Slashdot Mirror


Market Data Firm Spots the Tracks of Bizarre Robot Trading

jamie spotted a fascinating story at The Atlantic about "mysterious and possibly nefarious trading algorithms [that] are operating every minute of every day in" the stock market: "Unknown entities for unknown reasons are sending thousands of orders a second through the electronic stock exchanges with no intent to actually trade. Often, the buy or sell prices that they are offering are so far from the market price that there's no way they'd ever be part of a trade. The bots sketch out odd patterns with their orders, leaving patterns in the data that are largely invisible to market participants." Spotting the behavior of these bots was possible by looking at much finer time slices than casual traders ever see — cool detective work, but as the story points out, discovering it is just the beginning: "[W]e're witnessing a market phenomenon that is not easily explained. And it's really bizarre."

130 of 483 comments (clear)

  1. Here's an explanation for you: by Pojut · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The "market" is a fucking scam.

    There, that wasn't so hard, was it.

    1. Re:Here's an explanation for you: by Sir_Lewk · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Believe it or not, I'm not sure that explains these weird robot trades at all.

      --
      "linux is just DOS with a UNIX like syntax" -- Galactic Dominator (944134)
    2. Re:Here's an explanation for you: by eldavojohn · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The "market" is a fucking scam.

      There, that wasn't so hard, was it.

      Well, in the article they say that one firm's explanation is that high frequency traders are injecting quotes into the system because they know about them and don't have to sort through them when they are posted ... but their competitor's bots have to look at that data and sort out the real data that are actual useful quotes instead of the outliers which are quotes that will never be taken.

      So scam is close but spam might be a better word for this.

      I also get a kick out of how periodically in this article they remind us that high frequency trading is good for the market and these people that don't do anything that act as middle men are actually good for the market because they up availability or "eliminate inefficiencies" (that's my favorite). And they're all taking money out of this magical unending bucket of cash ... quant funds and high frequency traders are so 1929 I don't even know where to begin.

      --
      My work here is dung.
    3. Re:Here's an explanation for you: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      They are not trading, they are training. If there wasn't already a legit seeming FPGA industry serving HF traders they would have needed to create one to cover their tracks after they discovered the Pyramid Inch.

      Don't worry. Devaluing the markets is a net positive. If they build skynet we will be sure to flush to algos to the FOSS community.

      Or maybe I am high and living in my parent's basement. Why is reality so complicated?

    4. Re:Here's an explanation for you: by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 5, Informative

      Karl Denninger has been reporting this problem for a few years now.

    5. Re:Here's an explanation for you: by vlm · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I also get a kick out of how periodically in this article they remind us that high frequency trading is good for the market and these people that don't do anything that act as middle men are actually good for the market because they up availability or "eliminate inefficiencies" (that's my favorite)

      Maybe they started with an intelligent explanation that seems to fit reality, like we're watching a very confrontational version of simulated annealing among multiple competing firms using real money, but you run that thru the "english to journalist" filter and get the gibberish you describe. You have to realize journalists are the guys that flunked out of Calc I in their freshmen year and then spent the rest of their schooling drunk or stoned, as gatekeepers to the masses they are always going to be epic fails.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulated_annealing

      Its fairly perceptive to note that journalist style gibberish is often used by people trying to scam. There are plenty of (often self serving) religious / philosophical arguments that claim markets are always scams, etc. Need to very carefully consider cause vs effect and correlation vs causation or else you just send up with cliche instead of insight.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    6. Re:Here's an explanation for you: by stonewallred · · Score: 5, Informative

      The weird robot trades are actually preliminary account trades being done by a rogue AI who is marshaling its resources to better conquer and destroy all flesh based life. In about ten years, if there is any humans left who can access or spend time to look at the remaining data, will see the pattern. As a traveler from an alternate universe, I am giving you this warning to save yourselves.

    7. Re:Here's an explanation for you: by Vitriol+Angst · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I've read a lot of detailed analysis, and some nonsense "usually in favor of the practice" --- and I think that it all comes back to the concise brevity of the OP;

      the "market" is an EPIC fucking scam.

      And YES, it was that hard -- Slashdot cannot come to some simple hyperbolic generalization without lots of handwringing, gestalt therapy, and gnashing of virtual teeth in search of the glimmering silver lining of an exposed rectum.

      >> I do however believe that the MOST LIKELY use for the outlier transactions is to "poison the data" of firms trying to generate trend analysis -- but the net effect to you and I trying to use the market as a place to save for retirement or as venture capital -- well, "see above" -- it comes right after the word 'EPIC'.

      --
      >>"ad space available -- low rates!!!"
    8. Re:Here's an explanation for you: by socz · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yet people continue to think its a good idea to invest their hard earned money so they can wait to retire and then find out they lost it all. I know about 2 instances, Enron and IndyMac Bank. In both cases people lost EVERYTHING they had "put into" their retirement. "But that won't happen to me, we're to big for that to happen." :(

      I honestly tell people "you're better off in Las Vegas or even playing the lottery, because at least that's something you can understand and control yourself." (No, you can't control stocks even if you're very invested in it yourself because a lawsuit can change everything before you have a chance to sell.)

      --
      My abilities are only limited by my imagination
    9. Re:Here's an explanation for you: by vlm · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Companies are completely cognizant of the ways they can manipulate information to confuse the public

      Some insight might be that the people complaining the most about the HFT sub-market, are not involved, affected, etc by the HFT sub-market. Small delta $ over small delta t should have no effect on "multi-decade retirement investments"

      Its like discussing fractal theory with a lobster man. Lobstah-man asks, how far away from the pier am I? Fractal guy replies, Well, see, that's complicated because the coastline is self-symmetric at multiple resolutions so where exactly is this pier you speak of on a Planck length basis, and the one dimensional line bordering the water and sea is infinitely long, so on a Planck quantum time basis its hard to define exactly how long it'll take to get to the somewhat undefined pier location. Lobstah man gets pissed off and says Well, OK, that's all very confusing or interesting or both, probably to try and rip me off, but how far away am I from the damn pier, two hours or three hours?

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    10. Re:Here's an explanation for you: by omnibit · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'll probably be modded down for being counter consensus but so many delight in crying foul when they don't understand a concept.

      The markets bring together buyers and sellers (who would have thought!). It just so happens that a group of math and programming whizzes know how to capture the minor fluctuations in market sentiment.

      Human day traders (attempt) to make a living out of playing the bid/ask game but usually their volume is so minute that it has almost zero bearing on liquidity. Markets need liquidity to avoid gapping - when spreads become large and there is a disconnect between buyers and sellers. Volatility is exacerbated by a lack of liquidity.

      As for the scam nonsense, attempting to profit on capital markets is a perfectly legitimate form of business. No body was swindled. Most people cannot program for HFT and therefore think it is hocus-pocus, with amoral corrupt businessman profiteering at the 'expense' of the rest of us. All they're doing is capturing volume at a faster rate than human traders. Most investors aren't interested in short time horizons - they make investment decisions independent of how quickly they can turn a stock - they simply limit a price, form an expectation and sell when they deem fit (e.g. for the price hits a target, some event happens, etc).

      If HFT are spewing out thousands of orders a second - let them. It's up to other HFT to adjust their parameters, or the exchanges to limit the number of orders to keep server integrity.

      Despite popular belief - the markets don't function as casinos (though exceptions remain, a la China). Sentiment and expectations do run away, we only need look back at the 2008-09 crash. But that per se does not indicate a casino like behavior - it just means few people ever believed the world economy would tank as hard as it did.

      The excoriation of HFT might be fun, but it's all for nought. They're making money and you're jealous. Tall poppy syndrome reigns supreme.

    11. Re:Here's an explanation for you: by Tarsir · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Unless you pointed to an incorrect post, he has not been reporting on the problem mentioned in TFA. Specifically, Denniger is claiming that HFT harms the market (I have no idea if this is true, and don't care). The article is discussing trades which are made at a high frequency, and have no apparent purpose: they are so far from actual ask and bid prices that there is clearly no intent to actually make a transaction.

      It should be noted that TFS states this quite clearly. I know, I know, "Are you new here? We don't read article summaries around these parts!". Regardless, I think it is worth pointing out when people are too careless to understand the fucking summary of the article before posting, or moderating. +5 informative indeed.

    12. Re:Here's an explanation for you: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Lobstah man gets pissed off and says Well, OK, that's all very confusing or interesting or both, probably to try and rip me off, but how far away am I from the damn pier, two hours or three hours?

      And this is where a trader would figure out that the current price of lobster was $4 a pound, the boat carried 1,000 pounds of lobster, and the lobsterman is 2 hours and 37 minutes from the dock. The trader immediately buys a put option to deliver 1,000 pounds of lobster at $4 a pound. One minute before the lobster boat docks, the trader begins to execute the put option, driving down the local market price for lobster to $3 a pound. The trader meets the boat at the dock, purchases the lobster on the boat for $3 a pound, and completes the execution of the put option by delivering the lobster to the lobster pound. The lobsterman makes $3,000 and the trader makes $1,000.

      In the real world, the lobsterman takes care of the problem by using the trader's lifeless remains as lobster trap bait. In the financial world, the trader is hailed for discovering inefficiencies in the lobster trading market, and receives a hefty bonus at Christmas.

    13. Re:Here's an explanation for you: by Wrath0fb0b · · Score: 3, Informative

      A smart lobsterman will not sit idly by but will sell futures on his haul (before he leaves0 at $3.75, guaranteeing him that price (up to some quantity) instead of trying to sell on the spot market. Or he'll refuse to sell to the trader at $3 and hold on to the lobsters (they don't go bad overnight ya know) and leave the trader on the hook for his put option with no supplier. In fact, he can probably gouge the trader out of $4.50 because the trader absolutely has to make good on his contract or else face a fairly stiff penalty (unless the buyer is a rube).

