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Toyota Sudden Acceleration Is Driver Error

Posted by kdawson on from the fed-findings-fault-fat-feet dept.

phantomfive writes "The NHTSA has investigated data recorders from Toyota cars whose owners claimed to have crashed due to an accelerator error. They found that the throttles were wide open and the brakes weren't being pressed. The investigation looked at a sample of the cars, selected by the NHTSA." Jamie found this article with a superior headline at Balloon Juice.

32 of 930 comments (clear)

  1. This assumes... by Gordonjcp · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ... that the throttle and brake position logging was recording correct data. If there's a fault in the ECU or software, how can you guarantee the data logging is correct?

    1. Re:This assumes... by IflyRC · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I would think that verifying the validity of the data would be one of the first things they would do in a study such as this. This question would most likely be proposed in any aircraft crash situation as well when the black box is checked. If this study is right - it sounds almost like a bandwagon effect where everyone was trying to get out of higher insurance premiums, out of fault from an accident they potentially caused, etc. It's a lot easier to say "It wasn't me, it was my Toyota!" than "My bad, it was my fault. I'll take responsibility for pulling out in front of you."

    2. Re:This assumes... by vlm · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If this study is right - it sounds almost like a bandwagon effect

      Exactly. The Fine Article fails to raise that point, yet tantalizingly provides a graph of the number of reported complaints which follows a short term fad trajectory. Logically, if there were a bad batch of parts out there, the graph of the cars manufacture date vs complaints would look like that graph. Or if it were a bad design, the graph would resemble the very long term model year production graphs not a short term PR graph.

      The only common feature of the problem seems to be that people whom crashed their Toyota during certain months were very likely to blame the car. Basically just a witch hunt. I feel confident driving my wife's Toyota.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    3. Re:This assumes... by maxume · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If 1 in 100,000 people cannot properly operate a device, it might be fair to conclude that the problem is with the people.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    4. Re:This assumes... by socrplayr813 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Given how many times things like this have happened, you're probably right. However, we also know the first part is true. There are some truly stupid people, as well as other people that just plain shouldn't be driving for various reasons. I'd like to see/hear/read some better evidence one way or the other.

      I do similar types of investigations for my job and almost everything I've seen so far (from both camps) is circumstantial and/or loaded with assumptions. Surely there must be SOME relationship between the cars this has happened with. If there is, we have our first step to recreating the problem in a controlled environment. Until we can do that...

      Actually, have any of these types of accidents happened in the rest of the world? I don't recall hearing/reading about them.

      --
      The confidence of ignorance will always overcome the indecision of knowledge.
    5. Re:This assumes... by Another,+completely · · Score: 5, Insightful

      But if the failure rate is lower on similar devices from other manufacturers, then it could have been designed better.

      Either there are so many Toyotas out there that they are showing up a general problem with people (all the other manufacturers sell so few cars that their uncontrolled acceleration problems don't count as a trend), or a disproportionate number of bad drivers buy Toyotas (the failure rates for different populations do not offer a fair comparison), or there is a problem with the car.

      It's also possible that the failure rate on other vehicles is the same, but that fact just hasn't been noticed by the media. I would have expected Toyota to point that one out by now, if it were the case.

    6. Re:This assumes... by Maury+Markowitz · · Score: 5, Insightful

      > Surely there must be SOME relationship between the cars this has happened with

      Why would you possibly suggest that?

      This happens all the time. There's a news story, and then suddenly everyone's complaining about the same thing. It doesn't make a difference if it's actually _true_.

      Its called "mass hysteria", although the term should be changed to be less loaded. But the effect is real, has been measured for hundreds of years, and effects practically all human endeavor equally.

      Maury

    7. Re:This assumes... by Maury+Markowitz · · Score: 5, Informative

      > I don't recall hearing/reading about them.

      Oh please... google up "sudden acceleration".

      One of the stories this will turn up is the recall of Audi 5000's in the 1980s. 60 Minutes covered the story and claimed to demonstrate the effect. They actually faked it with a compressed air bottle.

      This topic has come up dozens of times, on dozens of models, in dozens of countries. To date, 100% of the time it's driver error.

