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Canon Develops 8 X 8 Inch Digital CMOS Sensor

dh003i writes "Canon has developed a 8 x 8 inch CMOS digital sensor. It will be able to capture an image with 1/100th the light intensity required by a DSLR and will be able to record video at 60 fps in lighting half the intensity of moonlight. There are already many excellent quality lenses designed to cover 8 x 10 inches, although Canon may develop some of their own designed specifically for their requirements."

209 comments

  1. what is the spectral response? by dnix · · Score: 1

    what is the spectral response?

    1. Re:what is the spectral response? by commodore64_love · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Perfect for capturing the Sorority girls in the next dorm over that turn-off the lights, but never close the curtains. "No honey I can't see you, but my camera can."

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    2. Re:what is the spectral response? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've heard it's Double Shlong!

    3. Re:what is the spectral response? by rangerfan558 · · Score: 1

      ah Q-Link, where I met my first wife, and the time just before the net went to hell in a handbasket.

  2. Coming soon? by Bryansix · · Score: 3, Informative

    The article did not explain if this would be incorporated into a camera anytime soon. Also I wonder how it compares to the Hasselblad digital backs and cameras. http://www.hasselbladusa.com/

    1. Re:Coming soon? by LostCluster · · Score: 0, Troll

      Canon doesn't just make cameras, they also make copy/fax systems that are already big enough that an 8 inches squared sensor would fit nicely.

    2. Re:Coming soon? by blhack · · Score: 3, Informative

      What you're saying is absolutely insane, I'm sorry.

      The sensor in my copier costs, what, $10? Maybe?

      You're talking about replacing that with something that would likely cost over $100,000 as well as well as the optics to support it.

      The sensor in a fax machine and the sensor in a camera are *totally* different things.

      --
      NewslilySocial News. No lolcats allowed.
    3. Re:Coming soon? by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

      Yeah if this is cheaper than comparable CCDs it could be very good for amateur astronomers.

    4. Re:Coming soon? by Kristopeit,+M.+D. · · Score: 1

      a lot of the perceived quality in the hasselblad digital backs is in the operating system that lays on top of the sensor, and the hardware user interface and the lens interface... more data is going to mean higher latency and response times...

    5. Re:Coming soon? by Kristopeit,+M.+D. · · Score: 1

      but then you wouldn't have to wait for the sensor to sweep across the page. you must have more time to waste than me.

    6. Re:Coming soon? by shawb · · Score: 5, Informative

      Bigger CCD does not necessarily mean higher pixel counts. In this application it means that each pixel will receive more photons per exposure, allowing for much better low light photography (I.E. less grainy.) Making larger CCDs previously meant higher latency (and therefore more motion blur or related distortion, in addition to lower framerate in video applications) due to limits in the speed of transfer of electrons in the medium. The innovative bit here is that Canon apparently came up with a circuit design that eliminates this latency.

      --
      I'll never make that mistake again, reading the experts' opinions. - Feynman
    7. Re:Coming soon? by mlts · · Score: 1

      I still think it is cool that cameras made 20-30 years ago from Hasselblad can get digital imaging backs put on with 39 megapixels worth of resolution.

    8. Re:Coming soon? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're talking about replacing that with something that would likely cost over $100,000 as well as well as the optics to support it.

      When that does happen, it'l be called iCopier.

    9. Re:Coming soon? by Kristopeit,+M.+D. · · Score: 1
      i'd hope canon wouldn't brag about a 8"x8" sensor if it wasn't already as dense as existing sensors.

      adding more data and decreasing latency almost surely implies some sort of multiplexing is going on, and that the "sensor" is really a grid of smaller sensors packaged together.

    10. Re:Coming soon? by shawb · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The point of the larger sensor is low light photography, NOT more data or higher pixel counts. Each "pixel" on the sensor itself is physically larger so they can more accurately report the light levels hitting them without introducing grain.

      This sensor isn't for consumer point and click cameras or anything like that... this will be for things like scientific instruments such as telescopes, microscopes, nocturnal wildlife and deep ocean photography (and of course for military and homeland security applications.)

      --
      I'll never make that mistake again, reading the experts' opinions. - Feynman
    11. Re:Coming soon? by Kristopeit,+M.+D. · · Score: 1

      so why is the headline describing the size of the multiplexed grid and not the individual specs per pixel? it would seem that would be the relevant information.

    12. Re:Coming soon? by symbolset · · Score: 1

      One chip that takes a whole 300mm wafer? I'm thinking it's cheap enough for satellite astronomers.

      --
      Help stamp out iliturcy.
    13. Re:Coming soon? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Old film aerial cameras shoot 9x9 inch film. The outer part of the film was typically black, perhaps up to an inch total dark area. This maybe could be used to retrofit those aerial cameras. If this does use an electronic shutter that would greatly simplify these old cameras and take away the moving parts that are wearing out (film rollers and mechanical shutter).

    14. Re:Coming soon? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      This is not a CCD, it is a CMOS image sensor. Big difference.

    15. Re:Coming soon? by Joce640k · · Score: 1

      The only people who'll want this are wildlife documentary makers and people with really expensive security systems. I doubt it will ever be seen in a consumer device (or even a 'prosumer' device).

      --
      No sig today...
    16. Re:Coming soon? by KZigurs · · Score: 1

      Yes, a couple one-off designs founded by the tax payer.
      As for how it compares? Once you don't have to worry about mass production, I'm sure it blows hasselblad away (btw - who manufactures sensors for hasselblad?)

    17. Re:Coming soon? by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 1

      8x8 inches is well within the arena of large format... It's MUCH larger than the medium format sensors used in Hassy digitals.

      I think most of the Hassy digitals are to true medium format what APS-C is to 35mm format - e.g. the sensors used (likely Dalsa or Kodak sensors) are much larger than full frame 35mm, but not even as large as 6x4.5 format. (Note, 645 is 6x4.5 centimeters, not inches. Some MF cameras are 6x7cm.)

      The type of camera you'd see this in is more akin to large format view cameras like Arca-Swiss.

      --
      retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
    18. Re:Coming soon? by dh003i · · Score: 1

      Maybe the sensor will have larger photosites than others, maybe not. It could have 10 micron sized sites.

    19. Re:Coming soon? by shawb · · Score: 1

      Mental hiccup - I stand corrected.

      --
      I'll never make that mistake again, reading the experts' opinions. - Feynman
    20. Re:Coming soon? by Bassman59 · · Score: 1

      Will this be in a camera? No. Good god no.

      Have they used their 120 megapixel APS-H sized sensor? Have they used the 50 megapixel one before that?

      This is just money down the toilet. It's development to make the executives feel good. It's R&D masturbation.

      I love Canon, I love their sensors and cameras but they are and the path to bankruptcy. Quick make the employees stand not sit make them and run everywhere so they look busy!

      You DO realize that image sensors are used for more than just consumer digital cameras, right?

    21. Re:Coming soon? by Bassman59 · · Score: 1

      The only people who'll want this are wildlife documentary makers and people with really expensive security systems. I doubt it will ever be seen in a consumer device (or even a 'prosumer' device).

      Of course it won't be in a consumer device, or in a professional photographer's kit. It'll find application in scientific instrumentation.

    22. Re:Coming soon? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What you're saying is absolutely insane

      Uhh... insanity is relative (only.)

  3. Cam whoring by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This sensor is going to revolutionize cam whoring. Today's cameras just don't show the nose pores, and pubic hair stubble like this will.
    I can't wait

    1. Re:Cam whoring by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      8x8? Sigh, Back to Commodore-64 porn. "I don't know if it's a tit, but close enough, I'm horny!"

  4. no resolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    it's be great if it were something lame like 6 megapixel

    1. Re:no resolution by magarity · · Score: 4, Insightful

      it's be great if it were something lame like 6 megapixel
       
      Why is 6 mp lame? Do you know the Hubble is something like .8 mp and it takes amazing pictures because the sensor is huge. Like this thing.

    2. Re:no resolution by Bryansix · · Score: 4, Informative

      Actually, they use software to merge the photos. Otherwise the photos would suck.

    3. Re:no resolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      even 640 by 480 would be pretty amazing if it was low-noise, 60 FPS, in moonlight.
      I can't be arsed to post-process everything like NASA can.

    4. Re:no resolution by m2shariy · · Score: 1

      Yes, 6 Mp is a lot. It is three 1920x1080 monitor screens.

    5. Re:no resolution by Zocalo · · Score: 1

      Not sure about the Hubble's image processing, but I had some dealings with satellite images several years ago. Our images were created from a combination of a high resolution monochrome image to provide detail then a sequence of lower resolution colour images potentially ranging from UV through to IR. The images were then combined, the colour spectrum compressed and/or shifted to fit within the range visible to the human eye before being output as high-resolution (for the time) colour images.

      --
      UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
    6. Re:no resolution by Bryansix · · Score: 1

      Well for video yeah. For photos, not so much. However photomerging in Photoshop is a two step process. Select the photos, and hit OK. It does all the work for you.

    7. Re:no resolution by Bryansix · · Score: 0

      Ahem. Remember that you have to account for the Bayseian Filter in front of the sensor. So that kicks it down to about one 1920x1080 screen. Then take into account noise. Then account for lens abberations. So yeah, uhm I'd like a higher res thank you.

    8. Re:no resolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's an AMAZING full HD sensor! What are you talking about?!?!

    9. Re:no resolution by shams42 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Ahem. Remember that you have to account for the Bayseian Filter in front of the sensor.

      It's not a "Bayseian filter" [sic], it's a Bayer matrix.

    10. Re:no resolution by Whiternoise · · Score: 2, Informative

      That's not the whole story. The actual size of the HST sensor is something like 45mm square (or maybe diagonally). Hubble takes amazing pictures for a few reasons. 1. It's got an 8 foot (2.4m) collecting mirror, so its light gathering prowess is amazing compared to normal cameras - like most telescopes. This means that the sensor is only effective because Hubble can direct so much light onto it. 2. It tracks the sky - like motorised ground based telescopes it is incredibly good at pointing in the same place for extended periods of time. So it can take longer exposures to get more light in. The Deep Field was taken with exposure times of roughly 1200 seconds, for instance. I assume it could expose for longer if it was at a Lagrange point and didn't have to contend with orbiting the Earth. 3. It's in space.. so there is very little in the way of light pollution (besides the sun!) and no atmospheric diffraction limit. Presumably they also make "panoramas" of the images to make them appear larger in print. The famous "Pillars of Heaven" shot is certainly not one image.

    11. Re:no resolution by treeves · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And how is a higher resolution sensor going to undo lens aberrations? That would be nice.

      --
      ...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
    12. Re:no resolution by Bryansix · · Score: 1

      The higher res gives you the data to allow the software to do that. Canon's Digital Photo Profesional already does a lot of this automatically.