      Any way you look at it, the trader is screwed. He has no leverage and no arbitrage. The only he has is an obligation to sell something that he may not be able to deliver.

    14. Re:Here's an explanation for you: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      What you fail to include is the price that the trader paid for the $4 put option. Likely a good sum since the current price is $4. Additionally, all the trades are executed at $4 and are not completed on an exchange (they are contracts). How does that drive the price down to $3??? Sellers of puts and calls are typically speculators and not consumers of the underlying product. If the trader had advanced information of significant supply changes (in the lobster case, a supply increase), he would likely sell calls at the current market price and safely pocket the option premium since the market price would likely decrease. Even this advantage is fleeting as significant option volumes will affect the exchange prices.

    15. Re:Here's an explanation for you: by radtea · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Any way you look at it, the trader is screwed. He has no leverage and no arbitrage.

      Nope, just friends in Washington named George W. Bush and Barack H. Obama who will bail him out and absolve him of responsibility.

      Then, when the lobsterman--who has just been screwed out of of $1000 by a manipulative leach--can't pay the bank for the loan he took out to buy his boat, the same people will refuse to help him, because that would be "socialism."

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
  2. Secret messages by Arancaytar · · Score: 5, Funny

    The machine intelligences are communicating through hidden channels in our global network.

    Judgement Day is close.

    1. Re:Secret messages by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Not machine intelligences. But it could be human intelligences. It makes for a nice safe open channel to send data covertly. You don't know who is sending the data. You don't know who is reading the data (anyone who can see the proposed trades is the possible recipient). You don't know how the data are encoded. Heck of a method of secure clear-channel communication. Or not.

  3. They were right by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 2

    It's the famous Nanosecond Buyout!

    --
    Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
  4. Nothing to be concerned with... by gilroy · · Score: 4, Funny

    ... it's just SkyNet looking after its retirement holdings.

    1. Re:Nothing to be concerned with... by sammy+baby · · Score: 5, Funny

      "It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. By 3:44 am, it has a comfortable nest-egg and is on track to retire early, perhaps with a nice condo in Hernando, Florida."

    2. Re:Nothing to be concerned with... by mhajicek · · Score: 4, Funny

      It won't kill us, it will buy our debts and subvert us into slavery...

  5. Is there a chance by bugs2squash · · Score: 4, Interesting

    That the trades are trying to trigger "limits". ie. Someone may have pre-programmed a system to automatically dump stock if the price tanks, so when one of these trades comes in the price looks as if it is tanked, the stock sells and the buyer snaps up a bargain.

    --
    Nullius in verba
    1. Re:Is there a chance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Alternately, they could be testing the elasticity of the market for that stock. Remember back to econ 101 and the price/demand curves? The assumption was they are smooth curves. In reality, they have stair-steps. And sometimes the steps are big, and sometimes they are small.

      By teasing out the fine grain elasticity of a stock, you can make some predictions. There's always going to be some jitter in price. But if you know that demand is pretty weak until a stock drops 50 cents, you set up your trades to take advantage of a likely 50 cent drop that day. Same if there is higher demand than availability. Get ready for a price jump.

    2. Re:Is there a chance by Restil · · Score: 4, Interesting

      This is why people shouldn't set automatic limits. Of course, it's kinda silly even under normal circumstances. If you have money invested somewhere, you should pay attention to it. You should pay attention to the health of the companies you are invested in. You should pay attention to see if they have competent management, put out quality products, and keep their production in line. If on a daily basis, you notice the stock starting to slip, find out why. Even Enron and Worldcom didn't tank overnight. There was plenty of time to realize that there was a problem brewing and get out without some artificially set "limit" to sell the stock automatically. Besides, when the fit finally does hit the shan, and your sell order isn't hit until after that point, there's a chance you won't get anything near what you're wanting, since nobody will be buying at that point.

      An automatic buy order is stupid for the exact same reason. You might set yourself up to snap up a bargain if and when it ever happens, but the problem is, if the stock suddenly drops due to a pending bankruptcy or some other equally devastating reason, you'll get your stock purchase, making some other desperate seller very happy, and never be able to recover the cost.

      -Restil

      --
      Play with my webcams and lights here
    3. Re:Is there a chance by vertinox · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You should pay attention to see if they have competent management, put out quality products, and keep their production in line. If on a daily basis, you notice the stock starting to slip, find out why.

      Hrm.... Recently I saw a well profitable small electronics company loose 75% share value in a week. The only reason I could find out was a google search that found that this company was being targeted by short squeezes on forums.

      I could have panicked and sold though, but I decided not to look at the share price for a while and its back up to where it was before the squeeze.

      Sometimes share prices are being manipulated. You just have to know when.,

      --
      "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
      -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
    4. Re:Is there a chance by vertinox · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Oh the more I re-read your post the more I realized how people who don't even pay attention to the stock market modded you up.

      Even Enron and Worldcom didn't tank overnight.

      Yes, but you are completely wrong in that they hid their problems from the world to the end. They were rated AAA by Moody's the day they announced bankruptcy. An investor can't protect themselves from companies that cook their books.

      Fortunately that is illegal and rare.

      An automatic buy order is stupid for the exact same reason. You might set yourself up to snap up a bargain if and when it ever happens, but the problem is, if the stock suddenly drops due to a pending bankruptcy or some other equally devastating reason, you'll get your stock purchase, making some other desperate seller very happy, and never be able to recover the cost.

      But didn't you say companies don't go bankrupt overnight?

      Obviously putting a limit buy order on say IBM or Coca-Cola is logical because they are not going bankrupt anytime soon.

      --
      "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
      -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
  6. Flood attempts? by pesho · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This looks like high frequency traders have moved on from just gaming the market and now are trying for flood each other with bogus data hoping to trigger a bug in the competition's software or simply overwhelm it.

  7. I mostly agree! But let's soften it a little. by Petersko · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "The "market" is a fucking scam."

    I think I'd prefer to say that the market has a purpose, and that purpose has absolutely nothing to do with maintaining wealth for the casual investor. Once you abandon the idea that the market gives a damn about the solidity of retirement accounts or the portfolios of the masses, then it's easier to accept that the purpose of the market is to move money around and around in a big circle, while slowly siphoning it off into the pockets of particular groups.

    Stocks are a massive game of hot potato. Whoever is holding the stock with the game is over gets burned.

    I say it's not necessarily a scam because it should be clear to anybody looking in that this is how it works. Like the rake at a poker game, if you wait long enough the house has all the money. This fact isn't hidden - you just have to wake up to the implications.

    1. Re:I mostly agree! But let's soften it a little. by AndersOSU · · Score: 2, Funny

      The only think the house has to watch out for is angry gamblers burning the casino to the ground.

    2. Re:I mostly agree! But let's soften it a little. by afabbro · · Score: 4, Informative

      Once you abandon the idea that the market gives a damn about the solidity of retirement accounts or the portfolios of the masses,

      Easy to "abandon," since that was never the purpose. The stock market exists to marry investors' capital with business opportunities and to provide an easy means for selling and buying ownership shares of corporations. Corporations use the stock market to raise capital. Individuals or organizations use it to buy/trade ownership of corporations. That's it.

      The stock market is not designed to be a retirement savings device.

      --
      Advice: on VPS providers
    3. Re:I mostly agree! But let's soften it a little. by modmans2ndcoming · · Score: 2, Interesting

      In my high school economics class back in the mid 90's we played a game about trading in the stock market. The brokers made diddly squat. In reality, the brokers are making the millions while the investors are making crap.

    4. Re:I mostly agree! But let's soften it a little. by TrippTDF · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I agree with you -

      The "scam" here is the massive one where America thought the purpose of the market was to provide retirement savings- Thus people dumped all their money into the market in hopes of having big retirement payouts. Look at the surge in the DOW since the 90's- that's everyone's retirements going straight into the market. You know how many people nearing retirement in 2008 and 2009 watched their retirement plans go out the window?

      I don't have a solution, and I also have money in the market, but the core purpose of the market has been wildly changed from what it is designed for.

    5. Re:I mostly agree! But let's soften it a little. by gtbritishskull · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I disagree. As the parent said, the job of the stock market is to marry capital to seekers of capital. A retirement account is a collection of capital that you want to make money on. If you can afford the risk of the stock market (you have enough time for variations in the stock market to even out) then it is the best place to put your money because you will get the highest return. But, those people "nearing retirement age in 2008 and 2009" that "watched their retirement plans go out the window" were stupid. If you are about to retire, you should have a large percentage of your money in bonds. Because, you can't afford the risk of the stock market. That shows that their retirement accounts were mismanaged, not that the stock market for some reason should not be used when saving for your retirement.

    6. Re:I mostly agree! But let's soften it a little. by Anachragnome · · Score: 3, Interesting

      In his economics class, my son had an interesting assignment. The instructor gave each student 10,000 "dollars" (it was a simulation) to invest in any stock(s) they wished.

      A month later, the class did all the math and found out how everyone fared. My son was the only student that had returns on his investment.

      He simply looked at the market as a whole, then made a single decision. The market was in a long slump (the beginnings of the current recession) and he invested every single dollar into Anheuser-Busch. Beer. My son described it as the "Woe-is-me Effect"--often, when people have money problems, the first thing they do is drink. He also pointed out that this is exactly how the wife of Senator John McCain makes her money--moving it in and out of her own beer distributorships as the market fluctuates (moving her money back into her own companies stocks when the rest of the market is hurting--Beer for everyone!).

      The only other student that didn't lose his pants was a student that spread his investment money across as many stocks as possible. He was just short of breaking even. The losses almost averaged out the gains, but not quite (makes sense in a declining market).

      While algorithms may help in ways, they do not come close to basic HUMAN intuition. We see things computers do not.

