Justice Department Seeks Ebonics Experts

In addition to helping decipher their Lil Wayne albums, the Justice Department is seeking Ebonics experts to help monitor, translate and transcribe wire tapped conversations. The DEA wants to fill nine full time positions. From the article: "A maximum of nine Ebonics experts will work with the Drug Enforcement Administration’s Atlanta field division, where the linguists, after obtaining a 'DEA Sensitive' security clearance, will help investigators decipher the results of 'telephonic monitoring of court ordered nonconsensual intercepts, consensual listening devices, and other media.'”

Comments

That's not the professional term

[Beryllium Sphere(tm)]

Linguists say "African-American Vernacular English".

What does it say about our society if a group we need to integrate is so isolated it's developing an incompatible dialect?

Re:That's not the professional term

[Anonymous Coward]

It says said group does not want to be assimilated and would instead prefer retaining certain unique cultural and linguistic elements.

Re:That's not the professional term

[WiglyWorm]

s3r10usLY, t3h 1MPl1c4T10NS 0f 4 Su8CUltur3 D3V3L0p1N' 1t's 0wN l4n9U493 R S3R10USLY d1sTur81n'. truLy 4M3r1c4 h4S F41L3d tH3Z3 c1T1Z3ns.

Re:That's not the professional term

[at_slashdot]

"it's developing an incompatible dialect" -- this is not a recent development, I interpret "it's developing" as "now", while actually the A-A vernacular has been developing for centuries with most of its characteristic features probably established long time ago.

Re:That's not the professional term

[dkleinsc]

So-called "Standard English" and AAVE are mutually comprehensible languages, and always have been. Even in Airplane!, where they're deliberately exaggerating the differences for comic effect, you can understand the meaning of "My momma no raise no dummies, I dug her rap!" perfectly well.

Another way of thinking about it: which is easier for your average Standard English speaker to understand: AAVE or a cell phone contract?

Re:That's not the professional term

[snowgirl]

What does it say about our society if a group we need to integrate is so isolated it's developing an incompatible dialect?

Not "is developing", "has developed".

And it says nothing at all... separated groups will develop separate dialects. The issue of "dialect" even to the point of unintelligibility has been a pervasive issue throughout Europe in the modern age. America (all of it) is so new, that separate unintelligible dialects are rare due to everyone having such a recent base language to develop from.

Re:That's not the professional term

[hsthompson69]

AFAIK, this kind of thing happens all over the place. Pidgin in Hawaii, Creole in Louisiana...most localities have slang, dialects and accents that can be terribly confusing for outsiders. I'd bet even with the "African-American Vernacular English" you've got slang variations between regions.

Part of the problem here is that speaking proper english is often seen as "selling out", and any attempts to crawl out of poverty or to get educated are harshly treated by peers. With groups that consider their suffering a badge of pride, and dissuade others from escaping the cycles of poverty and violence often associated with those groups, it's really difficult to make any headway. It may not be politically correct to mention, but a lot of the damage done in impoverished communities is self inflicted.

Re:That's not the professional term

[ISoldat53]

Do they have a name for NASCARonics? I can't understand a thing they say.

Re:That's not the professional term

[snowgirl]

"Proper english" is a misnomer. The proper way to say it is, "Speaking English in the dialect of power is often seen as 'selling out'."

There is nothing more "proper" or "correct" about Standard American English as opposed to AAVE. Both have their own (ofttimes overlapping) rules of grammar and vocabulary.

Re:That's not the professional term

[AltairDusk]

The sad thing here is I read and understood that sentence on the first try...

Re:That's not the professional term

[hedwards]

Indeed, however some of the dialects down south are less comprehensible. Cajuns have their own language which is a challenge to say the least for people that aren't familiar with it. But even the relatively easy to understand AAVE does have disadvantages and does carry with it a limitation on gainful employment in some sectors, unless the individual is able to use standard English or whatever dialect the local well to do use.

Re:That's not the professional term

[HelioWalton]

Is it a bad sign that I read that just as easily as English?

Re:That's not the professional term

[BassMan449]

I hope not because otherwise all of /. is officially a lost cause.

