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The 'Net Generation' Isn't
Kanel introduces this lengthy review in Spiegel Online this way: "Kids that grew up with the Internet are not 'digital natives' as consultants have led us to believe. They're OK with the Net but they don't care much about Web 2.0 and find plenty of other things more important than the Internet. Consultants and authors, mostly old guys, have called for the education system to be reworked to suit this new generation, but they never conducted surveys to see if the members of 'generation @' were anything like what they had envisioned. Turns out, children who have known the Net their whole lives are not particularly skilled at it, nor do they live their lives online." "Young people have now reached this turning point. The Internet is no longer something they are willing to waste time thinking about. It seems that the excitement about cyberspace was a phenomenon peculiar to their predecessors, the technology-obsessed first generation of Web users. ...they certainly no longer understand it when older generations speak of 'going online.' ... Tom and his friends just describe themselves as being 'on' or 'off,' using the English terms. What they mean is: contactable or not."
There were no Techy generations. There were Techy people, be they blacksmiths or chip designers.
Techy people of different generations did their thing, but most people are spectators who don't WANT to know how things work.
They always will be, and for geeks, this is good.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
If you're asking why the latest generation wasn't fooled by "web 2.0" privacy watergate, it's a foregone conclusion that people BELIEVE the socializing lies that define our politics, if not our very souls.
FTA: "Many of them don't even know how to google properly."
"Generation @" would be watching teevee or listening to the radio if they didn't have a computer. They go where their friends go, use what their friends use. They are nothing more than cattle, going along with the herd.
And not the whole world or America.
I'm a native of both and the article rings somewhat true of the people I know. But to be blunt about it, I think there is more to do in Germany, especially in this age range. More clubs, more affordable entertainment options, more and cheaper excercise options. More mass transit too, to get there.
I grew up as a latchkey kid in suburban borderline rural America and summered there. When I was 10-15, I was bored out of my mind most days and would have loved something like the internet. I was just too far from anything entertaining, including other kid's houses. It all comes down to having a car culture, imo.
One example, I find pools very expensive in America. Even my YMCA isn't cheap and is like 7 miles away. In Germany, a schwimmbad, hallenbad, etc are somewhat ubiquitous and cheap (5 euros entrance). The outdoor baths are particularly nice, having several pools, one usually Olympic size. None of this means anything if you can't get to it, but again, Germany has massive transit especially rail, and bus, and it doesn't take hours to get anywhere like the bus systems I know from Seattle or Philadelphia. Also, there are sidewalks and bikepaths everywhere, on the side of the road. Here, I had 3 friends that got hit over the years because it's mostly patchwork, if it exists at all.
There can be other factors and I'm sure urban kids have a different experience.
Today's kids have grown up with the net. It is so in-graved into today's society for most that most kids don't even think about it. The net is nothing special now like it was years ago. I remember years ago when the net first came around to everyone. It was something special and new then. I used to spend hours just looking around and finding new and different things. Now I mainly go to the few websites I like. It went from a new fascinating thing to simply a tool to get the job done. The magic is gone from the net now that it is everywhere and used by almost everyone. Just comes with the times.
I'm 19. I care about the 'net and social networking and the effect it has on the evolution of culture and social intelligence. I think what this study means to conclude is that the 'net has become integrated so much into our lives that it has lost that 'new car' feel. That doesn't make it any less important.
First adopters are always the biggest geeks. The internet, however, is less about its applications today than it is about content. When I started college, the World Wide Web was just emerging, and one had to have some technical aptitudes to know what to do with a PPP dialer, Eudora or, even more primitive, PINE mail, Gopher, Telnet, etc. The first major graphical browser, NCSA Mosaic, had just come out. But the net is so ubiquitous and content driven that users aren't talking about the net in terms of its technology... they're talking about it in terms of content: movies, music, images, news, friends, games, etc.
A technology becomes most useful is when the tech itself is at its most transparent, and the user is directly interfacing with their content with no tremendous awareness of the underlying layers (e.g. OSI model)... and that is precisely how it ought to be, be it for casual or business usage.
And what's your evidence? Of course, we can probably only offer up our own anecdotes, so I'll offer mine up too.
CBC Radio was talking about this earlier in the day. Young people seem to be viewing computers and the internet as tools they wield for doing whatever it is they want to do, be it contacting friends, maintaining social networks, communicating with other services, doing homework, etc. Many of them don't have the same curiousity or interest that many of us (the /. and other techy crowds) have towards these tools. A guest on the show lamented this, saying that we've lost the ability to "tinker" with our tools (*cough*), and that tinkering is an essential life skill.