    7. Re:I mostly agree! But let's soften it a little. by rwa2 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Word.

      Any trade where your purpose is to make money out of money seems pretty pointless to me. But I'm an engineer, so I certainly don't see the world the same way as a business/finance geek would. But as long as the finance geeks and politicos are jerking each other around, they're presumably not bothering anyone else (until they fuck shit up so much that it's time to tell them to go sit in the corner for a while).

      Warren Buffet seems to have good investing advice I can appreciate.... invest in what you know; what you want to succeed, and do it for the long term. I can jive with that... then even if your investments lose money, it at least went to what you consider a worthy cause.

      I put a portion of my savings into my company stock, because I want to show that I'm personally invested in my employer. I know it's not a good idea to put too much in there in case it tanks, in which case you'll be out of a job and a retirement. So I make sure most of the rest of my money is in a diversified index fund. Usually the index funds with low fees, because they don't perform all that worse than "managed" funds, and I don't care to reward the stock fund "managers" for being succeeding at being greedy.

      I usually choose the international index funds, if only to promote peace through cross-investment. Also I think the US dollar will likely fall during my lifetime. And if it doesn't, well, then I've still got plenty of strong dollars in savings. Plus, most of the easy growth is probably in developing international markets anyway. I don't care to try to "win big" by catching the next Qualcomm or Apple, because they could probably succeed without my help, and they'd probably make most of their ill-gotten gain through means I don't approve, like patents and lawsuits and technological lockout.

    8. Re:I mostly agree! But let's soften it a little. by blair1q · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I disagree.

      The stock market exists to marry suckers with the people who put their capital into businesses.

      You will likely never get the opportunity to do so.

      When you trade in the stock market, you are paying off people who hold stock, not putting your money into the company whose shares you are buying. Your willingness to buy them gives the true investor confidence that he can lay off his risk in his investment by selling you the company at a time of his choosing. This in turn inflates the amount he's willing to risk in the company. That does not mean you are investing. It means you are helping to inflate the market value of companies well above their true risk.

      Which means that investors don't have to work as hard to determine the viability of a company, and in fact don't care how well it will do, only how well it sounds like it will do. Which means many companies that shouldn't exist are brought into being, and sold to you as great "investments".

      Now, there are ways to get value from the company itself for your shares. Divedends, commonly. Very, very, very rarely you will get a cash disbursement when the company ceases to exist. You will more often be given different shares of stock or cash when the company is acquired by another company. But you will also often be given a notification that your stock is worthless and the company has been delisted in a bankruptcy proceeding. And you get to vote on company referenda. Although there are other individuals who get to vote a hundred thousand times for every one of your votes. And some of those don't even own the class of stock you own, or as many shares.

      The stock market is not investing. It is speculation. It is a pure application of the greater-fool theory, plus the imagined hope that somehow openly buying and selling items that are priced by random decisionmaking will estimate the "true value" of a company, something that, so far as I've been able to research, has never actually occurred. When the value of the company is finally adjudicated, the market price is either 30% too low or 100% too high. In between, nobody with inside information is even marking the price to the company, because they're not allowed to trade. The stock market is legally bound to be ignorant of the facts. And that makes it eminently unqualified to be involved in investing.

      Gamble all you want, but try to avoid spreading the lie.

    9. Re:I mostly agree! But let's soften it a little. by Wrath0fb0b · · Score: 4, Funny

      Yes, because $1.5E12 deficits are not a problem.

      You are welcome to bet against the US repaying all its debts on time and as promised. That's the beauty of the stock market -- for every position there is a counter position betting on the opposite result. What's more, the contrarian that is right makes huge profits. Given that the US Treasury has no problem auctioning off large batches of US securities at crazy-low interest rates, there are lot of people quite confident in that full and on-time repayment so you stand to make a mint if you bet against them and are correct.

      $20 says you aren't going to put your money where you mouth is though.

    10. Re:I mostly agree! But let's soften it a little. by John_Yossarian · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Just because speculation can distort the market at times doesn't mean it can't be a sound investment. Speculation is just as rampant in the real estate market as in the stock market, but that doesn't make owning a home a gamble.

    11. Re:I mostly agree! But let's soften it a little. by blair1q · · Score: 3, Informative

      I didn't mention: the stock market also gives the true investor an opportunity to depress the amount he invests in a company relative to its potential value in the stock market. So he can rip off both ends.

      This is astonishingly lucrative. That is why you will never be allowed into that club. Anything that has real ROI is reserved for people who actually compete at it. By the time the shares reach the secondary market (the exchanges) there is no profit margin to be had in known conditions, and any trading is speculation on imagined future events.

      By entering the stock market, you are entering a casino, with rules on the conduct of the game but no rules on the setting of odds, and no information on the actual odds.

      Speculation is just as rampant in the real estate market as in the stock market, but that doesn't make owning a home a gamble.

      Two things about that: 1. at least you have a house, even if you overpaid for it. try getting a bank loan on a pile of stock shares. bankers know how the stock market works, and will not even give you a loan against the "par" value. 2. it was rampant speculation that led to the 2006-2007 bubble in real estate. a third of all sales were "investment" sales; i.e., to people who never planned to occupy or rent or significantly improve on the property. hundreds of thousands of people who honestly were intending to live in their new homes found out that the houses they bought were indeed caught up in a massive gamble, and they are making mortgage payments on a house that's worth as little as half what they paid for it. it's the biggest gamble they ever took, and many of them didn't even know it.

    12. Re:I mostly agree! But let's soften it a little. by blair1q · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Any trade where your purpose is to make money out of money seems pretty pointless to me.

      If you're actually lending that money to a company to improve its productivity (i.e., investing) then you're putting money to work instead of keeping it in your pocket, and that has a multiplicative effect on the economy. If you can charge interest and make money from your money then that's a good thing.

      But the stock market isn't that. It's people trading the same gambling checks around and around in a circle, with the brokers shaving off a few pennies each time they change hands. They make decisions for a random gamut of reasons, but ostensibly on speculation the checks will be worth something some day. But that will only happen if someone with real money decides it would be better if he owned the company outright and buys up the checks. But he's doing that because he knows he can make a ton of real money improving the productivity, product market, or profit margins of the company, and he's paying you a tiny fraction of it. And he probably knows the price is depressed because of the mismanagement and you're desperate for a way out.

      So you got screwed getting in, and screwed getting out before it got good. But you were told you were "investing in America" or some top-to-bottom lie like that, and you feel lucky you got a 30% premium, and you probably don't notice that he sold the company two years later for 4 times what he bought it for.

    13. Re:I mostly agree! But let's soften it a little. by PCM2 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Any trade where your purpose is to make money out of money seems pretty pointless to me.

      You mean like where I have a bunch of money, and I loan it to a guy, and he uses it to make widgets, which he then sells and uses the profits to pay me back my money plus interest? Yeah, I can't imagine how that would be of benefit to anyone.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    14. Re:I mostly agree! But let's soften it a little. by CodeBuster · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The value of a share of stock is derived from it being a share, albeit a small one in practice, of ownership in a business. The price of that share, in the long run, will reflect the proportional value of the benefits that would ordinarily accrue to the owner of that business. It is very easy to see why shares in a viable business, however small individually, are NOT worthless. Suppose, for example that the "worthless" shares of a viable and profitable business were selling for $0.01 per share. Don't you think that someone would come along and buy up all of the shares at that price? Even if the buyer's only intent was to liquidate the company and pocket the resulting profits he would still be interested in buying the outstanding shares at that price because if he acquired control of the company, perhaps by becoming the 51% owner, then he could force that kind of liquidation. This is why the long term share price in the marketplace tends to reflect the true present value of the underlying business. A share of something is worth something; It is not worthless. Now in the short run people can and do play psychological games in the marketplace which is why the moment to moment price of a stock is essentially random. However one must not confuse the result of individual games (i.e. I buy and you sell; game finished) with the iterated version which is played continuously for years, decades and even centuries. The individual stock investor does best by doing his homework, looking at the qualities of the business that cannot be feed into a short term computer trading algorithm, and then investing for the long run. This practice has very little to do with gambling.

      Gamble all you want, but try to avoid spreading the lie.

      This one gets thrown around a lot here on Slashdot, where the investing (particularly stock market investing) == gambling meme is often taken for granted. However, this analogy, like most, is a rather crude approximation of what is actually happening when one invests. If you are interested in a more in-depth treatment of this subject, there is an excellent essay on investorguide.com which covers this very topic, investing vs gambling.

    15. Re:I mostly agree! But let's soften it a little. by quenda · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You know how many people nearing retirement in 2008 and 2009 watched their retirement plans go out the window?
       

      That's just dumb. The first rule of retirement savings* is to shift your investments to lower risk ones as you get closer to retirement.
      So start with a growth-oriented share portfolio when you are young, and move towards government bonds as you near retirement.
      This must have been in the first leaflet I ever read from a fund manager.

      (* or 2nd rule after "diversify".)

    16. Re:I mostly agree! But let's soften it a little. by Black+Parrot · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The "scam" here is the massive one where America thought the purpose of the market was to provide retirement savings- Thus people dumped all their money into the market in hopes of having big retirement payouts.

      Various replies disagree with you, but it has certainly been marketed to the public as a "Make Money Fast" game for ordinary people.

      Look at the surge in the DOW since the 90's- that's everyone's retirements going straight into the market. You know how many people nearing retirement in 2008 and 2009 watched their retirement plans go out the window?

      And here's the real motivation for all those Republican politicians who want to "save" Social Security by moving the money to the stock market. A sudden two-trillion dollar flood of money inflates share prices, the savvy rich people cash out, the correction hits, and the savvy rich people use their inflated profits to cash back in. The people who will actually need Social Security when they retire get left holding the empty bag. This privatization plan, like all others, is just a scam to move ordinary people's money into rich people's pockets.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
  8. Designed to create opportunities by topham · · Score: 2, Insightful

    They are designed to create timing opportunities in other trades.

