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ISP Owner Who Fought FBI Spying Freed From Gag Order

Tootech writes "So you wonder what happens when an ISP recieves a a so-called 'national security letter' from the FBI? Well, read this about an ISP owner's fight to not have to turn over everything and the sink to the FBI: 'The owner of an internet service provider who mounted a high-profile court challenge to a secret FBI records demand has finally been partially released from a 6-year-old gag order that forced him to keep his role in the case a secret from even his closest friends and family. He can now identify himself and discuss the case, although he still can't reveal what information the FBI sought. Nicholas Merrill, 37, was president of New York-based Calyx Internet Access when he received a so-called "national security letter" from the FBI in February 2004 demanding records of one of his customers and filed a lawsuit to challenge it.'"

91 of 404 comments (clear)

  1. Troubling by mcgrew · · Score: 5, Informative

    Despite the fact that the FBI later dropped its demand for the records, Merrill was prohibited from telling his fiancée, friends or family members that he had received the letter or that he was embroiled in a lawsuit challenging its legitimacy. He occasionally showed up for court hearings about the case, but sat silently in the audience with other court observers. In 2007, he was prevented from publicly accepting an award for his courage from the American Civil Liberties Union, because he was not allowed to identify himself as the plaintiff in the case.

    So much for the first amendment. I'd have posted it all to slashdot, written letters to editors, harrassed my congresscritters, and gone to jail.

    Free country, my ass. You no longer have freedom of speech.

    1. Re:Troubling by Shakrai · · Score: 5, Insightful

      So much for the first amendment. I'd have posted it all to slashdot, written letters to editors, harrassed my congresscritters, and gone to jail.

      Or you could be a little bit smarter about it and send it to a news outlet and/or wikileaks.....

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    2. Re:Troubling by spun · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Freedom of speech has always taken a backseat to the notion of national security, even when it is a false notion. This isn't new, but the amount of security we are told we need seems to have increased dramatically.

      "Liberty, Security, Empire: pick any two," we used to have liberty and security, now we have security and empire, but our empire sure doesn't seem to be doing anything for the average citizen.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    3. Re:Troubling by Hatta · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What good is it to be able to say "fuck the government" if you can't say "fuck these agents, from this branch of the government, for this specific action"?

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    4. Re:Troubling by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Which would have gotten you sent to jail? He basically said what you said, telling it on slashdot and writing letters to editors is kind of like sending it to a news outlet.

      Wikileaks couldn't really have helped because as soon as they provide any information his anonymity is gone because the FBI will have known it was he who leaked the info.

    5. Re:Troubling by Shakrai · · Score: 5, Interesting

      We don't have an "empire" and free speech has always been something that can be curtailed for an ongoing criminal investigation. National Security really doesn't have anything to do with it. When I was in the ISP business I learned that it's illegal in New York State to tell one of your customers that he's the subject of a electronic surveillance warrant. Are you going to claim that's an infringement on free speech?

      This law isn't troubling because the ISP owner can't tell the public about the NSL. It's troubling because he can't even tell his own lawyer. If the law is found to be unconstitutional that will be the reason why.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    6. Re:Troubling by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 3, Informative

      And yes, those acts were repealed, but it just goes to show that the 1st Amendment has taken a backseat to government interest since pretty much the beginning.

    7. Re:Troubling by schon · · Score: 5, Insightful

      They might suspect that but proving it in a Court of Law is an entirely different matter.

      And as we all know, if it's impossible to prove in court, they won't ever arrest you and destroy your business.

      Oh, wait...

    8. Re:Troubling by spun · · Score: 5, Informative

      Yes, we do have an Empire. We have colonies and military bases all over the world. We have intervened in dozens of country's internal politics. We have waged wars of aggression and toppled democratically elected leaders like Salvador Allende.

      A good place to start is the wiki article on American Imperialism, which is obviously horribly slanted if you think no such article should exist because no such thing exists, but you will find a lot of people all over the world strongly believe that not only does American imperialism exist, it has killed someone they know. Even if you don't think any such thing exists, it might be enlightening to you to research just what it is that all these people are calling 'American Imperialism."

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    9. Re:Troubling by mcgrew · · Score: 5, Interesting

      free speech has always been something that can be curtailed for an ongoing criminal investigation.

      Yes, but there was always judicial oversight -- if a law enforcement agency wanted your records, they had to go to a judge and have a warrant issued. These letters need no warrant, despite the fact that the Constitution says "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

      TFA is, as I said, quite troubling. The fourth amendment has lost all meaning, as well as the first, which reads "Congress shall make no law... abridging the freedom of speech".

      When I was in the ISP business I learned that it's illegal in New York State to tell one of your customers that he's the subject of a electronic surveillance warrant. Are you going to claim that's an infringement on free speech?

      No, because that looks like a judge has to issue a warrant. No judge's warrant is required for the FBI. From TFA:With an NSL, the FBI does not need to seek a court order to obtain such records, nor does it need to prove just cause. An FBI field agent simply needs to draft an NSL stating the information being sought is "relevant" to a national security investigation...

      The gag orders raise the possibility for extensive abuse of NSLs, under the cover of secrecy. Indeed, in 2007, a Justice Department Inspector General audit found that the FBI, which issued almost 200,000 NSLs between 2003 and 2006, had abused its authority and misused NSLs.

    10. Re:Troubling by Monchanger · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't see an exception for criminal investigations in the First Amendment.

      That's because you don't understand the law. Read any court case about the limitation of freedom of speech and you'll see where that comes from.