Re:That's not the professional term

[snowgirl]

No! It's a good thing! Now all we need is a comfy government job translating teh interwebs!

*ahem* "intarwebs"... you get a D.

Re:That's not the professional term

[snowgirl]

Call it the dialect of majority if you want propriety.

Afrikaans was not the "language of the majority" in South Africa, yet it remained the "language of power".

I spoke correctly, and used the pedantically correct term.

Re:That's not the professional term

[snowgirl]

Ever notice how "professional terms" just get really long and add hyphens everywhere? I just call it the "black accent" and leave it at that. And since I know someone's thinking it, no that's not being racist. Racism implies that I implied something derogatory towards them. I haven't. Don't mind the people; the accent is just difficult to understand, just like any other strong accent.

Ok, accepting your definition of "racism", it's not racist. It's still factually wrong though.

AAVE has different mood, tenses, and aspects on its verbs, some of which are not expressible in Standard American English.

It is a "dialect", not an "accent". An accent is a different way of pronouncing words. For instance, the British speak a different dialect of English from Americans, but if a British person were to say a sentence with American word choice, they would still pronounce it in a British Accent.

Likewise, one can pronounce Standard American English with an AAVE accent, but "they ain't be doin' that."

Re:That's not the professional term

[oodaloop]

Blagosphere FTW

Re:That's not the professional term

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, and the Amish need to GTFO and start their own country somewhere where it's still 1600. And the Welsh and Scots need to GTFO of the UK, and the Quebecois need to GTFO of Canada. (Wait, they want that already, and Canada won't let them.) And white folks need to GTFO out of America since they won't assimilate the native cultures. Basically, everybody needs to GTFO out of everywhere.. And maybe live in orbiting space bubbles or some shit.

  I have a song for you! Everybody, sing along!

  o/~ YOU ARE! AN IDIOT! o/~

Re:That's not the professional term

[WiglyWorm]

Not really. leetspeak is just character substitution with letters or numbers that look like the original word. It is still English as we know it and just requires the mental gymnastics to realize the substitute characters.

10 years ago, I'd have agreed with you. However, leetspeak has invented new words - perversions of standard english words in the same vein as ebonics - acronyms, and entire phrases to its vocabulary list. N00b, pwnd (i always pronounce this with a hard P, don't you?), kekeke, pr0n, h4x0r, sUx0r...

Re:That's not the professional term

[hsthompson69]

I understand the semantic argument you're making, using the term "dialect of power" instead of "proper" in order to symmetrically oppose any positive connotations of "proper", but this kind of argument is the kind of intellectualism that actually keeps people from escaping the poverty and violence of "non-power" subcultures.

Both have their own (ofttimes overlapping) rules of grammar and vocabulary.

I would submit that Standard American English has clearly codified rules, and AAVE has merely observations of the language in action, at best. Since AAVE is something that is taught without little in the way of literacy (that is to say, it is a predominantly oral tradition), it is difficult to equate it to something like Standard American English.

There is nothing more "proper" or "correct" about Standard American English

But there is something much more useful about Standard American English - it is the key to education, employment, and as you so cleverly put it, "power". Now perhaps the escape of poverty is not "proper" or "correct", and I accept your critique of my use of the term "proper" - but surely you must agree that learning Standard American English is beneficial on a myriad number of levels, and those subcultures that denigrate learning it are inflicting harm upon themselves.

Re:That's not the professional term

[Monkeedude1212]

What is it with this attitude towards people of differing languages?

Did you not see the XKCD comic where the guy is bitching about how if people don't want to learn English, they should leave the country, and then the girl behind him starts speaking Cherokee?

It's incredibly hypocritical to claim that YOU have any more heritage or culture than African Americans, after all, some of them are 3rd of 4th Generation, some Great Grandparents brought over by slave trades and such. Does that make them less of a citizen somehow, being born and raised in America when their ancestors were forced here?

Its one thing if "a certain group not assimilating" means a direct opposal of the laws and regulations in the country that was set forth by a democratic system. THEN you can tell those people to GTFO.

