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Google Wave and the Difficulty of Radical Change

cedarhillbilly writes "An article by Matt Asay in the Register takes on Google Wave from the perspective of visionary change versus incremental change. He suggests that visionaries should focus on smaller transformations of our day-to-day lives rather than leapfrogging. 'Much as it may want to radically change the world for users and developers, radical change generally happens over time, through a series of incremental, unexceptional edits to existing technology and processes.' Perhaps Google sensed this when they famously said they were worried about having too many geniuses. Asay revisits the point that the open source development model necessarily builds on a community of contributors and users, and not the mad scientist in an ivory tower."

35 of 179 comments (clear)

  1. Be radical. by 3vi1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    >> He suggests that visionaries should focus on smaller transformations of our day-to-day lives rather than leapfrogging.

    Why can't they make something radical, then add on compatibility stepping stones for a transition period? Would Wave have been so unused if you could read your normal POP3 mail in it and intercommunicate with traditional IM systems?

    1. Re:Be radical. by WrongSizeGlass · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Baby steps get you somewhere, leaps leave a lot of people behind. You need to nudge people to make the small changes ... and you have to rely on the young and the brave to try something new.

    2. Re:Be radical. by TarMil · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Would Wave have been so unused if you could read your normal POP3 mail in it and intercommunicate with traditional IM systems?

      This is the real deal. Wave was too far away from everything we know, and had too few links with the rest of the world. People accept radical novelties when they can blend in with what they are used to.

    3. Re:Be radical. by hedwards · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It wasn't an issue of being radical, it was an issue of it being a collaborative tool, restricted to a small number of people and lacking an obvious purpose. People don't generally learn to use a tool in case it becomes helpful later on, they learn to use it because they have an idea as to what to do with it. They might only need it for a theoretical contingency plan, but they at least have an idea what the purpose is. It's rare for something to take off just from random tinkering.

    4. Re:Be radical. by kenwd0elq · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I _WAS_ an early adopter of Wave. It was an interesting concept - but nothing that existing programs didn't do just as well. Our office used it for a while, but it was just easier to use email.

  2. Too many geniuses? by pedantic+bore · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Nobody who spent any time using Wave thought that the problems were due to too many geniuses in the mix.

    A real genius doesn't just show you a vision. A real genius creates a useful artifact that solves a problem of importance. We're not talking about art.

    --
    Am I part of the core demographic for Swedish Fish?
    1. Re:Too many geniuses? by kestasjk · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "If I had asked my customers what they wanted they would have said a faster horse." - Ford

      Sometimes projects swing and miss, let's not forget the dozens of promises made about Longhorn before it got scrapped and downsized, WinFS and whatnot; it wasn't as public but far more resources were wasted, and I expect Google has internal projects which come to nothing constantly as well..

      I don't think there are any great insights to draw from Google Wave; they worked on it, it got hyped up, it didn't catch on, bummer. Doesn't take a genius or a madman in an ivory tower for that to happen

      --
      // MD_Update(&m,buf,j);
    2. Re:Too many geniuses? by darkonc · · Score: 5, Interesting
      Longhorn, WinFS, etc. were probably more a product of MS Marketing than the 'too many Geniuses' problem. It's an old trick that they probably learned from IBM's heydays.

      Promise your existing customer base ('everyone') a miracle (vaporware) product that will do everything that they ever wanted. Promise it next year. That way, when your competitors come out with a real product that does most of what your customers want -- or even all of what they really need, you can convince their CxO to "just wait until next year when our miracle product comes out -- then you won't have to deal with migration issues, etc.".

      Then you can slowly move the target -- both what your 'miracle' product does and when it will be out -- until your promises and reality jive. By then your competitor's product will be easy to pooh-pooh as 'only slightly better than what we've got' and needing all of that migration work, etc.

      Rinse, repeat.

      Microsoft took a big hit with Longhorn -> Vista because Vista turned out to be such a massive dud. Now, MS is going to have a hard time convincing people to believe any of their long-term promises about much of anything.

