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EPA Proposes Grading System For Car Fuel Economy

suraj.sun writes with this snippet from CNET: "The EPA and Department of Transportation on Monday proposed a fuel economy label overhaul to reflect how electric and alternative fuel vehicles stack up against gasoline passenger vehicles. ... The changed label, mandated by the 2007 energy law, includes the same information on city and highway miles per gallon and estimated driving costs based on 15,000 miles a year now available. But the new labels add more comparative information, rating cars on mileage, greenhouse gas contribution, and other air pollutants from tailpipe emissions. That means that consumers can look at a label to see how one vehicle compares to all available vehicles, rather than only cars in a specific class. One label proposes grades, ranging from an A-plus to a D. There are no failing grades, since vehicles need to comply with the Clean Air Act."

18 of 272 comments (clear)

  1. Giant letter? by WalksOnDirt · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Just how stupid do you have to be to need a giant letter grade on a car? I hope that version doesn't fly.

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    a,e,i,o,u and sometimes w and y (at be if of up cwm by)
    1. Re:Giant letter? by cappp · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I sometimes feel bad for the guys in charge, it's apparently impossible to please people. We're normally clamouring for more information, operate our markets with the assumption of perfectly informed agents, run democracies that were conceived presuming some degree of voter knowledge, and heap disdain on the apparently ignorant. But a government agency tries to help consumers make decent choices by undermining the ability of companies to easily obscure certain basic information and they're told people want less info of a specific type. We’re a capricious lot.

      I had a look at the two proposed sheets and thought they were nicely thorough, explained the basic assumptions, and presented the info in an easily comparable fashion. Guess it takes all sorts.

    2. Re:Giant letter? by TubeSteak · · Score: 3, Funny

      I sometimes feel bad for the guys in charge, it's apparently impossible to please people. We're normally clamouring for more information, operate our markets with the assumption of perfectly informed agents, run democracies that were conceived presuming some degree of voter knowledge, and heap disdain on the apparently ignorant.

      If you walk into a dealership ready to spend >$10,000 based on a window sticker and some pamphlets, I've got a perpetual motion machine to sell you.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    3. Re:Giant letter? by Rei · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It gets worse: they rate electric cars in miles per gallon. "Yeah, just fill 'er up with five gallons of electricity. Premium, please!" The EPA gathered together some focus group of yokels and found that they didn't know what a kilowatt hour was, and so decided to put everything into "gallons", which is an absurd measure for electricity.

      --
      "... even though he sins so much that people cast him out of demons."
    4. Re:Giant letter? by blueg3 · · Score: 3, Informative

      That's weird, because the label they show in TFA is clearly for an electric car, and it lists the following figures:
      kW-hrs/100 miles, MPGe city, MPGe highway

      As I'm sure you're well aware, kW-hr/100 mi is not a rating in miles per gallon. The other two figures are miles per gallon equivalent and are to facilitate comparison across fuel types.

    5. Re:Giant letter? by hairyfeet · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The basic problem is we humans, for all our talk of rationality, are about the most irrational "gut driven" creatures to ever draw breath. Hell I know I should probably care that my 99 Ford Ranger gets a whole 14 MPG, but you know what? I LIKE my Ranger. It's paid for, it has a nice stereo with MP3 player, hauls heavy loads without a bit of trouble (even though I mainly haul groceries in it, it is nice to be able to haul equipment when I need to), looks like new, rides great, etc.

      Would having a bunch of MPG info have changed my mind? Probably not, even though it would have been nice to have, because I've always been a truck guy and I liked the way it looked and drove. Same as my GF always had "beep beep" cars until she had to take a Dodge Ram 4x4 as a loaner when her car was in the shop, fell in love with being higher off the ground (she is a short little thing) and not having to worry about getting stuck when she visits her dad on the mountain, and ended up trading in her car and keeping the Ram. Would have knowing the gas mileage difference made her keep the beep beep? Again probably not, as she says the Ram is the first vehicle she has ever had that just "seems built for her" and it makes her happy.

      Sure we can talk a good game, but at least here in the USA we buy our vehicles on things like feel, looks, and comfort more than a bunch of numbers on a sticker. Numbers? We don't need no steenkin numbers!

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      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    6. Re:Giant letter? by captainpanic · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I sometimes feel bad for the guys in charge, it's apparently impossible to please people. We're normally clamouring for more information, operate our markets with the assumption of perfectly informed agents, run democracies that were conceived presuming some degree of voter knowledge, and heap disdain on the apparently ignorant. But a government agency tries to help consumers make decent choices by undermining the ability of companies to easily obscure certain basic information and they're told people want less info of a specific type. We’re a capricious lot.

      I had a look at the two proposed sheets and thought they were nicely thorough, explained the basic assumptions, and presented the info in an easily comparable fashion. Guess it takes all sorts.

      I wish I could mod that reply higher than +5.

      The problem with people is exactly that: those who disagree will always shout the loudest... too little info, and the smart kids demand more. Too much info, all the lazy bastards complain that it's too complicated.
      And our poor politicians listen to those who shout. Try to please those who shout (especially when it comes to insignificant things that can get a lot of media attention)... Although we've never been wealthier, never been healthier, politicians must think the average citizen in a Western country is deeply unhappy.

      Anyway, the easy way out of this is: Include a very short and simple "executive summary" for the lazy and the dumb. Then add the extended list of facts below that for those who are interested.

    7. Re:Giant letter? by xaxa · · Score: 4, Informative

      The sticker says "over five years, this vehicle saves $6,900 compared to average". The small print says that's based on 15000 miles/year, and an average of 20-23 mi/gal (21.5mi/gal = 4.65 gal/100mi).

