into some kind of hopeless submission or they would try things like shifting into neutral... it's not unreasonable that someone who has given up enough to not even try to kill the engine or shift to have also given up on the brakes.
I get the impression that a lot of these situations are not long enough to run through options. They're usually described as "sudden acceleration", and in what looks like the majority of cases, while trying to park. If you're running down the highway and are having a loss of accelerator control, ok, options - brake, shift, ignition, ebrake, etc. But when you all of a sudden are zooming toward a parked car 6ft in front of you, it's just a matter of the right or wrong reaction. If your foot is on what you thought was the brake, and you tried to slow down and suddenly accelerate, there's a fair chance you will press harder on what you thought was the brake, there's just no time to stop and think about where your foot is, you have to take action immediately. That's almost certainly what's been happening here. That last gal in the article, the ramp cameras show her brake lights coming on AFTER the collision. That was a case of the driver realizing their foot was jamming on the wrong petal a second too late. (and she STILL doesn't admit to it, despite the camera evidence!)
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
So some dude rewired the car to short out the throttle position sensor? And then was shocked when it worked?
Basically he is saying that damaged wiring would prevent electronic records of a malfunction. But, duh, if there is damaged wiring before the accident, then there would still be damaged wiring after the accident, and Toyota/NHTSA would be able to find the problem.
hurr durr I'm a professor derp derp derp.
Let's see... Mechanical linkage brake failure, but magically works right after accident. Brake lights fail, but work fine after accident. Driver reports pushing hard on "brake", yet ECU reports throttle at full open. It is demonstrable that at highway speeds full throttle and full brake at the same time will slow and eventually stop the vehicle.
Yep, sounds like manufacturing problem...
Well, yeah, why not? It would be utterly unspeakably stupid of them to lie about something like that, given that they are facing lawsuits where any lie that gets caught out will basically mean they lose instantly and face punitive damages.