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In France, Hadopi Reporting Begins, With (Only) 10,000 IP Addresses Per Day
mykos writes with an excerpt from TorrentFreak that says the automated enforcement of France's three-strikes law known as Hadopi is now coming into effect: "The scope of the operation is mind boggling. The copyright holders will start relatively 'slowly' with 10,000 IP-addresses a day, but within weeks this number is expected to go up to 150,000 IP-addresses per day according to official reports. The Internet providers will be tasked with identifying the alleged infringers' names, addresses, emails and phone numbers. If they fail to do so within 8 days they risk a fine of 1,500 euros per day for every unidentified IP-address. To put this into perspective, a United States judge ruled recently that the ISP Time Warner only has to give up 28 IP-addresses a month (1 per day) to copyright holders because of the immense workload the identifications would cause."
So basically copyright holders in France have free reign to find out who any IP address belonged to. With such volumes of request, there's no way their validity will be questioned in any way. Likely the whole system will soon be automated.
To put this into perspective, a United States judge ruled recently that the ISP Time Warner only has to give up 28 IP-addresses a month (1 per day) to copyright holders because of the immense workload the identifications would cause
So? The ISPs will have to hire more staff to cope with the demand. This is an excellent way to create new jobs and get people back to work and help the economy recover faster.
But no, you only look at the downside :P
Summation 2
If 10% resolve to a proxy server in Korea, then what? Someone in france running a proxy server is about to get a shitload of mail.
And are the *copyright holders* tasked with identifying the same amount of copyright material, verifying it (which would presumably involve downloading a substantial proportion of it themselves, otherwise it's just hearsay - "Yes, your honour, I saw this IP address connect to this tracker asking for this file. Even though it's called "Aliens" I can't tell you the content because it *obvious* that it must be the Hollywood film of the same name"), its original IP address, the copyright holder (i.e. if they find infringing material that isn't under *their* copyright, are they obliged to notify the authorities and/or the person whose copyright it is? Surely otherwise they are deliberately ignoring a crime? That could get interesting).
It's one of those laws that'll be in fashion and then in a year's time the copyright holders will all be complaining that it's insufficient and not effective and too much work for them and they'll give up on it. Hopefully they *have* bitten off more than they could chew and ISP's therefore have to employ dozens of staff, double their broadband prices etc. to keep up and that'll provide a pretty clear economic oversight to those implementing that law and, most importantly, putting some of that burden on the ISP's.
And all for a letter dropping through the door where people reply saying "It wasn't me, my son visited/dog did it/wireless was hacked/computer caught a virus/etc." and you have to go to court to try to prove it eventually anyway (cutting off your broadband for alleged but unproven infringements sounds a pretty good way to waste the courts time too, and they take much less kindly to that).
I call BS on the 1-per-day thing for Time Warner - you're seriously telling me that your IP addresses are given out by computers, to routers with unique MAC addresses which you use for billing / service tier purposes, and you can't automate a process that matches a given DHCP lease to a given customer? Pull the other one, it's got bells on.
Or in other words, by this time next year, the media cartel with have lookup tables of every single consumer IP address owner in France, because for a population of 62 million, many of whom aren't online, or share an IP, that's all it'll take at the given rate.
Worse, because it'll be so costly for ISPs, they'll have more incentive to just assign a static IP per subscriber and create lookup tables themselves. Effectively this is the end of any amount of online privacy in France, if you connect to the net their, before long your IP and your name, phone number, home address, and e-mail address will be easily matched- what're the chances of such lookup tables staying secure and private indefinitely?
Something is going to go seriously wrong with this system one way or another, it's either going to kill off ISPs, or it's going to suffer torential backlash and be revoked, or in perhaps the worst case, it's going to make the online population of France the biggest target of tracking, identity theft, and scams in history.
THIS is why I'm voting Pirate Party next time around.
I believe P2P is only hurting sales a few percent at most and this reaction is way out of proportion.
No sig today...