    13. Re:no resolution by hedwards · · Score: 2, Informative

      That's not true. Canon's professional cameras have larger sensors combined with higher pixel counts, however, once you hit a certain point where you're out resolving the lens, you're not going to get a whole lot out of adding more pixels without enlarging the area by more than that. Which is why the full frame 35mm format will always be capable of having more pixels than the APC-S or 4/3 formats will, at some point you hit the point of out resolving the lens at which point you're only option is to go larger. No technical wizardry in chip or in the camera hardware will ever make up for that.

      Same goes for lens aberrations of various sorts, you can make them less obvious, but at the end of the day, you're still sacrificing image quality and counting on the camera system to do the right thing. But you're still going to lose detail and introduce other image problems.

    14. Re:no resolution by Kristopeit,+M.+D. · · Score: 1
      yeah, and in a field of black with white spots, i'm sure the merging automation never makes mistakes.

      the merge process has to be built into the photo taking process to work with any level of confidence.

    15. Re:no resolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Bayer filter doesn't change the resolution, the current N megapixel cameras don't have Nx3 sensors, they use the colored data to extrapolate a full color frame at the full sensor pixel count. Also, there are 2x as many green filters as either red or blue IIRC.

    16. Re:no resolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you misunderstood. As the grandparent said, it's done in software (post), not in camera hardware. The effects of the aberrations is still recorded on the sensor, but with a known lens profile, software can remove it from the final image. Of course, this costs resolution... which is where the extra "overhead" resolution comes into play (which is what the original statement stated.) It's not unlike saying that extra resolution gives you more reach; of course it's not changing the focal length of your lens (hardware), but it gives you more ability to crop (in software).

    17. Re:no resolution by 644bd346996 · · Score: 1

      The whole point of sensors like this is that what may look to you like black with a few white dots is in fact a much more vivid image, but at intensities too low for human perception. When your sensor is capable of discriminating the differences in intensity or color between stars, stitching the exposures is very easy.

    18. Re:no resolution by Kristopeit,+M.+D. · · Score: 1

      it's not that it's very easy most of the time... it's that it isn't anywhere near perfect all of the time.

    19. Re:no resolution by robot256 · · Score: 1

      Sure, you can do anything in software if you have all the necessary information. If the software is going to take out microscopic grinding defects in every lens, then you will have to characterize each lens with science-grade calibration equipment, and record what lens, what zoom (rotation) and everything when you take the picture, so that the software can back out the aberrations after the picture is taken. This is essentially what NASA does with all their telescopes. Removing the problem in hardware with a larger CCD and lens system is much, much simpler, especially for a field photographer with a variety of lenses and configurations.

    20. Re:no resolution by lxs · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You have to take into account noise on fingernail sized sensors. On this scale at 6MP, the noise floor would be very low.

    21. Re:no resolution by Joce640k · · Score: 1

      That's why uncropped Hubble images (like this one) have black squares in the corner - the Hubble camera can't take pictures there.

      --
      No sig today...
    22. Re:no resolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      photomerging in Photoshop

      But can it run on an embedded system?

    23. Re:no resolution by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Pixel count isn't everything, especially these days.

      That's why a 6 megapixel APS-C DSLR will blow away most 10-14 megapixel point and shoots in terms of image quality.

      --
      retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
    24. Re:no resolution by Mr+Z · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If they use this for scientific work (which I imagine they might), something tells me they won't have any Bayer matrix on it, and will instead do multiple shoots with different whole-image filters, to avoid artifacts due to demosaicing.

  5. back to old style camera sizes? by magarity · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I assume this means a would-be digital Ansel Adams will need to drag around a camera the size of a bread machine? I'm not too confident the market size is large enough for anything other than highly specialized scientific equipment. I don't see large format digital cameras even for professional photographers because of what it will probably cost to produce.

    1. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by $RANDOMLUSER · · Score: 4, Informative

      For architectural photography, and many landscapes, nothing, but nothing, beats a view camera. If you take a picture of a building with a standard DSLR, the picture will look like a pyramid, because the film plane was at an angle to the building. With a view cameras, with swings and tilts, you can have the lens and film plane parallel to the walls of the building, giving you a much more natural look.

      --
      No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism. - Winston Churchill
    2. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by macraig · · Score: 1

      Hey, those lenses are dirt cheap, only $1,000 to $1,500, so how expensive can the camera be?

    3. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can do that with a standard DSLR. Using a tilt-shift lens. Granted, with a view camera that functionality is built into the body rather than having to get specialized lenses, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the sensor size.

    4. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by $RANDOMLUSER · · Score: 2, Informative

      Lenses for 8" x 10" (and 4" x 5") cameras have both the the aperture iris and shutter (which uses an adjustable mechanical clockwork) built in. Plus, they need a lot of extra film plane coverage, to allow for swings and tilts.

      --
      No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism. - Winston Churchill
    5. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by $RANDOMLUSER · · Score: 1

      Last time I looked, which waasn't that long ago, there were two DSLR tilt-shift lenses on the market, they cost about $3,000, and the coverage they had was unimpressive.

      --
      No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism. - Winston Churchill
    6. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by timeOday · · Score: 1

      I too noticed the lenses seem bizarrely cheap - I guess because the ones listed have relatively short focal lengths and high f-stop numbers (in other words, they're little). For $1500 you get a 300 mm f5.6. Since the receptor is huge, 300mm would be pretty short focal length. 10 inches is 254 mm, so a 300mm lens would only be equivalent to a 35.4 mm lens for a 30mm camera. (300 * 30 / 254 = 35.4) The $9,000 lens is still only 800 mm (94.5mm focal length in 30mm equiv, which is a mild telephoto, nice for portraiture) and only opens to f/12. You would NEED a very sensitive receptor to go around shooting at f/12 all the time.

    7. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by David+Gerard · · Score: 1

      This thing takes an entire silicon wafer. Off the top of my head, I'd guess at least thousands of dollars per sufficiently defect-free 20cm x 20cm sensor. Though I suppose it depends on the resolution of the features on the sensor.

      --
      http://rocknerd.co.uk
    8. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by $RANDOMLUSER · · Score: 1

      Oh yeah, no question it's gonna cost a metric fuck-ton of money. What would be surprising (to me) is if it didn't need cooling, like most of the larger sensors do.

      --
      No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism. - Winston Churchill
    9. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by LordKronos · · Score: 4, Informative

      Last time I looked, which waasn't that long ago, there were two DSLR tilt-shift lenses on the market, they cost about $3,000, and the coverage they had was unimpressive.

      It must have been a quite a LONG time ago, because Canon has had 3 tilt-shift lenses available for years. The were released in 1991, and are still available today. A few years ago they added a 4th lens to the batch (and updated one of the old models with a
      new version). So your choices are:

      17mm f/4
      24mm f/3.5
      45mm f/2.8
      90mm f/2.8

      Also, when I checked a few years ago, the cheapest one was under $1500. Today they range from $1200 to $2200.

    10. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      while nothing beats an 8x10 view camera, even canon's new tilt-shift, the fact is that DSLR is faster and that's what clients care about. Unless you're doing fine art photography.

    11. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by TrumpetPower! · · Score: 1

      Look again.

      Canon has four tilt / shift lenses in their lineup, from $1200 to $2200, in 90mm, 45mm, 24mm, and 17mm focal lengths. I have the 24, and it’s an amazing lens. Reviewers are describing it as having the best optics of any 24mm lens made for the 135 format. Its movements are nearly unlimited. The 17 is much the same lens. The 45 and 90 are restricted to tilting and shifting on either parallel or perpendicular axes, and you need a screwdriver to switch from the one to the other. They’re also older designs and will likely be replaced sooner rather than later by ones in the style of the newer 24 and 17.

      Nikon makes some PC lenses that I’ve never known anybody to get ecstatic about; perhaps that’s what you’re thinking of? But everybody I know of who does serious stuff on Nikon is using medium format lenses with a bellows. Many do the same with Canon. At that point, you really do have a view camera with a 135-sized digital sensor.

      Also worth mentioning: the current round of “full frame” cameras generate prints with resolutions that rival those that Ansel Adams made, though of course modern large format cameras and emulsions are significantly superior. So, unless you’re planning on making door-sized prints that people will be sticking their noses into or unless you need an insanely shallow depth of field, there’s no technical reason to use film instead of digital. There are, of course, many aesthetic reasons, but that’s the artist’s choice. Up to 24 × 36, assuming impeccable technique, good glass, and all the rest, you need a loupe to tell the difference between a 5DII and large format. And, at normal viewing distances, it’s hard to tell even at twice the size.

      Cheers,

      b&

      --
      All but God can prove this sentence true.
    12. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I assume this means a would-be digital Ansel Adams will need to drag around a camera the size of a bread machine? I'm not too confident the market size is large enough for anything other than highly specialized scientific equipment.

      Ansel Adams used a 4x5 camera---large format. Had this been available in his day, he might well have used it.

    13. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by reub2000 · · Score: 1

      This is true, but perspective can very easily be fixed in photoshop.

    14. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by hedwards · · Score: 1

      That's not correct. It's much more than that. The large format cameras are far more than just the camera movements. It's the relationship between the lens, film plane and the meditative stance that one must take with film that expensive. And the time it takes to set up. Sure the camera movements are necessary, but it's the format which Ansel Adams used which was special, on top of his processing and other technical mastery. I doubt very much that he'd be using anything other than large format were he alive today.

    15. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by ffreeloader · · Score: 2, Informative

      The 35mm tilt/shift lenses provide nothing like the range of flexibility provided by a view camera.

      I've looked at both and a DSLR + tilt/shift lens is a poor substitute for a view camera if you are looking range of adjustment, quality of image, and the size of print possible without pixelation or blurring. The DSLR sensor is just too small and the 35mm tilt/shift lenses 2 axes of adjustment cannot compare with the 3 axes of adjustment available in a view camera. Plus, the view camera has a much greater range of adjustment. There's really no comparison between the two.

      --
      "while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude." de Tocqueville
    16. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by FlyingGuy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Ansel Adams used various format camera's throughout his long career. Everything from a 35mm up to and including the Polaroid 20x24 inch instant camera which he had hauled up a mountain in Yosemite to take photographs as at the time he was on retainer from Polaroid.

      His favorite was an 8 x 10 view. I know this because I was very privileged to meet the master in 1980 and actually asked him.

      To be honest I am not sure what he would think of all the new tools there are to take photographs. Much of his magic occurred in the darkroom as he meticulously used his masterful understanding of printing and printing chemistry to create breathtaking images that to this day have not been surpassed in my opinion.

      I have been a shutterbug since the early seventies and I am really not sure if you can duplicate the incredible subtleness of being able to alter the print developer just so so to render a more striking contrast or to bring out the very subtle shadow detail. I mean it is close, but I don't think it is there yet, just as digital has still yet to achieve the pure gradients that film provides so readily.