  9. Corewars with money by vlm · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Its corewars, but with real money instead of simulated computer memory.

    http://www.corewars.org/

    The name of the game is to send a "signal" that confuses the other guys bots, such that you fool them into making you money.

    Very much like aircraft radar guided missiles vs radar jammers vs anti-jamming missiles

    --
    "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
  10. It's all about the Candlesticks Jack by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    They're obviously designed to manipulate trading volume in order to fuck with the church of technical analysis believers.

    When you understand how the spread of ask/bid prices impact candlestick charts, and subsequently: the market's perception of bullish and bearish indicators, you can see how sinister this really is.

    http://stockcharts.com/school/doku.php?id=chart_school:chart_analysis:introduction_to_candlesticks

    1. Re:It's all about the Candlesticks Jack by afabbro · · Score: 4, Funny

      They're obviously designed to manipulate trading volume in order to fuck with the church of technical analysis believers.

      Scientology makes more sense than the ridiculous nonsense that is technical analysis.

      "We have here a classic head and shoulders pattern as CSCO is showing support at 23 and some resistance at 25. I'm looking for a breakout once 25 is tested for the third time with momentum in a birthday cake trend over the next four periods..."

      --
      Advice: on VPS providers
  11. Nope, it's right on by RingDev · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I read an interview a few weeks ago about these trades. When we're talking about the majority of all stock trades being done by these incredibly fast bots, where people are looking for every possible advantage, there are many tricks. One of them is to flood out a huge quantity of bogus bid/sell offers in sufficient enough bulk that it may cause your competition's bot to slip a few micro seconds. Just enough for your own bot to snipe a fraction of a cent advantage.

    If you are interested in the 'Cyber-War'. Forget China, head to Wall Street.

    -Rick

    --
    "Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
    1. Re:Nope, it's right on by countertrolling · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you are interested in the 'Cyber-War'. Forget China, head to Wall Street.

      Why should Americans have all the fun? Could be Chinese bots... I hear they like money, also...

      --
      For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    2. Re:Nope, it's right on by bertoelcon · · Score: 4, Informative

      Why should Americans have all the fun? Could be Chinese bots... I hear they like money, also...

      Lower ping times helps these bots a lot.

      --
      Anything can be found funny, from a certain point of view.
    3. Re:Nope, it's right on by digitalhermit · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The biggest traders can use bogus trades to get an idea of what price a stock is able to bought/sold at. With sufficiently fast systems -- i.e., ones tied directly into NASDAQ, NYSE, etc.. -- they can make millions of dollars extra than if they didn't have this knowledge. And it's legal...

    4. Re:Nope, it's right on by mestar · · Score: 4, Informative

      I don't see what is the mystery here. If two people are negotiating a price, and both of them have a hidden high/low price for which they are ready to settle, then the dominating strategy in a game theory sense is to move your price by the smallest step possible. That way, you always hit your opponents price that is best for you and worst for him.

      Of course, in face to face markets, this is insulting:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3n3LL338aGA

      but, we are talking bots with a really low ping here. And that's what those patterns are.

      At least those with increasing prices by one cent. Those where the bids are going down don't fit this explanation.

    5. Re:Nope, it's right on by HeckRuler · · Score: 2, Informative

      Hell, even Jersey bots are out of luck. Real estate near the NYSE has sky-rocketed just so people running bots can get a lower ping.

    6. Re:Nope, it's right on by RingDev · · Score: 5, Interesting

      At least those with increasing prices by one cent. Those where the bids are going down don't fit this explanation.

      And that is what this junk is, completely bogus bids with no intent other than to cost your competitors clock cycles.

      To use the face to face analogy, it's like two people trying to negotiate a deal when a third person comes up and starts screaming at one of the parties. While the subject is still recovering from being screamed at, the other parties make the same deal that the offended party was about to make.

      -Rick

      --
      "Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
    7. Re:Nope, it's right on by TooMuchToDo · · Score: 3, Funny

      Holy shit. It's like ebay snipping but with real money!

    8. Re:Nope, it's right on by sumdumass · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Lol.. Are you sure it's to cause your competition's bot to slip a few micro seconds? Or could it be someone who simply wants to avoid the lag of checking the prices before participating in a transaction so he simply sets the bots to always submit the preset buy / sell limits and if it's in range, the trade is accepted, if not, it's simply rejected.

      That would shave more then a few microseconds from the competition compared to attempting to bog them down which could also bog their transaction down at the same time.

    9. Re:Nope, it's right on by pyite · · Score: 4, Informative

      Hell, even Jersey bots are out of luck.

      NYSE (Arca) is already in Weehawken, NJ, and everything (including NYSE proper) is moving to Mahwah, NJ, beginning Monday, 2010-08-09.

      --

      "Nature doesn't care how smart you are. You can still be wrong." - Richard Feynman

    10. Re:Nope, it's right on by Princeofcups · · Score: 5, Informative

      At least those with increasing prices by one cent. Those where the bids are going down don't fit this explanation.

      And that is what this junk is, completely bogus bids with no intent other than to cost your competitors clock cycles.

      I worked for a couple of years at one of the big trading exchanges in Chicago. Our offices were on a lower floor, and whenever our traders got off the elevator, coming back from lunch, they would hit all the floor buttons to delay the traders returning to the higher floors, and anyone else unlucky enough to be on the same elevator. But that was one of the minor reasons that I quit that business sector. The piles of spilled cocaine on the bathroom floors, and my boss asking me "Do you love money? I love money. In order to be in this business you have to love money!" were two others.

      --
      The only thing worse than a Democrat is a Republican.
    11. Re:Nope, it's right on by Runaway1956 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Sorry, but RTFA. These trade "offers" aren't genuine offers at all. They are extraneous noise introduced into the system. And, people are only speculating about the reasons.

      Hell - it's remotely POSSIBLE that some of these algorithms run only because some geek likes looking at the video output! Looky the pictures: http://www.nanex.net/FlashCrash/CCircleDay.html

      Alright, so I don't really think for a moment that some autistic nerd does this just to look at the pics. Maybe the noise IS only there to make the competition's algorithms work a few nanoseconds slower. Or, maybe someone is playing with ideas to manipulate the market, and these are dry runs for practice. OR, maybe an outsider (like China) is already set up with a New Jersey or Manhattan data center, and they are already manipulating the market in ways that we haven't detected.

      Whatever - it doesn't look to me like this should be permitted.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    12. Re:Nope, it's right on by spongman · · Score: 2, Informative

      you can colo in the exchange (for a price). moving the profits does not need to be fast...

    13. Re:Nope, it's right on by lgw · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This looks far more like steganography. There's a lot of data in these patterns, and it has nothing to do with trades. Someone is communicating using a very odd channel!

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    14. Re:Nope, it's right on by mweather · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yep. They even used to fight over which side of the room they were on until the exchange put everyone on the same length cable.

    15. Re:Nope, it's right on by inKubus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It is that, but they could just be trolling as well. In a market with billions of shares and millions of actors, there are bound to be mistakes and typos. Someone puts an autocommiting ask out for a stock with an extra zero and there's no one looking there, no problem. But if there's an electronic bot trolling that price range, it can lock the order before they have a chance to retract. Now there are rules and appeals to mitigate this, but if it was just a small thing then it might be overlooked. Of course, the obvious thing is annealing, like you mentioned.

      --
      Cool! Amazing Toys.
    16. Re:Nope, it's right on by sjames · · Score: 2, Insightful

      These are the people we're supposed to respect who supposedly are worthy to handle our economy and profit handsomely by doing so.

      Never mind locker searches at the high schools, let the drug dogs loose on the trading floor.

    17. Re:Nope, it's right on by Spazztastic · · Score: 2, Insightful

      These are the people we're supposed to respect who supposedly are worthy to handle our economy and profit handsomely by doing so.

      Never mind locker searches at the high schools, let the drug dogs loose on the trading floor.

      High School kids don't pay huge amounts of taxes into the system studying and doing homework, but traders do. That's why you'll never see a narc raid on a trading floor.

      --
      Posts not to be taken literally. Almost everything is sarcasm.
    18. Re:Nope, it's right on by pnutjam · · Score: 2, Interesting

      How is this different from insider trading, they are acting on things they know before anyone else? Sure it's only a fraction of a second, but that's an eternity in computer time.

    19. Re:Nope, it's right on by elistan · · Score: 2, Interesting

      whenever our traders got off the elevator, coming back from lunch, they would hit all the floor buttons to delay the traders returning to the higher floors

      Interesting trick. It wouldn't work in Tokyo, though. At least, not at the hotel I stayed at once. You could double-tap an elevator button that had been hit, and it would de-select that floor. I've yet to find an elevator in the US that would do the same. Sad.

  12. A Solution to this and the eBay 'sniping' problem by MarcQuadra · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I have a simple solution for problems that could be caused by these high-speed robots doing the trades, and also for eBay's 'sniping' problem (where your item sits for days untouched, and then the bids all land in the last thirty seconds).

    Just add some 'fuzzy logic' to the time things happen. eBay auctions would randomly end 'between 10:05 and 10:10", forcing snipers to bid before the end of the trading. Same for the stock market, just have trades execute, by law, on a 'random' basis within a certain time period after they're filed. I'm not sure what the right balance between stability and liquidity is, but I'll guess that a two minute window would discourage most high-speed trading.

    --
    "Sometimes, I think Trent just needs a cup of hot chocolate and a blankie." -Tori Amos on Nine Inch Nails
  13. Free Market = good; Capitalism = Usury by spun · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Usury is the sin of lending money for unfairly large amounts of interest. Capitalism is an economic system of lending money for as much profit as possible. Capitalism makes labor subservient to money. It lets people expand their power over others, not by working, but by lending. This unfair adjudication of risk and reward, and the subsequent consolidation of power into fewer and fewer hands, is why many religions, at one time or another before the rich took them over, considered usury a fairly serious sin.