      Presumably, your Ford Ranger would have had a sticker like "over five years, this vehicle costs $5,200 more than average" (based on your 14mi/gal (7.14gal/100mi) figure, and $2.78/gal). Would that have influenced your decision? You can rent something that hauls heavy loads many times for $5,200, for example. (And presumably insurance, parts etc cost more on the bigger and more powerful car).

      (FWIW, with fuel costs here the $5,200 would become $12,306. You could buy a small car with the saving... and since that one uses 47mi/gal (2.12gal/100mi) you'd save $5300 (or $12500 here) compared to average [I know US gallons are different to the Imperial gallons given on that page, I converted them for you.]).

  2. How is this any better? by pinqkandi · · Score: 3, Insightful

    They already have a 1 to 10 scale on the stickers, how is that any more difficult than an A+ through D system?

  3. Misleading CO2 by Antony+T+Curtis · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The CO2 emission numbers would be misleading for battery electric and plug-in hybrids because it only states the tailpipe emissions.

    Example... A battery-electric vehicle may use 34 KW/h of electricity per 100 miles. According to official data, in the USA, about 0.6 Kg of CO2 is emitted for every KW/h of electricity consumed. So for every 100 miles, about 20 Kg of CO2 is released into the atmosphere. So the data should state that 200g of CO2 is emitted per mile, not the 0g it currently states.

    Ignoring other sources of CO2 emission and only looking at tailpipe emissions are misleading for technology which does not have a tailpipe. For example, a battery electric vehicle which uses 40 KW/h of electricity per 100 miles would release more CO2 into the atmosphere than many small gasoline vehicles.

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  4. Re:It's all BS by Cinder6 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Honest question here. Why is gallons/100 miles preferable? It's always seemed backwards and clumsy to me.

    With gal/100mi, it's more complicated to figure out how much gas you need to go X miles (with miles/gallon, it's simply X/mileage), and it also provides a more useful number when comparing cars. Sure, Car A might need 2.5 gallons/100mi and Car B needs 3 gallons/100mi, but that tells you less about the actual mileage (40 vs. 33.33).

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    If you can't convince them, convict them.
  5. That IS bad by zippthorne · · Score: 4, Insightful

    battery-electric vehicle may use 34 KW/h of electricity

    That IS bad. After only 3 years of engine-time, you'll need a full Nuke plant to power just *one* of those.

    per 100 miles

    Criminey! Assuming it averages about 50mph, that means it'll only take 23 hours to require a 1GW dedicated power plant, and it only gets worse from there!

    --
    Can you be Even More Awesome?!
  6. Suggestions to EPA by wildsurf · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I submitted a comment to the EPA suggesting that the "Gallons / 100 Miles" number be more prominent relative to MPG. (Converting to metric is a lost cause, unfortunately.)

    I also suggested that they add "Gallons SAVED per 100 miles" relative to an average car in its class. This statistic can be surprising: switching from a 33mpg Corolla to a 50mpg Prius saves one gallon per 100 miles, but switching from a 10mpg Hummer to a 14mpg Land Rover saves three gallons per 100 miles driven.

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    Weeks of coding saves hours of planning.
  7. Re:It's all BS by rnelsonee · · Score: 4, Informative

    Most people argue GPM is better for exactly those reasons - it's easier to compare. For example, you have two cars - one that gets 10 mpg and one that gets 33 mpg. You can replace the 10 mpg with one that gets 11 mpg, or replace the 33 mpg car with one that gets 45 mpg. Quick, which saves more gas?:

    A) replace the 10 mpg with 11 mpg
    B) replace the 33 mpg with 45 mpg

    The answer is A. The first changes from 10 gallons per 100 miles to 9 gallons per 100 miles - 1 gallon saved every hundred miles. Option B changes from 3 gallons per 100 miles to 2.2 gallons per 100 miles - less than a gallon saved (per 100 miles). It's completely non-intuitive if you use the backwards "mpg" measurement.

    If we just used consumption instead of MPG, we wouldn't have this problem.

  8. Re:It's all BS by blueg3 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    With gallons/mile, fuel efficiency is linear instead of inverse-linear.

  9. Problem with that.... by mark-t · · Score: 5, Interesting

    If a car performs really well, it might get an A...

    But then a few years down the road, improved technology could make that A rating in 2010 look like a C- or D in 2015, and other "A" rated cars come out that perform far better. Yet the 2010 car still has the "A" rating... so it isn't fairly compared to newer cars.

  10. Underwriters Laboratories = safety testing by Kupfernigk · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Unless UL has changed its mandate, its role is to safety test products (hence its name - it was set up by insurance underwriters to help control insurance costs.)

    However, the mere fact that a coffee machine or a breadmaker is safe doesn't actually make it any use for making coffee or baking bread - in fact, in the UK, makers of nonfunctioning "water treatment" products market them as WRAS approved - which is purely safety testing.

    Any commercially sponsored test is flawed. Did you ever see a car magazine give a BMW a bad review? Usually they give critical reviews of second tier manufacturers or small cars, which have near-zero "marketing" budgets, and criticise very expensive cars (that their readers can't afford and whose makers don't advertise with them). I'm happy to pay taxes to an organisation that won't go out of business by telling the truth.

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    From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
  11. Re:I call BS.kg by TheRaven64 · · Score: 3, Informative

    Mod parent funny. Or maybe not; posting on Slashdot and not knowing that N/m and Nm^-1 are the same thing is more tragic than funny.

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    I am TheRaven on Soylent News