      --
      Hey KID! Yeah you, get the fuck off my lawn!
    17. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by dangitman · · Score: 1

      Lenses for 8" x 10" (and 4" x 5") cameras have both the the aperture iris and shutter (which uses an adjustable mechanical clockwork) built in.

      Not all of them do. For example, I have a Sinar 4x5" system which uses a shutter module behind the lens, so the lenses don't need built-in shutters.

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
    18. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by dangitman · · Score: 1

      I don't see large format digital cameras even for professional photographers because of what it will probably cost to produce.

      Large-format digital cameras have been available on the market (and in active commercial use) for over a decade now, so I don't see why you think it is implausible.

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
    19. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      I'm not too confident the market size is large enough for anything other than highly specialized scientific equipment. I don't see large format digital cameras even for professional photographers because of what it will probably cost to produce.

      If they can get it under $10k out the door, I suspect there will be a fair size market. If they can get it under $5k, there will be a fairly large market.
       
      Professionals aren't afraid to spend money. Nor do they shop for their gear at Wal-Mart.

    20. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by rssrss · · Score: 1

      I think you need to be more emphatic. Photography can be an art. A camera can be an artists tool like a painters brush or a sculptor's chisel.

      The cameras widely used by amateur photographers, even the most expensive class of DSLRs like the Nikon D3 and the Canon EOS-1Ds ($7K sticker, without a lens) have limitations created by the rigid geometry of the camera body, and the limited size of components.

      Large Format View Cameras simply do not have many of those limitations. The ability of the photographer to change the orientations of the film plane and the lens board and to use an extraordinary range of lenses, allow professionals (and some dedicated amateurs) to make images that cannot be made by smaller less flexible cameras. Random mentioned architectural and landscape photography, but there are many other uses such as close ups of food for advertising.

      This is not to say that view cameras are a universal panacea. You would not photograph a sporting event with one. It is to say that they are very useful tools for their purposes in skillful hands.

      --
      In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
    21. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by dh003i · · Score: 1

      I think that in many years, it might be "affordable". When 50 megapixel medium format backs cost what DSLRs now cost, look for an 8x8in sensor to cost $50k. An 8x8in sensor is almost 10 times the area of a digital medium format back...look for it to cost at least 10 times the price, or around $500,000, at least (probably more, due to wafer errors).

      I think that in many years, large format photographers (I shoot 4x5) will be interested in this, when prices are reasonable.

    22. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by plumby · · Score: 1

      You can get tilt and shift lenses for DSLRs.

    23. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by yyxx · · Score: 1

      There are tons of tilt-shift lenses for DSLRs. Most people these days don't bother, though: they correct on the computer or (even better) assemble a large number of photos into a vertical panorama. You can also remove people easily that way.

    24. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by LordKronos · · Score: 1

      I've no experience with view cameras, so I have no interest in debating anything you said. However, the point was, somebody suggested DSLRs aren't very capable for doing architectural photography, and that's not true. There are several lenses that make it perfectly suited to that type of work, and there are a ton of people doing exactly that who are perfectly satisfied with the results.

    25. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some arty farty loon always comes out with the sort of nonsense you have repeated here. They used to make similar claims to justify 35mm film over digital SLRs but digital photography has mostly left film based 35mm lying in the dust. The same will happen to larger formats.

      Artists who somehow earn a living always struggle to mystify their craft so that others can't walk in and steal their territory. The truth is, most people, given the technology, the time, and the motivation, could produce breath taking images worthy of a front page or an art gallery. Ansel Adams is famous because he had access to the equipment, was in the right place at the right time and was imaginative enough to take his opportunity when he had it. The loony art school types then follow each other's lead and simply repeat the praise and claptrap they were taught in art class. It's self perpetuating. Neither you nor I have seen the billions of other competing images which might also have been praised or included in your photography degree course. I like Ansel Adams' photographs but it didn't take a unique genius to create them.

      Take your blind, fawning, idolatry elsewhere.

    26. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by bigdaisy · · Score: 1

      the 35mm tilt/shift lenses 2 axes of adjustment cannot compare with the 3 axes of adjustment available in a view camera.

      Canon's two latest (Feb. 2009) "TS-E" lenses for 35mm cameras have 3 axes of adjustment.

    27. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But with the T&S you can shoot fast. It's very difficult to shoot fashion or street photos with a view camera, but very easy with a T&S.

    28. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by ti1ion · · Score: 1

      I don't mean to get into an argument, but Saint Ansel used something different even when he was alive. He switched from large format to medium format (various cameras, I believe). He would be using what suited his needs, if he were to be around today -- including digital. From what I have read about him, he was very enthusiastic about new photographic technologies.

    29. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      I bother because tilt and shift provides far better image quality. Photoshop doesn't correct for depth of field nor does it give you control of the focal plane.

      It also makes possible a lot of other techniques that are not possible to create with Photoshop.

    30. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by BenEnglishAtHome · · Score: 1

      To be honest I am not sure what he would think of all the new tools there are to take photographs.

      He would love the new tools.

      Toward the end of his life, Adams was interviewed and spoke about digital photography. (Yes, it existed back then.) The first pictures had come back from Mars and Adams expressed real excitement about the possibilities of the new medium.

      Adams looked at all the new tools that came along and used whatever worked. For his photography, an 8x10 view worked best back then. It's still the best tool for the job today when you want high resolution (the equivalen of hundreds of megapixels) and a reasonably long tonal range in a form factor that doesn't require a pack mule to carry. For that type of photography, digital has never "gotten there" the same way 8x10 (and larger) view cameras did a century ago.

      However, as we all see in our daily lives, digital technologies progress at an astounding rate. The idea of an 8x8 sensor that might actually sit in the back of a real honest-to-gosh full-size view camera gets me seriously pumped.

    31. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ansel Adams used a lot of different cameras, he owned a Hasselblad as well as several Leica's. Each had their own positives and negatives. To say that he would be using only large format is ridiculous because he always used the right tool for the job. Yes his most famous images were large format, but it wasn't his only medium.

    32. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      Ansel Adams viewed the process of making a print as two stages - taking the photograph and developing the print. Taking the photo was the craft and the art came during the developing process. He would often share his negatives with students in order to provide them with starting material for their development as artists.

      If you equate the prints Adams produced with the process of taking the image with a camera you are making a big mistake. His artistic contribution came during the printing process.

      I am sure that Adams would have used all the image taking tools available to him. The real question is whether Adams would have been able to achieve the same level of artistic expression in a digital print vs. a silver print.

    33. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 1

      Um, Ansel Adams did drag around a camera the size of a bread machine. I don't think anything other than large format view cameras existed back in his day.

      --
      retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
    34. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 1

      You can also find some reasonably cheap ($1000 for everything you need) TS lenses (actually tilt/shift adapters for medium format lenses and a cheap MF lens) from Russia.

      Look at ARAX Photo, for example.

      --
      retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
    35. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by dh003i · · Score: 1

      Those prices in the link I provided are probably too high, except if buying new from B&H Photo. I bought my 4x5 Linhof monorail (which came with a 150/5.6 lens) for $600. Kodak Ektar 203/7.7 $120. Nikon SW 90/4.5 wide-angle lens ~$600. Schneider Xenotar 135/3.5 ~$600. Schneider G-Claron 305/9 ~$410. I sold the 150/5.6 and 203/7.7, and now only have 3 lenses: wide-angle (90/4.5), portrait (135/3.5), and longer focal length (305/9).

      An excellent 4x5 system can be had for less than the cost of a DSLR. But you'll also need the darkslides (Lisco slides ~$10/ea for 4x5), shutter release cables, and a solid tripod and tripod head.

    36. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by Whatsmynickname · · Score: 1

      To be honest I am not sure what he would think of all the new tools there are to take photographs. Much of his magic occurred in the darkroom as he meticulously used his masterful understanding of printing and printing chemistry to create breathtaking images that to this day have not been surpassed in my opinion.

      Most of the magic either occurred under the enlarger or the timer / thermometer + his application of the zone system. Pretty much all of this can be emulated in digital by various Photoshop functions or application of traditional camera techniques and can be done without handling toxic chemicals and spending large amounts of trial and error hours in a darkroom.

      To me, the much bigger problem these days in photography is virtually all consumer cameras are getting their sensors + camera controls dumbed down to the least common denominator, cameras moving towards a homogeneous picture taking ability (instead of the good old days where each film type had vastly different unique light capturing capability, such as Fuji Velvia), and worst of all the slow disappearance of print technology and photo printer businesses which equals or even comes close to the old Cibachrome quality of color output.

      Manufacturers which at least attempted to make a sensor which had unique light capturing abilities (Fuji or Sigma) are going away. The number of sensor manufacturers are dwindling leaving us with tons of cameras which pretty much take the exact same least common denominator picture, unless you want to sink massive amounts of money for high end full frame or medium format cameras. In the good ol days, you could take great pictures without going into a mountain of debt.

      Seems like many print shops which used to cater to high quality photo printing these days are evaporating or eliminating their high end, expensive, photo printing for mass consumer baby album photo printing. Ink jets such as Epson 2200 and above coupled with the right paper can be close to Cibachrome or B&W, but the initial cost of buying all the equipment from expensive camera to expensive printer is going way way up over what the cost of a camera + enlarger used to be. Especially when you want to print larger than 12x18, the cost of a good ink jet + ink goes WAY up, and the number of places who has a LightJet or Chromira printer with good paper is getting smaller every day.

      In summary, I don't miss the "good ol days" of spending large amounts of time in the dark room, and loading tons of film in my Mamiya, but I do wonder about the ever increasing cost of creating a decent, unique looking print from a decent camera without investing a small fortune.

    37. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by Bassman59 · · Score: 1

      Oh yeah, no question it's gonna cost a metric fuck-ton of money. What would be surprising (to me) is if it didn't need cooling, like most of the larger sensors do.

      Since it's CMOS, its noise performance is naturally going to be higher than a CCD, but cooling it will still bring down the dark current.

    38. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by dh003i · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure I'd say the list prices are "cheap". They're around the price that I bought some of my Olympus 4/3rds lenses for (50/2 Macro, 14-54).

      But they're incredible values, because of what the can produce. The lenses won't be as "sharp" as say 4/3rds lenses in measured lp/mm, but they don't need to be anywhere near that sharp, because the film is so much larger.

      For landscapes, there is always a tradeoff between resolution and depth of field. There is actually a formula that determines optimum f-stop that balances defocus and diffraction, given what you want to have in focus in your image: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/fstop.html/. There are a few things that result in 4x5 cameras producing much higher image-quality than 35mm cameras or DSLRs: (1) At equivalent f-stops for DOF, large format lenses perform much closer to the diffraction limit, thus you can have have larger prints; (2) The film is so much larger, so if you have a film with the same resolution/sensitivity, the effects of 1/Rf = 1/(1/Rl + 1/Rf) aren't as degrading. You will capture far closer to the aerial resolution than you would with 35mm or DSLR.