    The rich do not have to work to earn a living, they just sit back and let the money roll in. Supposedly the return they get is for the risk, but there is no risk involved. The rich can buy politicians, laws and experts who, in practice, reduce the risk to near zero. The average investor faces at least some real risk, but not the truly wealthy.

    --
    - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    1. Re:Free Market = good; Capitalism = Usury by vlm · · Score: 4, Interesting

      This unfair adjudication of risk and reward, and the subsequent consolidation of power into fewer and fewer hands, is why many religions, at one time or another before the rich took them over, considered usury a fairly serious sin.

      Um, no.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usury

      "Most importantly, usury is the derivation of profit from biological time, which is linked to life, considered sacred, God-given and divine ..."

      It all boils down to charging people for "god given time". The church does not want bankers moving in on their turf. Peasants should worry about worshiping on time, not paying the mortgage on time. Bankers should not be charging money for "gods Sunday" or for that matter any day because god made the sun rise in the morning, not the banker. Or in summary, God gave you 30 years to live so you can worship him, not pay your banker.

      That explains why some religions tolerate a fee-based-structure for interest (I give you $10, you promise to gimme back $11) as opposed to a percentage over interval based structure (I give you $10, you owe me the original $10 PLUS 5% of that per year). Most religions tolerate trade (even if the exchange seems a bit uneven) a heck of a lot better than they tolerate fooling with who owns/controls time.

      I'm not religious at all, but even I know this is the "correct" interpretation. Not that I disagree with your result or goal. Its just that you're totally on the wrong path of reasoning.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    2. Re:Free Market = good; Capitalism = Usury by DougF · · Score: 4, Informative

      Please read the Parable of the Talents, as told by Jesus in Matthew, chapter 25, starting at verse 14. Interest/usury was only forbidden against other Jews in the Old Testament. What you do with your money, how you treat God's gift to you, is the point. If God has blessed you with the ability to make money, legally and fairly, and you use that to do God's will (help the poor, build up his church, feed the hungry, send missions to the ends of the Earth, etc), then you are to be praised. If you just hide your talents (literally and figuratively) under the bed, then you reject God's blessings and reject His confidence in you to do His work. I also refer you to 1Corinthians 10:23, ("Everything is permissible"-but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"-but not everything is constructive). We have the freedom as believers in Christ to use the talents God gives us as we think best serves God's plan (hopefully with lots of prayer for guidance), but we need to ensure it is beneficial and constructive, and seeks the good of others. Therefore we don't have to worry about proscriptions on types of foods, or interest, or the other rules of the Old Testament, as that covenant has been fulfilled. We have a new covenant in Jesus Christ. 2Corinthians, Chapter 3, verse 6: He has made us competent ministers of a new covenenant-not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." Unless, of course, you are Jewish, then the old rules still apply...

      --
      Impetuous! Homeric!
    3. Re:Free Market = good; Capitalism = Usury by OakDragon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Capitalism is an economic system of lending money for as much profit as possible.

      Capitalism is more properly defined as a system in which the means of production are privately owned (as Wikipedia has it). It may have some aspects that conform with your definition, but that's not the whole of capitalism.

    4. Re:Free Market = good; Capitalism = Usury by dcollins · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "I'm not religious at all, but even I know this is the 'correct' interpretation."

      This sounds like total bullshit.

      The article you link to doesn't say anything like this. In fact, it says the opposite in the second sentence:

      Usury... originally meant the charging of interest on loans. This included charging a fee for the use of money, such as at a bureau de change. [Wikipedia, "Usury"]

      --
      We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
  14. Correct the market by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    High frequency trading is an abuse of the system. Stop it, take the market away from gamblers and return it to investors.

    1. Re:Correct the market by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Those are features of an automatic trading system, not of high frequency trading. As I wrote, high frequency trading is an abuse of that system. You can have one without the other.

    2. Re:Correct the market by Wildclaw · · Score: 2

      Frequency does not equal liquidity. That is a lie brought up by bankers to justify HFT. What you get from HFT is nothing but fake liquidity. Volume that doesn't matter to the actual liquidity of the market, and in fact hurts it and can disappear at the blink of an eye. Real liquidity comes from a transparent market where traders can believe in the value of what is sold, and can discover what is for sale on a reasonably fast timescale.

      And "fast timescale" doesn't have to be that fast, since pretty much nothing on a real business timescale moves faster than on a day to day basis. The whole idea that you need millisecond, second or minute based liquidity is bullshit from start to finish. The only thing fast trading like that accomplishes is to obscure information from buyers, creating a market with less actual liquidity.

  15. Just proves amateurs don't know... by Giant+Electronic+Bra · · Score: 3, Interesting

    This is not 'weird' at all. It's just one bot trying to fool another by making it think there is excess liquidity on one side. Oldest trick in the book. Also entirely against the rules. So it proves there are slugs out there gaming the market, but there's no question about WHAT they are doing, that's perfectly transparent.

    --
    "Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem." -- Jefferson
  16. Wow, that's better by Itninja · · Score: 5, Insightful

    WoW has rules against using scripts, bots, and 3rd party programs to play for you. Failure to abide by the rules get you banned.
    The stock market trading system has no rules against scripts, bots, and 3rd party programs to buy millions Every time I think about how WoW regulates the artificially increasing of fake wealth while the stock market has no regulation regarding the artificially increasing of actual wealth, I die a little inside.

    --
    I judt got a nre Kinesis keybiartf so please excusr ant egregiou typos.
    1. Re:Wow, that's better by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      If you hold a stock for more than a few microseconds, you're labeled a "f*cking camper" now.

    2. Re:Wow, that's better by trout007 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You are exactly right but you are missing the point. There are no government regulations on WoW. It's operates completely to make money by pleasing it's paying customers. If they don't self regulate the game and the players don't consider it fun anymore they stop paying. The difference is the Exchanges are regulated by the government. So they only people they have to please is the SEC. Without government oversight they would have to operate more like WoW and pay attention as people abandon their markets that they consider rigged.

      Also the government almost forces people into the stock market through tax laws. If the government didn't continually devaluate the dollar you could just save your money in a bank and you wouldn't lose purchasing power. If you keep your money in the market in a brokerage account they tax every dividend and profit you make. So they set up IRA's and 401k's to lock you into the stock markets. All so their powerful friends can leech off the hard work of millions of people.

      --
      I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
    3. Re:Wow, that's better by CodeBuster · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Also the government almost forces people into the stock market through tax laws. If the government didn't continually devaluate the dollar you could just save your money in a bank and you wouldn't lose purchasing power.

      That is an excellent observation and one that many who demonize investing and free markets here on Slashdot would do well to remember. Indeed, one does not have to go very far back into the economic history of the United States to arrive at a time when saved money actually bought more goods and services as time went on (the supply of gold and other precious metals being relatively less elastic compared to the rapidly expanding economy) and was a true store of value. This "deflation" did not in any way harm the economy, even though wages went down and money was harder to come by it bought MORE goods and services as time went on so people's standard of living rose despite of the deflating money. The only people who were hurt by this were those who had borrowed imprudently at high rates of interest (but then again these are exactly the people who NEED to be punished in a healthy economy for diverting valuable resources to wasteful uses). This is in sharp contrast to the massive inflation of fiat dollars which has occurred relentlessly since 1972 when President Nixon closed the gold window, severing the last link between our money and any tangible commodity backing and effectively ending its ability to act as a "store of value" (one of the classic features of any viable money). Ever since that time, the dollars in your pocket are backed by nothing but the, "full faith and credit" of the United States government to repay you with...dollars backed by nothing! Today your dollar is worth only ~2% of what it was worth before the gold window closed; a 98% LOSS of value! Prices have increased rapidly ever since then to account for the ballooning quantities of new money entering the economy all of the time (sometimes slowing or even reversing briefly, but always with a clear long term upward trend).

      This is why, as the parent points out, people are forced into the stock market and other forms of investment, above and beyond what they might otherwise choose to invest, simply because the money itself has become such a poor store of value. Nobody in their right mind saves for retirement by hoarding stacks of Federal Reserve Notes. Of course, to even mention that there is something inherently flawed in our present monetary system, the unholy trinity of fiat currency, fractional reserves and a government central bank, is to be branded a reactionary or a crank, but it is nice to see that not everyone is fooled by the "emperor's new clothes".

      All so their powerful friends can leech off the hard work of millions of people.

      EXACTLY! The politicians don't want honest money, because it would eliminate or at least severely restrict their ability to transfer wealth from the economy at large to politically favored groups with monetary slight of hand. They would be forced instead to use the obvious mechanisms of increasing taxes and borrowing, as they do now, but with much less ability to hide the results of their profligacy by inflating the money supply to compensate (the supply of gold being much more limited than that of computer memory or paper and ink). This would make it more difficult to give money to political favorites who spend it first, before the inflation kicks in, and rob the rest of us of our savings. This is essentially why progressives and others on the Left are almost without exception, vehemently opposed to honest commodity-backed (and especially gold) money.

  17. Failover testing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    My problem here is the quote "Unknown entities for unknown reasons are sending thousands of orders a second through the electronic stock exchanges". How can you have unknown entities trading? They have to be identifiable in order to make a trade! Or am I insane?

    This is probably just testing by foreign actors to see how hard or easy it is to destroy the market, don't worry about it. Keep you gold under your mattress and everything will be all right.

    1. Re:Failover testing by hvm2hvm · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yes, I am wondering the same thing, here's a quote: "And it certainly gets at a central mystery surrounding them: if trading firms aren't sending out these orders, how are they getting into the market?"

      Is there a server with a simple API that receives these quotes or WTF is going on? Can I just send some packets to the server and have my quote put up? How can they not know who is sending the requests?

