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FreeType Project Cheers TrueType Patent Expiration

FlorianMueller writes "The FreeType project celebrates the expiration of Apple's TrueType bytecode patents. The open source font rendering engine now has the bytecode technology enabled by default. The relevant code existed for some time, but the project felt forced to disable it and advise everyone not to use it due to patent encumbrance. The 20-year maximum of validity of software patents is long, but sometimes the stuff that becomes available is still useful. The Unisys GIF patent was an example. And anything open-sourced 20 years ago would also be patent-free by now (except for the code that has since been added)."

203 comments

  1. This makes me worried... by bogaboga · · Score: 1, Troll

    The open source font rendering engine now has the bytecode technology enabled by default. The relevant code existed for some time, but the project felt forced to disable it and advise everyone not to use it due to patent encumbrance.

    The statement above makes me worried because it suggests that the Open Source Community could not find their way around these patents for two decades! Think about it....20 years!

    That's enough time for an infant born at the time of patent filing to [legally] be a parent at its expiry...and that's a long time folks.

    1. Re:This makes me worried... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No, that makes this a worthy patent, like the RSA patent. All those other patents that can be easily worked around, those are the bad patents.

    2. Re:This makes me worried... by JavaBear · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes, in a business where most things are considered obsolete after 5 years, and ancient at 10, a 20 year patent life time is extremely excessive.

      It is sad to see that countries and regions (EU) who do not (officially) allow software patents, are working on legislation to enable them.

    3. Re:This makes me worried... by operagost · · Score: 1, Funny

      It's illegal to be a parent at some age under 20? Sue mother nature!

      --

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    4. Re:This makes me worried... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you're saying open source developers can't think up their own solutions.

    5. Re:This makes me worried... by MBGMorden · · Score: 1

      The original post never even hinted at 20 years being any sort of a minimum for parenthood - just that it was long enough for it to happen.

      --
      "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
    6. Re:This makes me worried... by marga · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The statement above makes me worried because it suggests that the Open Source Community could not find their way around these patents for two decades! Think about it....20 years!

      That is not what the article says. What it says is that the patent was filed 20 years ago, and that the freetype library included the code that infringed on that patent "for some time".

      What would "find a way around these patents" be? With software patents, that patent a "method" of doing something, it's quite hard to be able to find a way around them. Say Microsoft decided to enforce their double-click patent, how would you find a way around it? Basically, no other software would be able to use the double click input method without paying Microsoft for a patent license.

      The EFF fights against many of the enforced software patents, trying to prove that there was prior art and that the patent was actually invalid when it was granted. If the patent was actually valid, there's not much you could do.

      That's how it is, that's why we hate software patents.

      --
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    7. Re:This makes me worried... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There may be multiple ways of solving a problem but where the best and most obvious solution is patented. If this is the case it is still desirable to change from an inferior method to a the best method when the patent expires.

    8. Re:This makes me worried... by Qzukk · · Score: 3, Informative

      could not find their way around these patents for two decades

      Sure, there was a way around the patents: be incompatible with TrueType.

      That's how PNG was invented to work around the patents on GIF.

      --
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    9. Re:This makes me worried... by kabloom · · Score: 1

      That's enough time for an infant born at the time of patent filing to [legally] be a parent at its expiry...and that's a long time folks.

      Giving new meaning to the term "generations" of technology.

    10. Re:This makes me worried... by quickOnTheUptake · · Score: 2, Informative

      Not necessarily. What if there is one obvious way to solve a problem and it gets a patent? Ridiculous example: If someone had gotten a patent for "circular apparatus that facilitates low friction locomotion" there might not have been much to do but wait out the 20 years.

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    11. Re:This makes me worried... by diegocg · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure it's possible to work around the patent in this case. It seems that TrueType fonts (invented by Apple) include some sort of "program" that once it gets interpreted by the font renderized it makes fonts look better, but the TrueType format is not patent-free. The options are to invent a new font format or to use the ttf format and avoid the features that are patented.

    12. Re:This makes me worried... by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well at least New Zealand seems to be moving in the right direction on that topic.

      --
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    13. Re:This makes me worried... by quickOnTheUptake · · Score: 1

      born at the time of patent filing to [legally] be a parent at its expiry.

      I don't know how to parse this except as a direct refutation of your post.
      As with GP, I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. Nor do I understand its relevance.

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    14. Re:This makes me worried... by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 1

      The statement above makes me worried because it suggests that the Open Source Community could not find their way around these patents for two decades! Think about it....20 years!

      They "found their way around" the patents long ago, using what is actually a more advanced automatic hinting method than the patented method. Early on it sucked, but over time the differences seemed to become almost unnoticeable in many cases.

      At any rate, top font designers go to a lot of effort to hint the fonts by hand. That's the bit that was patented. Freetype might as well go ahead and fully utilize the efforts of the font designers now that they can.

    15. Re:This makes me worried... by Richard_at_work · · Score: 1

      Yes, in a business where most things are considered obsolete after 5 years, and ancient at 10, a 20 year patent life time is extremely excessive.

      That statement is ironic when you consider this exact case - TrueType, still in primary use today, still valid, still relevant, not obsolete or ancient and still sought after.

    16. Re:This makes me worried... by vijayiyer · · Score: 1

      If it's obvious, it's not supposed to be patentable. Unfortunately, the examiners seem to let a lot of obvious things slip through, but that covers your scenario.

    17. Re:This makes me worried... by jabuzz · · Score: 1

      The RSA patent was not a worthy patent. It failed the obvious to someone skilled in the arts test due to the fact that it had been previously discovered at GCHQ some years previous. Clearly someone with the right mathematical skills and into cryptography could work it out without problem. The whole concepty had been previously publicaly published by someone who lacked the mathematical skills to provide a working solution.

      It really bugs me when people claim that the RSA patent was worthy as it shows a lack of knowledge of the issue.

    18. Re:This makes me worried... by tepples · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sure, there was a way around the patents: be incompatible with TrueType.

      But then how would you get the major foundries on board without being compatible with the two major desktop PC operating systems?

    19. Re:This makes me worried... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      On the contrary, this sounds one of the worst kinds of patent - it was used as a interoperability lockout.
      You can't "work around it" because the data is stored in a particular format, and the way to read it is patented.

    20. Re:This makes me worried... by mikael_j · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think the problem is that the wrong examiners handle some obvious patents. Something that may be obvious to a software developer may not be obvious to someone with only a degree in chemistry and a single undergrad programming course (and vice versa) and once a patent has been granted it's a pain in the ass to get rid of it even if there is prior art so everyone just kind of seems to hope that those who get such patents granted realize that they'd be useless in a serious legal battle (against someone with the resources to find the prior art or demonstrate how the patent would be obvious to anyone in the field).

      --
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    21. Re:This makes me worried... by digitig · · Score: 1

      I don't see why you have a problem with it. 20 is old enough to legally be a parent, at least here in the UK. 30 is old enough to legally be a parent. 40 is legally old enough to be a parent. But if somebody becomes a parent at the age of 12 then unless it's the second coming of Christ (good luck persuading the court) an offence has been committed.

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    22. Re:This makes me worried... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Microsoft still holds a patent on subpixel smoothing. It seems to be specific enough that there are already alternative implementations, but those are doubtless held by some submarine patent holder.

    23. Re:This makes me worried... by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      Thinking up your own solutions doesn't help if about every font out there uses the patented one.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    24. Re:This makes me worried... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know that Slashdot never pays attention to this but software patents are often infinitely more detailed than is let on and the patent covers the much narrower implementation outlined in the details of the patent.

      For example, Microsoft did not patent "double clicking". If you only read maybe the first statement or two in the first paragraph of the summary while wearing anti-MS blinders then maybe you could extrapolate that the patent covers double clicking. But the claims go much deeper, specifically having application-specific buttons on a portable device offer multiple operations based on how the user interacts with that button, e.g. a media player button on a phone where one click opens the media player, two clicks moves to the next song and holding the button for two seconds shuffles the currently playing playlist. The covered implementation only deals with portable devices and application-specific buttons on those devices. That may also seem obvious today, but that patent was filed 11 years ago. Now if you can find a handheld device that offered such specific functionality prior to 1999 then feel free to offer it up as prior art, but something tells me that you won't without some severe stretching that would fall well outside of the applicability of the patent. You'll also note that this patent is not a software patent.

      That said, there are bad patents out there and the system does get abused and deserves reevaluation, but there are plenty of good patents used in an appropriate manner so the baby should not be thrown out with the bathwater.

    25. Re:This makes me worried... by EvanED · · Score: 1

      I would suggest "a circular apparatus that facilitates low friction locomotion" would have been an entirely worthy patent when it was first invented.

      The problem (IMO) isn't that you had to wait out the 20 years, it's that patents are being filed for things that aren't novel or are obvious. Do the latter things apply to TTF? I dunno. But put the problem in the right place.

    26. Re:This makes me worried... by vlm · · Score: 1

      Ridiculous example: If someone had gotten a patent for "circular apparatus that facilitates low friction locomotion" there might not have been much to do but wait out the 20 years.

      How about a real, ridiculous example instead of a made up one? Putting medication into popsicles and feeding the popsicles to children. Until it expires on Dec 20 2013 we can't do this.

      http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5431915/description.html

      This is the second time I've posted this patent today...

      When I was a little kid (let just say, back when OJ was famous for an entirely different reason than now) my mom had one of those tupperware sets to "make your own popsicles" and I occasionally took medication that way per pediatrician advice. Instead of putting plain kool-aid in and freezing them, you put something kids don't like, such as cough medicine, in, fill the balance with kool-aid, stir to mix, freeze... best made onesie-twosie to prevent accidental overdose. Now a days I would like a tupperware popsicle maker kit so as to add ethanol. Oh that patent-violating mother of mine...

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    27. Re:This makes me worried... by js_sebastian · · Score: 2, Funny

      If it's obvious, it's not supposed to be patentable. Unfortunately, the examiners seem to let a lot of obvious things slip through, but that covers your scenario.

      Why don't you go tell the meso-american civilizations that the wheel is obvious?...

    28. Re:This makes me worried... by petermgreen · · Score: 2, Informative

      A big problem is it's very difficult to judge obviousness, something that would be obvious to someone who has spent some time working on the same problem won't nessacerlly be obvious to a patent examiner. After the fact it's even harder.

      Another big problem is those soloutions which aren't particularlly obvious but where there is only a very small number (sometimes only one) of good soloutions which are likely to be found eventually by multiple parties. Lightbulbs are a good example of this, both edison and swan came to the same conclusion on how to make a usable filament at about the same time independently.

      And a final big problem is cases where you have to use a patented method not because it's the only or even the best soloution to the underlying problem but because it's the soloution compatible with what everyone else is doing.

      --
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    29. Re:This makes me worried... by maxume · · Score: 1

      Only for some ridiculotard version of can't.

      Sure, drug companies are going to have trouble marketing medi-pops, but if you are actually worried about the legal risks you would take by making your own, you have gone off the deep end.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    30. Re:This makes me worried... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      And that's precisely why FreeType didn't include a "workaround". Since it would be tantamount to creating a whole new file format, what would be the point?

      dom

    31. Re:This makes me worried... by quickOnTheUptake · · Score: 1

      Actually on second thought, I wonder whether he meant by 'legal parent' a parent recognized as a parent under law (with, for example, full custody rights) rather than saying 'a parent who hasn't violated the law'.
      Either way, this doesn't seem to be what GP was saying.