Its another thing entirely if "not assimilating" means they want to preserve their heritage or speak their own language or whatever. Last time I checked, not speaking American* in America was not a crime.

*PS, do you guys actually call it American? Don't get me wrong, its your call and everything, I'm not one to interfere with your culture and all. It just seems really cheesey, as if American is so different from all other Englishes that we couldn't possibly understand you.

Re:That's not the professional term

[Americano]

I think that's exactly the point he was trying to make - the characterization of AAVE & "Standard English" as "incompatible" dialects is probably a little overblown, when people are less likely to understand a contract written in "standard english" than they are to somebody speaking a vernacular form.

Re:That's not the professional term

[robot256]

But this is a democracy, and in a democracy power is always held by the majority! Sure, maybe the majority is only 20% of the population, but they're still the majority of ...er ...important people? ;)

Re:That's not the professional term

[dynamic_cast]

Dre Got The Fuck Out.

Re:That's not the professional term

[snowgirl]

"Codified rules"? You mean the arbitrary laws that prescriptivists continue to attempt to impose on speakers despite all indications that these rules have no logical or meaningful basis?

Like double negatives, split infinitives, or dangling prepositions?

These "codified rules" are not actually a part of Standard American English. They are instead artificially imposed rules for a specific subset of language use.

But there is something much more useful about Standard American English - it is the key to education, employment, and as you so cleverly put it, "power". ... but surely you must agree that learning Standard American English is beneficial on a myriad number of levels, and those subcultures that denigrate learning it are inflicting harm upon themselves.

I wish I could take credit for it, but the linguistic term is "language of power" or "dialect of power". And I do agree with your assessment. An individual has a significantly better chance in life learning the language/dialect of power.

However, the moral assertions applied about subcultures that actively discourage learning the language of power is something best left to people who study ethics, and not individuals like me, who study language.

Clearly individuals are better off learning the language of power, but that should never justify the connotation that the language of power is "better". "More useful" perhaps, but I would categorically reject any depictions of an ethically or aesthetically superior position.

And "utility" has its own weights... knowing how to cook is far more useful than not knowing how to cook, yet few people actually learn it. Thus ethically considerations cannot be unequivocally implied from utility.

Demanding that a subculture learn SAE, is the same as demanding that every subculture of America be, or at least practice Christianity.

Re:That's not the professional term

[snowgirl]

Saying "2+2=5" is proper mathematical syntax, however it is factually incorrect.

Saying that blacks don't speak properly is a factually incorrect statement.

Your insane ranting does nothing to change this.

Re:That's not the professional term

[fiannaFailMan]

It's not a black/white thing - it's a subculture thing. In the UK, don't you guys have regions where they speak in thick accents....Cockney? I'm not sure exactly what street slang and subcultures exist in the UK, but I would assume they do, even if they aren't aligned the same way as in the US.

Accents vary from city to city and town to town, sometimes 30 miles seeing a huge change in dialect, particularly near coastal cities where there were outside influences historically. For example (and this is my theory) Newcastle's accent is heavily influenced by Scandinavia since that part of what is now England was once ruled by the Danes.

The point I'm making is that accents in the UK vary by region, not by ethnic group. A black person living in Newcastle will have the same 'geordie' accent as whites in the same city. I black man living in Liverpool will have a 'scouse' accent just like a white scouser.

Re:That's not the professional term

[shutdown -p now]

Quebecois need to GTFO of Canada. (Wait, they want that already, and Canada won't let them.)

Actually, the Supreme Court of Canada ruled that, while Quebec cannot secede unilaterally, it is not inseparable, and should the majority in it vote for independence in a referendum, the federal government cannot deny them the right to secede outright, and shall negotiate the precise terms of separation with the Quebec government.

So all they need now is a successful referendum - and in the two they had so far, the majority was not in favor of separation, albeit by a margin of less than 1% in the most recent one.

Re:That's not the professional term

[shoehornjob]

It's incredibly hypocritical to claim that YOU have any more heritage or culture than African Americans

This has nothing to do with heritage or culture. Everyone should feel free to keep their cultural identity. In my opinion that's one of the things that makes America great. But when you move to another country to live you should make some attempt to learn to speak the language.