      Neither do you have unrestricted access to 'arms' as the NRA narrowly thinks the Second states.

    11. Re:Troubling by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Personally, I haven't really believed there is freedom of speech in the United States ever since I heard about free speech zones.

      I first heard about free speech zones in an article about how protesters against G.W. Bush were directed to free speech zones that were far enough away from where Bush would be passing that he, his supporters, and other onlookers would not be able to hear them. Apparently, free speech zones predate G.W. Bush's government, though.

      I'm not sure how useful free speech is if you can only exercise it where nobody who doesn't already agree with you will hear it.

      --
      Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
    12. Re:Troubling by spun · · Score: 2, Informative

      Despite what you may have learned in junior high, "Put the bong down and step away slowly," is not a cogent counter argument.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    13. Re: Troubling by spun · · Score: 3, Insightful

      now we have security and empire, but our empire sure doesn't seem to be doing anything for the average citizen.

      Did empires ever?

      Oddly enough, they have not. You'd think the average citizen would have learned that by now, but having a winning empire is a bit like having a winning sports team: even if you're a big fat loser who never played any sport, you can take pride in the fact that someone you identify with is kicking the ass of someone you've decided not to like.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    14. Re:Troubling by Shakrai · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yes.

      That's absurd. Leftists are so fond of making the "fire in a crowded theater" analogy when it suits them (typically in conversations about infringements on the 2nd amendment) but now you claim the 1st amendment is absolute? It's not illegal to shout "fire!" -- it's illegal to do so in a manner that endangers public safety (see reckless endangerment laws). Likewise, it's not illegal to publish a letter that you received from law enforcement -- but it is illegal to interfere with an ongoing investigation (see obstruction of justice laws)

      I really don't see the 1st amendment issue here. The NSL law is troubling for other reasons (prohibition on seeking legal advice) but not because you can't disclose the letter while the investigation is still ongoing.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    15. Re:Troubling by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Forgot to add:

      On the other hand, I am pleasantly surprised about how much vocal criticism there is in the USA. Living in the Netherlands, I hear and see more criticism and discussion of American policy than of Dutch policy. You're doing something right over there that we're doing wrong over here. Criticism and discussion are good, because only through them can you arrive at better decisions.

      --
      Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
    16. Re:Troubling by commodore64_love · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Read the article:

      "In Merrill's case, although the letter's gag order "was totally clear that they were saying that I couldn't speak to a lawyer" about it, he immediately contacted his personal attorney, and together they went to the ACLU in New York, which agreed to represent him. "My gut feeling is I'm an American," Merrill said, in an interview with Threat Level on Tuesday. "I always have a right to an attorney. There's no such thing as you can't talk to your attorney."

      This guy wasn't allowed to defend himself with a professional lawyer.
      Clearly that is NULL according to both US and NY Constitutions.
      And Supreme Court ruling (see the movie Gideon's Trumpet).

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    17. Re:Troubling by spun · · Score: 4, Informative

      The bases are not all there at the behest of current local governments, we have ongoing treaties dating back to WWII that they can not break without serious repercussions. As for colonies, Puerto Rico, Guam, the Marianna Islands, the US virgin Islands, American Samoa, are all official colonies, but I consider Iraq to be a colony, too, in that we have extracted billions of dollars in natural resources that remain unaccounted for.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    18. Re:Troubling by nj_peeps · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I really don't see the 1st amendment issue here. The NSL law is troubling for other reasons (prohibition on seeking legal advice) but not because you can't disclose the letter while the investigation is still ongoing.

      Last I checked you always have the right to an attorney (which he did contact) no matter what, but this is only part of the problem with NSL's. It's more the infringement of the 4th amendment that concerns me. This is just as bad as the warrantless wire tapping that was going on (and most likely still it). It's an abuse of power if you don't have one branch of government checking on the other. Now if the NSL came with a warrent, signed by a judge to obtain the information/items that where being asked for in the NSL (with just the NSL having the gag order to "protect the ongoing investigation") that would be IMHO would not be an abuse of power.

      --
      "Anyone who trades liberty for security deserves neither liberty nor security" --Benjamin Franklin
    19. Re:Troubling by duppyconqueror · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Let's not forget Mosaddegh "Mohammad Mosaddegh...was the democratically elected[1][2][3][4] Prime Minister of Iran from 1951 to 1953 when he was overthrown in a coup d'état backed by the United States Central Intelligence Agency."

    20. Re:Troubling by Hatta · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Those obstruction of justice laws also violate the First Amendment. Any judge that rules otherwise is failing in their duty to uphold the Constitution.

      The 2nd amendment also codifies an absolute, personal, right of Americans to own any arms (but not munitions).

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    21. Re:Troubling by Shakrai · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yes, the NSL law is loathsome. I've never disputed that. I even responded to mcgrew earlier and suggested that I might be inclined to leak the letter to Wikileaks if I received one.

      All I'm saying is that there isn't a 1st amendment issue when you prohibit a service provider from telling their customer that he's under surveillance. Interfering with an ongoing criminal investigation is obstruction of justice. That's been illegal since the Common Law (i.e: it predates the United States of America) and has never been ruled to be unconstitutional.

      There is a 5th amendment issue here when the service provider is denied the right to confer with his attorney. There is a 4th amendment issue here when the subject of the NSL is denied his right to have a warrant issued before having his communications intercepted. I'm just not seeing a 1st amendment issue though.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    22. Re:Troubling by Monchanger · · Score: 4, Insightful

      American interference in other sovereignties is not equal to maintaining an empire over them. That's an exaggeration made by people who can't find a proper way to explain their grievances.

