Translating Brain Waves Into Words
cortex writes with an excerpt from the L.A. Times: "In a first step toward helping severely paralyzed people communicate more easily, Utah researchers have shown that it is possible to translate recorded brain waves into words, using a grid of electrodes placed directly on the brain. ... The device could benefit people who have been paralyzed by stroke, Lou Gehrig's disease or trauma and are 'locked in' — aware but unable to communicate except, perhaps, by blinking an eyelid or arduously moving a cursor to pick out letters or words from a list. ... Some researchers have been attempting to 'read' speech centers in the brain using electrodes placed on the scalp. But such electrodes 'are so far away from the electrical activity that it gets blurred out,' [University of Utah bioengineer Bradley] Greger said. ... He and his colleagues instead use arrays of tiny microelectrodes that are placed in contact with the brain, but not implanted. In the current study, they used two arrays, each with 16 microelectrodes."
how long before this evolves into something that can be used (after training the machine with direct interogation) to steal secrets from people's minds?
I mean... the movie just came out this summer.
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This is complete nonsense. The article states that it is reading the speech centers. I would assume that it has already been translated into language before this. I for one think in English, so I see no reason why any reading of my thoughts, especially just before I voice them, would not also be in English.
It uses "not new" technology to select words with 50% accuracy from a list such as "yes" and "no"...really. (Okay, it hits 90% accuracy with only two items and goes down to 48% with 10.)
In other news, you can use P300 responses picked up with a $300 off-the-shelf over-the-hair EEG receiver to select from a grid of visual stimuli at a pretty good rate and with something like 95%+ accuracy (presumably nearly 100% with the sort of training that goes into touchscreen or voice activated interfaces). Those items can be letters, words, pictures...whatever. Anything quickly recognizable. Congrats guys, you just invented a crappy version of something I can buy for $300 which requires cutting open the person's skull and implanting things on the surface of their brain.
FYI, to whoever funded this, please give the lab I work at the grant monies next time. We'll make much better use of it.
Do you think in English, or do you think in abstract thoughts that your brain then later makes you think were direct English? I think there's a bit of debate on that, and it is something that's difficult to test.
As somebody who is fluently bilingual (speaking one language at home and another while out with friends), my thoughts tend to be neither English or Afrikaans but rather concepts which are then translated. When I think I generally dont think in words unless I think about thinking in words. I'm sure many other bilingual people that speak both languages frequently can probably say something similar.
Different parts of the brain do each. A "complete thought" involves coordination among several different regions.
These folks have something which is easier to control.
The technology is 100+ years old and has been used for 80 on human brain waves.
Almost 20 years ago, work at Radford was able to guess with 70 to 80 percent accuracy which of three possibilities within three parameters (size, shape and color) was being looked at, or being imagined with and without there being an attempt to verbalize it. They used a standard 16 channel external EEG. And a dozen different subjects.
Which "speech center(s)"? There's two main regions, neither of which can do the job alone. There's the areas where the material to be translated into speech get placed, and they can be read without having to try to work around linguistic encoding. Then there's people who lose their entire speech area, but come out being able to speak anyway because of backup/trainable areas taking over the job, or simply doing it in parallel all along.
You've got to have a damn good reason to carve open a skull. Surgical correction for epilepsy is a good reason, but the brain being tested before and after the surgery is hardly one to draw generalizations from. Given that previous work bested this without cutting into anyone, this is a dead end stunt.
There is also existing technology that would do the vocalizing job, also without surgery. Adapting it to an input based on a neural net 'best guess' output after training on an individual would be trivial compared to cutting open heads. Millions of people have heard it work, on a Pink Floyd album: "For millions of years mankind lived just like the animals. Then something happened to unleash the powers of his imagination -- he learned to talk." Many millions more have heard the same person/voice narrating the video version of his book "A Brief History Of Time".
TFA is some scary shit. With all the alternatives available, safer, better AND cheaper, there's no reason to do stuff like this, and none at all to suggest that it should be used as a basis to develop a technology.
"I may be synthetic, but I'm not stupid." -- Bishop 341-B
I have a good understanding of 4 languages and speak 3 fluently (English, Dutch, French, German)
I can attest to this in a certain extend: My thoughts are often also in concepts, but the "context" of a language differs greatly and the way people express themselves in the different languages have different nuances. Often it depends on the context I'm thinking to which language I switch if I'm actually thinking in language. It feels like a post-process filter, where I sometimes conclude mid-sentence I don't have a translation for a specific word yet I'm in the process of actively verbalizing the concept or idea.