      Maury

    8. Re:This assumes... by Captain+Hook · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There is another issue to be considered as well, if some of these accidents happened after the publicity started, then its possible some of the accidents are attempts at fraud and the driver has deliberately rammed someone/thing

      --
      These comments are my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the other voices in my head.
    9. Re:This assumes... by Stewie241 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's also possible that we're hearing about it with Toyota's because of the initial media report. This could have led to many people who got into accidents in their Toyota's to go public with a report to try and shift the blame off of themselves and onto the car. Also, the media, knowing there is a hot Toyota story, was actively looking for these sorts of incidents and could have imposed a bias.

      Meanwhile, the same things could have been happening in other cars (again, driver error) at the same rate but nobody really reported them because there wasn't already a story to piggyback on.

    10. Re:This assumes... by BasilBrush · · Score: 5, Informative

      NEITHER can be presumed. Toyota, you don't get out of this THAT easily.

      RTFA:

      "The data recorders analyzed by NHTSA were selected by the agency, not Toyota, based on complaints the drivers had filed with the government. Toyota hasn't been involved in interpreting the data."

      and

      "Still, since the start of Toyota's troubles late last summer, the Japanese company hasn't blamed drivers for any of the sudden-acceleration incidents, though in many cases the company couldn't find another cause. Toyota President Akio Toyoda has said the company won't pin the blame on customers for its problems as part of its public-relations response.

      "An attorney who represents four drivers who sued Toyota in state courts over sudden acceleration said the NHTSA finding doesn't mean much for his litigation. "Toyota has always taken the position that the electronic data recorder system is not reliable," said Tab Turner, the Little Rock, Ark., lawyer.

      "A Toyota spokesman said the company considers the device "a prototype tool. It wasn't designed to tell us exactly what happened in an accident. It was designed to tell us whether our systems were operating properly.""

      Toyota aren't "trying to get out of it that easily". They appear to have behaved commendably.

    11. Re:This assumes... by GizmoToy · · Score: 5, Informative

      This has happened with all automakers. Every automaker that I can think of has had a recall for floor mats interfering with the accelerator pedal. Honda had so many it redesigned the pedals on the new Civic to pivot from the floor instead of the firewall so the mats can't get under them.

      This is just for model year 2009, I've seen more complete tables as well...
      Unintended Acceleration - All Brands

      Toyota got nailed because it got a lot of publicity. The other brands are all nervously waiting for someone to point the finger at them, knowing they all have these complaints... even with mounting evidence that it's driver error.

    12. Re:This assumes... by BasilBrush · · Score: 4, Informative

      So, the state cop that died with his family in California couldn't tell the difference between a break and gas pedal over the course of the time it took to call 911?

      No, that particular crash happened because the accelerator got stuck under the floor mat. That is one of the two categories of actual hardware errors that have been identified and is mentioned in TFA in addition to user error. Of course TFS doesn't mention it because as usual, slashdot is trolling for views and comments.

    13. Re:This assumes... by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Actually, the very first article I saw that suggested the "driver error" explanation gave a demographic of the drivers involved in these cases. The author of that article had done a similar investigation for a different car company (I forget now if he was hired by the car company--Audi, I beleive--or if he was hired by an outside agency) that had had reports of a similar problem except with cars using mechanical throttles and brakes rather than computer controlled. He discovered that the demographics of those with the problem with the Toyotas was the same as in the previous case, overwhelmingly people in their 60s and/or teens. The other thing he discovered about the Toyota cases is that the overwhelming majority happened when the car was starting out from a complete stop (parked, traffic light) which was also the same as in the previous case he had studied.
      Basically, in the previous case that involved mechanical linkages they were able to determine that there were no possible mechanical expalnations for the sudden acceleration when the driver stepped on the brake. He was able to find medical explanations that would acount for otherwise experienced safe drivers suddenly starting to hit the accelerator when they meant to hit the brakes, this accounted for a large number of the cases, most of the other cases involved young, inexperienced drivers or drivers who were driving the vehicle for the first time,

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    14. Re:This assumes... by Mitsoid · · Score: 4, Informative

      To quote without citation... Recently on my news local radio station (WTOP; long operating and trusted source for those that don't know it) they had a phone-in guest that spoke on the issue after reviewing the wall street journal article..