      Nations have long sought to influence and interfere with their neighbors. Spying, inciting unrest, sabotage, assassination- none of these were invented by the USA.

      Empires expand to tax and pillage. The US actually gives money to other nations to get them to do what we want. Maintaining military bases is objectionable, but still doesn't count, if for no other reason than different bases are maintained for different reasons requiring different definitions and arguments.

      I'm as against American Exceptionalism as the next guy, but pulling the simplistic empire card as if we're equivalent to the British, the Ottomans and the Macedonians is intellectually dishonest.

    23. Re:Troubling by spun · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Thanks for the rhetoric, Mr. Ayers. It's a shame you didn't set off more bombs in your heyday, eh? We could have had the socialist utopia you crave without having to assume this faux image of respectability.

      I'm continually surprised by what passes for argumentation among conservatives. Petty snark, affronted whining, thoughtless jingoism, blatant fearmongering: it's no wonder that the majority of citizens find your positions puerile.

      We're trying to have a grown up conversation here, if you can't act like a grown up and present your thoughts in a rational manner, you should go back and sit at the kid's table.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    24. Re:Troubling by mean+pun · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And yet, you have the freedom to say what I just quoted without being thrown in some secret prison.

      No police state is ever absolute. Even in the former DDR (in my limited knowledge the freakiest control freaks yet) you were able to get away with some things.

      The fact remains that for six years someone was threatened with prison (secret or not) for simply telling someone that he'd been asked questions by the FBI. Surely that is cause for worry? It makes it far too easy to abuse the system, and the US three-letter agencies do not exactly have a spotless record with respect to abuse of the system.

      Of course you also have to wonder how many similar cases there are that are still under a gag order, and whether there are even worse ones.

    25. Re:Troubling by thoromyr · · Score: 3, Informative

      I know of at least one US military base that is officially there "at the behest of the local government". The local government has different ideas, depending on which official you ask.

      The truthful answer is a bit more complicated, going along the lines of: they don't want us to have a military base in their country, but they *do* want something else and we used that as leverage to force the military base on them.

      Saying that base is there "at the behest of the local government" is plain inaccurate. Saying that the local government permitted it under duress would be closer.

    26. Re: Troubling by spun · · Score: 2, Funny

      the roman empire netted common soldiers a nice plot of land in Gaul, the poor in Rome cheap Egyptian wheat, and the empire as a whole several hundred miles of buffer between itself and possible invaders

      Okay, but aside from the Gaulish land, the cheap wheat and the defensible borders, what has the Empire ever done for us?

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    27. Re:Troubling by spun · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You are an idiot. Plenty of countries have 'voluntarily' accepted the yoke of empire, but that doesn't mean it's any less of an empire.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    28. Re:Troubling by spun · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Don't you have a hit to take hippie?

      What's your motivation for posting that? Are you trying to insult me? Win me over to your way of thinking? Convince others you are right? Whatever your motivations, you might want to look at your tactics. I don't think they are getting you what you want.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    29. Re:Troubling by Shakrai · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Civil disobedience is not a free activity. Sometimes it's worth paying the price for standing up for what you believe in. Rosa Parks was found guilty and assessed a fine. Does that mean she shouldn't have done what she did?

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    30. Re:Troubling by Shakrai · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Because there is nothing inherent in a corporation that is different from a government

      Corporations don't have the power to send armed agents to kick in my door and slap handcuffs on me.....

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    31. Re:Troubling by Shakrai · · Score: 2, Informative

      No they wouldn't. The mainstream media has many flaws but they do tend to take source protection pretty seriously. Many reporters from mainstream outlets have gone to jail to protect their sources.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    32. Re:Troubling by suomynonAyletamitlU · · Score: 3, Insightful

      IANAL or constitutional scholar, but the FBI is I believe part of the executive branch, where the consitution and the first amendment in particular is aimed at the legislature: "Congress shall make no law"

      It is the legislature's responsibility to reign in the executive (as well as the populace) by passing laws. it is not going to be stopped by laws that do not exist, and the First Amendment does not seem to be censuring, forbidding, or stipulating punishment for acts of the executive branch which amount to censorship.

      Therefore, I believe, this isn't a constitutional matter unless the executive has been given guidelines in the form of laws that specifically allow it. If it is merely that it hasn't been restrained, it cannot possibly fall under the jurisdiction of that amendment. As you say, it is pretty clearly worded.

      If you have a beef with particular laws that are dictating first amendment violations, mention them, and move to have them changed. THAT is what the judicial branch, and specifically the supreme court, is for.

    33. Re:Troubling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      As I said, the law is troubling, just not from a 1st amendment perspective.

      The ISP's 1st amendment right to discuss the policy of NSL, in general terms and without revealing the specific investigation in question, is quashed. The first amendment also guarantees the right to 'petition the Government for a redress of grievances.' ie: if ISP receives an NSL, thinks it's invalid because there was no due process behind it (thus violating the customer's 4th amendment rights), the terms of the NSL prohibit any legal action. One might argue that the terms of the NSL violate the ISP's 5th amendment right to Assistance of Counsel, except that the ISP is not actually accused of anything, nor being compelled to witness against itself, nor otherwise the subject of criminal prosecution, although legal counsel is effectively required to petition the gov't for redress.