      --
      Sometimes boldness is in fashion. Sometimes only the brave will be bold.
    3. Re:Too many geniuses? by nomel · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I can somewhat agree, but I think it was mostly releasing poor code that caused its death. To me, *the* biggest problem with wave was that it was virtually unusable for the majority of its life. If you reached near 50 edits, the page would begin to crawl and the whole timeline system would come to a standstill. Once you neared 100 blips, the typing would slow to a few characters per second...on a dual core system. Loading was into the 10 to 20 second range, and scrolling with their whole custom rubber band scroll bar became unbearable, well more so than it already was. The code was *horribly* unoptimized. This is why all of the heavy users that I knew, including myself, stopped using it. When they finally got around to making the interface something usable, we weren't interested anymore.

      Also, the whole lack of inline images (without searching for a bot), lack of gmail integration, and lack of blip management (copy, move, etc) was a real PITA.

  3. I couldn't disagree more by TheoCryst · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Google Wave didn't fail because it was "too innovative" or "too radical." History is jam packed full of inventions and technologies that succeeded precisely because they were drastically better than what came before them (lightbulb versus candle, car versus horse, calculator versus abacus, GUI versus CLI). Google Wave failed for a combination of reasons. It wasn't marketed well, it didn't really solve any problems, and it just wasn't "better" enough over the standard ways of browsing the web.

    Google Wave was a cool engineering project, but never should have been taken to market.

    --
    Warning: Contents May Be Flammable. Keep Out Of Reach Of Children.
    1. Re:I couldn't disagree more by nine-times · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think the main problems were:

      (a) It was unfocused. What were they trying to build, a replacement for email or a collaborative word processor? It wasn't really great at either. Take a lesson from Apple-- sometimes it's better for a product to do 3 things really really well than to do 10 things poorly.

      (b) The limited invite system is not a good way to launch a communications product that only works for talking to other people with that product. Invites worked for Gmail because you could still email everyone. Waves only worked with other Wave users, and there weren't very many of them. Google should have polished the system more and then launched big. If they made a big splash, they might have captured enough interest to keep it going. Instead everyone tried it out for a week or two, said, "this doesn't seem to be useful," and then they never looked at it again.

    2. Re:I couldn't disagree more by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I don't see any benefit to integrating email into the Wave system - I wouldn't want to interactively create an email message,

      That's not the only thing you could do with it. Since it had extensions, you could easily embed, say, a map, a calendar meeting, or a survey into a Wave. Tools to embed these things into email are cumbersome, nonstandard, and not necessarily secure. Having the concept built-in has some advantages.

      It's also useful in that if someone's not online, it can behave like email, much better than IM offline messages for the same purpose. But when someone is online, it simply and naturally flips to IM. It's nice that Google Talk is in Gmail, but it's not truly integrated -- I can't immediately continue an email conversation as IM, or vice versa.

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    3. Re:I couldn't disagree more by CarpetShark · · Score: 2, Funny

      It wasn't intended to replace web browsing

      Alas, now that the project is cancelled, we'll never really know what it was supposed to be ;)

    4. Re:I couldn't disagree more by dkf · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If they made a big splash, they might have captured enough interest to keep it going. Instead everyone tried it out for a week or two, said, "this doesn't seem to be useful," and then they never looked at it again.

      I for one am not sorry to see it go. We tried it pretty heavily for about 3 months as a way of helping people across multiple sites do collaborative software development and deployment, and it's big problem was that it was extremely hard to find what you were looking for (ironic for a Google product!) or what had changed in a large Wave (several hundred messages, many of which were relatively large things like full stack traces). Perhaps we just didn't try it right, perhaps, but going back to email and wiki pages was a relief.

      --
      "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
    5. Re:I couldn't disagree more by lakeland · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, I disagree with you :)

      I think wave failed because it did not have a transition path.

      Wave is for collaboration, it was pretty much useless for just one person. Gmail interacts with any SMTP server so it was easy to grow organically. I think wave was a similar step above gmail as gmail was to webmail at the time. However wave made no real attempt to interact with legacy systems (even google legacy systems like gmail, google talk, google docs) and so with wave it was almost like joining a gated community and it quickly got boring...