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    32. Re:This makes me worried... by quickOnTheUptake · · Score: 1

      Assuming you are addressing the second and third sentences of my post: I don't know what 'legal parent' means. I also just don't see how this is a particularly relevant comparison of time.
      BTW, what is the offense that is committed if a 12 year old becomes a parent? (I'm not arguing the law, I'm just curious.)

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    33. Re:This makes me worried... by flink · · Score: 1

      But if somebody becomes a parent at the age of 12 then unless it's the second coming of Christ (good luck persuading the court) an offense has been committed.

      In most places I know of, it's not illegal for 2 minors to have sex with each other. In any case, I would argue that the intercourse is the legally problematic bit, not the "becoming a parent" part.

    34. Re:This makes me worried... by BenEnglishAtHome · · Score: 1

      It's a clumsy reference but I think the GGP (or is it GGGP? I've lost track...) makes a valid point.

      He's saying that a child could be born and grow to an age where s/he could procreate before a patent runs out. It's like saying "Once in a blue moon" to indicate that something happens rarely or only after a long time.

      Then the thought occurred to him that a person could be a parent at some ridiculously young age that's far shorter than the amount of time for a patent to run out. Thus, he threw in that "legally" word to indicate that the span of time he's referencing is even longer.

      As I said, it was a clumsy reference. However, it seemed pretty clear to me from the outset.

    35. Re:This makes me worried... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1
    36. Re:This makes me worried... by quickOnTheUptake · · Score: 1

      No it shouldn't, but the ggp was distinguishing 'worthy' from 'bad' patents (it was given that some patents shouldn't have been granted). I was just saying that his criterion for distinguishing them isn't correct: Just because there isn't an easy work around doesn't by any means imply that it is a worthy patent.

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    37. Re:This makes me worried... by bami · · Score: 1

      >> Now a days I would like a tupperware popsicle maker kit so as to add ethanol.

      You need some hard-core freezing equipment to make ethanol popsicles though.

    38. Re:This makes me worried... by digitig · · Score: 1

      Simply that saying that it's legal to be a parent at 20 does not mean that it's not legal to be a parent at some other age. And I wonder how somebody could become a parent at 12 without some offence being committed. What the Americans call statutory rape would be the most likely, but it's not the only possibility.

      --
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    39. Re:This makes me worried... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Find a way around what? Using True Type fonts? The way around it is simple to define some other mechanism. But when you're talking about a mechanism that is tied to a representation, then there are serious compatibility issues if one implements some other solution.

    40. Re:This makes me worried... by compro01 · · Score: 1

      what is the offense that is committed if a 12 year old becomes a parent?

      barring immaculate conception, statutory rape if you're in the US or sexual assault of a minor up here (Canada) if the other parent is more than 2 years older.

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    41. Re:This makes me worried... by Theaetetus · · Score: 1

      I think the problem is that the wrong examiners handle some obvious patents. Something that may be obvious to a software developer may not be obvious to someone with only a degree in chemistry and a single undergrad programming course (and vice versa) ...

      You may think that, but you'd be wrong. The USPTO has lots of different art groups, and people reviewing software patents are software developers with CS or CE degrees, and people reviewing chemical patents are chemists or chem engineers.

    42. Re:This makes me worried... by digitig · · Score: 1

      In any case, I would argue that the intercourse is the legally problematic bit, not the "becoming a parent" part.

      Hence my careful phrasing.

      --
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    43. Re:This makes me worried... by jeffmeden · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Thanks to the free market, there would be no incentive for someone with such a patent to just sit on it for a number of years, unless they also held (and licensed) a patent for "mammalian apparatus of equine variety that facilitates locomotion"...

      Patents are only there to prevent the sort of "clandestine creativity" that surrounds an expensive project that is faced with the very real threat that it will be stolen right out from under the inventors. Look at China for a very real example of why a working (if less than ideal) patent system is better than no patent system: the only reward for creativity is obtained through going to market faster than your competitors, who will undoubtedly "borrow" your creations for their very next product cycle. This leads to one hastily released, poorly developed product after another, with no time spent on refining and perfecting new technologies. Companies with long development cycles like Apple, Cisco, Microsoft, IBM, and others would be completely unviable without a patent system. Love them or hate them, they have made the Western (and patent-friendly) world what it is today.

    44. Re:This makes me worried... by cgenman · · Score: 1

      To be fair, a lot of things are obvious in retrospect. It's obvious now that a round object with a shaft down the middle might be used to easily carry weight, but the wheel wasn't discovered by all cultures and has no parallel in nature. One-click... that's obvious.

      There are many moments of "Oh yeah, why didn't anyone think of that?" It's not a solution to a math problem, it's a stroke of creative intuition. In retrospect, those strokes seem obvious. But without seeing someone else do it first, however, nobody else might ever have thought of it.

    45. Re:This makes me worried... by Late+Adopter · · Score: 1

      FOSS programmers can and often do find parallel solutions to problems where patents are involved. The problem lies in compatibility, people want to be able to distribute files in one format and have them usable by everyone. You can't even write a format converter without using the patented algorithm to interpret the original ttf (or gif, or mpg) files.

      Patents cover methods, as they were designed to do, but in the software world that means they by necessity cover interfaces too.

    46. Re:This makes me worried... by vlm · · Score: 1

      You need some hard-core freezing equipment to make ethanol popsicles though.

      I can't be the only slashdotter who's frozen mixed drinks into icecubes. You know, so your jack -n- coke doesn't water down as the ice cubes melt. "Everyone knows" that fifty:fifty jack and coke will freeze in a residential deep freeze and possibly in a plain residential freezer, and fifty:fifty jack and coke is pretty strong, thats like jack with a slight coke flavoring. No liquor 80 proof and above can possibly freeze in a residential freezer. I believe the freezing point for diet coke is far higher than regular coke due to the sugar content. I don't know how corn syrup content vs sucrose content varies the mix.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    47. Re:This makes me worried... by Theaetetus · · Score: 1

      How about a real, ridiculous example instead of a made up one? Putting medication into popsicles and feeding the popsicles to children. Until it expires on Dec 20 2013 we can't do this.

      http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5431915/description.html

      That's odd... I don't see "putting medication into popsicles and feeding the popsicles to children" in the claims. Are you sure you're not attempting to refute a patent based on stuff with no legal weight, like the title, abstract, or pictures?

      This is the second time I've posted this patent today...

      When I was a little kid (let just say, back when OJ was famous for an entirely different reason than now) my mom had one of those tupperware sets to "make your own popsicles" and I occasionally took medication that way per pediatrician advice. Instead of putting plain kool-aid in and freezing them, you put something kids don't like, such as cough medicine, in, fill the balance with kool-aid, stir to mix, freeze... best made onesie-twosie to prevent accidental overdose. Now a days I would like a tupperware popsicle maker kit so as to add ethanol. Oh that patent-violating mother of mine...

      And yet, nothing like the system claimed in the patent existed commercially... Do you have any proof that you did that, or are we to simply take your word for it? I don't know about you, but I'd be pretty pissed off if, as an inventor, someone was to say "oh, your invention? I totally did that years ago, but I don't have any proof, documentation, photos, or anything else. But you can't get a patent on it now."

      Why should we deny patent protection to an inventor who is disclosing his invention to the public, in favor of someone who, if they're being completely honest, sat on an invention and didn't disclose it to the public or add to the state of the art? We're supposed to be encouraging public disclosure of innovation... not simply undocumented, secret innovation. The latter, at best, is doing the same thing as submarine patent trolls... and I thought Slashdot hated submarine patents.

    48. Re:This makes me worried... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Compounding pharmacists have been doing this with candy forever.

    49. Re:This makes me worried... by vlm · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sure, drug companies are going to have trouble marketing medi-pops, but if you are actually worried about the legal risks you would take by making your own, you have gone off the deep end.

      But thats the whole point. I'm not worried about the legal risks of making my own, but the medical risks of DIY. Obviously aspirin coated in a buffering compound would be a dumb idea to grind and mix. And there are probably medications out there that oxidize so fast, or are insoluble outside of an acidic stomach acid solution that you shouldn't do this. Most liquids, I would guess, should be fine. But what about liq amoxicillin? Who knows? The whole point is the legal risks of drug companies marketing medi-pops is what causes the somewhat unknown medical risks of DIY medi-pops. Its worth worrying about if something this blindingly obvious can cause a problem.

      Rather than a made up example of patenting the wheel, I provide a real world example of how the broken patent system results in a net loss to society. TrollFlame the "patent the wheel" guy, not me.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    50. Re:This makes me worried... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      By contrast, it really bugs me when people who claim to know what would be obvious to those skilled in the art of cryptology seem to have little understanding of cryptographic history on the matter.

      GCHQ did not disclose they had done any research in asymmetric cryptography whatsoever until 1997, after the RSA patent had already expired (indeed, it was speculated it was the patent's expiry that precipitated their eventual disclosure). They never published anything on the subject; indeed (quite unlike the NSA), CESG essentially did not contribute to civilian academia at all as far as I can tell.

      It seems a bit unreasonable to expect the US patent office to examine "prior art" which a foreign government had found in secret, classified at a high level, never disclosed and never used (having apparently considered asymmetric cryptography as a fun curiosity lacking practical use). That's clearly impossible. As unpublished research, even if revealed years later, it simply doesn't count as prior art.

      (Not that I agree with the patenting of mathematical algorithms at all, although of course, that particular point is quite moot now.)

    51. Re:This makes me worried... by MBGMorden · · Score: 1

      You can only refute my post by ADDING a word that wasn't there in the original post and by my reading wasn't even remotely implied by the original post (as legality typically has nothing to do with having a baby - I knew girls from aged 14 and up who had baby's when we were in school - none ever had "the law" knocking at their door).

      --
      "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
    52. Re:This makes me worried... by quickOnTheUptake · · Score: 1

      Adding 'legal' was obviously meant to restrict being a parent, and to oppose it to something else. I have suggested it might be opposed to merely biological, you have taken it to be opposed to illegal (as I initially did).
      You could become a parent by having sex with another 12 year old. Or by somehow impregnating yourself with semen legally obtained outside of sex (unlikely, but possible). The point is, as far as I know there is no law against becoming a parent (in itself) at any age in the vast majority of jurisdictions (I do recall that one African country outlawed sex for people up to some point in adulthood for a number of years, but this is certainly not a universal or common practice). Nor is there a logically necessary connection between becoming a parent at a particular age and some offense.

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    53. Re:This makes me worried... by quickOnTheUptake · · Score: 1

      Go back and read the original post, it's there. I didn't add it, I just put it in bold.

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    54. Re:This makes me worried... by elrous0 · · Score: 1

      In many states, if you're 18 and your GF is 17, that's not only illegal, it will get you labeled a sex offender for the rest of your life.

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    55. Re:This makes me worried... by quickOnTheUptake · · Score: 1

      if . . . if . . . if . . . if . . . given that . . . etc.
      There is no necessary connection that anyone has yet shown between one's age and the legality of one's parenthood.
      It is quite possible, maybe even probable, that some illegal act was committed by someone if a 12yo is a parent, but it doesn't result in:
      Forevery(x): if (IsAParent(x) & IsUnderSomeAge(x)) then isIllegalParent(x)

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    56. Re:This makes me worried... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The open source font rendering engine now has the bytecode technology enabled by default. The relevant code existed for some time, but the project felt forced to disable it and advise everyone not to use it due to patent encumbrance.

      The statement above makes me worried because it suggests that the Open Source Community could not find their way around these patents for two decades! Think about it....20 years!

      That's enough time for an infant born at the time of patent filing to [legally] be a parent at its expiry...and that's a long time folks.

      Do your fonts look bad? It was only the hinting mecanism (a chunk of byte code within the font file) that was patented, it mostly effected screen presentation (because of the low resolution). Anyway, most font makers never program hints manually and instead use the automatic hinting in the font editor and that automatically generated hinting code CAN be replaced just fine and is usually surpassed by the Freefonts automatic hinting mecansim. Those that don't look as good are mostly Microsoft and Apple fonts with licences that don't allowed them to be used outside MS Windows or Mac OS respectively and they still look almost exactly the same on a paper with a high dpi printed from Linux as well as Win/OS X.

    57. Re:This makes me worried... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I saw a bottle of jack freeze once.. it was sitting on the outside of a window though.. and in an Alaskan winter.
      It was entertaining when it blew up though. I think it was around -50 degrees F though.

    58. Re:This makes me worried... by MBGMorden · · Score: 1

      You're right. I concede defeat on this issue.

      --
      "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
    59. Re:This makes me worried... by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Your local target, kmart and all other big box stores have said devices for $5 or so. Adding ethanol is easy and fun. Lots of recipes out there. Sadly, you can't add much or they will not freeze.

    60. Re:This makes me worried... by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      It could be worse. It could be the inventor's lifetime plus seventy years. And yes, twenty years is a long time if you're twenty five, not so long if you're my age.

      When does Viagra's patent expire? That shit's WAY too expensive! When Paxil's patent expired it went from a hundred dollars a bottle to ten.

    61. Re:This makes me worried... by quickOnTheUptake · · Score: 1

      I forgot to mention my strongest case: marriage. There is more than 1 US state where a person can be legally married at or before 12 (MA, WVA, MI, CA, AZ to name a few). If you look at 3rd world countries it can even be common.

      --
      Mod points: Guaranteed to remove your sense of humor.
      Side effects may include gullibility and temporary retardation
    62. Re:This makes me worried... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If it's not worth them licensing and doing, what makes you think there is some "net loss to society"? Seems like they spent money on a patent that didn't go anywhere; they were the losers in that one.

    63. Re:This makes me worried... by steelfood · · Score: 1

      Considering that the crucial patents for TrueType have expired, the point is moot. Because open formats and standardization is popular right now (due to the many companies competing over the same area, and their recognition that fragmentation is a bad thing for all except one player involved), it's highly unlikely for new de-facto standards to arise from proprietary, closed, or otherwise patent-encumbered systems.

      Consider it a lesson learned (not that the people in charge really do learn, but that's what this situation is right now), that software patents are not a good thing to be included in a standard. The key is to encourage open, patent-unencumbered standards; and to actively discourage closed and patent-encumbered systems from becoming a part of a standard going forward. For example, it would be smart to actively discourage the inclusion of patent-encumbered technologies in the HTML5 standard (i.e. include a clause whereby the inclusion of patented technology would immediately make it non-standards-compliant).

      Truth be told, it's an impossible ideal. In reality, standards shouldn't be burdened by such a restriction. They should, and can incorporate patent-encumbered elements if and only if patent holders relinquish the right to enforce the patents for anything conforming to the standard (i.e. patent holders can still ask for money from entities producing products that don't follow the standard).

      --
      "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
    64. Re:This makes me worried... by Miseph · · Score: 1

      That's really cool though.

      Sucks to be out the bottle of Jack though.

      I guess you could pick up the frozen chunks though.

      They might have chunks of glass in them though.

      T thought something was weird with your post, though I can't seem to figure out what it is... though.

      --
      Try not to take me more seriously than I take myself.
    65. Re:This makes me worried... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, If ONLY the freetype crowd would seek actual compatibility, instead of trying to "Improve"...

      Awhile back I had the dubious distinction of trying to create a FOSS friendly truetype font, with a copy-left license.

      Freetype can suck my hairy nerdy ballsack. Here is why:

      Truetype is a vector font format. In order to be displayed on a low-resolution device (Yes, your monitor is a VERY low resolution device compared to a sheet of paper in a reasonably high quality laser printer.) it needs to go through a process called "Grid Fitting". This is where the TrueType instructions that this patent covers come into play.

      The specific patent covered a very important instruction, the "Delta" instruction, which moves a control point for one of the vector curves an arbitrary number of sub-pixel metrics, to "deform" the actual stored outline for better display at a given pixel depth.

      So far so good.

      The problem, is that the freetype morons, in their infinite wisdom, took one look at the sub-pixel tolerancing used by the truetype spec, and decided that they could increase the number of greyscale shades by an order of magnitude. (256, instead of 16).

      Basically, each "Pixel" is subdivided into an 8x8 sub-pixel grid. The vector's curve is then measured against this sub-pixel coverage. Based on the % covered, this pixel receives a greyscale value. Using the "Improved freetype method", in order for a pixel to be white, EXACTLY 0% of the pixel can be covered by the outline. Compare with the ACTUAL truetype spec, which allows a tolerance zone; up to ~6% of the pixel can be covered with the outline curve before being rendered as a shade of grey.

      Because freetype considers this a feature and not a bug (*WE* render with 256 greyscale values, while all those other people render with 16! Meh! Ourz is the uber!) they refuse to redact it.

      Because of that, many fonts that display just fine on proprietary systems will *STILL* have "Fuzzy shit" around them on Freetype, and always will have that fuzzy shit, because of the lack of 100% precision enabling tools for truetype font creation.

      Also, don't even get me started on the TOTAL LACK of FOSS Truetype font tools. If somebody mentions FontForge, I will fucking dopeslap them.

      (FontForge is an Adobe Type-1/Postscript vector font creation tool, and uses "autogenerated" truetype instructions when exporting to truetype. The autohinter sucks balls, and will result in mangled appearances at low metric sizes EVERY TIME. FontForge simply lacks the toolset and functionality to be a good truetype font authoring program, and the author himself even acknowledges this!)

    66. Re:This makes me worried... by mx_mx_mx · · Score: 1

      Freetype did work around that problem, and quite well.

      Instead of using the bytecode, they used generic algorithm for hinting.

      They say it gives same quality.
      Besides, writing code for each character, doesn't seem to be that easy for font designers

      --
      Linux forever
    67. Re:This makes me worried... by BarryJacobsen · · Score: 1

      Why should we deny patent protection to an inventor who is disclosing his invention to the public, in favor of someone who, if they're being completely honest, sat on an invention and didn't disclose it to the public or add to the state of the art? We're supposed to be encouraging public disclosure of innovation... not simply undocumented, secret innovation. The latter, at best, is doing the same thing as submarine patent trolls... and I thought Slashdot hated submarine patents.

      What if the reason they sat on the invention is because they thought it was completely obvious and not worthy of a patent? (This is assuming the patent really is about medicine popsicles, I didn't read the patent) I honestly wouldn't think freezing medicine and turning it into a medicine popsicle would be patentable as I would assume that "freeze [X] to turn it into a [X] popsicle" is obvious and not patentable, similar to how "[X] over the internet" should not be patentable (in general). Should I file a patent on everything I've ever thought or done on the off chance someone will later come along and want a patent on it and demand proof that I did it before them?

    68. Re:This makes me worried... by Theaetetus · · Score: 1

      What if the reason they sat on the invention is because they thought it was completely obvious and not worthy of a patent?

      And yet, if it was so completely obvious, then why didn't any company before the patent owner commercially exploit the invention? I don't believe there are investors and VCs out there saying, "gosh, I could easily make money on this technology that no one else is doing... but, oh, wait, it's obvious."

      It's really simple to call something obvious in hindsight, but if the idea is commercially valuable, how come no one at the time was doing it until the inventor came along?

      I honestly wouldn't think freezing medicine and turning it into a medicine popsicle would be patentable as I would assume that "freeze [X] to turn it into a [X] popsicle" is obvious and not patentable, similar to how "[X] over the internet" should not be patentable (in general).

      Yeah, but that's not the patent. Nor are there any patents where the 'over the internet' portion of "[X] over the internet" is patentable. People may get that impression from reading just the title of a patent or looking at the picture, but invariably, that [X] that's actually claimed in the patent is patentable by itself, without needing the "over the internet" portion. Should I file a patent on everything I've ever thought or done on the off chance someone will later come along and want a patent on it and demand proof that I did it before them?

      Or you could publish. We have this thing called the Internet that allows people to publish almost for free. But if you don't publish, don't apply for a patent, don't even tell anyone about these things you thought of, why should we believe you when you suddenly pop up a decade later and say, "oh, your system for [X]? I totally thought of that. Gimme money or something."
      It's like that guy who claimed he came up with Harry Potter... but only claimed it after the first couple movies were already out.

    69. Re:This makes me worried... by BarryJacobsen · · Score: 1

      What if the reason no one was doing it commercially was an external factor affecting cost.

      Say Company A looked into producing them, but transporting them was too expensive - say the trucks used to transport regular popsicles was a few degrees too warm at the time, so they'd need their own trucks and that was too much investment for them at the time. They didn't patent making medicine popsicles at the time because that seemed obvious.

      Five years go by and the standard temperature for refrigerated trucks has now lowered to be viable. Company B now has the idea to try to sell medicine popsicles and looks into it and it's now viable. They see no one else is doing it so they patent making medicine popsicles. Now Company A can't get into the business either, because they thought their idea was obvious and not worthy of a patent.

    70. Re:This makes me worried... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In many states, if you're 18 and your GF is 17, that's not only illegal, it will get you labeled a sex offender for the rest of your life.

      Of course, if she's 18 and you're 38, that will get you labeled as a sex god.

      If she's 18 and you're 78, that'll get you labeled as a rich motherfucker.

    71. Re:This makes me worried... by Theaetetus · · Score: 1

      Say Company A looked into producing them, but transporting them was too expensive - say the trucks used to transport regular popsicles was a few degrees too warm at the time, so they'd need their own trucks and that was too much investment for them at the time. They didn't patent making medicine popsicles at the time because that seemed obvious.

      That doesn't logically follow. It may be that Company A can't commercially take advantage of the idea, because they haven't solved all the problems or haven't got sufficient investment capital... But neither of those mean the idea is suddenly obvious.
      In your example, it seems unlikely that Company A would think the idea is obvious when it's not feasible, no one else is doing it, and it's five years before anyone else even enters the market. Instead, it seems like Company A had this idea and sat on it to keep it secret until they had solved the problems... and meanwhile, Company B came along, independently invented the idea and figured out how to make it work. Why should Company B be prevented from getting a patent when Company A didn't do anything that benefited the public?

    72. Re:This makes me worried... by mcgrew · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Say Microsoft decided to enforce their double-click patent, how would you find a way around it?

      Actually I believe MS copied the double click from Apple and its one button mouse, but I for one wish it HAD been patented. It's a dumb convention, IMO. What would be wrong with having one click highlight, and a second click not dependant on time execute? I mean, single click an icon the second time and nothing happens, why does the second click have to be 1/n long to do anything? The double click really frustrates new computer users, and it's completely unnecessary.