    34. Re:Troubling by richardellisjr · · Score: 2, Informative

      The letter was sent to him, and specifically told him he couldn't share it's contents with anyone. So unless he could prove the letter was stolen or his lawyer posted it he'd be screwed. And if the lawyer posted it he'd probably be disbarred unless he said the client approved the posting in which case where back to him sharing the contents. No matter which way you cut it if it got out he's more than likely going to jail.

    35. Re:Troubling by Teun · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Of course you also have to wonder how many similar cases there are that are still under a gag order, and whether there are even worse ones.

      I don't have to wonder.

      And I'm sorry to say so.

      --
      "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
    36. Re:Troubling by spun · · Score: 2, Informative

      Do you suffer from dyslexia? I never said liberals were in the majority, I said the majority find Shakrai's style of petty snark, affronted whining, and fearmongering puerile.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    37. Re:Troubling by Red+Flayer · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I agree fully -- and I'm a liberal :)

      Of course, I've always seen Obama as a corporatist centrist, just like Clinton... I don't know why so many vocal liberals were under the delusion that Obama was exactly what they wanted him to be, instead of what he really is.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    38. Re:Troubling by mcgrew · · Score: 3, Insightful

      A line from a Who song comes to mind; corporations have guns that fire cops. The government has become big business' bitch, and government does what big business tells it to. I at least have a vote with the government, however meaningless that vote may be, but I have no control whatever over any corporation.

      If the President of GM wants you in prison, you'll go to prison. Their hired thugs are called "policemen".

    39. Re:Troubling by JustNilt · · Score: 2, Funny

      Did you really just cite a movie as a reference?! It's not that hard to cite the actual case, after all. That being said, this case dealt with a criminal case, not so much a civil matter such as this. While I agree that you should always be allowed to consult an attorney, I don't think Gideon v Wainwright actually applied in this case.

      --
      You know the thing about UDP jokes? I don't care if you get it or not.
    40. Re:Troubling by Khisanth+Magus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      A fine is different from 5 years in jail when you have a family to support.

    41. Re:Troubling by nbauman · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Heck, these guys make me nostalgic for Nixon.

      Nixon appointed Daniel Patrick Moynihan as his secretary of Health and Human Services, and he let Moynihan promote some very progressive policies, like the guaranteed annual income, and a health policy that was better than Obama's.

      Ralph Nader said that on domestic policy, Nixon was better than the Clinton Administration.

    42. Re:Troubling by fishexe · · Score: 4, Funny

      Did you really just cite a movie as a reference?! It's not that hard to cite the actual case, after all.

      We're Americans (mostly). We won't look up the case, but we might watch the movie. So which is a better way to get the point across, cite something we'll look up or something we won't?

      --
      "I don't care about the Constitution!" --Bill O'Reilly, November 17, 2009
    43. Re:Troubling by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Corporations don't have the power to send armed agents to kick in my door and slap handcuffs on me.....

      The easy to find FBI raids on behalf of software, record and movie companies speaks to the contrary. They very much do have the political power to get armed agents to kick in your door and arrest you.

    44. Re:Troubling by Jawnn · · Score: 4, Insightful

      >>>the FBI will have known it was he who leaked the info.

      And people wonder why I fear Government more than GM, microsoft, RCA or other corporations. It should be obvious.

      I don't wonder. You're obviously one of the many who have forgotten, or quite possibly never even learned, that "We The People are our government. Yes, I will readily stipulate that We have been more than a bit derelict in our duties as citizens and allowed GM, Microsoft, RCA, et al to gain status equal to our own and with that in hand, influence all out of proportion, but if We were to wake the hell up and and toss out the corporate lackeys we've "elected" and elect representatives who will promise to represent the interests of the citizens and to make the changes (Supreme Court and/or Constitutional Amendment) that would guarantee that, we could regain control of our government and have it serve us once again.

      Yes, it occurs to me how much that sounds like the rant of a Tea Bagger. The difference is that for all their bluster about wanting their country back, they have, for the most part, aligned themselves with a group that is most likely to betray them in favor of GM, Microsoft, BP, et al, pissing all over The Constitution in the process.

      So whether it be through ignorance or apathy not much is likely to change, but if you don't like what's happening, if you truly "fear" your government, you have only yourself and your fellow citizens to blame for allowing such a thing to come to pass.

    45. Re:Troubling by spun · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No, no, I'm even more surprised by the argumentation of liberals because I expect more from them. Perhaps most disappointing is their emotion laden appeals for other liberals to stop picking on poor president Obama for not doing what he promised to do, he's just a man not a miracle worker, how can you expect him to do everything he promised in just two years? You know what I say to those "LEeeaaave Brittany Alone!" liberals? I say, fuck that corporate toady Obama, fuck him right in the ear.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    46. Re:Troubling by The+Spoonman · · Score: 5, Informative

      Well, that of course excludes Coca-Cola who assassinated union leaders in Columbia, or Chevron who hired a private militia in Nigeria to fire on protesters outside their plant or DeBeers who fund private armies to protect their diamond monopolies, or...yeah, who am I kidding, facts never change the mind of a zealot...

      --
      Which is more painful? Going to work or gouging your eye out with a spoon? Find out!
      http://www.workorspoon.com
    47. Re:Troubling by tqk · · Score: 3, Informative

      If the President of GM wants you in prison, you'll go to prison.

      Citation needed.

      Would you accept a parallel example:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Fruit

      Not that I consider GM equiv. to UF (I like Chevy's), but the potential's always there.