Re:That's not the professional term

[Anonymous Coward]

There's a big difference with Black "Culture" in America and your examples is that this group is entirely artificial, put itself apart from "whitey" simply to defy integration. All the groups you mentioned have distinctive cultures that arose from fully established functioning societies. This culture could simply not survive if it had to establish it's own laws and societal constructs instead of suckling at the teat of wellfare and distributors of crime and violence. Example: compare blacks born in America versus blacks born in Africa versus blacks born in the Caribbean.

There is a whole generation of black adults that are collectively spitting in the faces of those who have sufferred and endured so much to ensure their freedom. A whole generation of black adults that calls anyone successful with their genotype as "Uncle Tom". A whole generation of black adults that glamorizes raping bitches, drinking fourties, and shooting their rivals above science and philosophy and the greater good.

Willfully ignoring this makes YOU the idiot.

Re:That's not the professional term

[Grishnakh]

The thing you're missing about the jive-speakers is that they don't have a historical claim on their "language" or "culture". These things were created in the last few decades only, not some type of historical holdover. It's not like the Scots wanting to preserve Scots Gaelic and wearing kilts, things that go back many centuries or more.

Basically, it's a certain economic class of people trying to differentiate themselves. It would be like a bunch of southern rednecks making up their own version of English (even more different than Southern dialect), and whining about "preserving" their "historic culture" of driving big pick-up trucks and having tractor pulls, monster truck rallies, and "professional wrestling" events.

The black people in America aren't really even black; they (and a lot of the white people too) are mixed-race. A huge portion of the white American population has a black person in their family tree somewhere, and a lot have a Native American in there too. Black people are the same way; there's white people in most of their family trees, which is why many are so light-skinned compared to real Africans. Here in America, most of us are mutts (and this is a good thing, genetically speaking; purebred animals always have too many genetic problems).

Trying to "preserve" Ebonics is like trying to "preserve" Klingon, or argue about it from a historical viewpoint. There's nothing historical about Ebonics, it's just a collection of modern slang used by one socioeconomic group.

And no, we don't call our language American, but it is a different dialect, with different word usage, different spellings, different pronunciations, etc. There's many dialects of English: UK, American, Indian, South African, Australian, etc. They're all different from each other.

Re:That's not the professional term

[sjames]

True enough, but do you know anyone who insists on speaking leet for job interviews, court, and with their grandmother even after it has clearly caused a difficulty in communication?

Leet is merely a sort of slang.

Re:That's not the professional term

[snowgirl]

Life isn't fair. Get over it. Having dozens of separate dialects and languages in one nation is impractical and unworkable.

So, the Netherlands is unworkable? The UK is unworkable?

Funny, I didn't get the memo.

Re:That's not the professional term

[Estanislao Mart�nez]

Wrong. I don't think many people are demanding that anyone learn SAE; they just don't want to hear any complaints when people who refuse to learn and speak SAE can't get a job, can't talk to anyone, etc.

The problem with this claim is that right here in the discussion for this Slashdot article you're going to find, far more often than what you're saying here, claims that people who speak AAVE do so out of willful ignorance and that use of AAVE automatically marks a person negatively. Those folks are, effectively, demanding that African-Americans speak SAE all the time, or else be judged negatively. There's precious little allowance for the idea that AAVE might be the appropriate speech variety in many contexts, or that maybe one ought to not make such a big fucking deal of the fact that a bunch of underprivileged people in this country speak a dialect different than yours.

Re:That's not the professional term

[Grishnakh]

or that maybe one ought to not make such a big fucking deal of the fact that a bunch of underprivileged people in this country speak a dialect different than yours.

If they don't speak the same language, they can't get a decent job. Then, they stay poor, and liberal whiners claim that these people are "underprivileged".

Sorry, but you can't have it both ways. If you want to speak a different language from the de facto language of economy in your nation, then you can't complain when you don't get to take part in the economy and raise yourself out of poverty. The tools are all there: remember, public education is free in this country (in SAE of course).