      Now that nearly the whole world has gotten used to this stupid convention, it would be hard to change. Hell, when I first got on the internet I had a hard time with hyperlinks because I wanted to double click them.

    73. Re:This makes me worried... by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The real problem is that it cost so much to *challenge* a patent on any grounds, and that at the end of the day, a patent attorney/judge decides what "obvious" is. Just a standard "do I infringe" from a attorney can cost $20K, and unlike an engineers report, it can be completely wrong and its not the attorneys problem or fault.

      Now add the fact the groups like MPEG-LA have 1000s of patents, even small costs become massive.

      The current system is self serving. Its serving lawyers under the pretense of protecting inventors.

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    74. Re:This makes me worried... by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      It's really simple to call something obvious in hindsight, but if the idea is commercially valuable, how come no one at the time was doing it until the inventor came along?

      Realising something is obvious and having the commercial acumen (or even inclination) - to say nothing of funding - to make a business out of it are very different things.

    75. Re:This makes me worried... by Theaetetus · · Score: 1

      It's really simple to call something obvious in hindsight, but if the idea is commercially valuable, how come no one at the time was doing it until the inventor came along?

      Realising something is obvious and having the commercial acumen (or even inclination) - to say nothing of funding - to make a business out of it are very different things.

      Yes, but the key question is "was it obvious at the time?" And contrary to common Slashdot belief, answering that with just a conclusory "yes" and no actual evidence is just flat out unconvincing, particularly when there's evidence that something wasn't obvious. Like, if one company lacks funding or inclination to make something, and it's economically valuable, some other company will make it. If no one makes it, then either (a) it's not economically valuable, or (b) it's not obvious. And, because someone's making it now, then it's not (a), so it must not have been obvious.

    76. Re:This makes me worried... by Grishnakh · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yep. If she's 18, and you're 38, you're a hero. However, if she's 17, and you're 37, you're a pedophile. American society makes so much sense.
       

    77. Re:This makes me worried... by BarryJacobsen · · Score: 1

      My entire point is that Company A considered the idea obvious - that there were other problems is unrelated - freezing something to make it a popsicle is obvious, regardless of other problems. They didn't "sit on" the idea, they thought the idea was so simple that anyone and everyone could have thought of it (i.e. they thought if they applied for a patent it would be denied because it is obvious). The patent Company B got wasn't for fixing the transportation problem (that went away itself through general progress), it was for the making of the thing Company A thought was obvious and non-patentable.

    78. Re:This makes me worried... by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      If no one makes it, then either (a) it's not economically valuable, or (b) it's not obvious. And, because someone's making it now, then it's not (a), so it must not have been obvious.

      Your logic is not sound. "Social networking" sites, for example, are a pretty obvious "invention" (eg: IRC is a pretty clear predecessor). However, until a) the pervasiveness of internet access, and more so b) the pervasiveness of always-available internet access via mobile phones and such, their "economic viability" was severely curtailed.

      Just because something is economically viable now, doesn't mean it always was. For some other examples, consider how economically viable most of the businesses in, say, Phoenix would be if it weren't for cheap air conditioners, or how well huge suburban strip malls would survive if it weren't for ridiculously cheap gasoline.

    79. Re:This makes me worried... by Theaetetus · · Score: 1

      My entire point is that Company A considered the idea obvious - that there were other problems is unrelated - freezing something to make it a popsicle is obvious, regardless of other problems.

      And if that were the entire idea, it would be obvious. But that's not the entire idea, hence why Company A wasn't able to make it work commercially and Company B was. All this shows is that Company A innovates poorly. Perhaps Company A should spend more time working on their ideas rather than complaining, 5 years later when Company B is getting patents, that they totally thought of [X] first even though they threw away all of their documentation and evidence.

      If the idea is truly obvious, then Company A should be able to show that it was obvious at the time, using prior art references and evidence of the state of the art at the time. Otherwise, it's just hindsight (and really sour grapes) and is legally improper.

    80. Re:This makes me worried... by Theaetetus · · Score: 1

      If no one makes it, then either (a) it's not economically valuable, or (b) it's not obvious. And, because someone's making it now, then it's not (a), so it must not have been obvious.

      Your logic is not sound. "Social networking" sites, for example, are a pretty obvious "invention" (eg: IRC is a pretty clear predecessor). However, until a) the pervasiveness of internet access, and more so b) the pervasiveness of always-available internet access via mobile phones and such, their "economic viability" was severely curtailed.

      I'm not quite sure how you can accuse my logic of being flawed when you start with a premise - "social networking sites are obvious" - to support your conclusion - "social networking sites are obvious".
      Additionally, the facts don't support either your premise or your conclusion... The first social networking sites came out in the early 2000s, and yet web access via mobile phones was pretty rudimentary and not widely available.

      If you really want to make this argument, you first have to prove your premise - "social networking sites are obvious" - to be true, and I don't think IRC is a good candidate, since it lacks almost every feature of social networking except chat. You'd do better pointing to USENET. But it's still a far cry from Friendster.

      Just because something is economically viable now, doesn't mean it always was. For some other examples, consider how economically viable most of the businesses in, say, Phoenix would be if it weren't for cheap air conditioners, or how well huge suburban strip malls would survive if it weren't for ridiculously cheap gasoline.

      First, your example really doesn't apply, because I don't see anyone trying to patent "strip mall + air conditioner".
      Second, for the example to apply as a way to show something to be obvious but commercially unsound, all of the elements would have had to exist at the time of the alleged invention, but in your hypothetical, you're suggesting that some of those elements wouldn't have existed. So, yeah... if cheap air conditioners didn't exist, then an invention that relied on cheap air conditioners wouldn't be that obvious, would it?

      Finally, how about a better example: let's say I wanted to patent something that was entirely commercially unsound... a method of heating a house comprising (1) getting a bunch of cash out of the bank and (2) setting it on fire in my living room. Look, not economically feasible, right? But - and here's the important part - someone seeing it 5 years from now could be able to prove it was obvious now, without using hindsight. How? All of the elements exist - cash, banks, houses, living rooms, fire, and we know that if you burn cash, it creates heat. So, it's predictable.

      Now, your turn. You want to prove a patent is obvious? Find evidence that each and every element in the claim existed at the time of invention, and that they could be predictably combined to get the claimed result. That's how you do it without hindsight.

    81. Re:This makes me worried... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Thanks to the free market, there would be no incentive for someone with such a patent to just sit on it for a number of years, unless they also held (and licensed) a patent for "mammalian apparatus of equine variety that facilitates locomotion"...

      First, patents indicate the lack of a free market. Whether they are good or bad is a separate point. However, they do not exist in a free market. In a market, yes. In a free market, no. Second, there are plenty of reasons to sit on a patent.

      1) It prevents competition with your "Just Carry The Shit (TM)" business model (Patent #285, 10yrs remaining)

      2) You exploit the highest value/profit low hanging fruit and ignore other ecological niches (moving grain, yes - grinding grain, no)

      3) There may be no correlation between the patent holders and those with the know how to exlpoit it

      Patents are only there to prevent the sort of "clandestine creativity" that surrounds an expensive project that is faced with the very real threat that it will be stolen right out from under the inventors.

      No. Are you fucked in the head? This is the only purpose? Independent or parelled development would be OK (less 'first to file'). As would reverse engineering be OK. Many obvious "inventions" would not get protection. Further, the protection could be a much smaller window of time as once the product is on the market, the cat is out of the bag. I think not only did you fail to find the "only reason" I doubt you found one of the top five. Lastly, patents should have mandatory licensing much like a song on the radio. The only option should be to license for less or make some persuasive argument for why "one click" anything is worth more than $0.0000001/click.

    82. Re:This makes me worried... by Gilmoure · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but they're no Einstein.

      --
      I drank what? -- Socrates
    83. Re:This makes me worried... by Tubal-Cain · · Score: 1

      Einstein didn't have a CS degree, either.

    84. Re:This makes me worried... by mqduck · · Score: 1

      The current system is self serving. Its serving lawyers under the pretense of protecting inventors.

      I don't like this vilification of lawyers. Not because I'm a big fan of lawyers, but because it defines the problem as a fundamentally legal one, rather than one of power. The patent system serves powerful corporations.

      Lawyers benefit, but they and the law they lawyer (can I use lawyer as a verb?) are symptomatic of who's really in charge.

      --
      Property is theft.
    85. Re:This makes me worried... by Majik+Sheff · · Score: 1

      The law says legal age of consent is 18 years. Obeying the law makes no sense? What anarchy do you live in?

      --
      Women are like electronics: you don't know how damaged they are until you try to turn them on.
    86. Re:This makes me worried... by grouchomarxist · · Score: 1

      actually the meso-american civilizations knew about the wheel, but only used it for toys. i guess they thought it had no serious applications...

    87. Re:This makes me worried... by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      I'm not quite sure how you can accuse my logic of being flawed when you start with a premise - "social networking sites are obvious" - to support your conclusion - "social networking sites are obvious".

      Probably because I didn't.

      Additionally, the facts don't support either your premise or your conclusion... The first social networking sites came out in the early 2000s, and yet web access via mobile phones was pretty rudimentary and not widely available.

      But they didn't really explode until later, and the trend was also obvious.

      If you really want to make this argument, you first have to prove your premise - "social networking sites are obvious" - to be true, and I don't think IRC is a good candidate, since it lacks almost every feature of social networking except chat. You'd do better pointing to USENET. But it's still a far cry from Friendster.

      Huh ? IRC had pretty much all the major features of social networking sites - at least assuming you had a decent client and were in the right channels, of course. Friends, games, content sharing, offline messages, etc.

      Another obvious predecessor is BBSes.

      First, your example really doesn't apply, because I don't see anyone trying to patent "strip mall + air conditioner".
      Second, for the example to apply as a way to show something to be obvious but commercially unsound, all of the elements would have had to exist at the time of the alleged invention, but in your hypothetical, you're suggesting that some of those elements wouldn't have existed. So, yeah... if cheap air conditioners didn't exist, then an invention that relied on cheap air conditioners wouldn't be that obvious, would it?

      You seem to be missing the point. Your argument was:

      If no one makes it, then either (a) it's not economically valuable, or (b) it's not obvious. And, because someone's making it now, then it's not (a), so it must not have been obvious.

      And my point is that the logic isn't sound, because it assumes nothing else changed between when something was obvious to someone (but not commercialised) and when it became commercialised (and thus obvious to everyone). In actual fact a lot can change, which may make something that was previously obvious, but not economically viable, a huge money spinner, and why an argument that essentially boils down to "since no-one made money off it before, it couldn't have been obvious" doesn't stand.

      Find evidence that each and every element in the claim existed at the time of invention, and that they could be predictably combined to get the claimed result.

      By definition the components must have, otherwise the initial invention couldn't have been created and patented in the first place.

    88. Re:This makes me worried... by billstewart · · Score: 1

      And as far as we know, nobody in the NSA figured it out independently either.

      --

      Bill Stewart
      New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
    89. Re:This makes me worried... by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Having worked in a big corporation, try to do *anything* without the express approval of the legal department.