      --
      "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
    48. Re:Troubling by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      On second thought: the first amendment infringement seems to be a second order effect. In other words, it's not that NSLs in and of themselves infringe on the first amendment. But what they are designed to do is to make it impossible to even have a public discussion about NSLs.

      With wiretaps, you can go to historical cases where the court records have been unsealed and discuss their appropriateness in public. I believe this holds true even for grand juries. In other words, it is possible to have a public discussion about whether a specific wiretap or grand jury development was appropriate at some later point in time. With NSLs, that's impossible, if you believe what they say. Public discourse about NSLs is basically impossible at that point, unless you disobey the instructions in them and the laws associated with them. And that's a first amendment issue.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    49. Re:Troubling by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Thought experiment: what if the Government removes its monopoly on force, either in the name of deregulation or because the government wants to outsource that part of its work?

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    50. Re:Troubling by HereIAmJH · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Like it or not, we need WikiLeaks.

      I don't know that we need WikiLeaks. What we need is unbiased investigative reporting, something that is sorely lacking these days because it is hard work. WikiLeaks, aka Julian Assange, has a definite anti-war and possibly an anti-US agenda. Which is his right, I'm not one of those people that thinks 'inalienable rights' requires citizenship.

      OTOH, his military source violated US laws and was well aware of what s/he was doing and should be prosecuted. Civil disobedience is not without it's risks. If we were in a real war this information leak would have resulted in a date with a firing squad.

      As far as the case at hand, the gag orders as implemented are a complete violation. As long as the FISA court is working, and no one is implying that it isn't, there is no justification for national security letters. But publishing a few on WikiLeaks isn't going to have any real effect on their use. WikiLeaks would have about as much credibility with the average American as Al Jazeera.

      --
      Another day, another update to a Google android app.
    51. Re:Troubling by future+assassin · · Score: 4, Interesting

      >A fine is different from 5 years in jail when you have a family to support.

      My mom and all her friends did that in Poland in the early 1980's. She was eventually kidnapped from in front of our house, interrogated, beaten black and blue and sent to a special prison in Goldap Poland http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=Goldap+Poland+prison&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

      Actually my aunt, my moms sister who was also arrested around the same time got the worst of the beatings with full fists of heir missing from her head.

      My mom also took me to this riot http://www.lubin82.pl/index_eng.html

      She did what she had to do to stop tyranny and oppression.

      Eventually the gov realized it would be much easier to just let all political activists emigrate where ever they wanted to. We came to Canada while her other friends ended up in the places like the USA and South Africa.

      --
      by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
    52. Re:Troubling by pugugly · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That sounds suspiciously like it validates to "If it's worth my having it's worth him making a sacrifice for.".

      Pug

      --
      An Invisible Entity of Vast Power whose existence must be taken on faith alone: Liberal Media
    53. Re:Troubling by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That is because "WE" have let a small group (Judges) define Corporations (Creations of the State) as having the same "Rights" as Persons.

      Hear me very carefully. WE the PEOPLE need to get together and tell the government (by CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT) that non-citizen entities (Corporations) are not afforded ANY rights as "persons". NONE. They are granted PRIVILEGES only, including their own existence, and violation of those privileges will result in increasing penalties, including the "corporate death penalty", whereby their corporate charter is revoked and stock holders lose everything.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    54. Re:Troubling by pugugly · · Score: 3, Informative

      Ah - Prop 8 is proof that, having voted to extend certain rights equally among all citizens and legal residents of the United States, we don't get to vote that we only meant that for people we liked.

      That being, y'know, the whole reason for the 14th amendment and all. Which our duly appointed representatives made part of the supreme law of the land.

      And Glenn Beck now wants to repeal.

      Pug

      --
      An Invisible Entity of Vast Power whose existence must be taken on faith alone: Liberal Media
    55. Re:Troubling by russotto · · Score: 2, Informative

      No one's saying you can't stand up to the government rules. But you need to recall that they are, at the time, rules and by breaking them you will likely have the punishment for doing so applied to your bad self. That's when you are actually allowed to do the most good by having a public trial, getting the media involved, and changing the public's mind. It's a big risk to be arrested by the federal government and most people balk at the opportunity it could present.

      You won't get all of that. Civil disobedience is a tactic which governments have adapted to and thus no longer works. Now if you break a bad law, the consequences aren't a showy public trial and a few months in jail. No, instead, they'll arrest you, freeze all your assets (so you can't defend yourself), harass your family, and delay resolution of the case until any media interest has subsided. THEN they'll have the trial and throw you in PMITA prison for a few years. Perhaps you'll get out; you'll be a convicted felon, having worth only as an bad example for others.

    56. Re:Troubling by russotto · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The truthful answer is a bit more complicated, going along the lines of: they don't want us to have a military base in their country, but they *do* want something else and we used that as leverage to force the military base on them.

      Saying that base is there "at the behest of the local government" is plain inaccurate. Saying that the local government permitted it under duress would be closer.

      Sounds like "the local government permitted it as part of a quid-pro-quo" would be even closer.

      Unless you're referring to South Korea, in which case they could hardly get what they want from the US _without_ a military base.

    57. Re:Troubling by JWSmythe · · Score: 2, Insightful

          Sitting on the back of a city bus has a strategic advantage.

          If the bus has two doors, you have very quick access to the rear door.

          You can observe everyone boarding the bus, and their activities while on the bus, without changing your direction of view.

          In the event something "bad" happens, you have the opportunity to duck behind the seat in front of you. If some nutjob, or someone after you, comes on with a gun, you have time to take cover before you are seen. With a little luck, there will be a lot of resistance before they get to you. If not, they are at least distracted by checking every seat, when you can hear them walking up the aisle.