I don't really agree with that guest. Many of us use tools to accomplish our goals without trying to tinker with them. I drive a car regularly and have no interest in knowing the ins and outs of its mechanics. Similarly with vacuum cleaners, washers and dryers, mechanical pencils, radios, and many other tools you may come across in your daily life. If it works, and helps me do what I want to do, that's all I care about. It's the same attitude that this younger generation (many of those in my university specifically) takes towards computers and the internet.
I think that is the real measure of how integrated something is in our lives. We don't really have to think twice about the tools we use in order to live our lives on a daily basis. They're just there, and we can use them when we need them, and we don't have to know everything about them.
But that doesn't mean that they're stupid. They know "the internet" is a sort of virtual space where services reside. Whatever hand-waving or magic or technological means are involved to deliver those services to them do not matter to them, so long as it works. And that's a perfectly fine attitude to take, imho. We all take that attitude to at least some degree towards at least some of the tools we use on a daily basis. This just boils down to people having different interests in different things. But to try to insinuate that young people are stupid (and unable to differentiate between the internet and Facebook, for example) just because they take that sort of attitude towards something that you or I are interested in is just bigotry. The inner workings of "the internet" are as foreign to them as the techniques and history of knife forging are to me. That's all there is to it.
I have to disagree. That might have been true for the 'AOL' generation, because everything was presented in a nice cosmetic package. The newest generation most certainly does not exist in the 'Facebook Bubble'. They are in blogs, in chat rooms, porn sites, fan sites, AmericanIdol.com, etc.
Although the old social bubbles might have served as the 'internet' in it's infancy, there is no way that would or could happen now. Although they may not 'go online' in this day and age, they most certainly wouldn't be satisfied by only a single service. They may not know the technical details but they know where to go to find things that interest them. The internet is an endless supply of 'apps' to borrow the iTunes phrase. There will always be new, endless curiosities to be seen, heard, and experienced, be that for 5 minutes, or 5 years, and no single 'site' can provide all of that.
They look at the internet as just another appliance.
Still it does seem their lives revolve around the net, with webcam chatting, youtube creations, live chats, and texting. Just like I always have my TV or Radio turned on, even it's just for noise. It's ever-present.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
Next you'll tell me that MTV generation didn't understand how a CRT worked and merely accepted the 60 hz spray of electrons into their eyeballs thoughtlessly.
Or that the telephone generation of the 50s didn't spend long hours thinking about the automation of connections.
Wow, I either have a distorted view of what "digital native" means or you do.
The US is full of car natives. When you wanna go to the mall to hang out with your friends you don't go saddle the horse.
This younger generation is full of Internet natives. When you wanna talk to your friends you don't reach for the telephone or pull out the quill and ink pot, you jump online.
FFS, what are you people talking about, you're on a god damn Internet forum.
How we know is more important than what we know.
I'll say the same thing. I grant that its anecdotal and thus does not apply to the whole group. But I live next door to two teen girls, and that pretty much hits the nail on the head. They don't look at the net like we do. They're not in to hacking. They don't care how elegant (or crufty) something may be. "Cool" has nothing to do with it. They just want to keep contact with their friends, and they want it to work.
I want a new quote. One that won't spill. One that don't cost too much. Or come in a pill.
Internet has disappeared into the walls like indoor plumbing and electricity. After much novelty, it becomes ubiquitous, for these kids it's just there and always has been.
The neophillia is experienced by the generation that bridge the period between when you had to walk to get water, and the period when you didn't, when you lit a candle and when you flicked a switch.
I understand the importance of a global digital network because I remember in my childhood there wasn't one, in my teenage years it was developing, and now I have a career in it. I've bridged the period of and no new generation will experience the same thing.
What changes will my children face.
After logging in slashdot still does not take you back to the page you were on. It's been that way for 20 years.
I drive a car regularly and have no interest in knowing the ins and outs of its mechanics.
Not trying to troll, but that line really struck me. Do you by any chance happen to drive a Toyota? Your comment definitely makes you come across as the "A car is no different than a toaster, so buy the cheapest one that won't break and who cares what it looks like or what features it has" type.
Ever wonder that maybe the reason there are so many crappy drivers out there is because they don't care to know anything about the car and expect it to be a magic box that "just works"?