There's 62277432 people in France, using the world bank 2008 estimate (See a href="http://www.google.com/search?q=population+of+france").
We generously assume that they have one Internet connection each.
With 150000 IP addresses warned every day, that's 50,000 people cut off every day (assuming the volume keeps up).
At that rate, it takes 1246 days to cut off everybody, which is fairly precisely 3.5 years.
Eivind.
Doubting the existence of evolution is like doubting the existence of China: It just shows that you're uninformed.
Ok, the US example isn't really putting anything into perspective. Here's a better way to do that.
France has a population of 60 million. If 150k letters are sent every day, then we get: 60,000,000 / 150,000 = 400. The entire population of France can be canvassed with Hadopi notices in a little more than a year.
Liberté, égalité, fraternité and all that bullshit are far behind them now.
The copyright holders will start relatively 'slowly' with 10,000 IP-addresses a day, but within weeks this number is expected to go up to 150,000 IP-addresses per day according to official reports.
150,000 names per day for a whole year is nearly 55 million names. Will the entertainment industry just skip on the rigmarole and simply do a class-action suit against the totality of the french population?
It's not the ISPs who'll suffer - they can automate the process - it's the court system.
I'd love to see 150,000 court cases brought every day, all for downloading a couple of mp3s but the sad fact is that most cases won't go much further than sending a letter or two.
No sig today...
Dear SACEM and record companies selling stuff in France,
Because of the HADOPI law and the way you treated your potential customers for the past years, because of the fact that I have to pay a "copyright" tax on every blank media I buy, and because I've been offered a guitar, I'm pissed off to the point I'll do something tangible in my life.
TV has already been replaced mostly by books, tabletop games, and a few YouTube videos every other week. As for music, I'm learning the guitar, I don't need you anymore, I won't give you my money anymore, it's over, I'll make my own music and entertain my family by myself.
Also, fuck you...
For ADSL and similar services, cutting people off is generally* done by account name on the authentication server rather than IP address. Customers' IP addresses can change on a regular basis; their account name never does. Otherwise access is disabled by disabling the port which the customer connects to. It would be quite rare to disable access by blocking their IP.
* For "generally" read "always"
They provide the IP to an intermediary state run service (named HADOPI). This service requests the ID and send the warnings and ask to close the connection at the 3rd occurence.
So media cartel don't get the final user iD.
Sig (appended to the end of comments you post, 120 chars)
ISPs will enjoy their sales dropping by 30% after a year due to this law and people getting their internet disconnected. Not only that, they have to provide the information that will result in the lost sales.
"Action without philosophy is a lethal weapon; philosophy without action is worthless."
In other news VPN providers in France reporting record profits :-)
"Free" (name of a french ISP) is sending the informations via paper mail, one sheet per request, to slow down the whole process.
had an early lead in internet douchebaggery, but in recent times the antipodean aussies made a stunning breakthrough in online dirtbag status. but its nice that the latest reigning champions of sleazy network manipulation has come to roost with the eurotrash
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
You signed up for a filthy corrupt fascist regime. This is the shit that comes with it. Enjoy.
Wonder how many false accusations will result from this operation.
LOTS. Considering how trivial it is to forge an IP address on a peer to peer network, and how simple it is to find which IP addresses are french, they are one 4chan meme away from the whole country going dark.
If someone has the IP addresses of the French parliament members, that would be a good place to start, IMHO.
It's sad to think that even when a country goes thru the trouble of killing all of their nobles, they just end up making new ones eventually.
There is a war going on for your mind.
Projects like http://freenetproject.org/ will be very very popular soon in France I guess.
Solutions like this provide:
- Encryption
- Anonymity
- Credible deniability
- Darknets
These kind of solutions do not work very fast at the moment because of the limited number of users. There was never really the need. Now there is and people will flock to it in big numbers. As the number of users start to rise, it will become very big, very fast.
Two years from now they will be in exactly the same spot, except they will not even be able to track the problem anymore. A bit of ironic justice I guess...