    6. Re:I couldn't disagree more by bennomatic · · Score: 2, Funny

      Well, what everyone missed is that it was also a particle .

      --
      The CB App. What's your 20?
    7. Re:I couldn't disagree more by asavage · · Score: 2, Informative

      I think your points are good. Additionally it was too buggy. Google is good at producing proof of concept software but don't seem to have people willing to flush out bugs (outside of core projects). A messenger or collaboration tool needs to show who is online. When I started using Google wave it would show yourself as online with a green dot but didn't show anyone else online. They eventually fixed this, but when they did, it was still broken. I have a friend who was always marked as online for several months even though they didn't login once. Google wave would also get slower and slower as the wave grew larger. If two people are just using it to talk after about an hour it would become so slow you could type a sentence before the first letter would appear on the screen. There are lots of interesting features but if you can't even get the basics working properly your product is not fit for general use.

  4. Re:They killed it too early by diegocg · · Score: 2, Interesting

    No, it doesn't, at least according to this rule: "Any software in this century that reinvents the scroll bar deserves to fail" - http://www.scottberkun.com/blog/2010/lessons-from-wave-and-kin/

  5. Failure after 3 months? by yyxx · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Google Wave was a collaboration tool, and that made it nearly useless during its limited preview. It was available generally for less than three months before Google killed it. That would be a ridiculously short time for any new service, let alone for one that actually requires network effects to become useful.

    I don't know whether Google Wave would have replaced E-mail or chat; it had the potential to do that, but that was far off. But it was an excellent collaboration tool. It could have been Google's replacement for Sharepoint, Lotus Notes, and systems like that, and it looked like it was on track for that. Incremental changes to GMail are not going to cut it.

    With killing Wave, Google killed something that could have become quite important for them in the future. And they also killed the good will and trust of a lot of developers and users.

    Google should have given Wave three years, not three months, of general availability.

  6. technology for other apps by Ubertech · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I think this is one instance where Google's limited release method failed spectacularly. When they started to release Wave, I had a bunch of people in mind to collaborate with, but only one or two of us had it. By the time it was available to the majority of us, we had already gone back to using other means of communication, including Google's own docs. For all its potential, we ended up only having two active waves of substance. Hopefully they'll be able to incorporate some of the more interesting concepts into Gmail or Gtalk, and I think Docs already has some simultaneous editing features. So wave may live on, just not as wave.

    --
    Be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to anger.
    1. Re:technology for other apps by elysiana · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I absolutely agree; one of my biggest frustrations was trying to get people I know to join so I could try it out. By the time I got the fifth person to sign up, persons 1, 2, and 3 had gotten bored with it and didn't want to give it a shot with more people involved.

      I really think it should have been made a part of Gmail so that anyone with a Gmail account could get on the bandwagon and give it a shot, rather than expecting people to sign up for this new scary thing where they have to open *yet another* link to check each day. It's like forums - people say "I'd rather join an e-list so I can just check my email and see what's going on, instead of going to another website."

      I think it really had potential and I wish email had been like this from the beginning; but it's a *collaboration* tool. How am I supposed to really collaborate when only two people I know have joined and are willing to try it?

    2. Re:technology for other apps by Shillo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You nailed it on the head.

      Wave utterly depends on all your friends having it. At the same time, Google deployed it in the way that reliably prevented your friends from having it.

      --
      I refuse to use .sig
  7. Re:It takes 20 years by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Like the airplane?

    The powered airplane had it's first flight in December 1903, first military application in combat was 1911, mass use in warfare was 1914, so 11 years for it.

    Atomic weapons, patented 1934, first test July 16 1945, first combat use August 6 1945, mass production 1946.

    Radar, first operational radar system 1935, widespread use 1940.

  8. KDE 4 by gmuslera · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Probably was being too radical more than the initial stability problems and bugs what hurt the grow that KDE was having by the time the version 4 was introduced. Still, as was basically "the" direction to follow with the entire platform (you could leave it going to gnome, stay with kde 3.x while all the apps move forward, or adapt to the new approach) it survived, and now is growing (not having hard numbers of gnome, kde and other linux desktops, but i think it went that way)

    1. Re:KDE 4 by CarpetShark · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Nope. KDE 4 failed because the core developers saw themselves as smarter than their users. They saw KDE4 as a hobby project that they did for their own personal challenge; because they knew the code, they knew what it needed to become, users' needs (and expressed preferences) be damned.

  9. Wave's problems were about control and lack of it by npcole · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Google did a great job creating an open protocol. But they made two mistakes:

    1. They were not open enough. Although they had suggested that people would be able to build their own clients (and demoed a curses based client) they never opened an API for writing a wave client. They wanted it to be a flagship web application - but just as people like all sorts of different clients for email (even if many now like web clients), they would probably have liked client choice for wave - especially if 3rd party clients had shown waves along side email and the like.

    2. They were too open. Their programming model for wave (web-hosted applications with read and write access to your wave) had huge security implications. It was not clear from the UI who would have access to your data and when.

    Both of these were things that slowed adoption of wave.

  10. Wave fails if bad; but revolutionary change works by theNAM666 · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Google Wave stands or fails on its features and merits. And the Wave idea is actually incrementally seeping in across the Google suite of products, so the original article is simply... silly (stupid!).

    In regards to the original topic, "Revolutionary" change, especially in software, is often remarkably... effective in sweeping away the ghosts of the past which weigh upon the minds of the present.

    As example, a gem from the days of Wang which I just came across:

    As an example of this strategy, a frustrated developer wrote Wang’s second generation e-mail system (Wang Office) over a long weekend. In his view–and he was right–the official spec meetings were taking too long. So he decided to cut through the bullshit and just code the thing (he’d designed Wang’s first generation e-mail system, Mailway, so he knew what he was doing). He sent out the new code to several large accounts, they loved it, and started calling headquarters asking, “We have the checkbook out–how do we buy this great e-mail system?” Back at headquarters, everyone (except for Steve) was going, “Huh, what are you talking about?” Once management realized that (1) customers wanted to buy it now and (2) doing it the “official” way would take another 18 months, they swallowed their pride, shot the official project, and gave Steve a small official slap while privately lauding his initiative.

    /me files Matt Asay in the [bullshit|?|clueless|lost|confused] category.

  11. Error in title by heffrey · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Should have been, "Google Wave and the difficulty of flogging stuff that's shit"

  12. Wave was actually interesting by CarpetShark · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If you used it as a chat program then you misused it and shouldn't be suprised that it failed as a chat program. It was supposed to give people a way to collaborate on documents and projects.

    Are you sure about that?

    My impression was that it was intended to be a replacement for email, im, and other realtime communication systems on the net. It wasn't an app to help with projects or conversations; it was a protocol/server platform for messaging, just like the SMTP protocol and mailserver that makes up email, but more flexible. I think the idea was to replace email, IM, web forums, twitter, etc. all with one flexible, scalable platform that could handle new kinds of data, provide gateways to disparate systems (connect your IM to your SMS, or your webcam to your audio-only phone, for instance), and to make it all expandable by bots which could do automated processing of messages.

    It actually could have been very cool, but it was too big for the PITIFUL amount of weight google threw behind it. They didn't believe in their product. If they had, they would have built an exchange-killing open source mail/groupware server on top of it, which was fully backwards-compatible with Email, IM (including MSN as part of the exchange-killing thing), etc.

    THAT needed to be a radical product launch. None of this beta crap; a SOLID, powerful, game-changing release of free server code for everyone to install and use. Where the gradual change comes in is integrating their translation engine to make global communication possible, integrating google voice, integrating reader, and generally taking the world by storm by combining all their existing products into one great solution that had ZERO competition.

    Now that would have been radical. Launching a half-baked idea with a horrible web-ui and some code for a cut-down version that no one cared enough to look at? Not so much.

  13. Re: New Is Wonderful by s1sfx · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I see no reason to discourage either radical new hardware nor radical new software. It will flower or perish on its own merits.

    Couldn't agree more! There is way too much "sticking a tail on it and calling it a weasel" going on anyway and way not enough REAL innovation. Which creates all these super-clumsy, over-inflated monstrosities that don't even do the job they're supposed to be doing properly any longer. Einstein said "When the solution is simple, God is smiling." That's real genius, nothing else will do!

    --

    Love without logic is insanity. And vice versa.
  14. Google What? by gutbunny · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I spend 8+ hours a day programming in front of 3 screens with about 10 tabs open in each and I've never even heard of it. Maybe, just maybe, that's why it failed.

  15. It didn't fail because it was "radical." by Spewns · · Score: 2, Insightful

    1. It failed because it had bad user interface design. There's nothing radical about that. In fact, it's all too common in projects run by most hackers and code monkeys aiming to make a "cool engineering project." The difference between those projects and Google Wave is there are people crammed up Google's bum, willing to call Google developers visionary geniuses whose efforts are beyond what mere mortals can comprehend instead of lambasting them as they would anyone else for lacking usability in their software.

    2. More importantly, it failed because Google intentionally made it fail. It was axed in less than three months of being public. Something very weird happened there, but who knows if we'll ever really know why.

    3. The best, most successful advancements in computing were done in leaps and bounds, not the safe, incremental nonsense brought on by the commercialization of computing in the 80's.

  16. BS, Wave failed because it sucked by gig · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Are you telling me an iPhone isn't radical? A desktop Web browser with a display 1/4 the pixels of the original Web browser and 1/8th the size, no mouse, no keyboard, no windows (the document floats inside the viewport), and holistic zooming is not radical? Yes, it is radical, but it is also usable.

    With Wave, Google got blinded by how pretty it is under the hood and forgot to design a user interface. Wave should have looked like Microsoft Word v5.1, it should have shown the user "replace your Word, Email, and Content Management System publishing workflow with me." Have you seen how a company puts up a typical Web page? Word documents going around in email, eventually being pasted into a CMS, it is a joke. If MS Office didn't suck it would have had Wave-like features by now and no CMS would be needed by Office users.

    Google needs humility. People think Apple is arrogant because they are great, but the truth is, they are great because they are humble. They did only one phone, and it took them 4-5 years to do it, working away totally in secret, iterating and testing and innovating. If Google was not so impressed with whatever they poop out, they would actually finish projects and make usable and successful products.

    Even in ads, why did Apple have to do iAds? Why didn't Google offer ads that don't look like shit, ads that take advantage of HTML5?

    How has Search improved in the past 5 years? How has it been made easier for the 90% of users who do not know how to use all the options like -term and site:foo.com and will never know that?

    So call a failure a failure. Wave is a failure.

       

    1. Re:BS, Wave failed because it sucked by LordLucless · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Are you telling me an iPhone isn't radical? A desktop Web browser with a display 1/4 the pixels of the original Web browser and 1/8th the size, no mouse, no keyboard, no windows (the document floats inside the viewport), and holistic zooming is not radical?

      Actually, yes. It's good, useful, and a successful product, but it's not radical. Web browsers have been done before. Small form factors have been done before. Touchscreens have been done before. Apple takes things, integrates them well, polishes them up and makes them work better than almost anyone else.

      But it's still not radical. I looked at the iPhone and thought "I've never seen this done so well before". I didn't think "I've never seen this done before".

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    2. Re:BS, Wave failed because it sucked by mjwx · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Are you telling me an iPhone isn't radical?

      Yes.

      All those things you mentioned, have been done before. Firefox 1 had the same kind of zooming as the Iphone, but no one used it as it was never needed.

      I'm sorry you've been sucked into that delusion that the Iphone is somehow new or even unique.

      Now wave failed because Google 1. didn't push it enough. 2. didn't distribute it enough. There was not enough incentive for a significant community to form, nor for uptake in the private sector. I'm still waiting for a replacement for Microsoft Exchange so I can get away from the Windows Server System completely. Wave was our best chance for that. I don't see Apple providing an alternative to Microsoft's best piece of engineering.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.