      Laws are written in a way where we are told we can't understand them, and must seek "legal advice" at every turn. Unlike real professionals, there is nothing wrong --legally-- with bad legal advice or incompetence, you get to stay a lawyer. Just see how long an engineer stays an engineer when they get things wrong, like a bridge wasn't strong enough.

      I have known too many lawyers. All they care about is "due process", which is legaleses (why does that word even exist) for "lots of billable hours".

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    90. Re:This makes me worried... by dangitman · · Score: 1

      What would be wrong with having one click highlight, and a second click not dependant on time execute?

      Because it will confuse and annoy both new and experienced users.

      I mean, single click an icon the second time and nothing happens, why does the second click have to be 1/n long to do anything?

      Because users won't notice that it is highlighted, and then they click on it with some other intention in mind, and discover it has a completely different action, just because somebody else clicked it one 2 hours ago.

      Now that nearly the whole world has gotten used to this stupid convention, it would be hard to change.

      What's stupid about it? It's a simple way to increase functionality. Do you also think that right-clicking is stupid? What makes that any different than double-clicking?

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
    91. Re:This makes me worried... by Theaetetus · · Score: 1
      I think we're going around in circles... I'll just leave you with this:

      Find evidence that each and every element in the claim existed at the time of invention, and that they could be predictably combined to get the claimed result.

      By definition the components must have, otherwise the initial invention couldn't have been created and patented in the first place.

      That can only be true if no invention ever involved something new. Which would kind of mean "there can be no inventions in any field because 'by definition' all of the parts of the invention already exist." And whether you're anti-software patents or not, that's just obviously false. People invent new things every day.

    92. Re:This makes me worried... by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      What would be wrong with having one click highlight, and a second click not dependant on time execute?
      Because it will confuse and annoy both new and experienced users.

      Yes, it will annoy experienced users like hyperlinks did me when I first got on the net, but I fail to see how or why it would confuse or annoy new users.

      Because users won't notice that it is highlighted

      Why wouldn't they?

      What's stupid about it? It's a simple way to increase functionality.

      Like I said, it doesn't increase functionality. How does it increase functionality in any way?

      Do you also think that right-clicking is stupid?

      No, why would I? You have two buttons, they should both have purposes.

      What makes that any different than double-clicking?

      What makes it different?? I don't see how they're in any way similar.

    93. Re:This makes me worried... by dangitman · · Score: 1

      Because users won't notice that it is highlighted
      Why wouldn't they?

      You haven't seen many novice users work on a computer, have you?

      Like I said, it doesn't increase functionality. How does it increase functionality in any way?

      Because it allows you to perform additional tasks easily. If you didn't have the double-click, how would you perform other operations on a file such as copying or renaming? Every time you clicked it, the file would launch. Not a particularly good idea.

      No, why would I? You have two buttons, they should both have purposes.

      So, why not also put more functionality into a single button? Why add more buttons if you don't need them.

      What makes it different?? I don't see how they're in any way similar.

      You're not very perceptive, are you? Perhaps you should leave thinking about human interfaces to people with a modicum of cognitive ability.

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
    94. Re:This makes me worried... by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      You haven't seen many novice users work on a computer, have you?

      Yes, and I've seen them perplexed when clicking once did nothing, then struggle with the double click when I explained it to them.

      If you didn't have the double-click, how would you perform other operations on a file such as copying or renaming?

      Richt clicking. Today's mice aren't 1987 one button Mac mice. Click, hold down the button and you can drag. Right button operational, left button executional. Look, it's simple, I don't see why you're having so much trouble comprehending.

      Why add more buttons if you don't need them.

      No reason, two are sufficient.

      You're not very perceptive, are you? Perhaps you should leave thinking about human interfaces to people with a modicum of cognitive ability.

      LOL, I was thinking the same thing about you, since you seem to be stuck in the paradigm without the ability to see a better way of doing something just because you think the way you've been taught is the only way. Which is ironic, because I was computing before mice came along, and I'm pretty sure from your insistance that the double click is the only way one can compute you're probably about my grown kids' age.

      I'm also pretty sure your IQ isn't much more than 100, if it's even that high, or you would be able to understand the concept I'm trying to show you, which you apparently can't.

    95. Re:This makes me worried... by PastaLover · · Score: 1

      A worthy patent is one that leads to an invention that would otherwise not have been made. I see no reason to believe any software patent fits that description.

  2. Does this really matter by MBGMorden · · Score: 1

    Didn't most distributions that shipped FreeType enable usage of TrueType fonts by default already, or am I misunderstanding this?

    --
    "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
    1. Re:Does this really matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      The bytecode in question is about hinting and gridfitting (try Googling those terms): it tells the rendering engine (e.g. FreeType) how to scale fonts at small sizes so they look good. By default, FreeType just scaled text down, which can make it hard to read at small sizes and give blurry edges. Although it did make some efforts to guess what would make good grid alignment decisions, they couldn't used the wealth of information that some fonts' designers painstakingly design into their work by default. It's one of the reasons why fonts on Linux look like crap at small sizes, especially with antialiasing turned off. (Remember that Windows never had problems when fonts were just displayed as black and white!)

    2. Re:Does this really matter by MBGMorden · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the info.

      Maybe they'll look even better now, but I actually thought I'd figured out what had my fonts on a stock Linux distribution looking bad: they were just too damned big :). It's one of those simple things, but compared to a Windows or a Mac desktop, I'd open up Ubuntu or the like and things would just look WRONG. After struggling with trying different fonts, anti-aliasing settings, etc, I eventually discovered that the "trick" to making them look right, for me, was just to drop the default application/desktop font sizes from 10 down to 8 (which is the default size on Windows until Vista. At that point Microsoft raised it to size 9, but I still prefer 8). Viola. My desktop looked normal all of a sudden :).

      Just figuring that out went a long ways towards getting me to tolerate Linux as my main desktop OS :D.

      --
      "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
    3. Re:Does this really matter by russotto · · Score: 1

      Didn't most distributions that shipped FreeType enable usage of TrueType fonts by default already, or am I misunderstanding this?

      Not using the patented method didn't disable TrueType, it just made TrueType fonts uglier. However, at least last time I checked, Ubuntu shipped with the patented method enabled, though Debian did not.

  3. Anyone have a comparison? by stefanb · · Score: 1

    My google-fu must be weak today: is there an example comparing small font sizes with and without the byte code interpreter enabled?

    1. Re:Anyone have a comparison? by jisatsusha · · Score: 4, Informative

      There's this image (left without bytecode, right with) I found which has a comparison for a number of fonts, but the site mentions that other patches were also included, so it may not be entirely representative. Perhaps someone else can find a better example.

    2. Re:Anyone have a comparison? by stefanb · · Score: 1

      Excellent! That was exactly what I was looking for. Looks like a very decent improvement with many fonts.

    3. Re:Anyone have a comparison? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All right, I give up. Which column is supposed to look better? The one on the left, or the one on the right?

    4. Re:Anyone have a comparison? by compro01 · · Score: 1

      The right one. It doesn't necessarily look better per se, but rather looks as the font designers intended.

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    5. Re:Anyone have a comparison? by Sir_Lewk · · Score: 1

      I'm having a very hard time trying to figure out any difference between those. What exactly should I be looking at/for?

      --
      "linux is just DOS with a UNIX like syntax" -- Galactic Dominator (944134)
    6. Re:Anyone have a comparison? by elmartinos · · Score: 2, Informative

      Here you can see a comparison with mouseover effect:
      http://martin.ankerl.com/2009/01/22/beautiful-font-hinting-in-ubuntu-810/

    7. Re:Anyone have a comparison? by Hatta · · Score: 1

      So, the bytecode enabled column just looks blurrier. Not exactly a major leap in font technology.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    8. Re:Anyone have a comparison? by shaunbr · · Score: 1

      The effect is subtle on most of those examples, but the last two show a lot of improvement. The second-to-last example is especially good -- some of the glyphs ('A','s','n','a') look thicker and more ragged in the non-bytecode form, but all of them show it to some degree.

      These improvements may be subtle, but will make a big difference when reading larger blocks of text, and even more so when the text is printed. Of course, this assumes that the font maker has actually taken the time to embed the additional information. This generally isn't the case for the non-professional fonts that people download from 'free' font sites.

    9. Re:Anyone have a comparison? by spitzak · · Score: 1

      That does not look like any hinting change, rather it is some kind of change to the subpixel filtering. As far as I can tell it is just switching from a more blurry version to a sharper (and lighter) version in the "old" one. I don't think either picture is showing correct subpixel filtering.

    10. Re:Anyone have a comparison? by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

      For the most part, there isn't much of a difference. That is, until you look closely at the descenders and serifs, then you can see the difference between the two. The right column looks better.

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
    11. Re:Anyone have a comparison? by ratboy666 · · Score: 1

      Um, no. Look at the 13th line of the sample. The font is something like Bernhard Modern. After "BCI" gets through mangling it, it looks like Times.

      --
      Just another "Cubible(sic) Joe" 2 17 3061
  4. Patent time needs to be extended! by erroneus · · Score: 1

    This may become the next drive where software patents are concerned. In much the same way that the H1-B programs get extended and increased while unemployment is hitting new highs, software patents stifle business and innovation and keep the courts systems over-burdened... we need more of it!

    1. Re:Patent time needs to be extended! by MBGMorden · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      In much the same way that the H1-B programs get extended and increased while unemployment is hitting new highs

      Indeed. Those in power always seem to find excuses to line their pockets. Much like contractors proclaim that illegal immigrants are taking jobs that "no one else wants" despite anyone in the know seeing that there are a ton of unemployed Americans in the drywall, masonry, landscaping, and other construction trades looking for work who can't find it because of jobs taken by illegals. What the rich guys mean whey they say they're taking jobs that "no one wants" is that they're taking jobs that THEY don't want.

      Like I said, they'll always try to argue to line their own pockets.

      --
      "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
    2. Re:Patent time needs to be extended! by erroneus · · Score: 1

      I am presently employed in IT. Some might say under-employed... but I've been considering waiting outside of Home Depot on weekends. That tax-free income looks pretty attractive right about now.

      I think when our white faces start showing up in news articles instead of the typical brown ones, there might be some additional notice paid. Unfortunately, I don't speak spanish particularly well so that might be a problem with my getting any of that weekend-tax-free-pay.

    3. Re:Patent time needs to be extended! by tepples · · Score: 1

      I think when our white faces start showing up in news articles instead of the typical brown ones, there might be some additional notice paid. Unfortunately, I don't speak spanish particularly well so that might be a problem with my getting any of that weekend-tax-free-pay.

      That's what community college and a holiday in Spain are for.

    4. Re:Patent time needs to be extended! by dpilot · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      > What the rich guys mean whey they say they're taking jobs that "no one wants" is
      > that they're taking jobs that THEY don't want.

      Correction: they're taking jobs that "no one wants" at the wages the rich guys want to pay. After all, we can't ALL be rich, and if you're going to crank that difference between them an us in there, you've got to start somewhere.

      --
      The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
    5. Re:Patent time needs to be extended! by Insightfill · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      What the rich guys mean whey they say they're taking jobs that "no one wants" is that they're taking jobs that THEY don't want.

      Stephen Colbert had a guest on from "Take Our Jobs" the other day, a group with the premise that field labor work is hard, but skilled, but also doesn't pay very well. The illegal immigrants aren't taking anyone's job, because hardly anyone else here will do it. Their claim: take our jobs, please. It's hard work, and we're stealing nobody's job.

      I love the disclaimer on their site before you sign up: "** Job may include using hand tools such as knives, hoes, shovels, etc. Duties may include tilling the soil, transplanting, weeding, thinning, picking, cutting, sorting & packing of harvested produce. May set up & operate irrigation equip. Work is performed outside in all weather conditions (Summertime 90+ degree weather) & is physically demanding requiring workers to bend, stoop, lift & carry up to 50 lbs on a regular basis."

    6. Re:Patent time needs to be extended! by MBGMorden · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The illegal immigrants aren't taking anyone's job, because hardly anyone else here will do it. Their claim: take our jobs, please. It's hard work, and we're stealing nobody's job.

      Only to those who don't know any better. I have family members in drywall, and several friends in the masonry business. Most of them are currently unemployed - not for lack of wanting to work, but for the fact that the companies that employed them went under due to not being able to competitively bid against companies using off the books/illegal labor. Other companies are literally bidding less than the break even cost of legit companies because they're paying their labor under the table for less than minimum wage.

      In the construction industry as a whole, it's literally gotten to the point where if a company wants to play by the rules, they're as good as gone. This isn't about Americans not being willing to work hard. I know people who have been doing these jobs for 30+ years working hard for all their lives who now are simply not able to find any work. For the younger generation, it's not too bad. They still have some hope of trying to get on in a different industry that hasn't gone all to hell. The 50+ guys whose main skill is now worthless to an actual American though is SOL.

      I work in IT too - I don't do a menial labor job, but having grown in in the sticks, I know a ton of people who don't/didn't have cushy office jobs. These people have busted their ass for a living, and now their jobs are being handed away to those working for illegally low wages (which are made possible by the fact that they're not paying income taxes - that nagging little thing that reduces the wages of legit workers by 30-40%) just to make the rich richer.

      --
      "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
    7. Re:Patent time needs to be extended! by MBGMorden · · Score: 1

      Indeed. I'm slated to start taking Spanish classes at the local technical school myself this fall. The beginners class is only $150. Despite being very anti-illegal immigrant I'm actually very interested in Mexican culture and the like, hence my desire to learn Spanish. One of my best friends is half-Mexican, and the most anti-illegal immigrant person I actually know is his father who immigrated from Mexico over 30 years ago. HE actually did it the right way, went through all the paperwork, etc, and gets VERY pissed off at those just sneaking across after he did all that.

      I don't even have a problem with granting amnesty. If they're here and want to stay here, then fine. It's too late to rail about kicking everyone out. But get registered, get a real SSN, and work LEGALLY paying your taxes for Christ's sake.

      --
      "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
    8. Re:Patent time needs to be extended! by crmarvin42 · · Score: 1

      My step-dad is in the construction/remodeling business. He even owned his own home remodeling business 15 years ago or so. It is amazing how many times he lost the bid for a job, but then got hired to fix what the bid winner had done wrong, or not finished. It was work, but it wasn't enough to keep things afloat. If the homeowner had hired him in the first place, they would have saved themselves a lot of time and money, and my dad's business might not have had to fold. However, he very rarely lost the bid due to the relative differences in what employees were paid (a la undocumented laborers). Instead, the competitors simply didn't get all of the permits and licenses, or didn't ever intend to do a decent/complete job.

      In agriculture on the other hand, these really are jobs that most Americans don't want. I used to work picking tobacco in CT during the summer break. They employed probably 18 HS age kids on any given day and about 9 Jamaican migrant workers (legally). Pay was hourly, plus bonuses for picking above your quota (no penalty for missing quota though). Only 1 HS student made quota on a regular basis (3 or 4 out of 6 days/week), whereas the Jamaicans all exceeded quota every single work day, all summer long. The HS students (myself included) were simply not willing to work hard enough. That's the real issue as I see it for Agriculture. You need people willing to not only work, but work hard to earn the bonuses. In my experience on produce, tobacco, dairy, and swine farms Americans, generally speaking, are not willing to work hard enough consistently enough for the work to get done in a timely fashion. Legal or not, immigrant/migrant workers are more productive even when the pay is the same and that is at least part of the reason why they dominate those jobs. Not saying some unscrupulous don't take advantage of questionable legal status to pay low wages, but if Americans were actually fighting for those jobs the unscrupulous employers wouldn't be able to get away with it as much.

      Maybe my take is wrong, but I don't think it is.

      --
      Bureaucracy expands to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy.-Oscar Wilde
    9. Re:Patent time needs to be extended! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      God, just mark this whole thread offtopic, please. ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION HAS NOTHING THE FUCK TO DO WITH FONT ANTI-ALIASING. BOTH SIDES TAKE YOUR GODDAMNED WHARRGARBL ELSEWHERE AND LET THE REST OF US DEAL WITH FONTS AND PATENTS HERE.

      The illegal immigrants aren't taking anyone's job, because hardly anyone else here will do it. Their claim: take our jobs, please. It's hard work, and we're stealing nobody's job.

      Only to those who don't know any better. I have family members in drywall, and several friends in the masonry business. Most of them are currently unemployed - not for lack of wanting to work, but for the fact that the companies that employed them went under due to not being able to competitively bid against companies using off the books/illegal labor. Other companies are literally bidding less than the break even cost of legit companies because they're paying their labor under the table for less than minimum wage.

    10. Re:Patent time needs to be extended! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You didn't seem to take into account the economic/banking crisis, the lack of credit and loans, and due to the lack of loans, the halt of a lot of construction. The lack of construction happening in general is not solely an American phenomenon, and not really something you can blame on the illegal immigrants. Its happening pretty much everywhere except China at the moment. I hear even the construction in Dubai has come to a halt, except for the stuff that was financed before it all hit the fan.

    11. Re:Patent time needs to be extended! by Herkum01 · · Score: 1

      It is not the lack of income taxes that is reducing the wages of legit workers. The income tax for people below 24,000 K is pretty non-existent. It is the fact the employers of these immigrants are ignoring all the rules that they had to follow to protect workers. Unemployment benefits, Social Security, vacation, Health Care, training are all gone. Not to mention if they are going to do all this stuff, they might as well cheat on their accounting as well.

      The fact is, these employers are don't want to hire human beings, they want robots. If they get sick or broken they can throw them away. They don't care about government, they are only worried about getting their share and screw everyone else. These are the people who we should be kicking out of the country.

    12. Re:Patent time needs to be extended! by mcgrew · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      What the rich guys mean whey they say they're taking jobs that "no one wants" is that they're taking jobs that THEY don't want.

      No, they mean jobs that no one wants to get paid less than minimum wage under the table for.

    13. Re:Patent time needs to be extended! by stephanruby · · Score: 1

      Other companies are literally bidding less than the break even cost of legit companies because they're paying their labor under the table for less than minimum wage.

      If it's in the construction industry, the market rate in California for illegal immigrants is $10 an hour (it's usually more depending on the area, especially in the summer). Your other points of rich people saving money are still valid, but I just wanted to point out that the wage of an illegal construction worker is not anywhere close to minimum wage as your post seems to imply (perhaps illegals, working as dishwashers or as sweatshop workers, are a different story, but that's the extent of what I know).

      Also, your post implies that there is one-to-one relationship between jobs done by illegal immigrants and normal workers. Can we really be sure this is the case? Construction is a cyclical business. There is bound to be ups and downs. Let's forget the construction companies for a moment. Let's get to the source of the construction projects, either the fat cat client who wants to build something for his family, or the fat cat professional developer who hires construction companies because he hopes to eventually make a profit for himself. If you increase construction cost significantly for either of those rich people, it doesn't necessarily mean that they'll still go ahead with their project. Some will, definitely, but some won't.

      And while I feel bad for the American workers you speak of that are trying to earn an honest living, preventing illegal immigrants from working in the US may give the legit workers only a very temporary respite, if nothing else. Construction work is still going to be as cyclical as ever. Also, construction work is modernizing itself like crazy. What only used to take several days years ago can now be done in a few hours (especially with the right tools and the right pre-fabricated materials). This is an ever-changing system. I'm not sure there is much we can do to save entire professions from being phased out, or drastically changed by it.

    14. Re:Patent time needs to be extended! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      These people have busted their ass for a living, and now their jobs are being handed away to those working for illegally low wages (which are made possible by the fact that they're not paying income taxes - that nagging little thing that reduces the wages of legit workers by 30-40%) just to make the rich richer.

      Minimum wage laws, income taxes, I9 reporting, and mandating anyone has to hire a union (they may choose to) should all be fucking tossed in the dust bin of history. I doubt these under-the-table contractors are all that rich. Small construction companies aren't exactly known as beacons of profitability or assets. Often fly-by-night or bankrupt one day and in business under a new name the next. The rich feel good patenting themselves on the back for insulating you and your inbred ilk from the horrors of competition. The rich compete with imports or import. They deal with the shit, not sit home unemployed whining about shit. "illegally low wages" - fuck you.

    15. Re:Patent time needs to be extended! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I also have several friends in drywall and in the masonry business. And most of them are also currently under employed. They also happen to be illegal immigrants.

      To say that they are cheaper takes a lot away from them. Sure, they are cheaper, but they also work harder, faster and much more liquid. They are there when you need them, and when you don't they are somewhere else looking for what ever job they can find.

      If they don't meet the foreman's expectations they pick up their checks and move on. Knowing that they will have to work harder to keep their next job. In other words, they continually raise the bar for themselves and others.

      For the most part no one grows up wishing to be a construction worker in the US. But for illegal immigrants there is no higher plane. Most can't speak English except for a few words, so they are limited in what fields they can enter. Not to mention politically imposed limitations. As a result most immigrants try construction and it is those that have the physical and mental capability that remain in the field. They are some of the best immigrants. They are the same people who would have cushy jobs given the chance.

      Keep on repeating that illegal is illegal. But don't blame immigrants taking someone's job on price alone.

  5. Funny Enough... by wandazulu · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Apple apparently uses FreeType in the iPhone. Go to settings->General->Legal and you get the long list of projects uses in the iPhone; the Freetype project is mentioned about a third of the way down (right below the copyright notice for ncurses).

    I suppose Apple had no issue recompiling with the flag turned on.

    1. Re:Funny Enough... by DarkKnightRadick · · Score: 1

      I guess they felt they could violate their own patent?!

      --
      "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." Proverbs 16:25 (NKJV)
    2. Re:Funny Enough... by Cyberax · · Score: 1

      They are patent holders for that particular patents :)

    3. Re:Funny Enough... by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 4, Funny

      I suppose Apple had no issue recompiling with the flag turned on.

      IIRC, the Freetype FAQ suggested that for commercial use, you could talk to Apple and get a license so that you can legally recompile with the flags on. I assume Apple sent an email to 127.0.0.1 to request such permission.

    4. Re:Funny Enough... by DittoBox · · Score: 1

      Funny me laughs at this.

      Pedantic me says that since they own the patents, it's just like if one of us was licensing the patent. Ergo, turning that option on at build-time would have been legally hunky-dory.

      Funny me laughs at it again though.

      --
      Good. Cheap. Fast. Pick Two.
    5. Re:Funny Enough... by Vintermann · · Score: 1

      Wouldn't the GPL3 give them trouble with that, if someone called them on it?