      If you're into portraiture, 4x5 and 8x10 is great. For 4x5, many use portrait lengths of 135, 150, or 220mm (slightly shorter than normal to slightly longer than normal). Some good ones are the 135/3.5 Xenotar or 135/3.5 Carl Zeiss Planar. I got my 135/3.5 Xenotar for around $600. There is a 150/2.8 Xenotar on eBay right now for $5000 (ridiculously overpriced, as I've seen one sell for $1500 before). Yes, 135mm on 4x5 is "equivalent" to around 38mm on 35mm, if you consider the diagonal of 3.75x4.75in, a far cry normal portrait length. The rules for 35mm cameras shouldn't be blindly applied to 4x5; but if you really insist on longer lenses, there is an $5,900 Voigtlander Apo Lanthar 300/4.5 for $5,900 on eBay. However, with large format, many have found that you can get closer to the subject without having unpleasing results.

      It is worth noting that because of the incredible detail 4x5's get, a lot of 4x5 portraiture is full body shots. You can crop to H&S and still get far more detail than from even full-frame cameras. For full-body portraiture, 135 or 150 mm works (even 90mm, depending on what else you want in the shot).

      I'm working on a T8-based DIY set of softboxes to produce ~40,000 lumens total. This would allow relatively easy focus with a 305/9 lens indoors even.

    39. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by cyn1c77 · · Score: 1

      I bet professional astronomers would pay a lot of money to put this on their big telescopes. Spreading the same field of view over more pixels gives better resolution. Increased sensitivity would decrease exposure times and give better signal to noise.

      Sure, you or I as individuals won't be buying on anytime soon. But most new technological developments are made for highly-specialized scientific equipment and then trickle down to the consumer a few years later, after the device can be made more cheaply.

    40. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by oboeaaron · · Score: 1

      His favorite was an 8 x 10 view. I know this because I was very privileged to meet the master in 1980 and actually asked him.

      He once wrote that when people asked him which was his favorite camera, he answered "The largest one I can carry!"

      --
      Journey onward.
    41. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's really no comparison between the two.

      Well no shit, they're for completely different situations. You're like a guy with a bulldozer making fun of somebody for using a sledgehammer. They're both perfectly viable tools, you're only an idiot if you use them in the wrong situation.
      These things are going to be used in professional applications including film industry, they aren't going to stick them in a "standard" hand held camera, much less a point-n-shoot model. Only a complete asshat would seriously think Canon would try to put an 8inchx8inch sensor in a hand held, mass production model. Sheesh.

    42. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by yyxx · · Score: 1

      I bother because tilt and shift provides far better image quality.

      Really? You can get gigapixel quality?

      Photoshop

      Photoshop? Did I say anything about Photoshop?

      doesn't correct for depth of field nor does it give you control of the focal plane.

      Computer composition gives you arbitrary control of depth of field, including non-flat depth of field.

      It also makes possible a lot of other techniques that are not possible to create with Photoshop.

      There is nothing you can do a tilt/shift camera that can't be done better and cheaper with computational photography. (Photoshop, however, doesn't do many of those things.)

    43. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by FlyingGuy · · Score: 1

      HUGE smile on my face as I think back to that day... Yeah I think he might have said that as well, but his remarks zeroed in on the 8 x 10. I was 21 at the time and just completely star struck to just be in his presence much less being given the privilege of asking him a question.

      Back in the days when you could actually take a photography course in high school I tried SO hard to emulate his prints. I would spend hours in the school darkroom until the teacher kicked me out desperately trying to get the same results. I came sort of close a time or two but I eluded me much like the end of a rainbow.

      --
      Hey KID! Yeah you, get the fuck off my lawn!
    44. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by FlyingGuy · · Score: 1

      Pretty much all of this can be emulated in digital by various Photoshop functions or application of traditional camera techniques and can be done without handling toxic chemicals and spending large amounts of trial and error hours in a darkroom.

      Key phrase = "pretty much"

      To me, the much bigger problem these days in photography is virtually all consumer cameras are getting their sensors + camera controls dumbed down to the least common denominator, cameras moving towards a homogeneous picture taking ability (instead of the good old days where each film type had vastly different unique light capturing capability, such as Fuji Velvia), and worst of all the slow disappearance of print technology and photo printer businesses which equals or even comes close to the old Cibachrome quality of color output.

      That is a huge problem because "good enough" is being pushed onto the world by faceless PHB's that wouldn't know good photography if it hit them square in the face.

      This is why I still have a darkroom, I still have all those "toxic chemicals" ( dry form ) around and I have accumulated a good stock of film and paper that I store at -20 C

      --
      Hey KID! Yeah you, get the fuck off my lawn!
    45. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 1

      He once wrote that when people asked him which was his favorite camera, he answered "The largest one I can carry!"

      Or, if he couldn't carry a large enough camera, he would use a pack mule or a converted limousine with purpose built photo platform.

      Adams's photo gear

    46. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by ffreeloader · · Score: 1

      It seems everyone who replied to my post, including you, has a problem understanding conditional statements. I said, a DSLR is a poor substitute "if you are looking for....". If what I listed isn't what someone is looking for then a DSLR is fine. But, if having the maximum amount of adjustability, the ability to create a large print with much less post-processing, and the resulting quality of the original image and enlargements of the same size, is of importance to you, then the view camera can't be beat. If image quality isn't the most important factor to somebody, then the 35mm DSLR will work just fine.

      There's a reason a lot of people shoot medium and large format rather than 35mm. If I had the money, I wouldn't shoot anything else because image quality is job 1 as far as I'm concerned.

      --
      "while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude." de Tocqueville
    47. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by ffreeloader · · Score: 1

      And who shoots fashion and street photography with a large format camera? Nobody that I know of. And why would anyone need tilt/shift lenses for those types of photography? I can't think of a reason.

      Street photography is not architectural photography. You carefully set up an architectural photograph, but a street photograph is normally a candid snap. Yes, it's more than that, but at its essence that is what it is.

      --
      "while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude." de Tocqueville
    48. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by ffreeloader · · Score: 1

      You're the idiot. My statement was a conditional statement. The comparison included an if.... Thus you're reading into my words something I never said.

      It seems you have a pretty severe reading comprehension problem.

      --
      "while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude." de Tocqueville
    49. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by ffreeloader · · Score: 1

      This I was unaware of. All the 35mm tilt/shift lenses I've ever seen have been 2 axes lenses. Thanks for the info.

      --
      "while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude." de Tocqueville
    50. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by ffreeloader · · Score: 1

      One thing I didn't respond to in your post.... Where did I say that either a 35mm or a large format camera would need to have this sensor for the comparison I made to be a valid comparison? I was comparing one type of camera to another for very specific uses. Whether this new sensor is there or not is of no consequence. I wasn't even thinking about the sensor in the comparison.

      --
      "while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude." de Tocqueville
    51. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      Yes, I can get gigapixel quality via simple panorama stitching. 50 images with my 5DII > 1 gigapixel. I fact production of high quality panoramas is one of the things that TS excels at.

      Computer composition gives you arbitrary control of depth of field, including non-flat depth of field.

      Once you have an image there isn't anything you can do about depth of field. Compositing a set of images to manage DOF when you can get the same benefit by turning a knob on a lens is an expensive and impractical process for a working photographer.

      And you haven't mentioned focal plane control at all.

      There is nothing you can do a tilt/shift camera that can't be done better and cheaper with computational photography.

      Since computational photography software outside very basic effects, and hardware to support it is not generally available that is obviously a false statement.

    52. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by yyxx · · Score: 1

      Once you have an image there isn't anything you can do about depth of field. Compositing a set of images to manage DOF when you can get the same benefit

      You can't get the same effect. All you can do with a view camera is to place the focal plane somewhere; it's a very limited effect. With computational photography, you can get infinite depth of field, or you can choose arbitrary regions to be in and out of focus.

      by turning a knob on a lens is an expensive and impractical process for a working photographer.

      View cameras are hugely expensive, and transporting them and setting them up is as well.

      Since computational photography software outside very basic effects, and hardware to support it is not generally available that is obviously a false statement.

      It's generally available, just not in the push-button simple form that you may be comfortable with.

    53. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      View cameras are hugely expensive, and transporting them and setting them up is as well.

      I am not talking about a view camera here. This is a TS lens used on a DSLR. Cost is $1000-$2000. Portability and convenience is exemplary.

      In addition you can use it to record video as well:

      http://www.geeksaresexy.net/2009/06/12/amazing-tilt-shift-video-of-swiss-landscape-and-trains/

    54. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by yyxx · · Score: 1

      Well, look at what the story and discussion is about: 8"x8" sensors and view cameras.

      A TS lens on a DSLR is OK, but they are still heavy and quite limited. If you're an architectural photographer, they may still be worth it, although I think in a few years, they'll just be considered a useless brick. For most people, an ultrawide lens and some extra resolution in the camera are a better way of spending the money and weight; they can then get good architectural shots either by cropping (shoot level, crop ground, which is essentially what a TS lens does) or perspective correction (shoot up, then correct, a standard function).

      The videos seem pretty gimmicky to me. On the rare occasion you actually need something like that, it's easy to simulate. TS for limited focus makes little sense these days. A wide aperture lens is money better spent if you want limited DOF.

      Extended DOF with tilting also isn't that useful; most situations like that can be adequately handled by stopping down, due to smaller sensors and higher sensitivity of digital.

      I used to have a TS lens for my DSLR; it just didn't make that much sense to keep it.

    55. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      The TS lens I use most is quite wide at 24 mm. One of the advantages of TS is that it gives you a wider image circle than a standard lens of the same focal length, so it can be seen as effectively a 16mm lens.

      Rotating the lens can bring up the DOF so I can use a much wider aperture than a conventional lens. No loss of image quality because I have to close the aperture below the diffraction limit to get the DOF I want. It's much better than stopping down to F22 and praying.

      The cost of the lens was only $400 more than the same quality non-TS 24mm offering in the same product line, and the weight was an insignificant 3oz. more.

      As a result this lens functions as a great ultrawide for me with the added benefit of the TS capability.

      It's very unlikely to be a 'brick' anytime soon.

      Using the conventional techniques you mention to get the same effect as a TS lens are all accompanied with a loss of image quality, which is why these lenses are available on the market in the first place.

    56. Re:back to old style camera sizes? by yyxx · · Score: 1

      One of the advantages of TS is that it gives you a wider image circle than a standard lens of the same focal length, so it can be seen as effectively a 16mm lens.

      No matter how you shift it, you can't get the same shot as with a 16mm lens.

      Rotating the lens can bring up the DOF so I can use a much wider aperture than a conventional lens.

      That only works for very limited shooting situations.