The reason it's a "big deal" is because the AAVE-speakers (and their liberal apologists) are always complaining about being "marginalized", "underprivileged", etc. Well, they're doing it to themselves. And yes, AAVE speakers do it willfully. I've been around many black people who could switch automatically between "white English" and jive depending on who they were talking to. Again, public education is free in this country, and it's done in SAE.

I grew up in the South, where people speak their own dialect. Speaking with a Southern accent is NOT a route to success in anywhere outside the South (or in many places inside it), as most Southerners will tell you. As someone more interested in being successful rather than "preserving" some dialect, I learned to speak proper SAE growing up, and never bothered with any regional accents. The way people spoke on national TV was the way I learned to speak, and made sure I spoke. I never complained about this.

Re:That's not the professional term

[Estanislao Mart�nez]

If they don't speak the same language, they can't get a decent job. Then, they stay poor, and liberal whiners claim that these people are "underprivileged". Sorry, but you can't have it both ways. If you want to speak a different language from the de facto language of economy in your nation, then you can't complain when you don't get to take part in the economy and raise yourself out of poverty.

I have to refer you to this post I made a bit ago, and also to this one. Basically, your assumption that African-Americans don't speak the "same language" as the rest of the nation is an arbitrary rejection and stigmatization of a dialect that's really not very different from Standard English. The range of speech varieties that are "de facto" considered standard language is not a logically or linguistically preordained fact; it is pure social prejudice.

Spanish speakers, for example, routinely accept dialectal differences that are comparable to those between SAE and AAVE. The verbal tense-aspect systems of Spain and Latin America are different, yet in Spain they don't think that, say, García Márquez speaks and writes substandard Spanish because of it.

Re:That's not the professional term

[indiechild]

So I take it you speak Cherokee?

Re:That's not the professional term

[benedict]

Rap's been around for decades, too!

Not that I couldn't predict it, but the ignorance on display in this thread is mind-blowing. Especially from a group of people which likes to think it has exceptional intelligence and command of facts.

Re:That's not the professional term

[snowgirl]

I see, I didn't catch that you didn't think it was English.

Well, it's difficult to classify exactly what it is. It is a form of English, in the same way that English and German are both Germanic languages. Similarly, a Russian Blue is still a cat, but it's definitely not a Calico.

So you'd have it be treated as a separate language altogether? We'd have DMV forms written in English, Spanish, Vietnamese, Korean, Ebonics?

"Languages are dialects with an army and a navy". It's difficult to draw the line between what is and is not a language. However, if a language/dialect is sufficiently different so as to make it difficult to properly fill out a DMV form, then yes, we should provide them in that dialect/language.

You really think it has the legitimacy of an actual language? Does hillbilly or cajun get the same status in your book?

"Legitimacy" is retarded sometimes. Depending on your opinion about the legitimacy of things, either only Taiwan or China exist. This legitimacy of only one China denies reality, where
de facto, there are two.

My opinions on the matter do not matter, de facto, AAVE presents difficulties of communication, and is sufficiently different enough to deserve consideration.

I was not aware that it had rules or grammar in actual use, always figured it was just a slang way of talking. Are you sure that these "rules" and "grammar" aren't just being applied by linguists to help yourselves make sense of something that doesn't?

Linguists are actually quite easily able to detect the lack of grammar and syntax. These are widely known as pigeons. AAVE is not simply "slang" or a "lazy way of speaking". In fact, it has some aspects of verbs that must be expressed in English with circumlocution.

Not enough mod points...

[strokerace]

There aren't enough mod points in the universe to mod down all the trolls that are going to be posting on this topic.

Airplane!

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, stewardess, I speak jive: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhJDvI3gUO8

awesome!

[larry bagina]

all those years of wigger training is finally going to pay off! YOU HEAR THAT MOM?!?!?!?!

Couldn't help it...

[John Pfeiffer]

ENGLISH, motherfucker. DO YOU SPEAK IT?

Re:Couldn't help it...

[Anonymous Coward]

What?

Re:Couldn't help it...

