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Can an Open Source Map Project Make Money?
Roblimo writes "Bing and Mapquest both use output from OpenStreetMap.org. Mapquest supports the project with money for equipment and access to the code they've written to integrate OSM's work with their display. Bing? They just take from the project and do nothing for it in return. This may be okay in a legal sense, but it is a seriously nekulturny way to behave. Even so, having Microsoft's Bing as a reference might help the project's founder make money. They've put a lot of work into this project, and it's doing a lot of people a lot of good, so they certainly deserve some sort of payback, either direct or indirect. They have a few ideas about how they might legitimately earn a few bucks from their project while remaining free software purists. Do you have any ideas, yourself, about how they might turn a few bucks from OSM?"
There are plenty of commercial uses of OSM already, and some are making quite enough money out of it. One that I personally use is offmaps.com, but that's obviously barely the tip of the iceberg.
But the question is whether OSM can make money out of it or not. Considering CloudMade are paying 40 employees, I guess they *do* can make money out of it, by "providing APIs for web sites, applications, and devices to use the rendered map data." (source is Wikipedia, probably the CloudMade website would provide more details.)
OSM is an example of success: open geospatial data and business profit.
Animoog.org
Nice ad you got there, Jim.
I thought I'd check out how exactly Bing was using OSM and it would appear that they are offering it as an alternative layer:
Bing Maps Adds OpenStreetMap
If you follow the link to the maps it says "(c) OpenStreetMap (and) contributors, CC-BY".
I think the reason they're doing it is to show off serving map data from the Azure CDN and the APIs of Bing itself. More an interesting side project really.
Really, either hire some coders to produce a game, or come to some sort of partnership/sponsorship agreement for developing a game, where they promote the game (say, on every 100th map served) and handle sales.
So I take it you aren't mad whenever someone slams a door in your face, after all you didn't sign a contract that he wouldn't. You aren't pissed off when someone takes the next taxi cab in the rain when you are left to stand out without an umbrella? You aren't mad when some guy takes a massive dump in a public toilet and you have to use it? You don't get angry when someone cuts in line?
You have no legal right for someone to open the door for you, you don't have a piece of paper assuring that you will get the next taxi, you don't have a "Bill of Rights of the Bathroom", and you don't have assurance of your place in most lines.
But that doesn't mean you aren't an asshole if you do these things.
Thats the point that these developers are trying to say, that essentially Microsoft was an asshole. Few people seek for legal action after having these things happen to them, but they still have the right to say the person who did that to them was a jerk.
Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
I expect a lot of BSD developers will step in here and call you an idiot for assuming you know what their motives are...
Except EVERYONE can go back to the original (free) code, and do with it whatever they want. You're right that it doesn't push the developer's personal agenda on everyone who wants to redistribute it, but that's not freedom, it's a different type of proprietary.
Proprietary software does the same thing...
Right. You are REQUIRED to contribute your changes to the public. Using your own metric: the freedom extends to only a depth of 0.
Now this is just stupid. The BSDs are all open source, under a single license. The fact that they aren't all unified isn't because somebody close-up the source code. It's the LSB that keeps one distro of Linux to another, largely compatible, NOT the GPL.
No, if it wanted to do that, it would simply require the original source code be provided. The GPL wants to FORCE you to provide any changes YOU made, to others.
Are you suggesting it's somehow easier to get the source code for (eg.) GNU tar than it is for BSD tar? I fail to see how that's even possible.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
Your post started at (Score:1), so apparently your karma isn't so great. Try not writing so many drunken troll posts ;)
I used to sign in and had the karma bonus but used to post at (Score:1) because I wanted to participate in discussion based on reason rather than speak louder based on reputation.
Its like tipping, nowhere does it say that you -must- tip (unless the tip is included with the bill) but its still common courtesy.
Unless you are in Japan where it is insulting, or Europe where service is included.
I'm part of the OpenStreetMap sysadmin team... We think it is great that Bing is using our open map data! Hell them using our data is great promotion for our project. We currently have no need to ask them for anything back and I'm sure if we tapped them, they would be supportive. Our project is about creating great open map data, not about becoming rich. Is Bing working on improve OpenStreetMap's open data further? Quite likely. They win, we win.
If you truly don't want to put strings in, then public domain it, and put no other conditions or disclaimers in it at all.
I have this system:
You get a tip for exceptional service.
For normal service you get nothing, but you get a regular customer.
For lousy service, I take note and go to a different bar next time.
I don't particularly care if people smile or not. Fake smiles are creepy.
Please mod parent up. In many states in the US it's legal to pay waitstaff less (in some cases, less than a third) of minimum wage. The reason? Tips. Which are taxed as income.
Mind you, I've been in places where tips were "pooled". That is, all the tips for the whole day go in one big jar, and everyone (including management-- evil!) gets their share. So, the tip you leave or don't leave may not go to the person that deserved it.
I know plenty of bartenders that can pull in 200-300 bucks a night... but I know a lot of waitresses that bust their ass for what ends up being about 4 bucks an hour.
So tip the help!
Well said.
GPL is a way to force your ideology on others - whether it's a "good" ideology or not is open to discussion. BSD is a way to not force your ideology on others.
Which one allows more freedoms is pretty obvious.
That's true. GPL's purpose is to get more code out there, and it doesn't care if you agree or not. While BSD may provide more freedoms for the code provided, GPL provides more free code.
