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Toyota Sudden Acceleration Is Driver Error

Posted by kdawson on from the fed-findings-fault-fat-feet dept.

phantomfive writes "The NHTSA has investigated data recorders from Toyota cars whose owners claimed to have crashed due to an accelerator error. They found that the throttles were wide open and the brakes weren't being pressed. The investigation looked at a sample of the cars, selected by the NHTSA." Jamie found this article with a superior headline at Balloon Juice.

16 of 930 comments (clear)

  1. This assumes... by Gordonjcp · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ... that the throttle and brake position logging was recording correct data. If there's a fault in the ECU or software, how can you guarantee the data logging is correct?

    1. Re:This assumes... by IflyRC · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I would think that verifying the validity of the data would be one of the first things they would do in a study such as this. This question would most likely be proposed in any aircraft crash situation as well when the black box is checked. If this study is right - it sounds almost like a bandwagon effect where everyone was trying to get out of higher insurance premiums, out of fault from an accident they potentially caused, etc. It's a lot easier to say "It wasn't me, it was my Toyota!" than "My bad, it was my fault. I'll take responsibility for pulling out in front of you."

    2. Re:This assumes... by maxume · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If 1 in 100,000 people cannot properly operate a device, it might be fair to conclude that the problem is with the people.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    3. Re:This assumes... by Another,+completely · · Score: 5, Insightful

      But if the failure rate is lower on similar devices from other manufacturers, then it could have been designed better.

      Either there are so many Toyotas out there that they are showing up a general problem with people (all the other manufacturers sell so few cars that their uncontrolled acceleration problems don't count as a trend), or a disproportionate number of bad drivers buy Toyotas (the failure rates for different populations do not offer a fair comparison), or there is a problem with the car.

      It's also possible that the failure rate on other vehicles is the same, but that fact just hasn't been noticed by the media. I would have expected Toyota to point that one out by now, if it were the case.

    4. Re:This assumes... by Maury+Markowitz · · Score: 5, Insightful

      > Surely there must be SOME relationship between the cars this has happened with

      Why would you possibly suggest that?

      This happens all the time. There's a news story, and then suddenly everyone's complaining about the same thing. It doesn't make a difference if it's actually _true_.

      Its called "mass hysteria", although the term should be changed to be less loaded. But the effect is real, has been measured for hundreds of years, and effects practically all human endeavor equally.

      Maury

    5. Re:This assumes... by Maury+Markowitz · · Score: 5, Informative

      > I don't recall hearing/reading about them.

      Oh please... google up "sudden acceleration".

      One of the stories this will turn up is the recall of Audi 5000's in the 1980s. 60 Minutes covered the story and claimed to demonstrate the effect. They actually faked it with a compressed air bottle.

      This topic has come up dozens of times, on dozens of models, in dozens of countries. To date, 100% of the time it's driver error.

      Maury

    6. Re:This assumes... by Stewie241 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's also possible that we're hearing about it with Toyota's because of the initial media report. This could have led to many people who got into accidents in their Toyota's to go public with a report to try and shift the blame off of themselves and onto the car. Also, the media, knowing there is a hot Toyota story, was actively looking for these sorts of incidents and could have imposed a bias.

      Meanwhile, the same things could have been happening in other cars (again, driver error) at the same rate but nobody really reported them because there wasn't already a story to piggyback on.

    7. Re:This assumes... by BasilBrush · · Score: 5, Informative

      NEITHER can be presumed. Toyota, you don't get out of this THAT easily.

      RTFA:

      "The data recorders analyzed by NHTSA were selected by the agency, not Toyota, based on complaints the drivers had filed with the government. Toyota hasn't been involved in interpreting the data."

      and

      "Still, since the start of Toyota's troubles late last summer, the Japanese company hasn't blamed drivers for any of the sudden-acceleration incidents, though in many cases the company couldn't find another cause. Toyota President Akio Toyoda has said the company won't pin the blame on customers for its problems as part of its public-relations response.

      "An attorney who represents four drivers who sued Toyota in state courts over sudden acceleration said the NHTSA finding doesn't mean much for his litigation. "Toyota has always taken the position that the electronic data recorder system is not reliable," said Tab Turner, the Little Rock, Ark., lawyer.

      "A Toyota spokesman said the company considers the device "a prototype tool. It wasn't designed to tell us exactly what happened in an accident. It was designed to tell us whether our systems were operating properly.""

      Toyota aren't "trying to get out of it that easily". They appear to have behaved commendably.

    8. Re:This assumes... by GizmoToy · · Score: 5, Informative

      This has happened with all automakers. Every automaker that I can think of has had a recall for floor mats interfering with the accelerator pedal. Honda had so many it redesigned the pedals on the new Civic to pivot from the floor instead of the firewall so the mats can't get under them.

      This is just for model year 2009, I've seen more complete tables as well...
      Unintended Acceleration - All Brands

      Toyota got nailed because it got a lot of publicity. The other brands are all nervously waiting for someone to point the finger at them, knowing they all have these complaints... even with mounting evidence that it's driver error.

    9. Re:This assumes... by AxemRed · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I agree.

      I have a 2009 Toyota Corolla. They have done two recall fixes. The first was the little metal piece that they inserted into the accelerator. Even after that fix was in place, there were still many reports of unintended acceleration, and the crisis was still escalating in the media. The second fix came later and was a software update that will stop the engine if the brakes and gas are fully pressed simultaneously (or at least, that's how it was described to me.) That second fix wasn't pushed out until reports of the problem were subsiding anyway, and it still didn't address any sort of cause.

      Despite the fact that no "real" fix was ever released, reports of unintended acceleration subsided. Problems like this don't fix themselves unless there was really no problem to begin with.

    10. Re:This assumes... by eln · · Score: 5, Informative
      The line you refer to was in Henry VI, and it was said during a comedic scene. Two characters are talking about what a utopia they would make England if they were in charge, with increasingly more absurd propositions like selling seven half-penny loaves for a penny, and making it a felony to drink "small" beer. This culminated in one of the characters saying "the first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers" as a sort of first step toward their imagined utopia. It was a laugh line, and one that probably resulted in uproarious laughter among the audience of the day. The line was immediately followed by this one:

      Nay, that I mean to do. Is not this a lamentable thing, that of the skin of an innocent lamb should be made parchment? that parchment, being scribbled o'er, should undo a man? Some say the bee stings: but I say, 'tis the bee's wax; for I did but seal once to a thing, and I was never mine own man since.- How now! who's there?

      Clearly, Shakespeare had no love for lawyers or legal proceedings, and it's fair to say his audience probably didn't either. Some lawyers have tried to frame this as actually complimentary to lawyers, arguing that Shakespeare framed the men who were having this conversation as villains, but I think that's looking too deeply into it. Shakespeare wrote for his audience, and that whole scene was obviously intended primarily as comic relief. Throwing in a lawyer joke was an easy way to get laughs then just as it is now. The line about a single sealed (signed) document making one not his own man any more is the sort of biting social commentary Shakespeare often slipped into his comedies.

  2. I am not surprised.... by Corporate+Troll · · Score: 5, Informative

    I am not surprised.... Same thing happened to Audi back in the day.

    One thing for me that was a dead giveaway was that every single report regarding the Toyota sudden acceleration issue happened in the good old United States (Same for Audi, by the way). Statistically, it's very unlikely that such a problem would only happen in a single country even though these cars do not differ significantly between different countries. You'd expect a few deaths in Japan, France, German, the United Kingdom where Toyota cars are also very popular.

    Too bad for Toyota that their brand has been permanently damaged in the US. (Just ask Audi how well it went for them the years after the accusations). GM, Ford and Chrysler are probably very happy about this.

  3. Not conclusive by OWJones · · Score: 5, Insightful

    While this is a useful data point, it's not conclusive. If the root cause is some electronics error whose symptoms are a sudden acceleration and (according to two victims) no response to the brake, it's not surprising that the black box -- presumably using the exact same input controlling the engine -- would claim that the accelerator was fully pressed and the brake was untouched.

  4. Re:my first thought was... by camperdave · · Score: 5, Funny

    Driver error... Great! So all Toyota needs to do is issue new drivers.

    --
    When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
  5. Almost Always User Error by gotpaint32 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    From the article: Police in Sheboygan Falls, Wis., investigated and believe driver error was to blame, Chief Steven Riffel said Tuesday. He said surveillance video showed that the brake lights didn't illuminate until after the crash. But Mr. Riffel said that determination is preliminary and that his agency has turned over the investigation to NHTSA. Based on the black box data, NHTSA investigators found that the brake was not engaged and the throttle was wide open, according to a person familiar with the matter. Ms. Marseille sticks by her story. "It makes me very angry when someone tells me, 'She probably hit the gas pedal instead,' because I think it's a sexist comment, an ageist comment," she said.

    Brake lights are controlled by a simple switch in the brake assembly. Regardless of how much TOyota may have jacked up the throttle system I doubt they were able to screw that up too. Sounds like most these idiots are too stupid to own a car

    --
    Nuclear war would really set back cable. - Ted Turner
  6. COMPETITORS DO HAVE PROBLEMS. LOTS... by doctor_no · · Score: 5, Informative

    Here's a list (SUA) sudden unintended acceleration complaints to the NHTSA

    http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/nhtsa-data-dive-3-117-models-ranked-by-rate-of-ua-incidents/
    http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/02/05/sudden.acceleration.fact.check/index.html

    Atop that, most of SUA complaints to the NHTSA are a sham.

    http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/89-dead-in-the-nhtsa-complaint-database-it%E2%80%99s-a-sham/

    Its not about a design flaw, some people are on their cell phone, distracted, and in some cases plain DRUNK. One Toyota SUA had a driver with a blood alcohol level of .103 (link above). Its easier to blame the car rather then admit you were drinking or were texting on the cellphone.

    In other cases it turned out to be a complete hoax (in the case of the California Prius incident):

    http://www.forbes.com/2010/03/12/toyota-autos-hoax-media-opinions-contributors-michael-fumento.html
    http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/fox-is-sikes-a-balloon-boy/