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
Just because someone isn't interested in the same things that you are doesn't mean that they're not curious. Maybe they're interested in understanding people, maybe they're interested in how to run a business, maybe they just want to know everything about training dogs. Civilization takes all kinds of people, and fortunately different people seems to be attracted to different things.
One time I threw a brick at a duck.
Because the article supports the opposite.
If you were responding to the parent, I didn't really get that he was all that far off from the article. It seems to suggest that the generation growing up with the internet treats it like my generation treated the telephone. Just a part of everyday life that's always been there and they're just not all that fascinated by it. It's a tool, nothing more.
That may not be intuitive, but it's not surprising either.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
They may have grown up with internet existing.... but their parents won't let them touch the computer. Let alone use it as a toy.
On average, they know just enough about the net to know it's dangerous for kids.
Sorry.. the 'net' generation is something that will start 20 years from now, not anytime soon.
Facebook users: 0.5 billion
Email users: 1.5 billion
Mobile phone users: 4.5 billion
Facebook has a long way to go if it is going to become the number one way of communicating.
People may spend more time on Facebook/Youtube/Twitter/etc than they do writing emails, SMS:es and making phone calls, but that's because those sites are more casual.
[......] I honestly do not know a single person in meatspace like the folks in the article and somehwat you who have no apparent interest in any technology that we all use, other than having someone else do it so you can use it.
That's probably just the sort of people you know, then. In my experience, the majority of people aren't interested in how stuff works - they just want it to work.
You won't find anybody cool on Facebook, from any generation.
You won't find anyone cool anywhere - because "cool" is a delusion. Everyone's cool or not cool to someone.
For years I watched younger family members grow up from wee lads and thought to myself, oh boy, next generation, they're going to make me look like a Luddite. Yet the outcome I had feared - finding myself suddenly behind the curve, no longer able to catch up with technology, maybe even "average"... deep down, I think would have preferred that. Having 20 year olds ask me for computer help makes me sad. It makes me want to say, you kids were supposed to charge ahead. But I don't see you charging anywhere. You don't even vote.
Ya, but WHAT? In the fine article the kid outlined said he was really into basketball, and that was it. whoopedy zing, that's it??? for real? So I repeat, what do they DO? Just entertainments, media consumption, play sports? Anything serious? Just saying that "they don't do what you like to do" isn't answering the question, it is just further dodging it.
And really, to repeat, I am not trying to "get off my lawn" dump on anyone or any generation, it is just fascinating in an odd way to me to think there are humans out there who have no interest at all in how things around them work, that using actual tools is just never even considered, that that is for someone else, this vague someone else to do.
I am *seriously* reminded of that somewhat famous heinlein quote about specialization and insects. And what makes it worse, is that even the specialization is apparently being ignored now, appears they want to "do" anything else but work/build/create/explore. Just some sort of existence with no real purpose, no drive or something, anyone but them needs to "do that" so they can...what?? Just live, contribute nothing back, expect to go their entire lives like that??
I don't know, that's why I am asking. And that is what I was wondering, I just can't believe it, so I want to know what really takes the place of being a tool using tinkering human today, especially in this demographic in the article.
``Hell, I've talked to professional computer people in their earlier 20s, say 20-22, who think that 'kermit' is just a Muppet. That's truly sad.''
I dunno. It seems to me that in the grand scheme of things Kermit the Frog is far more influential and important than the protocol which was named after him
I drive a Honda, but that might be besides the point.
You bring up a fantastic point. There are different features in different cars. Some of them have more or less horsepower, some of them have more or less torque at certain RPM bands, whatever. I don't know much about cars, like I said. But none of that really matters to me. What does matter to me is my experience with the car. When I drive my car, I have certain interactions with it that occur on a regular basis. Feeling the comfort of the seat, the feel and weight of the steering wheel, the sound of the engine, the appearance, etc. Then there are things that don't happen, like accelerator recalls, frequent breakdowns, etc. Those are the things that I'm interested in w.r.t. cars. As long as my car performs as intended and I have a good experience driving it, that's all that matters to me. All the numbers don't matter. I don't need to care whether or not it has more or less horsepower than another model, or whether it has a v4 or v6 engine, or whatever, as long as it performs as expected under the normal range of driving conditions.