[cosm]

Say 'what' again, I dare you, I double dare you motherfucker, say what one more Goddamn time!

I'm curious...

[Mongoose Disciple]

First, how does the Justice Department, as part of their interviewing process, figure out if someone legitimately has this skill or is faking it? This can't be that far from being the linguistic equivalent of a non-technical company trying to hire a programmer or IT person with a particular kind of expertise. In the tech world those situations are dailywtf's waiting to happen -- it can't be much better in this one.

Second, if you had this expertise, how would you keep it current? Spend an hour a day riding public transportation in Oakland?

Re:I'm curious...

[PCM2]

First, how does the Justice Department, as part of their interviewing process, figure out if someone legitimately has this skill or is faking it?

Have them translate something. It's not like this skill does not exist already. You have an expert write up a dialogue (or get one from a wire tap) and then have applicants decipher it. If they're right, they're in.

Second, if you had this expertise, how would you keep it current? Spend an hour a day riding public transportation in Oakland?

Probably a little more than that, but essentially, yeah. You need to speak to the people in question on a regular basis. Social workers might be good candidates.

Re:I'm curious...

[Eristone]

Second, if you had this expertise, how would you keep it current? Spend an hour a day riding public transportation in Oakland?

Probably a little more than that, but essentially, yeah. You need to speak to the people in question on a regular basis. Social workers might be good candidates.

Black: Check.
Work Downtown Oakland: Check.
Ride Public Transport: Check.
For One Hour: (roundtrip) Check.
Ability to Translate: Sporadic at best. Happily references UrbanDictionary as needed.

With all do respect to some posters (and not the ones I'm replying to here) - skin pigmentation does not denote linguistic ability or accents.

Is there an N-word exemption by contract?

[SlappyBastard]

Because, ya know, as a white dude I'd hate to lose my job translating negrospeak because I used the N-word.

Is it really that hard to understand negrospeak? Or are all the old guys who the DoJ just starting fossilize? Will this lead to black street gangs using Valley Girl Talk to throw the police off their trail?

Re:Is there an N-word exemption by contract?

[bsDaemon]

As a white guy, you're probably more likely to get in trouble for referring to it as "negrospeak" in casual conversation. I'm pretty sure that's not a technical term... outside of Amos and Andy.

Herein follow a few terms to help you get started

[MRe_nl]

on your merry way towards the ve-nak-u-lar

"Damn- that shit is DOPE".
That is a wonderful concept/object/action.
"Can't FADE that".
I am unable to comprehend or assimilate that concept at this time.
"Shante ain't havin' it".
This is not something that Shante will allow to occur.
"Homey- Boo was dropping PHAT beats".
Our friend Boo was playing some wonderful music.
"YO!- Let me GAFFLE that BLUNT"!
Might I be able to indulge in your marijuana cigarette?
"JIMMY was on and I was HITTIN' it"!
I had in my possession a condom, which was used in my engagement of sexual activity.

http://www.ebonics-translator.com/ebonics_101.php

Re:Wow...

[hedwards]

It's derived from the dialects of the south, but that doesn't mean that it's likely to bear much of a resemblance. I mean after all, down south for a really long time there were limitations on education, employment and just general mixing of the races. Suggesting that a linguistic grouping would be derived in a straightforward way is ignorant. If you don't believe me, try comparing the dialects of Korean between the speakers from the North and the speakers from the South and you'd get the picture.

AAVE is a fairly recent development

[kurisuto]

Actually, it appears that AAVE is a product of the Great Northern Migration of African-Americans in the early 20th century. Prior to that time, there was little to no distinction between the dialects of southern whites and southern blacks.

The pieces of evidence for this claim include:

• Phonograph recordings made in the 1930's of former slaves
• Diaries and letters written by semi-literate slaves and former slaves in the 19th century. Since the writers were semi-literate, the spelling is a better indication of the pronunciation than standard spelling would be.

• Something which linguists call "age grading". If you take speakers of AAVE today and compare younger speakers with older speakers, the younger speakers actually have a higher percentage occurrence of the distinctive features of AAVE. This suggests that AAVE is becoming increasingly distinct from standard American English over time.