      --
      xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
    6. Re:Funny Enough... by Vahokif · · Score: 1

      That's because they don't need to license their own patent.

    7. Re:Funny Enough... by DarkKnightRadick · · Score: 1

      I think the resulting irony would destroy the universe. Lets hope no one else ever thinks of it (or takes it seriously).

      --
      "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." Proverbs 16:25 (NKJV)
    8. Re:Funny Enough... by compro01 · · Score: 1

      I believe Freetype is only available under the GPL2 or the Freetype license (basically the 4-clause BSD license).

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    9. Re:Funny Enough... by blai · · Score: 1

      who sues? who pays?

      --
      In soviet Russia, God creates you!
    10. Re:Funny Enough... by DarkKnightRadick · · Score: 1

      Read further down in other threads to see my irony comment.

      --
      "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." Proverbs 16:25 (NKJV)
    11. Re:Funny Enough... by JohnnyBGod · · Score: 1

      Who the hell sent e-mail from the e-mail server?

  6. summary not precise by aepervius · · Score: 1, Informative

    The code would be under copyright, but patent free. Not the same things. That mean you would not be able to COPY the code snippet, but you would be free to make your own implementation.

    --
    C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
    visit randi.org
    1. Re:summary not precise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you would be free to make your own implementation.

      It's well known that FreeType has long since made its own implementation. The problem has been patents.

  7. You cannot patent an idea, can you? by bogaboga · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Say Microsoft decided to enforce their double-click patent, how would you find a way around it?

    Microsoft cannot be granted a patent on such a thing. What they could patent is the implementation of how events are handled by the system. So double clicking wouldn't be patentable. Under the patent regime today, what they could patent includes the method of effecting a [desired] change after double clicking.

    Please correct me if I am wrong.

    1. Re:You cannot patent an idea, can you? by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Please correct me if I am wrong.

      Okay - consider this your correction.

      While what you say is true in the theory of how patents should work - it is not how it is applied today. People abstract a lot of the methodology to claim that their idea IS the methodology.

    2. Re:You cannot patent an idea, can you? by Hatta · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You can patent anything you can get a patent clerk to sign off on. At which point the only recourse the public has is to take you to court. That's well beyond the resources of a project like FreeType. Just because the patent is technically invalid doesn't mean they can't make your life hell for infringing on it.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    3. Re:You cannot patent an idea, can you? by Nadaka · · Score: 1

      That would be how it should work if patents were allowed for software.

      But that is not how it does currently work.

      Few software patents are on "this method" of doing something, but rather on "a method" (any method).

      Personally, I consider that software is the only area where both copyright and patents cover the same material.

      It should be one or the other, and I favor copyright.

    4. Re:You cannot patent an idea, can you? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please correct me if I am wrong.

      Okay - consider this your correction.

      How does the NTP suit mean that Microsoft could get a patent on double-clicking? Did you mean to include a different link?

    5. Re:You cannot patent an idea, can you? by Theaetetus · · Score: 1

      Personally, I consider that software is the only area where both copyright and patents cover the same material.

      They don't, however. That you personally consider it to be true doesn't make it true.

    6. Re:You cannot patent an idea, can you? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Another option: Reexamination at the USPTO.

      With the reexam request, provide the relevant prior art and explanation why the patent reads on the prior art. There is a cost, but cheaper than litigation. Of course, you don't get to be involved passed the initial request (currently).

  8. Screenshot with and without BCI by nstrom · · Score: 3, Informative

    Here's a side-by-side screenshot of Linux font rendering with and without the now patent-free byte code interpretation: http://avi.alkalay.net/2007/01/freetype-with-bytecode-interpreter.html

    1. Re:Screenshot with and without BCI by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 1

      Oh no. I find the shot without BCI easier to read.

      Am I getting old? Do I like old things better than new things?

      I don't wanna grow up! I'm too young to own a lawn!

    2. Re:Screenshot with and without BCI by tepples · · Score: 5, Interesting
      From your linked page:

      BTW, anti-aliasing is useful in 2 situations only: if you are rendering fonts in big sizes (bigger than 13px)

      And guess what: LCD subpixel rendering stretches the font outline horizontally by a factor of three as its first step. So if you're rendering a font at 9px, it's as if you were rendering it at 27px across.

      or if you have bad, non-hinted fonts (as Bitstream Vera)

      Case in point: I had to switch a client's web site from Helvetica to Arial (sorry, smug typophile weenies) because Helvetica's hints handle this stretching poorly, causing the upper bowls of letters like m, n, and r to overshoot the x-height by a whole pixel. When FreeType's autohinter performs better than Microsoft ClearType with BCI on Helvetica, something is up.

    3. Re:Screenshot with and without BCI by magus_melchior · · Score: 2, Interesting

      When FreeType's autohinter performs better than Microsoft ClearType with BCI on Helvetica, something is up.

      Well, Microsoft ClearType was designed with the assumption that "better" = "readable on screen", not "faithful to the typeface design".

      --
      "We are Microsoft. You shall be assimilated. Competition is futile."
    4. Re:Screenshot with and without BCI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The characters from the new rendering themselves look much better, but the kerning in the old renderer is a lot cleaner/easier to read. Essentially, it's a toss-up, IMHO.

    5. Re:Screenshot with and without BCI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The difference isn't just BCI versus no BCI, the two screenshots are also using different fonts and antialiasing settings.

    6. Re:Screenshot with and without BCI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow I had no idea how bad Linux type support was. Even with the 'improvement' it still looks bad. I'll stick to designing on my Mac (and Windows).

  9. Re:Can now embed into X11? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Slashdot really needs a moderation score of "-1 Incoherent"

  10. Re:Can now embed into X11? by MrHanky · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    What the fuck are you talking about? How the hell will "some code from Wine" added to a "X11 backend" benefit anything bandwidth wise? You don't make any sense whatsoever.

  11. Re:Can now embed into X11? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    WTF?!

    Not to say whether there's any sense in whatever you're rambling on about or not, but it sure ain't the same thing as the article's talking about, and makes less than no sense in this context.

  12. I thought it was 17 but 20 isn't bad.. but 100+? by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

    Copyright needs to be lowered. I find it amazing that huge industries were unable to extend the patent duration while the entertainment industries were able to extend this to over 100 years from the original 14+14 years.

    --
    She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
  13. Re:Can now embed into X11? by Dzonatas · · Score: 1

    How is not clear I'm talking about possible optimization and possible trends? Don't expect a complete posted dissertation with all technical details embedded into a Slashdot comment.

  14. Re:Can now embed into X11? by erroneus · · Score: 1

    No... then no one would be able to read what I wrote. I do the majority of my commenting between 2am and 4am. I know it shows when I later re-read them over the course of my waking hours. Reminds me of a horrible typing mistake when I was
    TRYING to discuss a "Seagate" "hard diSk" getting inserted into a live RAID. ...it didn't cum out well.

  15. Re:Can now embed into X11? by Dzonatas · · Score: 0

    The article talks about a patent expiration which would enable technology, just like the article mentioned how FreeType having code enabled from what was disabled because of that patent expiration. What is so hard to understand about that? That's all I'm saying besides a possible trend.

  16. Am I the only one who thinks this looks terrible? by volkerdi · · Score: 1

    Just because the patent expired doesn't make it great. Some of the stuff rendered with BCI almost makes me want to go back to bitmapped fonts. Or maybe it works well, but only with non-free fonts. If that's the case, here's hoping that free operating systems that use FreeType do NOT make this the default immediately.

  17. Re:Can now embed into X11? by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

    While I don't know how fonts are rendered in Wine, if Wine actually renders them itself and sends the resulting bitmaps to the X server, then this will certainly consume more bandwidth than if it just sends the text and font info and lets X render it.

    --
    The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  18. Apple style rendering? by Pivot · · Score: 1

    Does anyone know how to enable with Freetype, the same kind of font appearance as apple does on OS X?

    Some say apples font rendering is a bit more blurry, but I find it easier on the eyes than stock font rendering under linux.

    1. Re:Apple style rendering? by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

      I believe that Apple is using Display PostScript to anti-alias the hell out of everything through Quartz. Someone more knowledgable might clue us both in though.

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
    2. Re:Apple style rendering? by kriston · · Score: 2, Informative

      Apple has a different philosophy comparted to how almost everyone else renders fonts on the screen. Apple wants it to be perfectly shaped, but that's not possible even on today's high-res screens (including the so-called 'retina' display on the iPhone 4), so not only do they anti-alias it, but they also use subpixel rendering, and they do it even where it doesn't make sense (like dead-center between scanlines). The result is not pleasing to me due to annoying, fuzzy artifacts on its fonts but it's pleasing to Mac and iOS fans.

      The closest way I get this effect using Freetype is by re-building the freetype library with the patented subpixels enabled. Note that this is not enabled by default in Fedora (because subpixel rendering is also patented) but it is enabled in Ubuntu.
      In ftoption.h, the option is:
      #define FT_CONFIG_OPTION_SUBPIXEL_RENDERING

      Then, specify "Slight hinting" which will use the really amazing Freetype autohinter (not the bytecode hinter) in the Appearance...Fonts...Details section. The option in fonts.conf (if you use it) is "hintslight" like this:
      <match target="font"><edit mode="assign" name="hintsyle"><const>hintslight</const></edit></match>

      This causes Freetype to endeavor to display the fonts a close as the actual font's metrics will allow, disregarding hints. Unlike Mac and iOS it will still try to avoid doing things that don't make sense like placing a line in the dead center of the space between scanlines on smaller point sizes. Ever since Apple started antialiasing everything I thought of it as a cop-out to really solving the problem of displaying fonts on the screen. I still think Microsoft had the right idea with Cleartype: make it look crispy perfect on the screen even if it is not perfectly shaped. Apple is an example of the perfect being the enemy of the good.

      I, for one, would like the option of using Apple's font renderer, heck, even Microsoft's, on Fedora or Ubuntu. Or, for that matter, Adobe's Cooltype, or the one that Sun's Java VM used to use from before it went open-source.

      --

      Kriston

  19. Work around by tepples · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Patents used to last 17 years after issue. But certain patent owners would employ dirty tricks to keep a patent in the "pending" state (filed but not issued). Now they last 20 years after filing, with an available 5-year extension for certain health care products to compensate for delays in getting the FDA's marketing approval. This greatly reduced the available techniques to keep a patent below water, though nonpracticing entities have discovered a few that still work.

    U.S. copyright is longer because a copyright is far easier to work around than a patent is to invent around. The methods used in a computer program cannot be copyrighted (17 USC 102(b)). Only the expression can, and the key case for that was CA v. Altai. Names of commands were ruled uncopyrightable in Lotus v. Borland, allowing look-alikes and work-alikes of office applications such as OpenOffice.org. But two disturbing copyright interpretations remain: the uncertainty in the scope of copyright in video game scenarios (Atari v. Philips ruled for wide copyright; Capcom v. Data East ruled for narrow), and the possibility of accidentally infringing the copyright in a sequence of musical notes that someone else happened to claim first (Bright Tunes v. Harrisongs).

  20. Triple-click? by Comboman · · Score: 1

    Say Microsoft decided to enforce their double-click patent, how would you find a way around it?

    Easy, use a triple-click with an "accessibility" tolerance of +/- one click.