This is exactly the same as how many people view computers. They don't need to know whether you have a Core i5 750 or a Phenom II x6 1055T. Those words and numbers mean nothing to them. As long as the computer performs as expected under normal conditions and they have a good experience with it, that's all that matters. This is why Apple computers sell. People don't care about the specs, they don't need to care about the specs. Sure, you pay a price premium for Apple. But what do you get in return? A really easy to use OS that requires little if any configuration. A good enough tech support that will help you fix your problem (with whatever voodoo magic, for all they care) and that is easily reachable and has a human face. You or I may debate the merits of getting a Phenom II x6 or a Core i5, or whether to stick with an AM2+ motherboard or upgrade to AM3, depending on whatever purposes we have. But most people just want a machine for general use purposes, and none of those specs make a huge difference. As long as you're buying current gen hardware (or even hardware from one or two gens previous), it's good enough for most people.
The take-home is that for many of our tools, it doesn't matter how exactly it works, as long as it works and we have a good experience using those tools. You might be interested in those tools, and others might not be.
As for the crappy drivers, I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to get at. There's almost no expectation that you need to know how a car works in order to get a driver's license in most places that I know of. You need to have basic knowledge of how to drive a car, basic driving techniques, the rules of the road, etc. If you think that the problem lies in people not knowing how cars work, then you might want to take that up with your local politicians. It seems to me, however, that crappy drivers are crappy drivers not because they don't know the mechanics of their car, but because they don't give a shit about the rules of the road and have no common courtesy.
Their attitude is no different than some teen girls (or guys) from 20 or 30 years ago. There are just more people using computers now so it's more noticeable.
Exactly, we have a bias for our times. How many teen girls knew how to fix a TV in the 50s? But they all used it.
Seriously, you are 26 and already being crotchety? I'm 30 and I think you are exhibiting "Cranky old person syndrome" in a bad way.
You are bitching because people don't know about some old, somewhat obscure, modem protocol? What the fuck? Why would they? Hell even many people who used modems didn't know about it because they didn't use it with the systems they were on (XMODEM and ZMODEM were way more popular in my experience).
As a counterpoint, do you know all about the telegraph, how it came to be, the development, the refinements, the way it changed the world? Can you tell me about the different kinds of keys and what they are good at? What can you tell me about the life of the man who invented it? Can you even tell me his name (without looking it up)?
There are actually questions I CAN answer... Because I did extensive academic research on Morse. It is an extremely important part of our communications history and shaped many other developments (for example it was the very start of the move to electronic funds, with the ability to 'wire' money). However I do not expect random people to know about it. There is no reason to. It is now a historical relic, Morse Code practiced by very few people any more and no longer required even for amateur radio licenses. It is an important part of our history, but not something I expect everyone to learn about.
That is just one example, I could pick many more. Don't get grumpy because the things that were new to you are old to others. That's called progress and it is a wonderful thing.
Now get off my lawn. :D
If you'd asked my friends and I if we thought computers were a major force in our lives we would have said no, and we'd have been WRONG. Kids simply do not have the level of perspective required to determine whether something is intrinsic to their lives, and they certainly don't have the level of perspective to describe how we should be retooling our society. That's why Facebook can become a billion dollar company in the first goddamn place - because some savvy motherfucker with actual life experience knows how to inject this stuff into the lives of people without the filters required to avoid being seduced by technology. Also see: Extremely old people, people from extremely rural areas.
I worked for one of the biggest IT firms in the country (hint: not Apple, not Google, not Hardware). I was chatting to another "older" system engineer about how people at work would choose certain devices to work/play with.
The "younger" groups of people would ask for Macs on their workstations, but only for various things like surfing the Internet (we programmed on the PC). They would buy phones like Apple that had no real programing ability. They would use software that more or less was pre-set and required little in the way of knowledge on how it worked and minimal setup and customization time.
The "older" folks always used devices they could "take apart". Programmable phones, PCs, etc. They would request software that required a higher level of learning and/or time to setup and customize.
I have always believed this was one of the keys to success for companies like Facebook, Twitter, and Apple. They are simple and just function without a lot of fuss or glitter. Simply put, younger people tend to view the technology today like any other technology that has been around for a while. I am sure that the first time people got electricity run to their homes they would spend endless hours turning lights on and off and inviting friends over to see the new wonders. Now we just get pissed when a lightbulb blows out and expect it to work when we need it.
I could be wrong on all this, but just something I observed over my programming career. Oh, and in 25 years of programming on the PC I still do not know any personal friends who actually "program" on an Apple computer or write apps for it. But I do have several friends who own one.