Wonder how many false accusations will result from this operation.
LOTS. Considering how trivial it is to forge an IP address on a peer to peer network, and how simple it is to find which IP addresses are french, they are one 4chan meme away from the whole country going dark.
If someone has the IP addresses of the French parliament members, that would be a good place to start, IMHO.
The more automated they make it, the more vulnerable it would be to this sort of thing. If it's too hard to get the personal IP addresses of French parliament members, I would imagine it wouldn't be as hard to get some IP addresses associated with various French government agencies. It may not be quite as direct and personal, but if it's the low-hanging fruit...
This article deserves some more details.
TMG, the company tracking P2P downloaders, has so far requested the identification of 800 IP addresses, not 10K yet. You should be amused to know that one of our ISPs has sent the names by fax on a piece of paper, since they have no obligation to send an electronic version.
On a global scale, things aren't as bright as the government says. What is actually condemned by HADOPI isn't downloading copyrighted material; the process they were looking wasn't accepted with such an approach. Instead, they will condemn the lack of security on people's internet connections. Of course, no proper way to secure your internet access exists yet, but a call for offer has been published month ago, asking for software projects. These security apps will basically monitor "illegal" downloads, and keep them in a secure logfile the user shouldn't be able to temper with. We are still waiting.
About the identification process cost, it has been decided that nobody would pay for it. Except us customers of course. The cost for such an ID is evaluated to 7 to 10 euros.
This whole thing basically is a very, very big mess, and most of us think that this can't really work, and that the ultimate goal is to implement DPI at ISP level in order to completely block illegal downloads.
I want a significant percentage of the population to lose their internet connections, I want them to be pissed off and I want to see the digital economy realise what a totally useless abomination Hadopi is. I want them all to point their fingers at that loser Sarkozy and the "entertainment" industry who pushed this through despite all the warnings, and I want them both to be thrown out of power and out of France.
Here's to wishing..
Sorry for the self-reply, I made a mistake... It's 150.000 per *day*, not per month! I actually calculated it right the first time and thought: "wait, that can't be right, I probably switched days and months...". Nope, I did that by mistake after that... So sadly the real calculation is:
150.000 IPs per day = 13,5 million households in 90 days = 3 months!!! So assuming the they have a lot more broadband connections since 2008 it would be around 4 months!
in just 4 months the media company will already own the personal details of *all* French households with internet!!!
Fuck, how crazy are they! The 21st century French revolution is pretty much guaranteed if people are screwed over by the millions at this pace.
This law is retarded.
So is the tax that the french pay on CD/HDD to compensate for artists losses.
So is a lot of filesharing/copyright "protection" enforcement.
But let's not forget it's illegal to download a song or movie you didn't pay for.
Yes, I know, movie studios are producing movies without scenarios, music labels are abusing artists, blah blah blah. We've heard this before.
But is "ok let's download their stuff, that will teach'em a lesson" the appropriate response? Really? I fail to see the logic here. I'd much rather punish them as consumers usually do, by not buying their sh*t. Not by "stealing" from them (yes, that's stealing, even if bits aren't really tangible (well, they are, but you know what I mean)).
Yes, I am aware this post will be modded down into oblivion as "music and movies, just like information, want to be free".
150k IPs a day does not mean they'll have 150k new IP each day. I'd rather bet it's the same old IPs from download going from one day to another (hey, those divx are HUGE ;-) ).
Besides, not everyone goes emule or p2p. So, they won't have everyone listed.
Just 2 more things to tell about it :
1) The main effect of this is that everyone wanting to keep on with their illegal activities will jump on the foreing VPN provider. That will cost them, but "hey, now i'm paying 10 bucks a month, i'll have no remorse downloading tons of those illegal material". i'd rather say it'll give money to those private provider and finally tears people that were buying to the cartels from time to time (for the price of a spotify account, i can now have films, music and warez, without being annoyed...)