The concepts that the languages describe are not just langual but also cultural and within your demography you're "on par" with the cultural nuances to be able to communicate.
The languages I've been in contact with are a bit simular and related, but as an example the Spanish they speak in Cuba is a different one with different expressions as the Spanish in Spain, where the life-conditions are vastly different.
So for me, it seems a grand challenge to come to a "babelfish", which translates universal concepts and where brainwaves are identical to recreate the same (or simular, or derived, or local) concept or idea.
To me it seems these "thought reading machines" are just able to capture a brainwave pattern, associate a concept or word with it individually. Otherwise it would raise for me personally ALOT of additional questions and requires a readjustment of how I imagine the brain to operate and come into form through aging and learning.
I think we can keep recursing like this until someone returns 1
Do WWWWWWW and MMMMMMMMMMMM count as words?
Do you think in English, or do you think in abstract thoughts that your brain then later makes you think were direct English? I think there's a bit of debate on that, and it is something that's difficult to test.
A couple of things: when my wife switches between English and Cantonese her personality changes to suit the relevant culture. I can tell if she has been speaking Cantonese because she gets very aggressive. I think the behaviour is independent of language because sometimes she forgets to switch.
Sometimes I can have an epileptic seizure which causes me to remember spoken words in English, but this is kind of a replay from memory. I can also experience feelings which have no associated words because they were generated by a seizure. These feelings have no relationship to language.
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Lets say you have the high resolution EEG grid they talk about and you control the input to the brain by isolating normal senses and feeding in specific stimuli. Keep it running for a couple of weeks. Might be easy if the patient/subject is elderly and sick.
Can I build a model of the brain between the stimuli and the EEG? Can I use this to make a copy of the brain at a functional level?
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is when you read their words, and they just say "kill me"
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I deal with scientific stuff daily and thus I'm always thinking in a visualized concept first, words and numbers come afterwards.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
I hope they don't apply that on me. I almost only think about sex the whole day.
1. What language do you count in?
2. What language do you dream in?
Out of pure interest, If you're bilingual as a child. What language do you count in?
Most people who learn a new language as a teen or adult find it easiest to count or do maths in the first language learnt. Even when they’ve been living in their new country for several years.
I found working with numbers in Japanese next to impossible. Until I used their money, now it’s effortless. Still can’t do times very well.
Finally, What language do you dream in?
My parents did the host family thing for foreign students. After the student had stayed for a couple of months and you could see a change in fluency. I liked to ask if they had started dreaming in English yet. The ones that didn’t would hit a plateau for much longer and progression took ages. Based on 15 years of observation growing up with different students from around the world trying to learn the English.
My child is growing up bilingual. It’s nice to have some insight. - I still need to learn teh English; but that's another thing.
Like you say, it looks at the part of the brain that controls a person's mouth, lips, tongue. So it's reading how you think the actual mechanism of speech, how you move your mouth for the words.
It would be interesting to see if the brain waves for 'yes', 'no' etc. were similar in speakers of the same language, b/c the basic mouth movements are the same...
This + cellphone technology + in-ear speaker = telepathy
Score:-1, Funny
You think you think in English but I think you think in Mentalese just like everyone else.
1. What language do you count in? 2. What language do you dream in?
Afrikaans is my mothertongue so I tend to count in that but for larger numbers I probably revert to English (First 10 years of my life was spent speaking Afrikaans exclusively, second 10 years was mostly English with Afrikaans at home). If you give me a very large number in English I would be able to visualise it a bit quicker than the same number in Afrikaans, but for lower more frequently used numbers they'd both be exactly the same. Just different words for the same concepts. As far as dreams go, it depends who I'm speaking to in my dream. If its my friends I speak in English and if its at home I speak in Afrikaans.
I'm a native English speaker who used to be pretty good at Spanish (I wouldn't say fluent) but haven't used it in years, and speak a little Thai (I spent a year there in the USAF), and I don't usually think in words, either. But then, I never did, not even before learning Spanish or Thai. And like I said, I haven't used it in years and would probably be completely lost if I woke up in Mexico or somewhere.
I think mostly in pictures. I think all brains are different; some work in words, some in concepts, some in pictures, some in numbers, etc. When I read a novel, I don't even see the words; I'm there, and hear the sounds and speech, and see/smell/taste what's being described, especially with a good writer.
You can see why I no longer read Stephen King; that shit would have me in a mental hospital if I kept reading it. He writes too good for the creepy subject matter.