      He stated that the "Black box" in the cars are not always triggered.. The black box also relies on computer/electronic signals to activate the recording. As the issue with the throttle acceleration is electronic in nature, the cause of many of the accidents may also not trigger the recording. It also apparently does not activate at low speeds (exact definition of 'low speeds' or if it also excludes 'low starting speeds' was not given)

      The accidents that don't trigger the recording were not part of the sample group evaluated by the article. The WSJ Quotes toyota claiming the black box is a prototype... and the radio speaker also stated that Toyota testified in court that the "Black Box" is not in and of itself reliable for determining the cause of an accident as it's prone to failure as, already mentioned, it relies on electronic signals from the car.

      My opinion: Granted, all that said, I'm sure there's people who just want a piece of the lawsuit pie and are trying to shift blame ("I swear I hit the brakes and not the accelerator") and this article *can* support that to some degree... Though, there are likely legitimate claims --- back to the radio report; the electronic 'fail safe' system apparently is not very robust at handling failures of signals (either lack of, or improper signals) from the car...

      Lastly, from what I've heard these are cherry-picked by Toyota and the radio station speaker stated that there is evidence by Toyota technicians a problem does exist (contrary to the article) -- however he feels this is simply the Public Relations team of Toyota doing it's job and showing that there's no issue (or the issue is more rare than news credits due to 'false claims').

      Side note: the WSJ claims a similar problem arose in 1989
      Side note 2: I'm simply trying to relay what I heard as criticism to the article to provide an alternate viewpoint/more information. I personally do not own a Toyota/Lexus, and otherwise am not attempting to defame anyone/start a debate on the issue.

    15. Re:This assumes... by Shakrai · · Score: 4, Insightful

      there's at least a chance that you'll be able to defend yourself against such Islamic pedo fucktards who would try and silence you with violence.

      Thank god for the 2nd amendment....

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    16. Re:This assumes... by Kreigaffe · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And during the course of dialing 911 and explaining his problem nobody in the car ever thought to shift the car into neutral.

      That tends to solve uncontrolled acceleration problems easily and quickly.

      And, yes, I would be inclined to believe that someone who couldn't think of that may indeed have a problem telling the difference between the brake and gas pedals.

      --
      ... still waiting for this free-as-in-beer free beer I keep hearing about. :|
    17. Re:This assumes... by PopeRatzo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And my point isn't that a failure rate of 1 in 100,000 is obviously low enough to indicate a reasonable design, just that it may be low enough to indicate a reasonable design that is occasionally overcome by a user.

      Tell me, swami, would 1 in 50,000 be low enough? Would 1 in 10,000? How about 1 in 1000. I mean if only 1 in 1000 fails, it would seem to be a reasonable design.

      Nosiree, it's not that 1 in 100,000 failed and caused an accident, it's that there were 3000 reports of sudden acceleration. When that many people, even out of 10,000,000 vehicles have this dangerous situation, a manufacturer has a design problem on his hands.

      It's like saying, "Out of all the oil drilling in the Gulf, there was only this one major accident this year, therefore, deep-water drilling is perfectly safe, and you can't expect BP to have any liability. After all, it was a fault in the design of the floor of the Gulf of Mexico that really caused the problem."

      This news report is part of Toyota's public relations efforts in advance of dealing with the class action lawsuits. There's going to be more to the story.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    18. Re:This assumes... by AxemRed · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I agree.

      I have a 2009 Toyota Corolla. They have done two recall fixes. The first was the little metal piece that they inserted into the accelerator. Even after that fix was in place, there were still many reports of unintended acceleration, and the crisis was still escalating in the media. The second fix came later and was a software update that will stop the engine if the brakes and gas are fully pressed simultaneously (or at least, that's how it was described to me.) That second fix wasn't pushed out until reports of the problem were subsiding anyway, and it still didn't address any sort of cause.

      Despite the fact that no "real" fix was ever released, reports of unintended acceleration subsided. Problems like this don't fix themselves unless there was really no problem to begin with.

    19. Re:This assumes... by eln · · Score: 5, Informative
      The line you refer to was in Henry VI, and it was said during a comedic scene. Two characters are talking about what a utopia they would make England if they were in charge, with increasingly more absurd propositions like selling seven half-penny loaves for a penny, and making it a felony to drink "small" beer. This culminated in one of the characters saying "the first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers" as a sort of first step toward their imagined utopia. It was a laugh line, and one that probably resulted in uproarious laughter among the audience of the day. The line was immediately followed by this one:

      Nay, that I mean to do. Is not this a lamentable thing, that of the skin of an innocent lamb should be made parchment? that parchment, being scribbled o'er, should undo a man? Some say the bee stings: but I say, 'tis the bee's wax; for I did but seal once to a thing, and I was never mine own man since.- How now! who's there?