      Using the conventional techniques you mention to get the same effect as a TS lens are all accompanied with a loss of image quality,

      You get a loss of resolution with cropping or perspective correction, at worst half. You get 10 Mpixel, which is good enough for web and most print. There are very few situations in which tilt gives you DOF that you can't achieve with stopping down: extreme perspective on planes or weird focus in low light, neither of which comes up much. Simulating selective focus doesn't result in any loss of quality. That's all without using computational photography. As I was saying, if you're a dedicated architectural photographer, it may still be worth it to get twice the resolution on buildings.

      In a couple of years, computational photography will be so fully automated that there will be no point at all anymore.

  6. Telescopes by ksandom · · Score: 2, Interesting
    are the first thing I think of for this.

    There is currently no information about the sensor's resolution.

    Darn, that was my biggest question. Low light photography has always been one of my interests, so I would have a lot of fun with a camera based on this technology :D ... Actually, I'd be rather keen to have a try making my own... Maybe that's for another day though. ;)

    --
    Funnyhacks - Wierd, unusual, and fun hacks
    1. Re:Telescopes by Entropius · · Score: 1

      You can shoot in light that's so low that you can barely see in it with a few thousand bucks of equipment now. (Thinking a Nikon D700 and 50/1.4 lens or something.)

    2. Re:Telescopes by hedwards · · Score: 1

      If you want low light, you shouldn't even consider Nikon. I'm not sure about in recent times, but Canon has been kicking Nikon's ass in that respect for many years. It's really not a coincidence that the vast majority of sports photographers have those lenses with the red ring around them. It's simply because Canon is better at low light, fast shutter speed photography than Nikon is. On top of that they do a much better job with the longer lenses needed for those pursuits.

      That's not to say that Nikon is trash, it's not, they just don't focus on those markets for whatever reason. If you're just looking for things which are more standard, a Nikon or Fuji is just fine. In fact Fuji is great if you're into portraits, they've always been very good about reproducing skin tones.

    3. Re:Telescopes by Entropius · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Things *have* changed in recent times. Nikon introduced a 35mm-frame DSLR about two years ago, the D3, and now has four fullframe models that are just astounding in low-light performance. The D3S is the best of them: see dpreview's review at http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond3s/page33.asp .

      The D700 I mentioned above is their affordable fullframe model: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond700/page32.asp

    4. Re:Telescopes by Entropius · · Score: 1

      Also, I believe that the very long lenses used for this sort of thing are pretty much a wash. But I do know that a lot of bird photographers have been moving from Canon to Nikon for the Nikon superteles (500 f/4 and such), so they can't be that bad.

    5. Re:Telescopes by ksandom · · Score: 1

      Definitely. I've been wanting to try the D700 for a while. Even my old (like bottom-mid range 4 years ago) Cannon power shot captures at lot of stuff my eyes can't.

      --
      Funnyhacks - Wierd, unusual, and fun hacks
  7. what we could get? by Fri13 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Moonlight on the earth surface or moonlight of the moon?

    Taking photos of the moon is same thing as taking photos of the bright sunlight of theearth surface. Like 1/125 f:11 ISO 100.

    No but really, that is impressive but depends from the aperture and lens quality do we get better than f:0.4 or something. But that just means the A/D conversion is impressive at that size of sensor so we might see very noiseless ISO of 250 000 setting.

    But there really is demand to get a old formats back. Especially if the megapixel amount would be same as with negative. What is not going to happend because Canon likes more to make bigger sensors than tight megapixels. Thing about A4 (197x210mm) sized full size architecture camera. On such negative with ISO 50-100 you can capture more details than what you could even think about with digital cameras.

    1. Re:what we could get? by Locke2005 · · Score: 1

      think they mean taking photos of the Earth by the reflected light of the moon, but even then you have a huge variance in lumens depending on the phase of the moon, so I'd assume a full moon. Of course, it would have been much more concise to just specify the actual light level required!

      --
      I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    2. Re:what we could get? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course, it would have been much more concise to just specify the actual light level required!

      You mean like in the article where they say "facilitating the shooting of 60 frame-per-second video with a mere 0.3 lux of illumination"?

    3. Re:what we could get? by timeOday · · Score: 1
      I have never really understood why large sensors are better in low light. The amount of light collected depends on the size of the objective lens, not on the size of the sensor. Thus for a given resolution the number of photons landing on each pixel should be the same regardless of sensor size.

      The only exception I can see is the gaps that must exist between rows and columns of pixels - they would cover a smaller percentage of a larger receptor.

      But surely it's not just that?

    4. Re:what we could get? by LordByronStyrofoam · · Score: 1

      It's because small sensors have a much worse signal to noise ratio.

      --
      Slashdot's name? When my compiler sees /. it generates a warning about a badly formed comment.
    5. Re:what we could get? by hedwards · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's because the photosites are further apart and the lenses over the individual photosites are larger. Meaning that you can crank up the gain further without increasing the interference between photosites and have more light available to begin with. Basically you end up with more photons being directed at the photosite and less chance of energy generated at other photosites from interfering.

    6. Re:what we could get? by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

      Not sure that this is right but if you imagine a small number of photons arriving on your detector then reconstructing the image will depend in part on the resolution of the detector. The resolution helps you turn an indistinct blob into a real image.

    7. Re:what we could get? by timeOday · · Score: 1

      No, I said small vs large sensor assuming a fixed objective lens size and rows/cols of pixels - so the total amount of light is the same, as is the light per pixel / photosite. When you say the photosites are further apart, do you mean there are insulating gaps between them that are larger, or that the average distance between points on neighboring photosites is larger, thus reducing leakage between them?

    8. Re:what we could get? by floateyedumpi · · Score: 1

      It's because implicit in this comparison is the statement "for a fixed field of view and resolution", which implies a focal length, and hence aperture size, which scale with with sensor size: See http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/does.pixel.size.matter/#The_f_ratio_Myth. Large detectors are not intrinsically more sensitive, but for a given field of view and angular resolution, they collect more light than small sensors, going as the square of the its size.

    9. Re:what we could get? by karnal · · Score: 1

      Didn't it specify .3 lux in the article?

      --
      Karnal
    10. Re:what we could get? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps there is a light loss when lenses need to concentrate the light?

    11. Re:what we could get? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes.

  8. Resolution...? by ksandom · · Score: 1

    The article says that there's currently no information available about the resolution. I just wondered if this might be the same sensor from the story the other day about the 120MP sensor...? Two stories for the price of one? Agree? Disagree?

    --
    Funnyhacks - Wierd, unusual, and fun hacks
    1. Re:Resolution...? by m2shariy · · Score: 2, Informative

      RTFA: This follows last week's development announcement of Canon's 120 megapixel 29.2 x 20.2mm APS-H CMOS sensor. They are different sensors.

    2. Re:Resolution...? by ksandom · · Score: 1

      Did read. I disagree that that means they are not related. It's only a statement made by the reporter.

      --
      Funnyhacks - Wierd, unusual, and fun hacks
    3. Re:Resolution...? by ksandom · · Score: 1
      Actually, let's take this a step further:

      The article says

      is approximately 40 times the size of Canon's largest commercial CMOS sensor

      And then quantifies that

      The approximately 21.1 megapixel 35 mm full-frame CMOS sensor employed in the company's EOS-1Ds Mark III and EOS 5D Mark II digital SLR cameras

      So the new sensor is ~40 times larger than their 21.1MP sensor.

      120MP/40=3MP: If we assume that they are the same sensor, and take a chunk of the sensor the same size as as their 21.1MP sensor, we get 3MP.

      21.1MP/3MP=7: The 21.1MP sensor is 7 times more dense than this sensor if we assume it to only be 120MP. Meaning that the receptors are potentially as much as 7 times the size, therefore making them highly sensitive and suitable for really low light, while having incredible high resolution. This adds a lot of weight to the possiblity that they are the same sensor.

      With that difference in density, they could use current technology and still have room to use for their

      innovative circuit design

      I'm not saying you're wrong. It's quite possible that they are different sensors. However, your resoning is:

      This follows last week's development announcement

      You are quoting an announcement, not a chip.

      These are both impressive achievements. Cannon would have pumped a lot of money into this, so I wouldn't be at all surprised if they decided to milk it a little.

      --
      Funnyhacks - Wierd, unusual, and fun hacks
    4. Re:Resolution...? by PPH · · Score: 1

      Not just megapixels. What's the color depth, dynamic range, etc. The best high res digital photo still falls on its face when taking photos of something like the sky, where the hue changes gradually. I can see the color bands in 8 bit per color raw data of such photos.

      Is it as good as Kodachrome?

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    5. Re:Resolution...? by PhrostyMcByte · · Score: 1

      I was under the impression that good cameras could capture much better than 8-bit? Of course, most people see really bad banding because they've got a cheap 6-bit LCD -- so unless you're going to print or process the image, it won't really matter anyway.

    6. Re:Resolution...? by bored · · Score: 1

      First, I don't think the problem is necessary the image sensor. That is because there is sufficient noise in every digital sensor I've ever used (I have a couple fairly high end Canons) that any "banding" is broken up by noise. Which is just a nice analog way to dither adjacent regions.

      Second, i'm betting the majority of the problem, is the overuse of image processing/compression, which is removing the noise. I see it all the time on blu-rays, or cheap ads in crummy magazines*. So instead of a rough boundary the eye cannot see, instead its well defined. MPEG/JPEG naturally does high frequency filtering, so just don't do it.

      Finally, while I think doing everything in 10 bits (at a minimum the image processing) is a good idea. A lot of image problems are actually fundamentally in our vision and not the inherent display. Mach banding, moire patterns, etc are problems in our vision caused by image regularity that need to be worked around, rather than fixed.

      *the same magazines with massively pixelated ads. I imagine this is because it looked fine in preview mode, but the printer has 5x the resolution of the editors monitor, and there isn't any requirements on image DPI. Or there is explicit avoidance of big hard to email around images.

  9. This will never happen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    but I'll ask just one more time:

    What I want is a digital collector that lays in/on the rails of my Nikon Fs and has the circuitry where the cassette would have gone with maybe a usb jack cut in the bottom of the film back. I know, this is pure nostalgia. Tell me nostalgia doesn't sell. I'm not buying a DX-blah for some time but I'd buy one of these tomorrow. Maybe two.

    1. Re:This will never happen by dbIII · · Score: 1

      There was one shown off at trade shows in the late 1990s but it never went into production despite a lot of interest. Anyone with a microscope plus 35mm camera mount would have paid thousands for it instead of the tens of thousands to attach digital cameras.

    2. Re:This will never happen by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

      Yeah I have a good Nikon camera at home which I will never use again because it uses film. I feel bad about it but the sad fact is I can get better bang for my buck by buying a new DSLR.

    3. Re:This will never happen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're correct that it will never happen. There's a reason for that. You haven't remotely thought through the huge number of disdvantages for this idea, in terms of lack of usability, fragility, space / packaging requirements (which will differ from camera body to camera body), interface to the camera itself, and a whole hell of a lot more besides.