          While they are walking row to row, seeing if you are hiding, there's a good chance the driver will make moves to stop the action. A bus doesn't stop like a sports car, but he can sure stop fast enough to send someone who isn't holding on, flying forward and ending up on the floor. He also has the opportunity to call for police assistance.

          Sitting by the front door, you can be one of the first in view, which is less than advantageous. If they board at the rear door, you may not see them until they are already on board and searching.

          Sitting in the middle of the bus does give you two escape routes, but again it does limit your visibility of a potential attacker.

          While most people don't think too much about tactical advantage, sometimes it will save your life. If it's a bad neighborhood, it's a prudent choice to have an advantage. If you're in a good area, the chances of crime are lower, but they can still happen.

          I don't ride buses much, but when I do, I weigh my options. The best choice is usually the back. If I'm coming up to my stop, I frequently walk forward, but I can then see out all the side windows and the windshield to evaluate the outside situation before the bus stops.

          If you've never had a violent encounter, congratulations. No matter where you are, it could always happen sometime, and you don't want the first time it happens to be the time you become the victim.

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    58. Re:Troubling by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Corporations don't have the power to send armed agents to kick in my door and slap handcuffs on me.....

      Ever wondered what organisation decided and enforced the decision that they don't have that power?

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    59. Re:Troubling by JoeMerchant · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Civil disobedience is not a free activity. Sometimes it's worth paying the price for standing up for what you believe in. Rosa Parks was found guilty and assessed a fine. Does that mean she shouldn't have done what she did?

      And what did she gain? As far as I can tell, by my experience, black people still sit in the back of the bus.

      Yes, of course, they don't have to sit there, but most of them seem to.

      You, not having these kinds of rules enforced on you, may not appreciate the difference. The difference is huge when you do if by choice instead of lack of choice.

  2. Yeah. by TrisexualPuppy · · Score: 5, Informative

    An old buddy of mine works at the FBI. He says that these demanding letters come in all shapes and forms, are frequently quite illegitimate, and are becoming more and more widely spread.

    Basically, the FBI is doing what the MAFIAA do--they know that they're the big boys with power and money and will go against you whether you're right or wrong because nearly no one will fight.

    1. Re:Yeah. by mcgrew · · Score: 2

      An old buddy of mine works at the FBI. He says that these demanding letters come in all shapes and forms, are frequently quite illegitimate, and are becoming more and more widely spread.

      TFA says the same thing, so your post serves to back up what TFA said.

    2. Re:Yeah. by Ironhandx · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Ah, I wish I still had mod points.

      It reminds me of a story about a Canadian who refused to cooperate with the FBI and had the FBI officer argue with him until he was blue in the face that the man had to cooperate with them and it was illegal to do otherwise.

      To be fair though the FBI can just put a request through proper channels and the RCMP can go get whatever they needed. It is illegal to be uncooperative with the RCMP in Canada. Its funny how often the FBI thinks they can just do whatever they want and bypass all of the regs though.

    3. Re:Yeah. by TrisexualPuppy · · Score: 5, Interesting

      So your buddy is allowed to talk about them with people outside of the bureau (presuming you don't work for them too), but those that receive them aren't?

      Yes, we were discussing policy. He can talk about policy all day long but by no means is he allowed to talk to me about specific cases.

    4. Re:Yeah. by elrous0 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Unregulated power *always* invites abuse. If an FBI agent knows he can just use one of these letters without needing to prove anything to court and that he will never have to answer for it, why *wouldn't* he use it for everything? I would be surprised if they even bothered with warrants at all anymore (except in high-profile cases that might invite media scrutiny).

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
  3. I can tell you. by AnonymousClown · · Score: 2, Informative
    The FBI wanted the entire customer list and all of their assigned IP address for as long as they were with the ISP.

    IOW, they wanted everything.

    --
    RIP America

    July 4, 1776 - September 11, 2001

    1. Re:I can tell you. by Ironhandx · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I just wish this guy had another ISP opened. I would like to get my Internet connection from him, AKA someone with scruples.

  4. Bet this guy was VERY exceptional by elrous0 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    For every ISP like this who stood up to the feds, I wonder how many just caved and put their own business interests ahead of the civil rights of their clients?

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    1. Re:Bet this guy was VERY exceptional by ink · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Unfortunately, there's no way to know with these "gag orders" in place. Even if some piece of information is needed for national security reasons, it should be subject to speedy judicial review after the fact -- otherwise, there is no mechanism to identify abuse.

      --
      The wheel is turning, but the hamster is dead.
    2. Re:Bet this guy was VERY exceptional by commodore64_love · · Score: 4, Insightful

      >>>it should be subject to speedy judicial review after the fact -

      BEFORE the fact. Warrants are supposed to be issued by judges, not police, and while under oath. These warrants the police are issuing without involving the courts are unconstitutional.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
  5. Power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I agree 100%, but what this really is is yet another reminder that political power cannot be fought. Political power is the special right to employ physical force as a means to an end. Nobody holds that special right except for government. That one special right is, in fact, what defines government and seperates government from everybody else.

    Why am I going on about this? Because that one special right is the most dangerous thing in the world, and for this reason it MUST be strictly limited. Think twice about cheering for more and more government along with the masses. Remember that we are already living under the most expensive, most powerful government this world has ever seen. If you advocate more government on certain matters, AT LEAST consider that the power you advocate should be re-allocated from other parts of government which are over-powered (and there are many), rather than created out of thin air. All too often I see people on slashdot cheering for yet even more government, without even giving consideration to the fact that they are already subject (if they live in the US) to the most powerful empire in history, with military bases in over 150 countries around the world.