2) Every other ISP in France offer a free bandwidth sharing for the people within the same ISP circle. I.e. say i'm a ISP A client, i can connect to wifi hotspots everywhere ISP A has a client with a box up and running. Point is : who is to know it was me or somebody in the street using my internet access ? (but maybe this is biaised and ISP have a mean to know)
my .2 french cents of euro
you come up accusing someone, saying they 'stole' your property, but, you dont need to prove it. accusation is enough. the burden of proof, doesnt lie on the shoulders of the accuser as it should. it lies on the shoulders of the accused. not only that, but the accuser can come up accusing with its OWN records, with no verifiable proof that those records are genuine.
morondom.
Read radical news here
after six months of Hadopi law every know French IP address has dropped off the Internet. Official are confused and worried some speculating that the entire country of France may have been stolen by aliens. Others argue that they all just found something better to do, a little wine, some bread, a pretty girl...
Si vis pacem, para bellum! For evil to succeed good men need only do nothing!
In random order:
-In fact, it's not the illegal download that is punished, but the lack of security of the connection (thus creating an obligation of result in web security), as a workaround to the fact that the IP doesn't prove that the owner of the connection is guilty
source: http://www.pcinpact.com/actu/news/57100-negligence-caracterisee-securisation-hadopi-hadopi.htm/]
-The procedure will be the same as the one for driving misbehavior (radar, fee, etc.), ie for stuff 'that are simple and evident, thus shouldn't need a trial'
source : http://www.maitre-eolas.fr/post/2009/06/18/1452-hadopi-2-le-gouvernement-envisage-le-recours-a-l-ordonnance-penale/
-If you want to contest : there are no action class in France
-Later on, the gov may do DPI (Deep packet Inspection)
source : http://www.pcinpact.com/actu/news/56726-dpi-deep-packet-inspection-hadopi.htm/
-Around 10,000 titles will be watched, and is should be half old, classic (= Michael Jackson, etc.), half recent files
It's only lost revenue if the person making the copy would have bought it. If they never had an intention of making a purchase, there was no potential for revenue gain to begin with.
As an example, say that you hear a song on the radio (which is free!) and you decide to check out the band. Their CD is $20 and has 9 songs you've never heard, plus the one you liked. You decide you won't buy the CD. Instead, you get a tape deck and record the song off the radio the next time you hear it. Now you can listen to the song whenever you want, and have managed to do nothing illegal. Replace the tape deck with a computer that downloaded the song you liked.... and suddenly you've done something illegal. There's no functional difference between the two scenarios, so why is one legal but the other isn't?
In fact, we're ALL copyright holders. Anytime you draw anything you own the copyright to it. Anytime you take a photo you own the copyright. Anytime your kid draws a crayon drawing, that's more copyrighted work... you should be proud of the fact that your kid will own the exclusive rights to that crayon drawing for 75 years after he's dead. Awesome, isn't it? Anytime you whistle yourself a tune, you own the copyright to that musical performance. If it's an original tune, then you own the copyright to the musical score. Anytime you speak, you own the copyrights to the sound you produced, as well as the words you sequenced together. Anytime you write something on slashdot, you own the copyright to it too.
This however is at best a blatant and outrageous over-generalization, could be considered an offensive omission:
Copyright holders are currently in the process of sending out tens of thousands of IP-addresses of alleged infringers to Internet service providers
No, I'm not sending any IP addresses. You're not sending any IP addresses. Who are these people labeled as "copyright holders"? I know who they are, that's the "copyright mafia".
Please, properly label these a-holes who want to protect their lavish lifestyles at the expense of us all. Saying that they are copyright holders is over generalization. All humans are copyright holders. These people the article is referring to are the COPYRIGHT MAFIA. They switched their Tommy guns for lawyers; instead of protection money they collect "distribution fees" for doing something that we could do easier without them. Instead of setting example by breaking your knee caps, they set example by suing you into oblivion. They have gotten accustomed to their lavish lifestyles at the expense of everyone around them. This is a mafia operation, not innocent "copyright holders".