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US Ability To Identify Source of Nuclear Weapons Decays

Hugh Pickens writes "The NY Times covers a report released by the National Research Council, which says the ability of the US to identify the source of a nuclear weapon used in a terrorist attack is fragile and eroding. The goals of the highly specialized detective work, known as nuclear attribution, is to clarify options for retaliation and to deter terrorists by letting them know that nuclear devices have fingerprints that atomic specialists can find and trace. 'Although US nuclear forensics capabilities are substantial and can be improved, right now they are fragile, under-resourced and, in some respects, deteriorating,' the report warns. 'Without strong leadership, careful planning and additional funds, these capabilities will decline.' The report calls on the federal government to take steps to strengthen its forensic capabilities and argues for the necessity of better planning, more robust budgets, clearer lines of authority and more realistic exercises."

9 of 139 comments (clear)

  1. What they're really saying with this story by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If a nuke goes off in a US city, we have an excuse for stalling on identifying who's responsible while politicians have a knee-jerk reaction and send US soldiers (or missiles, or UAV's) off on another enormously profitable foreign adventure. And if it turns out they're wrong, we can blame it on anonymous technicians with "decaying skills".

    1. Re:What they're really saying with this story by gandhi_2 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Nice job with the complete lack of understanding of WWII.

      Should we have invaded the Japanese Mainland conventionally? The Battle of Okinawa saw 110,000 dead Japanese troops and 40,000 - 150,000 dead Okinawan civilians. Over 12,000 dead US troops.

      And the second bomb was in case the first one didn't work.

    2. Re:What they're really saying with this story by afabbro · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The nuking of Japan wasn't about avoiding an invasion,

      Ah, yes it was, actually.

      it was first about preventing the Japanese from a separatist peace treaty with the USSR; and then about showing the USSR (and the rest of the world) who the boss is. And the second bomb was to show the world there's more than one.

      I know your history TA told you that, but academics are rewarded for being clever, not for being right. The reason you hear this sort of pap in colleges is that there is no money in simply recording and sharing the truth - one must deconstruct, analyze, and make new angles, right or wrong. In this case - quite wrong.

      --
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    3. Re:What they're really saying with this story by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 4, Informative

      United States Strategic Bombing Survey: Summary Report (Pacific War) was more of a argument in favor of funding for bombers over carriers than a definitive source to predict the outcome of an Allied Invasion of the Japanese Home Islands.

      My sources for this subject include, but are not limited to
      Douglas J. MacEachin, The Final Months of the War with Japan: Signals Intelligence, U.S. Invasion Planning, and the A-Bomb Decision

      J.C.S. 1388 “Details of the Campaign Against Japan”

      D. M. Giangreco "Operation Downfall (US Invasion Of Japan) US Plans And Japanese Counter-Measures"

      Joint War Plans Committee, Details of the Campaign Against Japan

      General Headquaters, US Armed Forced Pacific, Military Intelligence Summery, General Staff “Amendment No. 1 to G-2 Estimate of the Enemy Situation with Respect to Kyushu (dated 25 April 1945), 29 July 1945

    4. Re:What they're really saying with this story by fnj · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Stalin was ready to land in Hokkaido in early September, long before the US could attempt an invasion.

      Using what for a Navy? What landing craft and what supporting aircraft carriers and naval gunfire ships? What freighters and tankers for a supply train? The Soviet Navy in its entirety in June 1941 counted zero aircraft carriers, 2 battleships of 1909 design, 2 cruisers, 25 destroyers, 7 escort vessels, and 68 submarines. It hadn't grown much by August 1945, save in destroyers and submarines. I can't locate any evidence that they had any ocean capable landing craft at all. They most definitely had zero experience with mounting a seaborne invasion.

      The US Navy on 14 August 1945 counted 28 fleet aircraft carriers, 71 light and escort aircraft carriers, 23 battleships, 72 cruisers, 377 destroyers, 361 frigates and destroyer escorts, 232 submarines; 6768 total vessels, including thousands of landing craft.

      As others have noted, the Soviets could have savaged the Japanese army in Manchuria, but mounted an invasion of an island nation of around 100 million people? Not in anyone's dreams. Not for a long, long time after 1945. They had a large submarine force which could have choked off Japanese imports, but US submarines and other naval craft and airplanes had already done that. And none of this is to say that after annihilating Japanese forces in Manchuria, the Soviets might not have offered surrender terms which the Japanese would have accepted, particularly in light of US forces choking off all trade and imports.

      The true alternative to the nuclear bombing would never have been a fanciful Soviet invasion of the home islands. It was the complete destruction of the Japanese Navy, merchant marine, and war-making industries which had already been virtually completed by the US by that time. Starvation and continued conventional aerial devastation would have been the only future the Japanese could look forward to. The loss of Japanese life even absent an invasion could have been catastrophic, completely dwarfing the losses at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The losses to have been expected on both sides in the event of a US invasion have been extensively quoted, and there is no need to list them here.