    They already have enough power. They already have enough revenue. In fact, they have way too much of both, and that is why the level of injustice is increasing, not decreasing, over time.

  6. Prez! by natehoy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Nicholas Merrill for President... of Comcast, AT&T, Verizon, etc!!!!

    Who's with me?

    --
    "This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
  7. FBI Liars by AnonymousClown · · Score: 2, Funny
    Ah, so the FBI are liars.

    I wonder why I root for Al Capone in all those gangster movies.....

    --
    RIP America

    July 4, 1776 - September 11, 2001

  8. be smarter still-The Santa Cruz method by way2trivial · · Score: 5, Interesting

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/03/10/LIBRARIES.TMP
    "In Santa Cruz, where library officials are trying to stir up patrons about the Patriot Act, chief librarian Anne Turner has found a more subtle way to sidestep the gag order, if she ever faces one.

    "At each board meeting I tell them we have not been served by any (search warrants)," she said. "In any months that I don't tell them that, they'll know."

    --
    every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
    1. Re:be smarter still-The Santa Cruz method by dkleinsc · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Another variation on this tactic that I saw in Vermont was a sign on the wall of the library that said "The FBI has not been here. Watch for the discrete removal of this sign."

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
  9. Yeah! National security! For our own protection! by Benfea · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's for our own protection, comrade! If you disagree with this, that means you're with the capitalists and against Mother Russia! We know how to deal with uppity citizens who refuse to cooperate with the KGB!

    No offense, but our government has such a track record of claiming "national security" when it is anything but that I am inclined to not believe them when I hear those words. Half the time, it turns out to be our freedoms being curtailed for purely political reasons (either to cover someone's @ss or to harass an enemy). And you know what? Every totalitarian government uses that claim (or something similar) when they run roughshod over the rights of their constituents.

    The Soviets were protecting their people from capitalist spies, capitalist saboteurs, and other unsavory "anti-revolutionary" types. The Nazis were protecting their people from Jews, gypsies, communists, homosexuals, union members, etc., etc. For our government, the boogeyman changes from time to time (drug dealers, terrorists, immigrants, etc.), but the purpose is the same. Your problem is that you've obviously fallen from the boogeyman scare tactics and failed to see it for what it is, and your reaction is exactly what those peddling fear could have hoped for.

    Anyone who is trying to sell you something using fear is up to no good, or they would not have to resort to such tactics. We have a certain tradition in this country, and letting the government do whatever the hell they want as long as they use the magic words "national security" or "for your own protection" is not part of that tradition.

  10. A Solution? by karcirate · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Here's what you do when you get one of these letters:

    1) Deny that you have any of the records they are looking for.
    2) Make sure that data (which you do have) is seriously protected.
    3) They have no way to get the data from you now without either:
    a. arresting you for not complying - in which case their secrecy is blown, so they won't do that
    b. getting a court ordered warrant - in which case their secrecy is blown, so they won't do that
    c. Getting all sneaky and stealing the data - see #2
    d. Totally screwing you over and destroying your life - in which case their secrecy is blown because once your life is destroyed, you have nothing to lose by revealing the letter, so they won't do that
    4) Dance

    1. Re:A Solution? by evilviper · · Score: 4, Insightful

      1) Deny that you have any of the records they are looking for.

      Lying to the FBI is a crime.

      If you don't mind going to jail, sure, you have LOTS of options. He could have just ignored the gag order and blabbed about it everywhere.

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
  11. EVERY american has a right to attorney! by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 2, Interesting

    you CANNOT undo that. sorry. no letter can undo that.

    this quote was GOLD!

    "My gut feeling is I'm an American," Merrill said, in an interview with Threat Level on Tuesday. "I always have a right to an attorney. There's no such thing as you can't talk to your attorney."

    if there's a fund for this guy, I'd be happy to donate some cash to him. he seems like a GOOD GUY!

    I honestly don't know what I'd do if I got one of these illegal letters (yes, I consider this illegal to DENY me my right to an attorney. YOU, mr. government, have all you want; I deserve at least ONE.

    this is HUGE. people have created revolutions on less than this!

    "sorry, but we have the right to lock you up and fuck you over and you can't even defend yourself".

    BULLSHIT!

    just push enough people and eventually one will 'flip out' and make the news. maybe then it will get some deserved attention.

    this 'law' is SO WRONG on so many levels.

    --

    --
    "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    1. Re:EVERY american has a right to attorney! by skids · · Score: 2, Interesting

      He is a consistently good guy, going on decades now. Just keep him in mind if you want to host anything -- might be a bit pricier/less featureful than other ISPs, but it comes with the peace of mind that the company is customer-first.

  12. Other uses for this sidestep? by traindirector · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "At each board meeting I tell them we have not been served by any (search warrants)," she said. "In any months that I don't tell them that, they'll know."

    I wonder if this technique could be used in other ways.

    An ISP could use automation to send its customers some sort of message once a day as long as the the customer is not under investigation in a message queue the customer doesn't need to check. If an NSL comes for a customer, the "not under investigation" flag could be disabled for that customer. The ISP could then set up an email alert / automated phone message if the message is not sent one day to make it very obvious to the customer that some unidentified investigation is going on.