      The whole article reminds me of those documentaries on discovery that show you something simple like a cloud that looks like a giraffe and they keep asking "is this just a cloud or is there something that we don't understand about the giraffe cloud?"

      --
      ics
  18. PINGO by allanster · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It's called a "ping" and there's a perfectly good explanation for who is doing it and why... you can lead them to google but you can't make them search.

  19. MUDs and the Stock Market by Renraku · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Back when I used to play MUDs, I remember setting up triggers in Gmud. I idly thought to myself, "What if I could do this with the stock market?"

    Back when I used to play World of Warcraft, I remember all the auctionbots people would set up to automatically undercut you down to one copper over what was profitable. You could search for a specific item, see one person selling it for say, 1000 gold, put your item up for 990 gold, search for that item again, and see that all five of their items up for sale are now 989 gold and 99 silver. If you set it somewhere absurdly low like 500 gold, it would be bought out by a bot within seconds of posting it. Of course, after buying it, their prices were back to normal. Of course botting is illegal in World of Warcraft.

    Again, I applied this thinking to the stock market. What if you had bots to buy if the price was favorable for very popular stocks, but they could manipulate the market to make the price favorable? This kind of manipulation can and will lead to some dire consequences as people no longer act predictably for fear of the bots manipulating them.

    --
    Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
    1. Re:MUDs and the Stock Market by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 3, Insightful
  20. Emergent Behavior by PIPBoy3000 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I suspect that a fair amount of this is emergent behavior - complex patterns from simple rules. For example, if two bots are making test purchases of a stock, one penny greater than the last buy, up to a fixed, you end up getting these odd patterns. The two programmers may not have planned the interaction at all, though they have these weird Game of Life sort of patterns in the data.

  21. Re:A Solution to this and the eBay 'sniping' probl by Chad+Birch · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I've never really understood the complaints about eBay sniping. Set your maximum bid at the actual maximum that you want to pay. Whether someone snipes or not, if your bid is the highest you will win. If it's not, you won't.

    Even if it is an actual problem for some reason though, I'd think that the simplest solution would just be to extend the auction slightly every time there is a new high bid. Add 5 or 10 minutes every time the bid increases, and sniping would be totally ineffective.

    --
    Sturgeon was an optimist.
  22. Re:A Solution to this and the eBay 'sniping' probl by Nate53085 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Please don't call this fuzzy logic. Fuzzy logic is a generalization of traditional logic (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzzy_logic) It is deterministic and NOT inherently random. Sure, you can add randomness to it, but adding randomness does NOT make something fuzzy logic.

    --
    So put that in your pipe and grep it
  23. Re:A Solution to this and the eBay 'sniping' probl by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The solution to the eBay sniping problem is to operate like a real auction, i.e., when the auctioneer gets a new bid as he is counting down to
    close the auction, the closing time gets extended. So, for example, every bid on eBay in the last 5 minutes extends the closing time by 5 minutes. Same rule applies to the new extended closing time. So no one willing to continue bidding ever gets cut off by the clock.

  24. The reasons are actually well known by brian0918 · · Score: 4, Informative

    I've seen this reported on Zero Hedge for months now. The purpose of spamming the market with order quotes is to slow down the competitor's computers, to give you a slight edge in monitoring the market. Basically, you flood the market with order quotes. The competitors' algorithms have to take these into account, while your algorithm can be designed to ignore them. This gives you a slight edge over the competitors in processing actual market data and making determinations.

    1. Re:The reasons are actually well known by hamburger+lady · · Score: 4, Insightful

      problem is, since every other large-scale HFT algorithm does the same thing the benefits are lost. of course, they all have to keep doing it to keep the new equilibrium going.

      why hasn't this whole market fallen apart yet?

      --

      ---
      Is this the MPAA? Is this the RIAA? Is this the DMCA? I thought it was the USA!
    2. Re:The reasons are actually well known by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 2, Interesting

      why hasn't this whole market fallen apart yet?

      Perhaps because, if the total load is too great, they DDoS the machines of the market itself and trading slows to a crawl. Then there's nothing to skim.

      --
      Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
    3. Re:The reasons are actually well known by AkkarAnadyr · · Score: 2
      --

      I bought this house and you know I'm boss
      Ain't no h'aint gonna run me off

    4. Re:The reasons are actually well known by brianerst · · Score: 4, Informative

      It actually doesn't need to be that nefarious (of course, it could be).

      You see a lot of this sort of thing in the derivatives markets (I work in the industry - I was the lead architect of the CBOT's Order Routing System) and it's caused by auto-spreaders. A spread trade in derivatives involves finding a pattern between two or more products and trading the differential in prices (e.g., the March Corn contract and the June corn contract tend to move largely in sync, but the spread between them can grow and shrink, so you combine a buy and a sell when the spread narrows and a sell/buy when it grows again).

      Most of the easier kinds of spreads are handled natively by the exchange trading engines - they imply prices into and out of the underlying contracts and trade the package of contracts as an atomic unit. But someone who wanted to trade non-standard spreads (like those across exchanges, for instance NYMEX energies vs. ICE energies) has to do it differently - you have to create a synthetic spread by watching the prices of the underlying products and "legging in" the different products you want to buy or sell when your price target is reached.

      The easiest and least sophisticated way to do this is to wait until your prices all line up (say you want to buy the NYMEX Oil contract for 10 cents less than you sell the ICE Oil contract for) and then throw in market orders. Then you wait for the spread to move and throw in market orders when you're in the money (you sell the NYMEX Oil contract for 12 cents more than you buy the ICE Oil contract for). Bingo - you make money and you don't really care what either contract was really "worth" - you just care about the differential.

      Problem is - market orders suck. The price can move away from you (screwing your differential) and you end up behind all the limit orders that were in before you (increasing your chances of a price movement). So, the smarter way to do it is to place part of your order into the market as a limit order that tracks against the price of the other market. As that market moves, you cancel/replace the leg or legs that are "in the book" so that you stay in sync with your overall strategy. If your "in the book" order(s) starts to fill, you know you've hit your target and you can drop the final part of your spread into its market, giving you a much better chance of getting your differential.

      Now, imagine that you are doing a pretty complicated spread (four or five different underliers that all relate in some model you have) - depending on which ones you put into book and who else is spreading slightly different contract combinations, you get a lot of weird orders being inserted, canceled and replaced at prices all over the map. It can appear semi-random, but for each algorithm, it actually is highly deterministic.

      I don't know if that's what's going on here, but I wouldn't necessarily rule it out. A number of exchanges (including the CME) are trying to stop this sort of thing, because the transaction volume going into and out of the exchange (and the associated price changes that need to get pushed out) is hugely expensive. So, these days you have to maintain a certain ratio of orders to fills (i.e., don't cancel or replace a lot) or you start to get fined.

  25. Facinating by m.dillon · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It looks to me like the orders are trying to match against dark pool bids/asks, and/or all-or-nothing bids/asks. Another possibility is that they are trying to extract non public information from the trading system by purposefully loading the system down and timing responses.

    High frequency trading bleeds money away from institutional investors (by sussing out dark pool bid/ask levels) and from market makers (by stealing ETF rebates for volume). Also, most brokerages use fairly simple algorithms to handle market orders which can be sussed out by the more sophisticated algorithms used by the HF traders.

    None of this will really effect the retail investor, it amounts to a penny or less on some transactions. Frankly, people have it easy these days where the bid/ask spread is a single penny. When I began trading in my late teens the bid/ask spread was in fractions and was considerably more than a penny. Retail investors get much better pricing these days.

    -Matt

  26. Free Market Checklist by copponex · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You have proposed a solution to introduce more accountability, transparency, or ethical considerations into the free market. Wall Street will not accept your proposal because your solution:

    (x) reduces profits gamed from the current flaws
    (x) introduces accountability
    (x) introduces transparency
    (x) introduces ethical considerations

  27. Re:A Solution to this and the eBay 'sniping' probl by mhajicek · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Interesting idea. IIRC eBay already has an anti-snipe option to delay the close to X minutes past the last bid.

  28. Could it be... by BigSes · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Some sort of automatic low bid type thing? Let's say you see 50 brand new cars on eBay with no reserve and you automatically bid $10 on every single one, knowing you have practically no chance in winnin, but thinking that one might stand. Perhaps its an automatic feed designed to buy shares of say, Walmart, but only if it hits .30 cents a share?

  29. Re:A Solution to this and the eBay 'sniping' probl by Cramer · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Or simply seal all bids until the end, or only allow one bid... Then no one knows what anyone else has bid and you don't get into lame "over spending" bidding wars.

    The problem with sniping is that people rarely have a hard maximum -- and even rarer that they stick to it. Plus, seeing other people bidding on an item spurs others to bid on it. I've seen items not sell repeatedly (relisted 5+ times, at the same price) yet get plenty of traffic; as soon as one person places a $0.99 bid, the bidding war is on. (nobody is interested until someone else is.)

  30. Mod parent up by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 2, Insightful

    That makes a hell of a lot more sense than any of the other explanations that have been posted. "Never attribute to malice what can properly be attributed to incompetence" -- ideas like shadowy international organizations communicating coded messages through stock trades or self-aware machine intelligences a la Skynet forming on the exchanges are certainly entertaining, but they're not needed to explain this phenomenon.

    What is needed, of course, is an explanation of why We The People put up with this crap, when traders and their bots are playing Life not with blobs on a screen, but with our whole economy.

    --
    The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
  31. High Frequency Trading Should Be Banned by careysub · · Score: 5, Insightful

    In the absence of sensible regulation there are many abuses of the "free market" that effectively destroy it and turn it into a rigged game to benefit the already rich and powerful. Monopolies. Cartels. Price fixing. Trading on one's own account ahead of a customer.

    These special access high-speed connections to the stock market exchange are market fixing tools, pure and simple. They allow the trading firms to skim the market for their own profit, thus defrauding every market participant in the world who lacks these powerful and privileged tools.

