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IBM Warns of China Closing the Supercomputer Gap

eldavojohn writes "China is digging a massive hole to house a computer building with the intent of usurping the United States' lead in the field of supercomputing, claims IBM. As of earlier this year, Oak Ridge Lab was beating China's Shenzhen Center. But now, an IBM representative has said to a Washington, DC forum, 'You have sovereign nations making material investments of a tremendous magnitude to basically eat our lunch, eat our collective lunch.' China has long been a contender in this regard, and Europe and Japan have similar goals to build an exascale supercomputer. To achieve this by 2020, the US will need to focus on 'co-design,' where hardware is developed in tandem with every other aspect of the computer, from applications down to optics. This isn't the first time a 'space race' style supercomputing push has been spurred by international competitiveness."

22 of 238 comments (clear)

  1. To compute what? by ciaran_o_riordan · · Score: 3, Insightful

    So everyone's trying to make a big, fast computer.

    What's at stake? What does the winner win?

    1. Re:To compute what? by AnonymousClown · · Score: 5, Insightful

      So everyone's trying to make a big, fast computer.

      What's at stake?

      Bragging rights? China beats IBM, we can no longer say that we're the most technologically advanced country and that's what I want. If that happens, maybe we'll get a boost in science education like post-Sputnik.

      What does the winner win?

      The best and brightest immigrants?

      --
      RIP America

      July 4, 1776 - September 11, 2001

    2. Re:To compute what? by lowrydr310 · · Score: 3, Funny

      Shall we play a game?

      Remember, the only winning move is not to play.

    3. Re:To compute what? by RenderSeven · · Score: 4, Funny

      Well duh! We need that kind of compute power to keep track of the debt.

    4. Re:To compute what? by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The dickwaving over who has the biggest supercomputer seems largely like hype stirred up to enhance IBM's shareholder value; but if you are going to make a dubiously sensible investment in expensive toys, doing it with borrowed money is, in some ways, preferable to doing it with real money.

      The huge debts that sovereign nations tend to rack up trigger the same moral instincts that petty consumer debt does; but it isn't at all clear that they work anything like the same way, economically.

      China: "Dear US, we are cashing in the giant pile of debt you owe us."
      US: "Shucks, China, it looks like we spent all our money on increasingly elaborate pyramid schemes and shitty exurbs that nobody wants. Anyway, thanks for all the free stuff over the years, and I hope you don't find the sudden transition from high-employment export economy to moderate-unemployment internal economy too jarring... TTLGTG!"

    5. Re:To compute what? by curmudgeous · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Bragging rights? China beats IBM, we can no longer say that we're the most technologically advanced country and that's what I want. If that happens, maybe we'll get a boost in science education like post-Sputnik.

      IBM is not an American company. They've said so repeatedly, every time they been asked about all the thousands of jobs they've off-shored.

      What they ARE, though, is a large multi-national trying to stir up fear and pseudo-patriotism in the hopes of snagging huge, profitable government contracts for projects to build things we really don't need right now.

    6. Re:To compute what? by NeverVotedBush · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You do know that Intel's biggest, best, and newest research center is in China, right? Also production facilities, I believe. Bet there are stipulations on where the processors are made if they go Intel.

      But more importantly, there are reasons to have such big computers and it isn't bragging rights. That's what the managers use to measure by and get their bonuses, but the real value in a super is what you can calculate with it.

      As they get more powerful, you can quit doing various approximations and do real calculations. Your simulations get more accurate. You can also do those simulations quicker and do more of them as you explore optimization strategies. While these computers are expensive, being able to trim years or decades off of research programs pays back many times more in first to market, market dominance, etc.

      You can do things in simulations that aren't even practical or even feasible in real life. Depending on the problem, it can be that you cannot even simulate it at all without a computer of such a scale.

      One thing to keep in mind is that the researchers who use these things, when they get more power, generally are able to make pretty amazing new discoveries. For anyone using these, the advantages are obvious. And so are the opportunites if they can get their hands on even more computing power.

      The quest for more computing power is in no way simply a bragging rights kind of thing. There are huge advantages to being able to run on the fastest computer in the world.

    7. Re:To compute what? by TheLink · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The huge debts that sovereign nations tend to rack up trigger the same moral instincts that petty consumer debt does; but it isn't at all clear that they work anything like the same way, economically.

      It should be clear and obvious they don't work the same way. After all, the US owes China in US dollars, not Euros, not RMB.

      So it's more like an amusement park owing suppliers massive debts payable in amusement park tokens (except amusement park tokens cost more to make than "electronic" US dollars).

      Or like you owing trillions in fuzzyfuzzyfungus dollars. You can create as many as you need. Sure the smart ones may never lend you money again, but maybe the smart ones wouldn't have lent you trillions payable in fuzzyfuzzyfungus dollars right? So the dumb ones might actually say "thank you!" when you go up to them and repay them :).

      As long as the dollar remains the main currency used to trade oil and other commodities, the USA gets a cheap/free ride. The people who keep saying "the USA would be better off with the gold standard" should consider this and other important factors :).

      --
    8. Re:To compute what? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's not that simple. If the USA did print enough dollars to repay the debt to China, then it would seriously inflate the dollar. That would make other people very wary about holding debts in dollars (although it would make a lot of third-world countries happy - they'd be able to repay their debts easily all of a sudden), and the USA would find it very difficult to borrow in the future, which would affect infrastructure. It would also affect the purchasing power of the average American, meaning that the cost of all imported goods would go up (in dollar terms), not just those from China. Anticipation of the last step is why a lot of large companies are trying hard to build markets in the EU, India and Russia - they don't want to be hit when Americans can't afford their products anymore.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    9. Re:To compute what? by RenderSeven · · Score: 3, Funny

      we are just going to watch it happen unless the two parties cooperate better.