    Title 18, U.S.C. Section 2709(c) seems to only specifically prohibit disclosure "that the Federal Bureau of Investigation has sought or obtained access to information or records". Stopping sending notifications that there is no investigation doesn't necessarily seem to violate that prohibition.

    1. Re:Other uses for this sidestep? by darnkitten · · Score: 2, Interesting

      At our library conference, the legal folks said that removing the "we have not been served with a NSL" sign would count as a violation of the gag order.

    2. Re:Other uses for this sidestep? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      http://www.rsync.net/resources/notices/canary.txt

      rsync.net has been doing that for quite a while now.

  13. You get what you don't pay for by Forrest+Kyle · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Here's a reminder for all the Obama fanatics:

    "the fight over NSLs is not over. The Obama administration has been seeking to expand the FBI’s power to demand internet activity records of customers without court approval or suspicion of wrongdoing. If granted, the data sought without a court order could expand to include web browser and search history, and Facebook friend requests."

    It puts many of the anti-Bush wiretapping arguments in perspective. I was certainly not a supporter of George W. Bush, but my support of Ron Paul is looking more sparkling by the month.

  14. Have you ever been to jail? by Rene+S.+Hollan · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If not, I have to question your willingness to incur incarceration for your principles. Not that I think it would be wrong -- I'd applaud you. But, I'm not convinced you know what you'd be in for.

    If you are incarcerated for more than a few days, you will probably lose your job, which will make mounting a legal defense more difficult unless you have plenty of cash (and it hasn't been seized or your assets otherwise frozen). I presume you will not accept a plea bargain, because it appears you would rather fight. Expect that to be expensive, and drawn out. Also expect bail to be set so high that you can't effectively participate with your legal team in your defense, particularly if you're a thorn in the government's side.

    --
    In Liberty, Rene
  15. Disturbing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    SIX YEARS just to release his name, it shouldn't have taken SIX MONTHS to get that far for such obviously unconstitutional actions. Most of the courts decisions were correct, if mildly worded (these courts should be shouting "holy s*** this is unconstitutional, what were you people thinking?" not "..may likely be unconstitutional"), but sheesh. If I broke into a government office and was caught stealing documents I highly doubt I could expect to be free on bond for SIX YEARS just to get to the point were I was convicted of pocketing one of their ball point pens (sorry the closest citizen analogy I could think of).

  16. Court? by Paracelcus · · Score: 3, Interesting

    you mean a show trial? How about "Special Administrative Measures" where you just disappear, never to be heard from again (except for some faint screaming from a Pakistani prison!

    --
    I killed da wabbit -Elmer Fudd
  17. this is true by zogger · · Score: 2, Interesting

    A lot of reporters have stood their ground on sources. An even larger number have sold out to the authorities and worked sub rosa for them, spreading disinfo or gathering intel, etc. It's a well mixed bag. http://whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/ARCHIVE/ciamedia.html

    1. Re:this is true by zogger · · Score: 3, Interesting

      that site is OK. Google around, do your own research. Here, I found this just searching for that title in quotes:

      http://tmh.floonet.net/articles/cia_press.html

      Now think about modern day "embedded reporters". They won't be embedded very long if they don't pump out the official party line. That's just as corrupt, IMO. And if they aren't embedded, they just kill them, you must have seen that video of the apache video game gunner wasting those reporters and the civilians who stopped to help them. That's what militaries do to non tame reporters now, kill them if they feel like it. All belligerent/aggressive/totalitarian nations do it to reporters. You are on the payroll sub rosa or even above board, parrot the party line or disseminate the "big lie" disinformation, or you are a target they will get around to eventually if they feel like it, chose one.

      Here ya go, another

      http://en.rsf.org/

  18. You can't dance without kneecaps by dbIII · · Score: 2, Insightful

    e. hit you a lot and charge you with the lazy cop trifecta of resisting arrest, attempted assault on an officer and obscene language. It's their word against yours.
    Once law enforcement starts going down the "might is right" route you have to be careful which fights you choose because the wonders of medicine can not fix all damage or remove all pain. Unless you are somebody that a lot of people care about or somebody sets you up as a "symbol" your hardship just becomes another statistic for a later historian.
    Remember the good cops that play everything by the book are not likely to put you in this sort of situation anyway. It's the minority that are on their way somewhere at all costs and you don't really want to get in the way of their ambition. Unjust laws like this give them free reign without the usual time consuming details of due process.

  19. This is also the RSYNC.NET canary approach by Terje+Mathisen · · Score: 2, Interesting

    RSync.net, the online backup company, has been using a "warrant canary" for many years now:

    Every week they update a special page with a PGP-signed dated article stating something like this:

    http://www.rsync.net/resources/notices/canary.txt

    The current message is here:


    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    2010-08-09

    No warrants have ever been served to rsync.net, or rsync.net principals or employees.
    No searches or seizures of any kind have ever been performed on rsync.net assets,
    including:

    ALL San Diego locations
    ALL Denver locations
    ALL Zurich locations
    ALL Hong Kong locations

    (from www.NewYorkTimes.com)

    In Crackdown on Energy Use, China to Shut 2,000 Factories

    By closing some steel mills, cement works and other energy-intensive factories, the government said it hoped to improve energy efficiency.
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
    Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (FreeBSD)

    iD8DBQFMYFymBzwoLX1vgGwRAsgCAJ9HU6xDNuJot7PlS39/zGAfGEed+gCffWrJ
    ltsbJAqoiTwyWbKFuP+UOt8=
    =reux
    -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

    Terje

    --
    "almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"