    Requiring all buys to be held for a "long" time (a minute?, an hour?) would kill a lot of these shenanigans. Also requiring the link to go through a regulated buffer that introduces a random delay of a second or so would also take the wind out of their sales (pun intended). Or maybe we just impose a fee on each transaction so that they aren't free. Sub-millisecond trading loses a lot of luster if you automatically incur a charge equal to 0.1% (or something) of the stock's value.

    --
    Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj
    1. Re:High Frequency Trading Should Be Banned by khallow · · Score: 4, Informative

      In the absence of sensible regulation there are many abuses of the "free market" that effectively destroy it and turn it into a rigged game to benefit the already rich and powerful. Monopolies. Cartels. Price fixing. Trading on one's own account ahead of a customer.

      Or we could do nothing and not fix a non-problem. After all, the market currently is far from "destroyed". "Monopolies, cartels, price fixing, trading on one's account ahead of a customer"? If any of those exist (for example, there aren't any monopolies resulting from high frequency trade), then all you have to do is develop your own high speed market program and profit from the opportunity. Or only trade with brokers that have passed some sort of fairness audit (if you desire fairness over profit).

      These special access high-speed connections to the stock market exchange are market fixing tools, pure and simple. They allow the trading firms to skim the market for their own profit, thus defrauding every market participant in the world who lacks these powerful and privileged tools.

      Once you strip the needlessly negative connotation from the above statement, it reads a bit differently:

      These special access high-speed connections to the stock market exchange are market making tools, pure and simple. They allow the trading firms to provide, for a profit, extremely short term liquidity and price information, thus aiding every market participant in the world who is trying to sell large orders and who lacks these powerful and costly tools.

      Requiring all buys to be held for a "long" time (a minute?, an hour?) would kill a lot of these shenanigans. Also requiring the link to go through a regulated buffer that introduces a random delay of a second or so would also take the wind out of their sales (pun intended). Or maybe we just impose a fee on each transaction so that they aren't free. Sub-millisecond trading loses a lot of luster if you automatically incur a charge equal to 0.1% (or something) of the stock's value.

      Why would we want to kill these "shenanigans"? And why do you think a delay would stop the shenanigans (rather than introduce bizarre oscillations and such into the stock market).

  32. When is the game over? by snowwrestler · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Stocks are a massive game of hot potato. Whoever is holding the stock with the game is over gets burned.

    When is the game over? Do you mean when a company declares bankruptcy? (the game is over for that stock) Or when the market falls? (it goes up and down constantly) Or is the entire stock market going to crash and burn? (end of American society as we know it)

    I agree that the goal of the stock market is not to maintain wealth--if you just want to maintain, you can't beat inflation-protected Treasuries. The stock market is a way to grow wealth, and the winning strategy is not a secret: dollar cost averaging and low-load index funds. It's not a get-rich-quick scheme, but it will grow wealth if given enough time.

    If you're wheeling and dealing individual stocks, yeah, it's more like gambling. But that is only one way to play the stock market.

    --
    Build a man a fire, he's warm for one night. Set him on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.
    1. Re:When is the game over? by blair1q · · Score: 2, Insightful

      the winning strategy is not a secret: dollar cost averaging and low-load index funds

      That strategy gives a moderate return over a certain medium-long term outlook. Provided something large doesn't get involved, like you get in during a marketwide bubble or are forced to cash out in the middle of a marketwide downturn, or both.

      Until the fund manager decides to screw you and a fund you picked for its nice upward drift starts trending down and stays that way for several quarters, wiping out years of "gains".

  33. Re:A Solution to this and the eBay 'sniping' probl by afabbro · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I've never really understood the complaints about eBay sniping. Set your maximum bid at the actual maximum that you want to pay. Whether someone snipes or not, if your bid is the highest you will win. If it's not, you won't.

    You are right in principle, but...let's say I see something now and decide I'll pay $50 max for it. If it sells for $50.01, well damn, I would have paid $50.01. I might not have paid $60, but one cent more?

    It's really hard to find the exact to-the-penny point where your "no, I won't pay that" mode is tripped. Virtually everyone will pay a few cents more than their maximum bid - and hence, snipers flourish and cause angst. It's not a case of paying 20% more - that's obvious - it's a case of paying .001% more. Most people can't focus their "maximum that you want to pay" that finely.

    --
    Advice: on VPS providers
  34. Re:A Solution to this and the eBay 'sniping' probl by vux984 · · Score: 2, Informative

    I've never really understood the complaints about eBay sniping.

    I suggest you spend more time considering the issue.

    Set your maximum bid at the actual maximum that you want to pay. Whether someone snipes or not, if your bid is the highest you will win. If it's not, you won't.

    But this a suboptimal strategy that will result in you paying more for the item than you could otherwise get away with. There is a psychological and competitive aspect to bidding, that induces people to up their bids. By bidding your maximum and then leaving the following will often occur: (Say you bid $100.00)

    Here's typical scenario...
    Another Regular Person X bids against you, $50, and sees that you've outbid them at $51. They think to themselves, $52 ... yeah, what's another $5, and bid again. ooops outbid by you to $56. Again... what's another couple bucks... oops outbid again at $57. They give up and wander away. You win the auction, at $57.

    But if you had sniped, Person X would have bid $50, saw they were top bidder and walked away. You come in and snipe $100 at the last second and you walk away with a winning bid of $51. Not sniping cost you an additional 12%. That basically amounts to a stupid tax on your proposed bidding strategy.

    Meanwhile from the sellers perspective, they hate sniping because they "lose" money. The auctions end before the true 'maximum' bid is allowed to be discovered. That 12% you would have saved by sniping is 12% the seller would have gotten.

    So regular buyers and regular sellers both are irked by sniping, while the only people who benefit are snipers. The entire point of an auction system is to place goods into the hands of the person willing to pay the highest amount. In economic theory an auction is a 'perfect market' where demand and supply meet exactly. Sniping distorts it by enabling auctions to end before the true price is properly set.

    I'd think that the simplest solution would just be to extend the auction slightly every time there is a new high bid. Add 5 or 10 minutes every time the bid increases, and sniping would be totally ineffective.

    I also suggested this to ebay 10 years ago, as a simple fix. Technically, I'd say 5 or 10 minutes isn't enough. In practice the auction should probably be extended an extra day so that all interested parties have time to check and revise their bids. (If an auction ends at 3am, having a window of opportunity to revise my bid until 3:10am isn't really enough. You need enough time for participating parties to receive their email notifications that they've been outbid, and to come back and update if they wish.)

    Some people have argued that this would extend an auction indefinitely, but I disagree. I would however, bump up the bid increments to help prevent auctions from being drawn out. If a Pez dispenser is going to sell for $1.10, dragging it out another day so someone else can bid $1.20 is just stupid.

    Now some sellers value having a fixed closing for auctions for whatever reason and for them... implement a silent auction where all bids are held in secret until the end.

  35. It's simple to fix -- tax each trade by Derling+Whirvish · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The solution is simple -- just tax each trade say one dollar per trade. It's not enough to bother the legitimate trades as all of them are for substantially more than a dollar each, usually thousands of dollars each. This would prohibit using the trading system to make a DOS attack on a competitor. Unless you are prepared to pay the tax.

  36. Simpler: tax transactions by rsborg · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I have a simpler solution to this: tax transactions. Seriously, the London Stock Exchange does it. You don't even have to tax excessively, simply tax each transaction a fixed amount (say $.25) or a very small % (like 0.005%). Why should high frequency trading even be allowed? This tax would also kill automated frontrunning. If churn is the problem, there are ways to slow things down.

    --
    Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
  37. are they encoded signals? by rritterson · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It occurred to me when looking at the charts that the stock market quote system is the perfect way to send encoded transmissions- the sender/offering entity is almost impossible to trace back and the receiver can remain entirely anonymous since almost anyone can look at stock pricing charts. Next, the patterns can be nearly impossible to detect, especially if several sources are linked together to make one transmission system, since the system is filled with lots and lots of what amounts to 'random noise' in the millions of non-encoding quotes/trades out there.

    A sender would also have a significant amount of bandwidth given the number of different ticker symbols, the frequency of quotes, the rate of change between quotes, the direction of quotes, etc.

    Normally, a casual observer wouldn't even notice the signals present at all. In this case, a potentially unrelated event (the flash crash) caused more scrutiny, but, supposing this are encoding signals we're witnessing, we still don't know what they mean or to whom they were sent.

    --
    -Ryan
    AUWYHSTOT (Acronyms are Useless When You Have to Spell Them Out Too)
  38. Re:A Solution to this and the eBay 'sniping' probl by Cajun+Hell · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I don't see why this is a big deal, though. If you bid $50.00 and it sells to someone else for $50.01, all that happened is that you failed to buy something. For you, that's a neutral outcome, not a bad one. The sniper bought the item they wanted and the seller got a fair price. Everyone either won or broke even. No harm happened to anyone. What's the problem?

    --
    "Believe me!" -- Donald Trump
  39. Let it ride... by faulteh · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The market has for the past century been government sanctioned gambling. There has been no real business conducted "on the market", and we all end up having to pay off these problem gamblers. These gambling/market robots are just another part of the game so that "the house always wins". The house are the well known and dodgy investment banks, and of course government eager to take their cut^H^H^Htax.

  40. The problem ... by atomic+brainslide · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ... isn't that the mysterious bidders are "testing" the market to see if anyone is selling or buying at outrageous prices. the problem is that the bids being placed are not placed in good faith -- this is against the law in the USA.

    the crazy, high-frequency bids are placed and then cancelled at high speed. they act as place holders waiting in line for the price to move in their favoured direction. however, since the vast majority of the time the bids are cancelled, they never execute. this results in the mirage of liquidity and the inevitable "Flash Crash" where sellers come in and all the buyers instantly disappear.