      It's a terrible idea that took far too long to die. Google "Silicon Film" / Imagek to find out why. The final nail in their coffin was a complete inability to pass European emissions testing, after struggling even to pass the less stringent FCC testing.

    4. Re:This will never happen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You haven't remotely thought through the huge number of disdvantages for this idea,...

      And you, sir, haven't thought much about nostalgia. As for the details, I leave those for experts. That's why I see fit to hire them from time to time. They're handy for details.

  10. I would say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    you're wrong about its uses, but with new and coming art directors being completely unaware about megapixels and print size, the death of print publication.... I agree that I don't see much use from an 8x10 camera. Photoshop and tilt-shift camera takes care of architecture photography, not to mention most arch. firms uses 3d rendering. Publications are going online, and you don't need anything more than 1200px the longest side.

    Every publication I've been working for are about content quantity rather than quality. From weddings to fine art, and finally magazine editors. They seem to want all the shots these days, not realizing that shooting is just one half of the equation; printing (or post-processing in photoshop) is the other half.

    Anyhoo, I def. see this in scientific use. Not for fashion spreads anytime soon.

    1. Re:I would say... by ffreeloader · · Score: 1

      I can see this used by many professional photographers who would have much less post-processing to do as a sensor that size could produce an image of poster size with very little manipulation. Those pros who make a good living selling fine art photographs will be drooling over this as the size of the print possible with this sensor will be very large with very little pixelation.

      --
      "while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude." de Tocqueville
    2. Re:I would say... by hedwards · · Score: 1

      Precisely, the best photographers whether they be pro or serious amateurs know that the best chance to get the shot is in camera. You can do a lot of those things in photoshop, but it really and truly isn't the same. Best case you limit the size at which you can print and more likely you get something of inferior quality. Beyond that, it just takes less time to do it right the first time, than to try and figure out how to fix it later on, even with raw formats it's still just not as good.

    3. Re:I would say... by ffreeloader · · Score: 1

      Agreed. This sensor in a view camera, with lenses that would stop down far enough to really take advantage of the light sensitivity of the sensor, would be a mighty sweet camera. With the tilt/shift/swing of a good view camera and a very deep depth of field the creativity possibilities would be incredible.

      --
      "while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude." de Tocqueville
  11. A little late by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That Paris Hilton sex video really could have used one of these!

  12. ...or rather more likely, not. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "although Canon may develop some of their own designed specifically for their requirements"

    ...or not. This isn't intended for a product launch, it's a technology demo intended to get some publicity for Canon Expo (and hence, for Canon itself).

    I'll eat my hat if this sensor is every used in any product sold by Canon.

  13. No free lunch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If it requires 1/100 the light of a 35mm sensor, then it also achieves 1/100 the depth of field using the same lens type. So your landscape photo (it'd be useless for portraits) would have about a battery width worth in focus, and the rest blurred.

    1. Re:No free lunch by ffreeloader · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You have this exactly backwards. The more you can stop down your lens, f2.8 wide open and f60 stopped down, means less light to your sensor, the greater your depth of field. This sensor means you could shoot at ISO 25, a shutter speed of 1/500 or 1/1000 of a second, and an fstop of 60 very easily in a lot less than full light conditions. That's a great depth of field, a shutter speed fast enough to reduce the effects of any vibration, and still get enough light to get a good exposure. I'm just guessing on what the fstop and shutter speeds would be with a sensor that light sensitive, but with a modern dslr you couldn't even get close to those settings in anything less than bright sunlight without very low shutter speeds that require the use of a tripod and higher ISO settings that tend to induce noise.

      --
      "while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude." de Tocqueville
    2. Re:No free lunch by Malc · · Score: 1

      Depth of field doesn't just relate to the aperture size (less DoF for wider aperature/small F-number), but also focal length of the lens (less DoF in telephoto lense or the larger SLR versus compact cameras) and the distance to focussed object (less DoF if it is closer to the camera). Your statement, as the other person points out is wrong. If it requires 1/100th of the light, you might have to close the aperture somewhat, increasing the DoF. This is a really cool DoF Calculator.

    3. Re:No free lunch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, he got it forwards. Both DoF and the amount of light gathered are approximated by physical aperture size.
      With 10 times the aperture, you gather 100 times the light, but reduce DoF to roughly one tenth. No Free Lunch.

      You ought to try macrophotography of bugs like bees for some quick enlightenment.

    4. Re:No free lunch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Depth of field becomes shallower the larger the film is (for a given field of view). This effect is much stronger than you would think. Stopping down a large format camera to get depth of field is not very effective, particularly at these film sizes. The only surefire way to get deep depth of field is to focus at infinity - then you have infinite depth of field regardless of how your aperture is set.

      Another way to get great depth of field is to stop down to a pinhole. However if your aim is to get a high quality image this is not very smart as due to light/wave duality, you get slit effect and would have to have very large pixels to get even a reasonable result.

    5. Re:No free lunch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This sensor means you could shoot at ISO 25, a shutter speed of 1/500 or 1/1000 of a second, and an fstop of 60 very easily

      TFA speaks of high-sensitivity sensor of 202x205 mm dimensions, capable of 60fps capture.

      This suggests a specialized unit with very high gain ie high ISO. Makes sense because smaller sensors
      have very little room for gain circuitry (smaller and noisier transistors); a sensor this big has
      much larger pixels. (Pixel size itself does not affect ISO.)

    6. Re:No free lunch by AC-x · · Score: 1

      ISO doesn't work like that, the sensors are celebrated so that the ISO values are roughly the same across all sensors (and the same as film too), so a compact camera set to ISO 100, f4 will require the same shutter speed as a full frame DSLR at ISO 100, f4

      ISO 25 in broad daylight with a lens set to f60 would require (quick back of a fag packet calculation) 1/6 sec exposure no matter what the camera.

      What I think you mean is that the sensor's high iso (say iso 12800) is the equivalent quality of what iso 25 would be on a standard DSLR

    7. Re:No free lunch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      a shutter speed fast enough to reduce the effects of any vibration

      I'd venture a guess this behemoth is meant for video surveillance, no shutter needed.

    8. Re:No free lunch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ISO 25 is the opposite off what we understand to be "extremely sensitive to light".
      The ISO value is a descriptor of the sensitivity to light, so I expect this camera to have rather high available ISO values, but with the benefit of not having to amplify the signal very much to achieve them. On the other hand, you will need a bunch of gray-filters to operate this thing under daylight conditions....

    9. Re:No free lunch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It really boggles my mind how such uninformed, nonsensical rubbish can score +5 Insightful.
      As far as photography is concerned, this man is completely in the dark.

    10. Re:No free lunch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      True, but note that depth of field is also dependent on sensor size. You can see it in action if you browse photo.net for macro shots taken with SLRs vs small-sensor digicams. Even though the SLRs often have superior optics and lower-noise sensors, the digicams tend to make for better macro shots because their small sensors let them retain a longer depth of field even when focusing on objects that are very close.

      So I'd imagine that the reduced depth of field which results from using a sensor this large would offset the advantages you'd gain by being able to more agressively stop down the lens.

    11. Re:No free lunch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What about diffraction that occurs on high F-Stop values?

  14. Shutter speed by WilyCoder · · Score: 2, Interesting

    "It will be able to capture an image with 1/100th the light intensity required by a DSLR"

    I'm reading that as ultra fast shutter speeds being available for fast moving photography. Cool.

    1. Re:Shutter speed by Entropius · · Score: 3, Insightful

      At the moment highspeed photography is limited by how fast the shutters will go. The larger focal-plane shutters used for this larger format are likely to be even slower than the ones used on today's DSLR's.

      My camera, a bog-standard Olympus DSLR, can do up to 1/4000. Nicer cameras can do 1/8000, but I don't know of any off-the-shelf DSLR that can do faster.

      I can shoot 1/4000 at ISO 800 f/5.6 in sunlight. With a f/2.8 lens (you'd use at least f/2.8 for highspeed work, f/2 if you can get it) you can get up to 1/8000 in outdoor light at a reasonable ISO. (Four Thirds cameras can do ISO 800 with reasonable quality; the best APS-C, like the Nikon D300, can do ISO 1600; fullframe can do ISO 3200.)

      This thing might be able to get up to 1/8000 in worse light, but only if you can find a f/2.8 or f/2 lens for it. Large-format lenses tend to be slow.

    2. Re:Shutter speed by bieber · · Score: 1

      Maybe in carefully staged settings, but we already have super high-speed cameras for carefully staged settings. In real life, have fun trying to use a view camera to capture fast motion. The larger your sensor, the longer the lens you need to get the same field of view, and the shallower your depth of field. With a view camera shooting sports or what-have-you you'd need an absolutely ridiculously insanely long lens and it would be all but impossible to focus it on anything moving faster than a glacier.

    3. Re:Shutter speed by LordByronStyrofoam · · Score: 1

      The size of the sensor is going to have an impact on shutter speed. If you want to pull a little slit past a 200mm sensor, it's gonna take a lot longer than pulling it past an APS-C size sensor.

      --
      Slashdot's name? When my compiler sees /. it generates a warning about a badly formed comment.
    4. Re:Shutter speed by __aarzwb9394 · · Score: 1

      my guess is this can be overcome by using an electronic shutter? i.e turning off the sensor

    5. Re:Shutter speed by getto+man+d · · Score: 1

      Very cool. I'm also interpreting it as better image capture in a natural environment, say 'x' meters below sea levels. Of course light won't reach certain depths but using ROVs scientific crews can always stage sub-sea lighting further away. Or here's a relevant project / application: http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/explorations/09bioluminescence/background/lowlight/lowlight.html

    6. Re:Shutter speed by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      This comes at a cost of quality so you're not likely to see this kind of system in any camera not a) specifically designed for it or b) having the option to turn it off. Some of the entry level Nikon DSLRs of yesteryear at shutter speeds above 1/250th would open the shutter, THEN start the sensor and close the shutter for this very reason.

    7. Re:Shutter speed by __aarzwb9394 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Nikon d3s (35mm size sensor) can currently do up to 102400 ISO and produce usable images.

      Can anyone tell me why this wouldn't be used with an electronic shutter if ultra high speed photography was the goal?

    8. Re:Shutter speed by Entropius · · Score: 1

      Yes, but this is less important than the amount of time that each piece of the sensor is exposed for certain sorts of highspeed photography. I shoot hummingbirds, for instance, and what I care about is that each piece of the bird is exposed for a very short time -- I'm not terribly concerned about whether it's the *same* very short time. (The travel time on my sensor, which has 1/2 the linear size of fullframe, is about 1/180.)

      Some sorts of high speed photography are very concerned about this, I imagine, and they're unlikely to be able to use a focal plane shutter at all.