  2. Single-mindedness by causality · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If a nuke goes off in a US city, we have an excuse for stalling on identifying who's responsible while politicians have a knee-jerk reaction and send US soldiers (or missiles, or UAV's) off on another enormously profitable [wikipedia.org] foreign adventure. And if it turns out they're wrong, we can blame it on anonymous technicians with "decaying skills".

    I wonder if you realize how right you are about the way the USA does things. From the summary:

    Although US nuclear forensics capabilities are substantial and can be improved, right now they are fragile, under-resourced and, in some respects, deteriorating,' the report warns.

    You know what else is fragile, under-resourced, and in many respects deteriorating? Our willingness to examine the connection between meddling in the affairs of soverign nations and their more radical factions' desire to go to extremes in order to attack us.

    For those who feel inclined to speak about this without having done any research (like that stops anyone these days), I'll sum it up briefly. The USA has a habit of using its intelligence services to overthrow democratically elected officials in foreign countries and usually replaces them with dictators more favorable to its economic interests. Iran during the 1950s is a good example, though only one of many. Do a little research and it is easy enough to come up with several examples of this behavior.

    Does anyone plan to argue that this does not constitute provocation in the eyes of those who suffer because of this practice? Yes, the way they retaliate is inhuman and reprehensible, particularly when they go after civilians. I fully agree with that. What I reject is the notion that "they hate us because of our freedoms". I think it's more like, they hate us because they want to be left alone. If that's the case, and if our goal is to end this sort of terrorism, our first responsibility is to end the practices of ours that encourage it. Then we are in a better position to go after the people who persist and come up with better ways to deter them.

    If anyone wants a list that they can start researching, I found a decent one here. It's just a list to help you get started. If you want to be informed on this subject you will have to do your own research. If you take the time to do that, however, what will amaze you is how little retaliation there has been.

    --
    It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
  3. Re:Huh? by TuballoyThunder · · Score: 4, Interesting
    And please explain how alpha mass spec analysis of spent fuel from a reactor would help with a U235 based weapon. Also, please explain how you would back out the fractionation of the debris. For extra credit, you can explain how activation products can facilitate your analysis.

    Also, Sandia is not the design lab you are looking for. You are confusing them with Los Alamos and Livermore.

    I respect the fact that you have a four digit UID, but the problem is not as trivial as you make it out to be.

  4. I'm no physicist... by Anachragnome · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I'm no physicist, but the first thing that came to mind--without having any idea how they actually track this stuff--is doping.

    One would think that the places that produced this stuff would automatically fingerprint it by doping the material with rare elements, stuff that can only be produced in expensive labs or the nuclear plants themselves--such as Neptunium and Protactinium. Just enough of the elements, and in proportions specific to the place of origin, to ID the source of the product.

    Whether or not this stuff would be intact and usable for identification purposes after a detonation, no idea, but it would at least allow for confirmation-of-source on materials before they are actually incorporated into a device. And, lets face it, this is the time we want to be identifying sources--not when we are taking ground-zero samples.

  5. Re:Huh? by jd · · Score: 4, Interesting

    They would be able to tell that a given sample was from a fast-breeder reactor, they'd also be able to tell that it was not one they'd got data for and they'd probably be able to tell which uranium mine the ore was from (there aren't many and no more are likely to be discovered at any depth we have the technology to operate at at this time). Since the fingerprint is unique, and since radioactive waste is awfully hard to get rid of subtly, it would be extremely quick and easy to find where the reactor was.

    An example of just how hard it is to hide these kinds of signatures -- the Russian who was poisoned by Polonium in London some years back. They can identify not only which reactor but which reactor vessel that Polonium came from. And that was with a very very trace sample. (As I recall, it was identified within a few hours of it being established Polonium was used.) Polonium has a half-life of 138.376 days. Since Britain closed Daresbury's 20MeV tandem accelerator, the options for doing a high-resolution run would have been limited, but they would certainly have been able to tell to within a day or two when the Polonium had been produced.

    THAT is the kind of fingerprinting that can be done. Hell, even with my A-Level project software, I was able to isolate almost every radioisotope in the Chernobyl fallout from just the gamma signatures and no AMS at all. (Every radioisotope not only has a unique mass, it also has a unique energy signature.)

    What would it take to get a sample for analyzing? Well, you get a bucket that you can open and close at both ends. You lower it into the water and take a sample. There won't be much plutonium or uranium floating near the surface, but there'll be enough even a few feet below to analyze. Back in 1978, that's how most of the research on the nuclear waste in the Irish Sea was done - with buckets, string, a dinghy and someone to keep look-out. Nothing fancier was needed and the results were staggeringly good. An actual core sample from the radioactive sludge would not have given you better results.

    The thing is, it's almost impossible for a reactor to not release enough waste for it to be (a) identified as a nuclear reactor, and (b) listed alongside its radioisotope signature. No country - USA and Russia included - has ever successfully hidden a reactor. At least, not for more than about a week. And the kit needed by a radiochemist to do any serious work is virtually nothing. At the time of Chernobyl, it was possible to take a mobile lab up to any farm in the Cumbrian hills and do studies of soil, lichen and sheep. If the US Navy can't fit such a lab into a small manned submersible or even an ROV, it's their own damn fault.

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)