That's silly. Aside from the most general encyclopedia description of how an engine works, I really don't know much about mechanics. I certainly couldn't change a timing belt, or chain, or whatever my car has. What I do know is how it normally sounds and feels, and I know the periodic service schedule. So I take it in when the schedule says to, and I take it in if something goes wonky. That's a totally valid approach. Some people are really interested in cars, which is great, because they can become auto mechanics, and charge me to service my car when it needs it. Some people view cars as little more than transportation devices, which is great, because that frees up their time to become good at something else, for example, setting up and installing POS systems and getting paid for it, perhaps even by the mechanic who services the POS expert's car. To be really good at somethings takes years of practice. Fact is, one person cannot be good at all things. And people who think they are good at everything, tend to be walking disaster areas.
What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
This is why I sometime am ashamed to be part of my generation. Nobody seems to want to know how things work or even troubleshoot their own problems with a search engine. At least it will give me a chance to charge my friends for computer help :P.
Repeat after me: Email is NOT a file transfer protocol.
Why go to Facebook, and use a tortured "message" system, which THEN sends an alert email to the receiver, as well as the actual message arriving on their Facebook account!?!
It's nice for shorter messages with people you don't talk to as often and you're not sure if they've changed email addresses.
Facebook makes a lot more sense if you use it as a networking tool instead of a communications service.
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
I propose the opposite. I propose you do not need to know anything about what happens under the hood to be a good driver. And by good driver, I mean someone who is safe, fully compliant with all applicable laws and regulations and who can navigate around other objects (which is complying with the laws of physics). A good driver does need to know the laws of physics, the rules of the road, and which knobs, buttons, dials and levers do what within the cockpit of their car.
I have a mechanic; I pay him to take care of everything (yes, everything) under the hood. I am a man, and comfortable in my manhood, even without changing my own oil, cleaning the stuck windshield squirter nozzle, or fixing the switch that keeps my dome light on during cold or rainy weather (I pull out the bulb instead).
The race car driver example is irrelevant; your local freeways and city streets are not supposed to be competitions of speed and dexterity but venues for transportation; you are graded on courtesy, not pole position. And if everyone will keep their eyes on the road and off their cell phones/iWhatnots, use their turn signals, and observe appropriate distance from the vehicle in front of them, I would call them all good drivers.
More recently, the early adopters for mobile phones seemed much more interested in how they worked and in what hacks and workarounds they could employ, now most people just take the devices for granted - they use them all the time and they're an essential part of life, but they don't particular care about the inner workings. It's likely more to do with the fact that early adopters are generally more techy people who do have a deeper interest in how things work, then those things reach a tipping point where they're cheap, easy and convenient enough for the masses and the noise from the average user drowns out the techy user. It doesn't mean there aren't just as many techy people in this new generation getting involved in the inner workings, they're just a hell of a lot harder to spot in the wild.
You're assuming he's doing nothing when he could be learning how to maintain his car. What if he's a naturally talented developer - it would be a better use of his time learning more about programming than learning how to service his engine, and the financial returns he'd gain from the additional skills and experience would likely more than make up the difference. Do you think a mechanic writes his own engine testing software routines to save money? If fiscal efficiency is your aim then, unless you work in a particularly low paid sector, I'd say specialisation is always going to reap you greater rewards - learn how to maintain a car then spend ten years working on it to save $2k, or learn how to write web applications and make the $2k in a lazy weekend to pay someone else to do the ten years of maintenance?
Moreover the mechanic is doing his actual job, he'll have insurance and the right training and equipment to make sure he doesn't miss anything vital or, if he does and you suffer loss, you'll be covered. I'm not sure I'd trust my ability as an enthusiastic amateur when we're talking about a metal box travelling at 70MPH containing me and my family, and in the same way the mechanic might build an amateur website in dreamweaver, but if he ever wanted a full e-commerce solution with online payment processing linked to a stock database and delivery and invoicing system I'd hope he would go to a proper developer.
On the other hand, if you're talking about enjoyment rather than money, I would agree. For me, doing something I enjoy in my spare time is worth more than saving a few pennies, and I know for some people that means stripping and rebuilding engines, but for a lot of people it definitely doesn't.
Repeat after me: There is no file transfer protocol between internet users.
The internet is capable of high performance, yet we don't have a common, stable mean of transferring large (100MB) files client-to-client. [No, torrent is not one.]
NB: The message above might reflect my opinion right now, but not necessarily tomorrow or next year.