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I am bilingual too. (French & English)
In my head I actually do both:
-Talk to myself in English or French when I'm alone (E.g. Programing, planning, etc)
-Think in concepts and then translate to French or English when I verbalize to someone.
The later is very obvious when you know what you mean but cannot find the right word in the language you happen to be speaking in. I'm sure monolinguals experience the same but the effect is not as obvious.
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Technically, this is not reading, as in understanding, the speech centers. It's simply pattern matching. The speech center has a certain pattern of signals right before enunciating. A computer is trained to recognize that pattern and choose the appropriate word from a list.
Such a system would not be able to speak words that are not in it's training dictionary.
Moreover, the real flaw that I see is that this implementation requires that the subject actually be able to speak so that the system can be trained. There is no indication from this study or any other study that I know of to suggest that the patterns in one individual's brain would match the patterns in another individual's brain for the same situation. In fact, all current evidence is to the contrary. Everyone's brain is "wired" slightly differently and uses different synaptic patterns to accomplish the same actions.
I'm not tryhing to belittle the study, but as usual, there's a lot more hype and excitement than is justified...
Ha! Here we go. I was looking at all the posts of people who thought only in concepts and not understanding. Your post makes much more sense to me. I think mostly in words, but not entirely. Sometimes I have a moment where I have an incomplete thought, because I can't find the word I'm looking for. Right now, as I type, it feels like I'm thinking 'in my fingers.'
I am not a visual person at all. I am almost entirely an audial person. I can remember what just about anything sounds like. I cannot remember what anything looks like. If I don't see someone for a week or two, I can't remember what they look like. This applies to my immediate family and closest friends!
Having such an audio-centric memory may be why I think so much in words.
--TheOrangeSquid Is it any wonder things seem so awry? We swim in a sea of confusion and don't have to think to survive
I can see this being used to interrogate POWs!
Most people who learn a new language as a teen or adult find it easiest to count or do maths in the first language learnt.
I'm an example of that assertion. I'd also point out that numbers written out with digits are always English unless I'm really thinking about it. Reading a book or something in my head, I can read Spanish directly, but the numbers come out in English. Something like Cristobal Colón viajó en fourteen ninety-two. It definitely takes a little extra conscious nudge to translate 1492 into mil cuatrocientos noventa y dos if I'm reading the passage aloud, for example.
I had never thought about whether this was a common phenomenon or not, and it's kind of interesting to examine this fact about myself.
Russian was my first language, then I moved to Germany (age 5) and starting at age 6 German became my 'main language', in that I started thinking in it and being more fluent in it than in Russian, which I only used at home. At age 16 I set myself a challenge: think only in English! After some time, it became my thinking language, although maths were still done in German (German school, German university).
As the others, when talking in a specific language I think it, too. Recently I started forcing myself to count and do maths in English as well, and now it became effortless. At some point, I found thinking in Japanese to be quite pleasant, but as my vocabulary is rather limited I switched back to English. Really, my reasons for thinking in a particular language are convenience and aesthetics.
What I am dreaming in? Just this night I was dreaming in English; I can distinctly remember English phrases that I said.
When making personal notes, I write them down in English. Also, whenever there is a choice between English and some other language (web sites, books) I prefer the former.
Even though I've only ever been once to England for one week and have no English-speaking friends/relatives, it became my most used language. I just like it way more than my other two alternatives and it's much more practical.
I am 21 years old now and speak fluently in German, Russian, English and to a limited extent in Japanese.
Now I use Russian to talk to relatives and my girlfriend; German to my friends, acquaintances, generally people around here; English for consuming media (movies, books, internet).
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I recall reading about a device that could analyze a combination of brain waves and just-under-the-skin neural impulses to interpret sub-vocalized speech. This new thing does not sound much better and is invasive as well. (Unfortunately, I have had no luck finding an authoritative source about the sub-vocal device.)
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Supposedly this would be equivalent to a magical Babelfish translator, since brain waves cannot be language specific. However, the existance of a meta-language behind all the many different human languages of the world has never been conclusively proven. Therefore I think something is fishy with the claim.
But if the claim is true, the possibilities are staggering. Not just for stroke patients, but for anyone. Imagine being able to travel to any country and speak in their native language. It may still be a few years away, but I think it's really cool. And would it be possible to transmit thoughts that aren't even expressible in any human language? This really does sound like an exciting beginning. I remember attending a lecture by Freeman Dyson many years ago where he proposed something similar.
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...blowjob and telepathic dirty talk at the same time!