      WTF!! We have two parties?????

  2. What do they exepect? by AnonymousClown · · Score: 3, Interesting
    The US doesn't have a monopoly on smart people.

    Those countries are sending their best and brightest to US universities to learn. Last I looked, they take the same classes as Americans - at least the Americans who are still studying that stuff.
    When you offshore R&D to other countries, you spread knowledge around faster.
    Why do I get the feeling the IBM is setting themselves up to receive Government handouts.

    --
    RIP America

    July 4, 1776 - September 11, 2001

    1. Re:What do they exepect? by Galestar · · Score: 4, Informative
      --
      AccountKiller
    2. Re:What do they exepect? by BigHungryJoe · · Score: 5, Insightful

      IBM is entitled to all the handouts they want - it's only the unemployed and welfare mothers that aren't entitled to handouts. Christ are you some kind of socialist?

  3. Government Bailout for IBM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    In other words, IBM wants the government to give them lots of cash so they can ship more jobs over to India.

  4. If they are worried... by lenroc · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If they're worried about China advancing in computer technology, maybe they shouldn't build research labs there!

  5. Since when does IBM care about the U.S.? by swamp+boy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Really, since when does IBM care about what happens in the U.S.? Aren't they the same company that recently told some of their top researchers that they could either move to China, Poland, or a couple of other countries on their own dime and work for 'local wages' or be out of a job?

    1. Re:Since when does IBM care about the U.S.? by klingens · · Score: 3, Informative

      Really, since when does IBM care about what happens in the U.S.?

      Since they sell the vast majority of their HPCs in the US.

    2. Re:Since when does IBM care about the U.S.? by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Let me translate IBM's statement into a more sincere, less carefully spun, form, and you'll see why an uncaring profit-maximizing multinational is wrapping itself in the flag:

      PR: "But now, an IBM representative has said to a Washington, DC forum, 'You have sovereign nations making material investments of a tremendous magnitude to basically eat our lunch, eat our collective lunch.'"

      Translation: "But now, an IBM lobbyist has said to a Washington, DC forum 'Other countries are doling out sweetheart contracts to manufacturers and designers of expensive computers. Give us a giant pile of money or the chinks win."

    3. Re:Since when does IBM care about the U.S.? by zach_the_lizard · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Ah, but they may get some coveted welfare, I mean, defense spending out of this, so that's a possible reason for it.

      --
      SSC
  6. IBM, helping China beat America by Kagato · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is the same company that sold most of it's commodity hardware business to Red China. The same company that's heavily investing in research... in China and India. The same company that continued to sell the Nazi's computing hardware used against allied forces and for managing the Holocaust via their their Brazilian unit. IBM has had a long history of selling out America in order to maximize profits.

  7. Re:Nice marketing strategy by cdrguru · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Unilateral disarmement never works. If the other side wants to compete you can either compete or forfit. There are no other options. You might think you can choose to sit out, but there is no material difference between that and forfitting.

    In theory, the USA has the greatest potential because (historically) you have had self-directed businesses that can rely on the stock market for capitialization and low taxes and low regulatory hurdles so a business can put incredible resources behind something that makes sense. There are plenty of examples of this happening where the government has stood aside while businesses gathered the capital and manpower to do really big things.

    There was no government-financed support for transistors, lasers, integrated circuits or anything that led to the technology boom from 1950 to 1980 or so.

    Where we are today is that everyone is looking to the government for direction and support. Solar power isn't practical on a large scale without massive government subsidies, so there are few businesses involved in this and some of the ones that are are pure scam. Electric cars might have a future, but there are so many regulations in place now that it is very difficult to manufacture anything involving those nasty things called "chemicals" that might get loose and destroy the environment - so other countries are building battery manufacturing plants and are fully prepared to sell the USA better, cheaper batteries while we fuss around. The result will be their batteries will always be better and cheaper.

    The US Government is pretty much at the point of saying that China can have bigger, better, faster supercomputers because we will have bigger, better and likely more ponderous social support programs. The result will be a continuing slide towards 30-40% unemployment (we're at 20% now) and everything being made outside the USA. Hopefully, there will be plenty of jobs parking cars for foreign executives who come here to dictate terms.

  8. China is capitalism as motivation for the state... by ibsteve2u · · Score: 3, Insightful

    In America, our capitalists insist that the individual's (i.e., their own) interests come before the state's and the people's, and anything that they do is justified by the profit motive even if it should hurt America. In China, capitalism is used as a motivational tool to benefit the state - with the constraint that hurting the state will result in your being gifted with some of that uniquely Chinese jewelry: A bullet behind the ear.

    Put another way, decades of observation of America taught China that you cannot depend upon "enlightened self-interest" or "their responsibility to shareholders" to keep humans motivated by greed on the high road, but if you shoot those who drift off the road you've chosen, you don't need sidewalks.

    Put another way, China weaponized trade and used American greed against us. And now such as IBM wish to complain about the consequences of their eagerness to be fabulously wealthy victims? Who built Lenovo? Little green men from Mars?

    Put another way, IBM whining about China investing in making them obsolete after a decade or two of IBM trying to make technology jobs in America obsolete is not American capitalism, it is American greed - and all that we have left.

    Put another way, America herds cats, while China trains a tiger.

    --
    Orwell: "In a Time of Universal Deceit, telling the Truth is a Revolutionary Act"