There are other pieces of evidence as well, but those are some of the important ones.

Re:AAVE is a fairly recent development

[kurisuto]

To answer your question about age grading, you have to look at a population at more than one point in time. In cases where this has been done (e.g. speakers of central American Spanish), what we find is that young adults have the highest percentage of the incoming feature (higher than both children and older adults). As those same young adults get older, their use of the incoming feature does decline some, but not down to the levels of the previous generation. The 40-year-olds today have a higher percentage of the incoming variant than the 40-year-olds twenty years ago.

Variants in speech can serve as social markers which you use to identify yourself as a member of a group. As a guess, I imagine that the slight decline in use of the incoming variant as you get older has less to do with "learning standard English better", and more to do with it not being quite as important to sound cool as you get older. As a 40-year-old, you probably still wear clothes which identify you as a member of a certain group, but you probably don't dress in quite as trendy a way as you did when you were 20.

Recognize the autonomy of African-Americans

[hessian]

This is an excellent development as it further legitimizes the idea that:

(a) African-Americans are a separate group that should not be assimilated;
(b) African-Americans have their own culture, values and heritage that is distinct from the majority;
(c) African-Americans are best treated as a self-governing cultural community within the political entity "USA".

In other words, it's a step forward for true African-American autonomy, and an implicit recognition of Pan-Nationalism.

Re:Recognize the autonomy of African-Americans

[snowgirl]

a) They are a separate group, but being so does not mean that they "should not be assimilated".
b) They do have their own culture, values and heritage that is distinct from the majority... this is fact. Ignoring it, or refusing it does not make it less of a fact.
c) What what?

Ah crap, I'm arguing with a nut job conspiracist... :(

Translation:

[twoallbeefpatties]

In other words, we have a dialect of English that is generally spoken in the inner-city areas that have a predominance of crime, and we need someone who understands this dialect to help us make sure that we understand what's being talked about when we intercept criminals speaking that way. You dig?

African Americans - not people of African Decent

[AnonymousClown]

I know plenty of Africans (People from Nigeria and there about - real African Americans) and people of African decent (also with a history of slavery no less) who speak perfect English and are also highly educated - have Dr. as a title many times. If you call them "African Americans" they take it as an insult, btw. And then there are educated American blacks who speak perfectly.

It's more of a sub set of our black population that doesn't want to learn or get educated; which also happens to be the part of the population with the highest crime rate.

And I find it interesting, when I'm being spoken to in AAVE (*rolls eyes at the PCness*) and find the speech incomprehensible, usually I hear very clearly, "What, you don't understand English?" - they're fucking with the white boy.

Re:Needed one when watching The Wire

[Anonymous Coward]

LJ doesnt talk ebonics. He's jamaican, he speaks what is called "Jamaican Patois". Badman is even worse, I can understand maybe a word in ever 10, or so.

Re:Needed one when watching The Wire

[wjousts]

Actually, Little Jacob is impossible to understand even with subtitles.

Re:African Americans - not people of African Decen

[snowgirl]

It's more of a sub set of our black population that doesn't want to learn or get educated; which also happens to be the part of the population with the highest crime rate.

"Subset" is one word.

Now, the interesting thing here, is that people who are disadvantaged in life, regardless of will or desire, tend to have the highest crime rates. They're also the most likely to be least educated.

Funny how people attribute these disadvantaged as being "lazy" or lacking desire, when in reality, they're simply given a shitty hand to play.

What

[SnarfQuest]

Is there really such a language as ebonics, or can any random grouping of black slang be thrown together and be called ebonics? Can any two "ebonics speakers" living across the country understand each other?

I cannot find out if "ebonics" as a real language exists, or if the name just gets slapped on any black-related slang. I.e. would it be called ebonics if a black guy used valley-girl slang? "Hey ho-me, like gag me with a spoon, bro!"

Unofficial History of Ebonics

[Naked Jaybird]

In Oakland, CA, ebonics originated because some educators were making a point that language was evolving in some communities, and the education system must recognize that the common language young people are speaking is changing. The goal of these educators was to get the educational funding they need to teach these students English and English grammar, not to legitimatize yet another language the California educational system would have to support.