      Clearly, Shakespeare had no love for lawyers or legal proceedings, and it's fair to say his audience probably didn't either. Some lawyers have tried to frame this as actually complimentary to lawyers, arguing that Shakespeare framed the men who were having this conversation as villains, but I think that's looking too deeply into it. Shakespeare wrote for his audience, and that whole scene was obviously intended primarily as comic relief. Throwing in a lawyer joke was an easy way to get laughs then just as it is now. The line about a single sealed (signed) document making one not his own man any more is the sort of biting social commentary Shakespeare often slipped into his comedies.

  2. I am not surprised.... by Corporate+Troll · · Score: 5, Informative

    I am not surprised.... Same thing happened to Audi back in the day.

    One thing for me that was a dead giveaway was that every single report regarding the Toyota sudden acceleration issue happened in the good old United States (Same for Audi, by the way). Statistically, it's very unlikely that such a problem would only happen in a single country even though these cars do not differ significantly between different countries. You'd expect a few deaths in Japan, France, German, the United Kingdom where Toyota cars are also very popular.

    Too bad for Toyota that their brand has been permanently damaged in the US. (Just ask Audi how well it went for them the years after the accusations). GM, Ford and Chrysler are probably very happy about this.

    1. Re:I am not surprised.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      It's the NHTSA's line, not Toyota's.

    2. Re:I am not surprised.... by vlm · · Score: 4, Informative

      GM, Ford and Chrysler are probably very happy about this.

      Whom coincidentally spend lots of advertising dollars on the media people whom manufactured the Toyota problem.

      Even more interesting is the graph of reported problems. Fits a very short term PR profile not a manufacturing defect profile.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    3. Re:I am not surprised.... by SpazmodeusG · · Score: 4, Informative

      There were reports of stuck accelerators here in Australia for a while but it was the Fords not Toyotas.
      Basically some guy rang police up on the freeway and claimed his cruise control was stuck at 80. There was a police chase/escort and eventually he was stopped. Soon after the incident there was a ton of idiots all ringing up talkback radio for days on end claiming the same thing happened to them in their Fords and that's why they crashed or got a speeding fine.

      In the end the real storey started circulating. The guy who initially made the claim seemed to have issues. During the chase the police asked him to brake and he said it didn't work. They then asked him to change gear to neutral and he claimed it had no effect. They asked him to turn the key on a car with an old fashion manual key and he claimed that didn't work. His car was inspected afterwards and no fault was found.
      In the end the reports of problems quickly disappeared. All the bandwagon jumpers suddenly shut the hell up.
      http://news.drive.com.au/drive/motor-news/no-sign-of-cruisecontrol-faults-20100107-lwrq.html

  3. Not conclusive by OWJones · · Score: 5, Insightful

    While this is a useful data point, it's not conclusive. If the root cause is some electronics error whose symptoms are a sudden acceleration and (according to two victims) no response to the brake, it's not surprising that the black box -- presumably using the exact same input controlling the engine -- would claim that the accelerator was fully pressed and the brake was untouched.

  4. Re:my first thought was... by camperdave · · Score: 5, Funny

    Driver error... Great! So all Toyota needs to do is issue new drivers.

    --
    When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
  5. Almost Always User Error by gotpaint32 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    From the article: Police in Sheboygan Falls, Wis., investigated and believe driver error was to blame, Chief Steven Riffel said Tuesday. He said surveillance video showed that the brake lights didn't illuminate until after the crash. But Mr. Riffel said that determination is preliminary and that his agency has turned over the investigation to NHTSA. Based on the black box data, NHTSA investigators found that the brake was not engaged and the throttle was wide open, according to a person familiar with the matter. Ms. Marseille sticks by her story. "It makes me very angry when someone tells me, 'She probably hit the gas pedal instead,' because I think it's a sexist comment, an ageist comment," she said.

    Brake lights are controlled by a simple switch in the brake assembly. Regardless of how much TOyota may have jacked up the throttle system I doubt they were able to screw that up too. Sounds like most these idiots are too stupid to own a car

    --
    Nuclear war would really set back cable. - Ted Turner
  6. Bandwagon effect by Joce640k · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Notice that all the problems happened at around the same time. It's not a constant failure rate.

    The problem caused a massive amount of publicity and public awareness. Toyota drivers would most likely see problems where before they'd just shrug and carry on. I bet you'd see a similar effect for any manufacturer if you could create a suitable media storm.

    --
    No sig today...
    1. Re:Bandwagon effect by pnewhook · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Notice that all the problems happened at around the same time. It's not a constant failure rate.

      It's entirely possible that a couple of drivers did have a stuck throttle due to a floor mat or other issue. This made the news. Then a bunch of other people thought that this would be a great way to make money on a class action lawsuit by faking the same problem. It doesn't have to be a defect or bad drivers, just a bandwagon effect of people trying to scam money in tough times.

      --
      Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
  7. Car & Driver: Brakes overpower open throttle by businessnerd · · Score: 4, Informative

    I am not surprised with this outcome. I read an article from Car & Driver a while back where the specifically tested the scenario of trying to stop your car with the throttle wide open. Here's the link.
    br> Key facts:
    1) In a Toyota, shifting into neutral while the throttle is wide open, will disengage the engine from the transmission and slow the car down. So all of the people claiming that these cars are all computers and not mechanical so it still wouldn't work, are full of crap.
    2) They brought a standard Toyota Camry up to highway speed (including a 100 MPH test) and hit the brakes while still holding down the accelerator. The result? The brakes were able to overpower the engine and slow down the car. The faster your initial speed, the longer it took, but the distances, even at 100 MPH, were reasonably safe.

    C/D's conclusion without actually analyzing the specific reported incidents, was that the most likely cause of these accidents was driver error, specifically people hitting the gas instead of the brake. The natural instinct for any driver if a car starts accelerating uncontrollably is to hit the brakes, which C/D has shown is sufficient to slow the car on its own. If that wasn't sufficient, then the thing to do is to shift into neutral. This real data from the incidents seems to support the gas instead of brake theory, and the statistics showing a sharp spike (and subsequent sharp drop-off) in "unintended acceleration" incidents after Toyota instated the recall for sticky accelerators and at a time when the US auto industry has one foot in the grave, Toyota is looking more and more in the clear on this one.

    --
    "It's not whether you win or lose, it's how drunk you get." -- H. J. Simpson
  8. COMPETITORS DO HAVE PROBLEMS. LOTS... by doctor_no · · Score: 5, Informative

    Here's a list (SUA) sudden unintended acceleration complaints to the NHTSA

    http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/nhtsa-data-dive-3-117-models-ranked-by-rate-of-ua-incidents/
    http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/02/05/sudden.acceleration.fact.check/index.html

    Atop that, most of SUA complaints to the NHTSA are a sham.

    http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/89-dead-in-the-nhtsa-complaint-database-it%E2%80%99s-a-sham/

    Its not about a design flaw, some people are on their cell phone, distracted, and in some cases plain DRUNK. One Toyota SUA had a driver with a blood alcohol level of .103 (link above). Its easier to blame the car rather then admit you were drinking or were texting on the cellphone.

    In other cases it turned out to be a complete hoax (in the case of the California Prius incident):

    http://www.forbes.com/2010/03/12/toyota-autos-hoax-media-opinions-contributors-michael-fumento.html
    http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/fox-is-sikes-a-balloon-boy/

  9. Loaner Car and bad Interface Design by kris_lang · · Score: 4, Informative

    The 2009 Lexus ES 350 that California Highway Patrol Officer Mark Saylor was driving was a "loaner" vehicle given to him temporarily while his car was being repaired.

    It has a "starter button" instead of an ignition key, and requires that the bnutton be depressed for 3 or more seconds if the car is in gear, or it may not function to turn the car off at all over certain velocities.

    The shifter has a strange configuration which allows it to "emulate" a manual transmission while it is really an automatic transmission. The "N" position is also used to shift up a gear.
    You can almost make it out in this photo at http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/112_1004_2010_buick_lacrosse_2010_lexus_es_350_comparison/photo_22.html .

    Article about why the starter button and transmission human interface may have been factors in the officer not being able to get the car out of gear:


    http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/starter-button-a-factor-in-runaway-lexus-es350/

    Article about the crash :
    http://www.sandiego6.com/mostpopular/story/Santee-CHP-officer-Saylor-killed-Lexus-accelerator/AzYjOhtvFE2mIuxTtxrK4Q.cspx