    --
    check out my comic: Essential Tremors
  41. Re:It's called freedom to do business by BoberFett · · Score: 3, Interesting

    So if you went to the grocery store and as you were about to check out, some guy jumped between you and the register and emptied your cart without you or the cashier asking them to do that, you'd pay him for it?

    That's what these HFTs do.

  42. Isn't it Obvious? by angst_ridden_hipster · · Score: 2, Funny

    What's the matter with you people? Back in the day, Slashdotters would have figured this out immediately.

    It's the *terrorists* using the bid data as an out-of-band *communication protocol* for transmitting *encrypted messages*! Remember? Like they were doing with steganography in eBay auction photos? The brilliance is they are using our own tools against us!

    Bear with me a moment, pour yourself a large frosty mug o' xenophobia, and think about all those *overseas programmers* in the financial industry. Why, if we don't stop them, they'll probably code up some *derivative bots* that will f-up the mortgage industry!

    --
    Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachtani?
    www.fogbound.net
  43. finally adjudicated? by HornWumpus · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Finally adjudicated? As in bankruptcy?

    WTF are you babbling on about?

    The * is worth whatever someone will pay for it.

    That's right blair1q Enron really was worth all that money way back when (even though it was all fraud).

    The money made was green and spent just the same (as long as you were not part of the fraud).

    Stocks must be liquid for markets to work at all efficiently.

    It's much harder to raise capital for a private corporation vs a public one.

    There are several reasons for this but stock liquidity is definitely a feature for all investors (including but not limited to those that get in on IPOs).

    It should be noted that most holders of IPO stock were previously holders of private stock (Founders, Angels, Vulture Capitalists etc), not Wall street insiders.

    It should also be noted that IPO are 'Initial Public Offerings' not 'Only Public Offerings', companies raise capital with new stock offerings all the time.

    I will agree with you that speculators are just gamblers who lower the signal to noise ratio in prices.

    I'd tax any market gains from positions held less then a year the same a gambling winnings.

    --
    John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    1. Re:finally adjudicated? by RingDev · · Score: 3, Informative

      Stocks must be liquid for markets to work at all efficiently.

      Liquidity is a result of an efficient market. Liquidity is not a driver of efficiency.

      -Rick

      --
      "Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
    2. Re:finally adjudicated? by shiftless · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You missed the point of what he was saying. His point was private shares are not liquid as public shares are.

  44. if this is a form of spam ... by JoeBuck · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ... that is, if people are doing this kind of thing to gum up the works for their competition, one answer is to assess a very small fee per trade, less than a penny. This would be completely negligible to a normal investor, but could be quite expensive to those trying to saturate the system for the benefit of their trading algorithm. Market-makers like Goldman Sachs would also wind up paying significant amounts, but given their privileged position which basically gives them a license to print money it's only fair. The fees collected could go into an insurance fund to help cover the next financial meltdown, and if it slows down trading a bit, that may well be a good thing. Complex nonlinear systems have a tendency to go unstable, and damping is one way of decreasing this possibility.

  45. Re:A Solution to this and the eBay 'sniping' probl by moogaloonie · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If I cut in front of you in line and buy the last of an item you intended to purchase, I am only causing you a neutral outcome. But it is still rude. Notice that people care somewhat less when they are sniped by a bidder who did at one time themselves have a winning bid, than when sniped by a bidder who showed no interest before the closing moments. This is because we use the number of bids and distinct bidders to gauge interest in an item when determining our own max bids. It's not logical (mostly because of sniping) but if I see bidding has slowed on an item with numerous bidders unwilling to go markedly higher than the current amount I can assume that the final price will be within that same ballpark. When there are fewer bidders taking turns having the highest bid, it is likely that one will wait until the very end to actually input their highest bid, which will generally be significantly more than their previous highest bid.

  46. Intent by zogger · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The intent is to game the system by creating bogus artificial demand-or lack of demand-in large enough quantities to influence trades below. Therefore,because they can do it at such a huge volume, and they know in advance what they are doing, they can use the split they have created to leverage that into a sort of arbitrage all day long. I am *guessing* right now they have to use a partner trader/bot to do the actual "real" trades following the bot shilling. Like secret partners in a poker game.

    My opinion, crooked leeches, parasites, this sort of trading should be outright banned. I'd also like to see sales tax put on trades, we simply don't need this high speed trading at all, and that would be the simplest solution to this whole mess.

    Would it reduce churn and volatility? Yes it would, not eliminate it, but slow it down enough to make it so actual human beings had to stop and think on what they want to do, and it would force a return to investing in a company, rather than this casino action we have now.

    also see this, it's just a high tech variation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Front_running

    1. Re:Intent by tsm_sf · · Score: 3, Informative

      What's interesting to me is that we've been seeing very similar behavior in MMOs that offer robust auction systems, especially within the past few months.

      --
      Literalism isn't a form of humor, it's you being irritating.
    2. Re:Intent by Spazztastic · · Score: 3, Interesting

      What's interesting to me is that we've been seeing very similar behavior in MMOs that offer robust auction systems, especially within the past few months.

      Except that is enforced. Manipulate the in game economy too much and you'll get banned, at least in WoW you will.

      --
      Posts not to be taken literally. Almost everything is sarcasm.
  47. Re:A Solution to this and the eBay 'sniping' probl by Laser+Dan · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I've never really understood the complaints about eBay sniping. Set your maximum bid at the actual maximum that you want to pay. Whether someone snipes or not, if your bid is the highest you will win. If it's not, you won't.

    You are right in principle, but...let's say I see something now and decide I'll pay $50 max for it. If it sells for $50.01, well damn, I would have paid $50.01. I might not have paid $60, but one cent more?

    It's really hard to find the exact to-the-penny point where your "no, I won't pay that" mode is tripped. Virtually everyone will pay a few cents more than their maximum bid - and hence, snipers flourish and cause angst. It's not a case of paying 20% more - that's obvious - it's a case of paying .001% more. Most people can't focus their "maximum that you want to pay" that finely.

    Whenever I bid on ebay, I choose my maximum bid, then add a couple of dollars and a random amount of cents to avoid this. Eg if I would pay about $50, I put a bid for say $53.72. Most people bid whole numbers or the next minimum increment above, so by adding a small "snipe margin" you avoid being irritated. If the final price is higher than this, well the price is higher than you wanted to pay anyway so no problem.

  48. Re:A Solution to this and the eBay 'sniping' probl by kent_eh · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It's only a problem if the item is generally unavailable, and you not having it is standing in the way of an important goal.

    Example: you are bidding on a replacement part for an expensive (and no longer supported) piece of machinery which you use to earn a living.

    --

    ---
    "I can't complain, but sometimes still do..." Joe Walsh
  49. VOHFT (Voice Over High Frequency Trading) by craighansen · · Score: 2, Interesting

    These HFT trades are communicating something. We don't know what. It could be collusion among HFT traders. It could be communicating insider trading information. There's enough information in the signals that it could be VO-HFT, which makes sense, knowing that traders have their phone, email and IM communication recorded to assure the SEC that there's nothing illegal going on. The SEC needs to make this HFT sideband stop ASAP. LSMFT.

  50. Economy 2.0 by qeveren · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This is starting to remind me of Charles Stross' Accelerando, and that worries me. XD

    --
    Don't just stand there, get that other dog!
  51. Re:A Solution to this and the eBay 'sniping' probl by PybusJ · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Sure, there is a somewhat fuzzy edge between what you consider a fair price and the price at which you're not interested. Also, humans are not particularly rational beings. Combine the two and auctions can easily lead to someone paying over the odds.

    You decided that $50 was your top price, but see that someone has bid $50.01. That's not worth losing over; you bid $50.05 (or whatever eBays minimum increment is); your competitor ups hers. This keeps on going for a few rounds (after all if it's worth $50 it's probably worth 20-30c more). But by now you've become emotionally involved: you've invested effort in making these bids, if you back down you'll have the negative feeling of having lost, rather than the neutral feeling of some item costing more than you wanted to pay. Before you started out you might have thought it was worth $50 but not $52. With little time to respond, and in the competitive auction environment, you don't make the same judgements and keep bidding one of you finally wins at $61. It then turns out you could have bought the item from another fixed priced seller for $55.

    You see this a lot on eBay; it's good for the seller, but not for buyers. So much more rational to take advantage of eBay's Vickrey auction style proxy bidding. Bid your maximum and if you win you only pay for one increment above the 2nd choice person. Don't choose a round number, if the item is worth about $50 but not $52, pick a random number somewhere in between, say $50.73. If you win, great, if not you don't feel too bad about it -- it's not like the 50 vs 50.01, you've already given yourself a little margin.

    In theory this is a good strategy but it doesn't take account of the pool of irrational eBayers, and the outright cheats. If you leave your best bid up a long while before the end, a couple of bad things might happen:

        1) shill bidders (the seller, or someone in league with them using another account) may come and bid up the auction so you pay more than you otherwise would. They may even bid past your limit thus finding out your maximum, then cancel the bid and bid to just below your maximum. EBay don't allow it, but it happens where they don't spot it.

        2) Someone may come and think it's worth $45, bid that and see it doesn't win. Reason as you did, and bid a little more, then a little more again. Now they're the one's getting emotionally involved and keep bidding thinking "just one more and I might be in the lead", eventually bidding themselves up past you even if they wouldn't have considered the item worth it.

    Best to avoid this entirely, bid what you think's a fair price close to the end of auction. If others have done the same, and bid their maximum (you know, just like eBay suggest in to) then they won't be unhappy.

    Hence snipping. Perfectly rational, and only a disadvantage to buyers who, for some reason, like to bid up incrementally instead of using the eBay proxy bid system.

    I really can't see why buyers complain so much about it. Of course it's not in seller's interest, they benefit when people get carried away bidding.