    9. Re:Shutter speed by __aarzwb9394 · · Score: 1

      It seems likely that a) such large sensors will (if they ever reach any market at all) only have highly specialised camera backs which will almost certainly be specially designed for them. One thing that occurs to me is astronomy

    10. Re:Shutter speed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, I can tell you: the short answer is that electronic shutter just isn't very fast.
      The long answer is that CMOS sensors must be sampled in series, aka a rolling shutter, and it takes a fair bit of time to go from one corner to the other. Enough time that it causes skew of moving object in video. Sensors are getting better (the first video on DSLRs, a Nikon, was so bad that panning the camera at a leisurely rate caused jello, although this is largely fixed now) but mechanical shutters are still far faster.

    11. Re:Shutter speed by Kristopeit,+M.+D. · · Score: 1

      the only problem is now you're dealing with enormous amounts of data... the bottleneck will be transferring that data to storage before the next exposure can start.

    12. Re:Shutter speed by Lust · · Score: 1

      Sadly my first thought was military.

    13. Re:Shutter speed by rssrss · · Score: 2, Informative

      Large Format View Cameras do not use focal plane shutters like DSLRs. They use blade type shutters mounted in the lenses. The real use for high sensitivity will be to allow for smaller apertures and greater depth of field.

      --
      In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
    14. Re:Shutter speed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about LCD shutter?

    15. Re:Shutter speed by Strange+Ranger · · Score: 1

      "It will be able to capture an image with 1/100th the light intensity required by a DSLR"
      I'm reading that as ultra fast shutter speeds being available for fast moving photography. Cool.

      He's not talking at all about how fast the shutter is mechanically able to peform, 1/4000 or 1/8000. Setting your shutter on 1/4000 isn't the issue. It's having enough light to get a good exposure at 1/4000. What he's talking about is shooting at 1/100th a normal (by current standards) ISO. The sensor is 100x more sensitive to light.

      This makes higher shutter speeds available, because the photo won't be dark at 1/2000. Or in other words, f/8, 1/7000th of second, ISO 320,000 for freezing those hummingbird wings flitting about in the shadow of the dim pre-dawn light.

      --

      Operator, give me the number for 911!
    16. Re:Shutter speed by Cesare+Ferrari · · Score: 1

      I use a canon DSLRs, and 1/8000th is the limit. In strong light it can be a limit with a fast prime (a 1.2 or 1.4 prime for example). The best solution is to then use an ND filter.

      If you want faster than that, you are best off using artificial light. Flash will stop just about any action, and it is easy enough to setup triggers for the flash to capture events from motion, sound, or electronically delayed triggering from an event. Of course the joy of digital with shots like this is the ability to quickly tell whether you have got or missed the shot, and due to the random nature of say, a drop of water hitting a bowl of water, you can repeat until you are happy with the result.

    17. Re:Shutter speed by Entropius · · Score: 1

      Ah, yes. I forgot that large-format lenses usually use leaf shutters anyway. From what I know about them, their maximum shutter speed is somewhat limited; as I recall the Leica S2 lenses have shutters limited to 1/500 or so.

      The problem with large format -> smaller apertures -> greater DOF is that large formats inherently have smaller DOF. For instance, my camera has a sensor which is half as large (roughly) in each linear dimension as fullframe. So my f/4 gives the same depth of field as f/8 on fullframe. To maintain the same shutter speed, the fullframe camera has to use four times the ISO. But, in general, its larger sensor can give the same image quality at four times the ISO, so everything cancels out in the end.

      When you're depth-of-field limited, it turns out any format size can produce about the same image. On this beastie you'll have to use f/100 to get the same depth of field that I get at f/8.

    18. Re:Shutter speed by Entropius · · Score: 1

      Yes, in dim pre-dawn light the high sensitivity will be a huge, huge advantage. Of course, f/8 on this thing will have dof of a few millimeters.

    19. Re:Shutter speed by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      For sure! But astronomy is the exact opposite application requiring often very VERY long exposures rather than incredibly fast ones :)

    20. Re:Shutter speed by eggnoglatte · · Score: 1

      Except that, by scaling up the camera relative to the scene, you have just lost depth of field. Overall, the DOF will be a wash.

    21. Re:Shutter speed by MattBurke · · Score: 1

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge-coupled_device goes into more detail than the AC above if you fancy a read

    22. Re:Shutter speed by AC-x · · Score: 1

      Large format cameras don't use focal plane shutters, they use leaf or diaphragm shutters

    23. Re:Shutter speed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have a 4x5 with a focal plane shutter, this used to be quite common. Speed graphics and the old Gralfex RB SLRs had focal plane shutters, and blade type shutters.

    24. Re:Shutter speed by dh003i · · Score: 1

      This isn't actually true, that when you're DOF limited, any format can produce the same image. At a crop factor of 6.64, f/28.4 on 4x5 (f/53 on 8x8) is about equal to f/8 on 35mm. However, large format lenses are a lot closer to the diffraction limit at f/28 (because it is a lower number) than are 35mm cameras to their diffraction limit at f/8. Furthermore, because the resolution of say ISO 100 film outstrips that of the lens by so much, you're basically getting the full aerial resolution on film (this has to do with MTF).

      To make it clear:

      Assuming both lenses perform at the diffraction limit, f/28.4 at ISO 100 on 100 lp/mm film will get you the same exposure, depth of field, and image quality as f/8 at ISO 6.7 (the area of 4x5 is 14.9x larger than 36x24) on 355 lp/mm film. By same image quality, I mean the quality of the final print. The reason for the disparity is of course the much greater area and diagonal of 4x5 film. Breaking that down:

      * The equivalent f-stops and film resolutions are determined by the crop factor from 35mm to 4x5 (3.55x). Performance at the diffraction limit for f/28.4 is about 1500/28.4 = 53 lp/mm. Performance at the diffraction limit for f/8 is 187.5 lp/mm. For final 4x5 resolution, accounting for film resolution, 1 / (1/53 + 1/100) = 34.6 lp/mm. Assuming 10 lp/mm is acceptable for final print, that gets you a 3.46x enlargement over the 6.4in diagonal of the film: final print diagonal = 22in. For final 35mm resolution, accounting for film resolution, 1 / (1/187.5 + 1/355) = 122.7 lp/mm. Assuming 10 lp/mm is acceptable for final print, that gets you a 12.2x enlargement over the 1.7in diagonal of the film: final print diagonal = 21 in. The difference is in rounding error.

      That is all hypothetical though. In reality, neither lens performs at the diffraction limit, but 4x5 lenses perform a lot closer to the diffraction limit at say f/32 than do 35mm lenses at f/8. Some good large format lenses get around 40 lp/mm or more at f/32, 85% of the diffraction limit of 47 lp/mm. The Olympus 50/2, a very sharp 4/3rds macro lens, gets 105 lp/mm at f/8...don't expect 35mm lenses to outperform that. That would be 56% of the diffraction limit of 187.5 lp/mm. So you're going to be able to make a print ~1.3x as large from 4x5 vs. 35mm...assuming you use 355 lp/mm film with 35mm.

      * The equivalent ISO for image quality is determined by the fold difference in area between 4x5 and 35mm film: about 14.9x more area on 4x5 film. Hence, it can have an ISO 14.9x as high: ISO 100 on 4x5 has the same image quality (tonality, grain in final print) as ISO 6.7 on 35mm film. The problem here is, you really aren't going to find ISO 6.7 film. The lowest I've heard of for a TLR is ISO10. Actually, there is Efke IR820 Infared ISO 3. However, it is IR film. However, this is available for 4x5 too. If you want to talk about color film, for the most part, the lowest ISO of 4x5 and 35mm is the same -- ISO 100 or ISO 50 (for Velvia).

      The same thing would be true for digital. If you're getting ISO 100 on say a hypothetical 4x5 digital sensor, you'd need ISO 6.7 to get the same image quality from a 35mm sensor.

    25. Re:Shutter speed by Entropius · · Score: 1

      I should have added more qualifications to my statement. This whole "format equivalence" thing is only valid within certain parameters; in particular, I should have said that I'm assuming that you have the appropriate lenses available, that the lenses are diffraction-limited in the appropriate regime, and that you are also noise-limited at the sensor end. Film resolution is of course an issue; I was thinking in digital-land, where pixel count can (and often is) relatively independent of format size.

      Your statements about the reality of lens design are good ones. Yes, a 25mm f/0.7 shot on Four Thirds can produce the same image as a 50mm f/1.4 shot on 35mm at four times the ISO, but the difference is that the former just plain doesn't exist, and would be quite soft if it did.

      But, again, if you're talking about depth-of-field limited photography, you're going to be at higher f/numbers anyway. Many good Four Thirds lenses are essentially in the diffraction-limited regime as early as f/5.6 or even lower. (I'm not quite sure exactly where it is, since they outresolve the hell out of the sensor.)

      And you're right about low ISO: if you want the absolute best signal-to-noise ratio (which is what I think in terms of, since I shoot digital), you need larger formats, simply because there is no ISO 25 on Four Thirds.

    26. Re:Shutter speed by dh003i · · Score: 1

      Four Thirds lenses do start decreasing in resolution after f/5.6, but they are not "diffraction-limited" by f/5.6, not if by that you mean "they perform at the diffraction limit there and beyond" (although maybe diffraction is the main cause of decreased performance). I actually calculated some data on his from dpreview's tests of the Olympus Zuiko Digital 50/2 macro lens, which I own (I had to convert their numbers to lp/mm, of which here are the results):

      Olympus Zuiko Digital Macro 50mm f/2
      f/stop (4x5 equiv) -- resolution -- theoretical diffraction limit -- % Diffraction Limit
      f/2 (f/14.2) -- 92 lp/mm -- 750 lp/mm -- 12%
      f/2.8 (f/20) -- 112 lp/mm -- 536 lp/mm -- 21%
      f/3.3 (f/23) -- 119 lp/mm -- 455 lp/mm -- 26%
      f/5.6 (f/40) -- 116 lp/mm -- 268 lp/mm -- 43%
      f/8 (f/57) -- 105 lp/mm -- 188 lp/mm -- 56%
      f/9 (f/64) -- 96 lp/mm -- 167 lp/mm -- 57%
      f/11 (f/78) -- 87 lp/mm -- 136 lp/mm -- 64%
      f/16 (f/114) -- 72 lp/mm -- 94 lp/mm -- 77%
      f/22 (f/156) -- 54 lp/mm -- 68 lp/mm -- 79%

      some similar large format lenses for which there is data (I've averaged the results for center, middle, and midline): http://www.hevanet.com/cperez/testing.html/

      Schneider G-Claron 305mm f/9 (equivalent to 43mm f/1.3 in 4/3rds for AOV and DOF)
      f/stop (4/3rds equiv) -- resolution -- theoretical diffraction limit -- % Diffraction Limit
      f/16 (f/2.3) -- 63 lp/mm -- 94 lp/mm -- 67%
      f/22 (f/3.1) -- 55 lp/mm -- 68 lp/mm -- 81%

      Fuji C-Series 450mm f/12.5 (equivalent to 63mm f/1.8 in 4/3rds for AOV and DOF)
      f/stop (4/3rds equiv) -- resolution -- theoretical diffraction limit -- % Diffraction Limit
      f/12.5 (f/1.8) -- 40 lp/mm -- 120 lp/mm -- 33%
      f/16 (f/2.3) -- 43 lp/mm -- 94 lp/mm -- 46%
      f/22 (f/3.1) -- 43 lp/mm -- 68 lp/mm -- 63%
      f/32 (f/4.5) -- 41 lp/mm -- 47 lp/mm -- 87%

      Some interesting things worth nothing:

      (1) By f/22, 4x5 lenses can perform as well as 4/3rds lenses at f/22. Look at other lenses in the link I provided, some of them are getting around 50-55 lp/mm at f/22.