    --
    Support Right To Repair Legislation.
  21. Cleartype by Clarious · · Score: 1

    Well, Truetype BCI is useful but today most computer screens are LCD it isn't enough anymore, we also need a good subpixel rendering method, the one included in Freetype isn't so bad but isn't as good as Cleartype either. And the Cleartype code in freetype had been removed, unlike the BCI, which is only disabled, so we who don't live in the US can't use it either. (there are still a way to patch freetype though). I wonder how long will we have to wait until we can have nice looking fonts on Linux desktop.

    1. Re:Cleartype by Hatta · · Score: 1

      Cleartype is awful. If we had that on Linux, I'd turn it off, just as I do on ever LCD XP machine I use.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
  22. Re:Can now embed into X11? by Dzonatas · · Score: 1, Interesting

    if Wine actually renders them itself and sends the resulting bitmaps to the X server, then this will certainly consume more bandwidth than if it just sends the text and font info and lets X render it.

    Mod parent very insightful.

    Some used to pre-render a larger bitmap full of commonly used letters. For example, a 2kx2k bitmap cut into squares for each letter. As letters are needed, an empty square is found and filled with the pre-rendered letter with all anti-aliasing and such applied. Then the program just tells X11 to copy and blend that square to the destination. The bitmap acts like a cache that doesn't have to constantly take up bandwidth to fully send.

    That has worked well except when you get into letters combination that shape differently due to different letters in the combination. For example, the tail of the y may extend further under some scripted letters than others. In others languages besides English, this occurs more often.

    The enable technology the article speaks about could help in this area if the X11 server was optimized to handle such bytecode interpretation internally. Then there is no need to fill the bitmap cache with every combination of shaped letters.

    What some of these anonymous cowards don't realize is the size of the cache needed to store all possible unicode characters combination with all shapes and styles applied, and then you should realize the cache method has become useless.

  23. Re:Can now embed into X11? by Dzonatas · · Score: 0

    Dyslexic typing is not trollish, and maybe you should be mindful of those of us with such disabilities.

    Notice that Slashdot has never added the "edit" feature to a comment, so that those of us with such disability can come back later and fix the comment. We just have to let live with trollish comments like yours when disabilities have taken over when we try to share the same abilities to post like you.

  24. Enable Byte Code (Fedora) by Linker3000 · · Score: 5, Informative

    Useful font stuff here:

    http://linuxtweaking.blogspot.com/2010/03/fedora-12-improving-awful-font.html
    I've just enabled byte code support on my laptop - makes a big difference.

    --
    AT&ROFLMAO
    1. Re:Enable Byte Code (Fedora) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well of course if you steal all the good Microsoft fonts from Windows (whose license pretty explicitly forbids you from doing just that, by the way), you get better fonts.

      You could also steal the latest versions of the Office 2010 fonts from PowerPoint Viewer 2010, if you ignore the terms of the download which, basically say "no stealing our fucking fonts!".

  25. Re:Am I the only one who thinks this looks terribl by maxwell+demon · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Well, it's simple: It gives good results if the designer of the font put considerable work into it (and the software correctly interprets it, but I assume that's the case). It gives terrible results if the font designer didn't. Now if it looks bad for free fonts, then I can imagine several possible causes:

    • There are simply no good font designers making free fonts. If that is the case, the patent expiring will not help.
    • The designers of free fonts didn't consider it worthwhile to put work in it because it was ignored by free software anyway. In that case the patent expiration will help, because now it will become worthwhile to them.
    • Or maybe it's just boring to do that specific work, and therefore few designers of free fonts do it (similar to the fact that often free software projects are badly documented). In that case the expired patent might have an effect, because the font designers don't have the patent excuse any more.
    • Finally I also could imagine that the patent also prevented free software from creating properly hinted fonts. In that case, again the expiring of the patent will probably help.
    --
    The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  26. Re:Can now embed into X11? by spitzak · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Though you might think so, this is incorrect. In modern fonts far less information is sent by transmitting the bitmap than the font description and this is how all modern font rendering works including on X with XRender.

  27. Re:Can now embed into X11? by mark-t · · Score: 1

    There are many adjectives or terms that could be used to describe posts on slashdot that are not among the ones normally listed. In addition to the one you recommend, -1 Misinformative, -1 Advertisement, -1 Suspicious link(s), -1 Conspiracy Theory, and -1 Tasteless are only a few that spring to mind.

  28. Re:Can now embed into X11? by Brett+Buck · · Score: 1

    Shouldn't that be +1 Tasteless?

  29. If Freetype was under GPL3, however by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    If Freetype was under GPL3, however, this would still not be violation of their patents because they are the owner. Likewise, any GPL product that wants to include the patent would be allowed also, since the GPL3 license says that.

  30. Yes, the sample shows what is wrong with "BCI" by ratboy666 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    "Improvement". Um... no, the details of what makes the font appear distinctive area destroyed by "BCI". The fonts are not the same -- perhaps in terms of set-width, but not at all for typographic detail.

    I guess "BCI" simply replaces the actual character forms with something else at lower pixel resolutions.

    For example, look at the 13th line in the example - look at the lower case "c" and "d". Notice that the "BCI" version is considerably more open. Indeed, it has become a much more modern font! Note that kerning would then have to change -- since the bodies of the letters are significantly larger, keeping the kerning rules of the original font would result in a very squished look. (actually, I believe the opposite happens these days -- kerning will simply be ignored, or the kerning rules of a modern font such as Times Roman are applied, and the look of the printed copy allowed to deteriorate.)

    At 300dpi resolution, it is very hard to produce proper fonts (I produced a very popular laser printer based proofing system in the 80s -- along with a complement of over 3,000 fonts, for typographers. Hinting at 300dpi did not give accurate enough results for the typographers of the time). At 600dpi it becomes a more reasonable proposition. At typical screen resolutions? Readability and font fidelity are not compatible for classical typefaces. "BCI" may be a solution for you, as long as you realize that what you are seeing on the screen is not actually reflected in print output.

    In general, I recommend that screen fonts be chosen for legibility. Until display technology catches up to 600dpi or greater, you just won't get classical fonts to both reflect readability and artistic intent.

    Using classic fonts as a primary display format for computer monitors is like viewing the Mona Lisa on a monitor encoded as a jpeg.

    --
    Just another "Cubible(sic) Joe" 2 17 3061
    1. Re:Yes, the sample shows what is wrong with "BCI" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I actually think the versions with byte code interpretation look closer to the actual fonts. Most of the distinctive features are left intact, insofar as this isn't fundamentally impossible at low resolutions, and the proportions of the font are corrected so that strokes that should have the same width and characters that shouldn't have widely diverging heights, are actually drawn correctly.
      Yes, some detail necessarily becomes invisible. But saying that this means that people shouldn't use classical fonts, but stick to MS Sans Serif and the like is silly. Firstly, people actually like classical fonts and it's bloody hard to outdo them, even at low resolutions. Secondly, screen legibility of well hinted classical fonts is generally excellent, even in comparison to many fonts that were specifically designed as screen fonts. And to top it off, dtp'ers need to have a feel for pages they're designing; you can't ask them to use screen fonts on screen and print a page for every print font they want to try.
      I'm actually somewhat of a typography enthusiast. I've found the badness and genericness that computers initially introduced bothering. Every time a technology gets (re)introduced that helps to fix this, someone like you raises out of the marshes and I weep.

    2. Re:Yes, the sample shows what is wrong with "BCI" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cross your eyes such that the two columns of examples overlap. Notice that the letters progressively "pop" out of the screen? The kerning has clearly been altered.

  31. Re:Can now embed into X11? by MrHanky · · Score: 1

    Good job getting this gibberish modded "interesting".

  32. Re:Am I the only one who thinks this looks terribl by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    go back to bitmapped fonts

    I'm still using bitmapped X fonts to this day, even in Firefox.
    I much prefer hand-tuned, razor-sharp characters to "hinted", blury ones.

  33. .. and yet they've relesed a buggy version by anton_kg · · Score: 1

    2.4.0 appears to be buggy so they have to re-release it as 2.4.1. Simply amazing ;-)

    1. Re:.. and yet they've relesed a buggy version by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's amazing that software has bugs, or it's amazing that they get fixed?

  34. the system is rigged by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Lawyers make up the bulk of congress. Of course they just automatically rig the system to benefit their guild, and why this apparent need for millions more laws, and writing them in inane gibberish or "lawspeak". It's a conflict of interest, and it has resulted in a rapidly approaching non functional society, the governmental and also the business side, as in the example right here, nutso software patents, for "products" that already enjoy copyright protection. One or the other, but both is clearly just abuse of society in general and is hindering, not advancing, the useful arts and sciences.

  35. Re:Can now embed into X11? by mark-t · · Score: 1

    The only reason I can think of that a tasteless comment would deserve a + moderation is if the remark also happened to be particularly amusing (possibly simply because of how tasteless it was). But we already have a mod score for that one: +1 funny.

  36. Worth celebrating? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Really? Celebrate over this? If your fonts looked like crap before you would have either enabled the flag and compiled it yourself or moved on to windows by now. Who the hell cares about the patent...

  37. Re:I thought it was 17 but 20 isn't bad.. but 100+ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Another person confused on the difference between patent, trademark, and copyright.

    Steamboat Willie gets a copyright extension because government is bought and paid for. Mickey Mouse will be a trademark as long as Disney exists. Neither of these are patents.

  38. Re:Can now embed into X11? by mqduck · · Score: 1

    I think Slashdot needs a "+/-0, WTF" mod.

    --
    Property is theft.
  39. Dastar v. Fox by tepples · · Score: 1

    Mickey Mouse will be a trademark as long as Disney exists.

    True, but at least in the United States, a trademark cannot be used to extend the exclusive rights in a copyrighted work past the copyright's expiration. Dastar v. Fox.

  40. Circular Transportation Facilitation Device by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Are you referring to the Circular Transportation Facilitation Device? (google it). Has already been patented, in Australia.

  41. Re:Can now embed into X11? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

    The 'normal' way of rendering text with a modern X server is to use the XRENDER extension. The client renders the glyphs that it will need for a particular font (typeface+size+attributes) to a buffer and sends them to the X server, as a set of images with an alpha channel. It then draws them by telling the X server where to composite them. On a modern GPU, the glyphs will be stored in VRAM and the GPU will handle the compositing. This is exactly the same mechanism that Apple uses with Quartz GL.

    A few years go (2003?), some guys at MS Research published a nicer method. TrueType fonts are constructed form Bezier curves. You can approximate a quadratic bezier using two triangles, giving a polygon that contains the line of the curve. The did this and then wrote a shader program that generated the curve from the polygon. The advantage of this approach is that the client only needs to provide a single image for each glyph in the typeface, not one for each size (and, because it's a simple vector image, it's often smaller, so takes less VRAM), and the GPU gets to handle the rasterization (which is basically what it's designed to do) as well as the compositing. I don't know if they actually did this for any shipping products yet.

    Oh, and the original post by Dzonatas was just incoherent rambling. I've no idea what he thought he was saying, but what he said was just a string of unconnected concepts.

    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  42. XPDF by lee1 · · Score: 1

    I use Ubuntu, so, according to some here, I already enjoy the benefit of this hinting algorithm. But is this why PDFs viewed in xpdf look so bad, with fuzzy type, but in acroread look fine? Is acroread using this algorithm, but xpdf is not?