Re:Unofficial History of Ebonics

[Naked Jaybird]

Evolution is defined as a 'process of change in a certain direction.' Whether its evolving for the better or worse is not the point being made.

Re:Needed one when watching The Wire

[shoehornjob]

I don't think he was just speaking ebonics. He sounded a lot like a guy I used to work with who spoke Jamaican Patois http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamaican_Patois It's a subtle mix of the two maybe.

Obligitory Clip from Airplane!

[goofyspouse]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymMBEwtRZOg

I HAS a Dream

[theshowmecanuck]

I saw this poster in 1999 on a fellow's cubical wall at a place where the company I worked for was putting in a software system, in Rhode Island. The blog where the picture is hosted from provides the text below the picture. It was commissioned by The National Head Start Association. For those that it matters to, the person who put up the poster was black. It was no surprise when I saw it for the first time, as I found previously that he placed a lot of emphasis on being able to communicate effectively with those around him.

Your politically correct stance does not help people. In order to overcome prejudices it is best to focus on our similarities with others rather than on our differences. Once that is done, the differences don't matter as much. We cannot focus on anything if we cannot communicate. It doesn't help communication when one community works so hard on creating a wholly new dialect, if not language, just so that they can be more different.

In case the site is not available, or for those that don't care to click, here is the text:

"I HAS A DREAM" written over the image of the man. Below the image was the following text:

"Does this bother you? It should. We've spent over 400 years fighting for the right to have a voice. Is this how we'll use it? More importantly, is this how we'll teach our children to use it? If we expect more of them, we must not throw our hands in the air and agree with those who say our children cannot be taught. By now, you've probably heard about Ebonics (aka black [sic] English). And if you think it's become a controversy because white America doesn't want us messing with their precious language, don't. White America couldn't care less what we do to segregate ourselves.

The fact is language is power. And we can't take that power away from our children with Ebonics. Would Dr. Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, and all the others who paid the price of obtaining our voice with the currency of their lives embrace this? If you haven't used your voice lately, consider this an invitation."

("SPEAK OUT AGAINST EBONICS", The National Head Start Association, 1651 Prince Street, Alexandria, VA 22314, The New York Times, October 9, 1998, A19 [National Edition])

Re:I HAS a Dream

[Grishnakh]

Exactly. If you're a minority living among a majority, and you create a new language to separate yourself, you're only going to succeed in separating yourself from them even more. Then, you won't get any jobs and will be dirt-poor.

Balkanism is not a path to success.

Orbiting Space Bubble FTW!

[pentalive]

I, for one, would love to live in an Orbiting Space Bubble!

As long as there are supply runs...

Re:Tangential comment: Quebec Separation

[shutdown -p now]

The Québécois already voted 60% in favour of separation in 1995

60% of francophones did. But anglophone residents of Quebec are also entitled to voice their opinion on independence of the province which has been their home for many years now. Why do you disregard their votes?

Re:African Americans - not people of African Decen

[Omestes]

In the neighborhood I used to live in, there was an older black guy down the road. He was a truck driver lacking even most of a high school education. He spoke standard English better than most of the other people on the block. His pre-teen children (just the boys, not the girl) spoke "AAVE", and you could hear him screaming at them from time to time to act educated, he hated the fact that he worked hard to get where he was (coming from a very poor southern background) and his children sounded like they strived to be an "underclass", or poor idiotic street thugs.

I have two points with this anecdote, not speaking AAVE isn't related to higher education or income. Second being that it isn't like standard English, where it is a language passed down generationally. Most speakers of AAVE don't have parents who speak AAVE. Its nothing more than a youth culture thing gone wrong, and now for some reason we're all supposed to ignore the fact that it is an invented language that has only existed for a generation, and is largely based on a single youth culture. If, in a generation, we decide that text-speak (ami rite?), and LOLcat are valid languages, and we're discriminatory for not speaking it. I for one welcome the future language of the upcoming 4Chan-Americans.