      (2) However, at f/22, large-format lenses that may be performing at 63-81% of the theoretic diffraction limit are equivalent to f/3.1 on 4/3rds in terms of DOF. Around there, 4/3rds lenses are getting 21-26% of the theoretical diffraction limit (actually, not all 4/3rds lenses...the Oly 50/2 is one of the sharpest lenses ever made).

      (3) For portraiture work at f/2 on Olympus and assuming 5 lp/mm is desired for final print sharpness, the Olympus 50/2 can produce an enlargement of 92/5 = 18.4x enlargement over the 17.3 x 13.0 mm sensor size, for final prints of 9.4 x 12.5 inches. This is about on par with my experience of what Olympus can produce.

      (4) For portraiture work at f/16, which has equivalent DOF using the same composition as f/2 in 4/3rds, using say the 305/9 G-Claron, you can produce an enlargement of 63/5 = 12.6x over the 3.75 x 4.75 in film area (the edges are unusable due to the loading notches) for final prints of 47 x 60 inches! Now, granted, you'd need a lot accessory light for this. Also, most people don't blow portraits up that large, but even if not, you'd still have a much greater tonality and smoothness. (and if the pictures were too sharp, you'd have plenty of room to do some blurring to eliminate unwanted facial detail and provide a smoother image instead).

      (5) If you want to shoot with less intense light, there are the Xenotar 150/2.8 and 135/3.5. The Voightlander Apo Lanthar 300/4.5 has a longer focal length and some may prefer it for portraiture -- but its $5,900 on eBay right now (and it covers up to 8x10, so may not be sharp enough for 4x5)! In any event, assuming my Xenotar 135/3.5 for portraiture work wide open, it gets 20 lp/mm at the center wide open and 10 lp/mm at the edge for 15 on average. That's an enlargement of 3x over 4x5 for final print sizes of 12x15. Somewhat larger than 4/3rds and much mu

  15. How many pixels? by blair1q · · Score: 2, Funny

    TFA doesn't say how many pixels it is.

    One?

    1. Re:How many pixels? by Bryansix · · Score: 1

      Yes, It is ONE GIANT PIXEL. It captures 16-bit grayscale.

    2. Re:How many pixels? by aethogamous · · Score: 1

      A very crude guess of about 10mp, assuming that the extra light gathering is solely based on larger pixels and that they are assuming they can get lenses that cover this side with the same maximum aperture as for a 35 sensor. Sensor is 50 times larger and pixels 100 time larger.

    3. Re:How many pixels? by PPH · · Score: 3, Funny

      Meh.

      My neighbor has a 20 x 8 FOOT one pixel unit. It takes lousy photos, but it generates a couple of kilowatts.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
  16. IR Cameras by teko_teko · · Score: 1

    Perfect for capturing the Sorority girls in the next dorm over that turn-off the lights, but never close the curtains. "No honey I can't see you, but my camera can."

    I think Infra-red cameras will work better for your case. Sure, the colors aren't natural, but it works much better in low light.

    1. Re:IR Cameras by BungaDunga · · Score: 1

      You'll need a big IR spotlight, though. This wouldn't even need that.

    2. Re:IR Cameras by GrpA · · Score: 1

      Or an intensifier CCD... Intensified CCD's work in light levels down to microlux... This thing only works in 0.3 lux.

      Intensified CCD - 0.000005 Lux.
      This camera - 0.3 Lux.

      See the difference?

      There are already color video systems that work down to similar levels as this chip. In terms of low-light performance, it isn't all that impressive.

      But it's size is very impressive.

      As for watching people at night? I taken it you haven't ever heard of night vision equipment?

      Modern image intensifiers don't really need much light so an IR torch is probably overkill.

      As for the OP's intended use? Sounds pretty stupid to me... A good way to get into trouble.

      David

      --
      Enjoy science fiction? "Turing Evolved" - AI, Mecha, Androids and rail-gun battles. What more could you want?
    3. Re:IR Cameras by dh003i · · Score: 1

      "As for the OP's intended use? Sounds pretty stupid to me... A good way to get into trouble."

      I have no idea what you are talking about. An early poster mentioned something inappropriate about spying on other people; nothing like that was implied by my rather straightforward summary of the innovation.

      I intend to use it for large format photography (e.g., landscapes), if it ever becomes affordable.

    4. Re:IR Cameras by GrpA · · Score: 1

      Apologies. I stand corrected.

      --
      Enjoy science fiction? "Turing Evolved" - AI, Mecha, Androids and rail-gun battles. What more could you want?
  17. Yes, and No... [Re:Shutter speed] by MessyBlob · · Score: 1

    An SLR shutter doesn't expose the whole frame at the same instant: It's like a scanning line running down the frame, so if your gap (between the separately-controlled curtains) is small enough, you can have _any_ shutter speed you want - just don't expect the whole frame to be recording the same instant in time. Also, you don't need to put the shutter immediately in front of the film/sensor plate (but it helps give a clear image).

    1. Re:Yes, and No... [Re:Shutter speed] by Entropius · · Score: 1

      I know how a focal plane shutter works. You're still limited in how narrow you can make the slit and have its width well-controlled; my camera's frame is about 13mm tall, and at minimum shutter speed the slit is about 600 microns tall and travels across the frame at 6 meters/second. Not trivial engineering at all!

    2. Re:Yes, and No... [Re:Shutter speed] by MessyBlob · · Score: 1

      Yep (apologies: accidental patronising). Makes one wonder: at what slit size would diffraction start to cause problems, and would a large frame overcome that particular problem (assuming the shutter engineering was achieved)?

  18. 8x8? by PPH · · Score: 1

    Inches? Could we please have that in useful units. Like football fields.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
    1. Re:8x8? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Too bad there's no "-1 Please Die" mod. I'd use it for you.

  19. Imagine the images you could get by HotNeedleOfInquiry · · Score: 1

    With a Beowulf Cluster of these....

    --
    "Eve of Destruction", it's not just for old hippies anymore...
  20. Resolution of sensor by Thagg · · Score: 1

    A reasonable assumption would be that the sensitivity of the sensor is proportional to the area of the photosites (to a first approximation), so if this sensor is 100x as sensitive as, say, a D5MkII, then you would expect the photosites to be about 100x as big. Coincidentally, the 8in x 8in sensor is on the order of 100x the area of the 5D sensor, so the number of pixels is probably about the same (20M or so). To a first approximation, anyway.

    --
    I love Mondays. On a Monday, anything is possible.
  21. Lenses are going to be a problem by Cesare+Ferrari · · Score: 1

    Lenses which cover 8*8 are basically large format lenses which include leaf shutters. Leaf shutters have a couple of problems - limited size, and a limited upper speed. Typically 1/500th is the fastest a leaf shutter will operate, and the limited diameter means you typically are down to f5.6 or f8 as a maximum aperture.

    The maximum aperture will limit the speed advantage against a 35mm DSLR or medium format where f/2 and faster is common (f/1 can be achived at standard lengths if you compromise on image quality, say a noctilux). f/1 vs f/5.6 is 5 stops, or 32 times the amount of light. So an f/1 lens vs an f/5.6 will accept 32 times as much light to start with

    The usual complaint about fast lenses is the limited depth of field. However, large format at f/5.6 will also suffer this problem as the larger image format will also offer a limited DOF, but in addition, a slow lens. I guess the answer will be to run the sensor at a higher ISO equivalent, make it more sensitive, and hence allow a smaller aperture to be used, but the tradeoff isn't obvious from the specifications

    My guess is that this is a technology demonstrator, and will not be available to average punters on real cameras. Saying that an old large format camera with a 8*8 back would be very cool

    1. Re:Lenses are going to be a problem by RMH101 · · Score: 1

      Why would you need any sort of shutter on a digital camera?

    2. Re:Lenses are going to be a problem by Tassach · · Score: 1

      My guess is that this is a technology demonstrator, and will not be available to average punters on real cameras. Saying that an old large format camera with a 8*8 back would be very cool

      Large format photography has always been the realm of professional photographers and serious artists - no one else is willing to deal with the expense and inconvenience.

      A medium-format digital back (1/4 the size) goes for 10K - 35K. If this ever makes it to market, I'd be surprised if it was less than $100K. There are photographers for whom that would be a good investment, but most people will never even see one.

      --
      Why is it that the proponents of "one nation under God" are so eager to get rid of "liberty and justice for all"?
    3. Re:Lenses are going to be a problem by Cesare+Ferrari · · Score: 1

      Because CMOS sensors can't reset quickly. Why do you think any DSLR has a shutter? If they could do without they would have removed them. Although the name suggests the technology is digital, in actual fact digital sensors use good old analog techniques to capture charge based on light falling on the sensor. This is the bit which can't be reset (drained away) quickly enough when light is still falling on the sensor. The shutter really gives a black time when you can dump charge and reset things before allowing light to build up further charge.

      I believe CCD sensors can be more quickly flushed of charge, but it's still not quick enough to do without a shutter. The benefits to a DSLR of not having a shutter would be to be able to sync flash at any shutter speed. This is one area where leaf shutters are good compared to focal plane shutters (as appear on DSLRs). Hasselblad made leaf and focal plane shutter cameras, and the abilty to use the leaf lenses on the focal plane shutter cameras to give more flexibilty on flash sync.

  22. what is this? by Direktor_sp · · Score: 0, Troll

    what is this? is this joke?

  23. SPC Bragging Rights by LeadSongDog · · Score: 1

    This is obviously a stunt to show off their process controls in production. They're telling the competition (and investors) that they can make an entire 12 inch wafer worth (40) of their 21 megapixel sensors without a defect anywhere on the wafer. Of course it'll be an expensive wafer, and they haven't said how many other wafers were rejected, but it's still impressive. It marks pretty much the ultimate maturity level for that production process and tells their competition, "You won't beat us on price for this geometry, go try something else." The only applications for something like this are wide-field low-light surveillance (e.g. for asteroid hunting).

    --
    Oh, I'm sorry sir, I thought you were referring to me, Mr. Wensleydale.