The GPL wants to FORCE you to provide any changes YOU made, to others.
I would argue that it's worse than that, because it's not only changes to the original code. Even if you link your code against a GPLed library you must provide your own code. I fail to see how writing a speech recognition system that uses readline somehow makes the speech engine "changes to readline", but maybe I'm just an idiot.
In this case, FSF are idiots. I'm with Larry Rosen...
According to an article in the Linux Journal, Lawrence Rosen (IP law specialist, and OSI general counsel) argues that the method of linking is mostly irrelevant to the question about whether a piece of software is a derivative work; more important is the question about whether the software was intended to interface with client software and/or libraries[41]. He states, "The primary indication of whether a new program is a derivative work is whether the source code of the original program was used [in a copy-paste sense], modified, translated or otherwise changed in any way to create the new program. If not, then I would argue that it is not a derivative work,"[41] and lists numerous other points regarding intent, bundling, and linkage mechanism. He further argues on his firm's website[42] that such "market-based" factors are more important than the linking technique.
the above is from the GPL entry on wikipedia, but he said as much in his Open Source Licensing book.
No, it's not your fault - it's the fault of the unethical jackass who took a personal conversation and made a public post of it.
Just make a http://flattr.com/ button so people can donate easily.
You're exactly right. I think the problem is that so many people here are so focused on the profits that come to someone unrelated from this open source project. But that's so not the point of open source. It's about making the best product that we can; it's about making a product that is open for anyone to read the source of; it's about security through many eyes; it's about all of us having the ability to make changes to the code, to customize it. Open source isn't about profits. But, look, as soon as money gets involved, suddenly we want a piece of it, apparently. And we complain about slow adoption of open source software. Maybe it's because it's an enormous bait-and-switch?! We say, 'here, have this free software!' and then we bitterly complain because the people we gave it to aren't showering us with gifts.
But, to return to your point: yes, there is a contract. It's the software license under which the material was released. If there was some expectation of reciprocation, then it should have been written in to the license.
So how do I make thousands then? You see the difference here to MAFIAA is that the individual isn't selling their "stolen" music for profit. Here, Microsoft is selling their Bing service with their "stolen" maps. The quotes are deliberately there because in neither case is the product actually stolen.
Adittionaly, in the case of MAFIAA, if you're found with "stolen" or even suspected of having "stolen" product you're arrested jailed and fined inordinate amounts of cash, more than you'd make in a lifetime. Will Microsoft be fined more than their lifetime revenue? No. They won't even be looked askance at by the authorities.
Next time you get on your high horse about MAFIAA being lambasted, remember this.
And stop sucking on the corporate cock.
How about some government support ? Governments already have to have accurate maps on hand and should have the data. So pitch it to them as a way to both outsource the hosting of the data and make it freely and easily available for their citizens and businesses. As a plus they could then easily integrate it into their online offerings too, which in my experience often are lacking in the map area. If data doesn't exist yet in digital form (or in an incompatible form) then the openstreetmap community could be leveraged to digitize it.
If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error.
If you don't tip, but come back regularly in some places they will become angry with you and spit in your food (or worse)...
Plus your regular custom helps the business owner, not the individual server...
It's also possible to have great food and lousy service, or great service and lousy food... It's quite difficult to tip the chef in most places. I wouldn't necessarily discount a place based on one instance of poor service, if you go again someone else might serve you better.
I fully agree with you about fake smiles being creepy, i don't want to be served by someone who is forcing themselves to appear cheerful... I understand that they are at work and don't feel particularly cheerful, i just want a polite and efficient service.
I don't like having to fight to get the server's attention...
I don't want to wait ages to get the bill...
If i'm eating alone, i don't want to wait longer than necessary for the food.
If i'm eating lunch, chances are there is a time limit (lunch break) and i need to leave fairly quickly, i can't wait 20 minutes for a starter, another 30 for the main and then another 20 for the bill to arrive and another 15 before they take the payment...
I don't need patronising looks from the server because i order too much... Although moving us to a bigger table might be useful, i like to sample lots of different foods.
I don't want the waiter to come back 2 minutes after bringing the food to ask if everything is ok... it's rude to talk with your mouth full which it invariably will be 2 minutes after receiving food, and if i wasn't satisfied i would have said something myself already.
Also, i found service in germany pretty good, the staff were usually very efficient and helpful, usually didn't exhibit fake cheeriness (they are at work after all), and appreciated when you made an effort to speak german (even tho they would quickly detect your accent and reply in english).
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Skipping your place in the ordered queue of customers by slipping money to the barman?
Maybe bars are different there, but in a busy bar here there is no line/queue. There's a mass of people huddled around the bar trying to get the bartender's attention. They pick random people from the crowd as they grab their attention to service. Good tipping doesn't mean that they're breaking line - because there IS no line - just that when they're scanning the crowd they'll pick you out quickly.
I've always found this commercial to be pretty accurate:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpFALUuNWwc
In really busy bars things move fast. Heck at some if you order the same thing more than a few times you're stuck with that for the rest of the night. For example last big bachelor party I was at I ordered 3 screwdrivers before it got really busy. On my 4th drink I was going to switch off to a Rum and Coke. The bartender saw me incoming with money and (given that I'm a good tipper) had my drink ready in a flash - but she fixed another screwdriver just assuming that that's what I was drinking for the evening. Went ahead and stuck with it.
"People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain