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Man Gets 10 Years For VoIP Hacking

angry tapir writes "A US court has sentenced a Venezuelan man to 10 years in prison for stealing and then reselling more than 10 million minutes of Internet phone service. Edwin Pena, 27, was convicted in February of masterminding a scheme to hack into more than 15 telecommunications companies and then reroute calls to their networks at no charge. He must also pay more than US$1 million in restitution, and will be deported once his sentence is served."

149 comments

  1. Free calls by fvandrog · · Score: 5, Funny

    Free calls for all US prisoners shortly.

    1. Re:Free calls by Lordpidey · · Score: 1

      Whats interesting, is that he could be on the phone for 19 straight years with the amount of service he stole.

      --
      Some people encrypt by using rot-13 twice. I prefer the more secure method of using rot-1 a total of twenty six times.
    2. Re:Free calls by thynk · · Score: 3, Funny

      and if those were txt messages, it would hold my teen daughter over through at least 6 months.

      --

      Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment.
    3. Re:Free calls by Wansu · · Score: 2, Funny

      More bars in more places ...

      --
      Wansu, th' chinese sailor
  2. Stupid criminal... by ProdigyPuNk · · Score: 4, Funny

    Pena is the first person to be charged by U.S. authorities with VoIP hacking, but he almost avoided prosecution. He skipped bail after his arrest, and was only captured after his Mexican girlfriend turned him in in early 2009.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again. NEVER, EVER let your girlfriend know what is going on if you are commiting crimes/running from the law/etc. It gets you in trouble every time.

    1. Re:Stupid criminal... by delinear · · Score: 5, Funny

      I've said it before and I'll say it again. NEVER, EVER let your girlfriend know what is going on. It gets you in trouble every time.

      FTFY

    2. Re:Stupid criminal... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      Most slashdotters won't ever be in that situation. (They never commit any crimes)

    3. Re:Stupid criminal... by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>NEVER, EVER let your girlfriend know what is going on. It gets you in trouble every time.

      Or you could just stay single, and refuse to hang-out with domineering women. Sure compromise is good but what difference does it make whether I take the trash out "RIGHT NOW honey!" or if I wait until tomorrow morning as I'm headed-out to work? None.

      But yeah..... stupid to commit a crime and then talk about it.
      At least wait until the statute of limitation have run out and THEN brag about it.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    4. Re:Stupid criminal... by bwintx · · Score: 1, Redundant

      Most slashdotters won't ever be in that situation. (They never have any girlfriends.)

      FTFY

      --
      Discussion System prefs link: http://slashdot.org/users.pl?op=editcomm
    5. Re:Stupid criminal... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why do you have so many bowling balls?

    6. Re:Stupid criminal... by houghi · · Score: 1

      Also never explain the plan just before you kill somebody. And if you have a secret hidaway. Pay more at people helping you with a plan and less on design.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    7. Re:Stupid criminal... by Vanderhoth · · Score: 2, Funny

      Sure compromise is good but what difference does it make whether I take the trash out "RIGHT NOW honey!" or if I wait until tomorrow morning as I'm headed-out to work?

      The difference is if I take it out "Right Now honey!", she can clean up the mess the raccoons, stray dogs and crows make of it over night.

      That gets me out of having to take it out until the next morning.

      Normally my wife and I don't argue about stuff, but when she becomes overly insistent something needs to be done right away, or in a very specific way, I'll either give her the yes dear and do it my way anyway or I'll do it her way and make her deal with the consequences. Sometimes she's right and I'm wrong or she's just lucky, but she's pretty well learned if she's going to argue with me instead of doing something herself she had better have a logical argument for it. Like wise, I've learned most of the time it's not worth arguing with her.

      I still wouldn't tell her if I was on the run. She'd probably turn me in for not taking the trash out when she told me to.

    8. Re:Stupid criminal... by queazocotal · · Score: 1

      And if she's wrong - well - you needed that raccoon suit anyway.

    9. Re:Stupid criminal... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, if she's wrong it's still your fault.

    10. Re:Stupid criminal... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indeed, look how it ended for Reiser.

      Oh... wait, that was different.

    11. Re:Stupid criminal... by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      My wife pays the price for wanting things done HER WAY. I used to do dishes. But, things weren't to her liking, so I quit doing dishes. Laundry? Ditto. You name it, if I did the chore, she had a reason to bitch and gripe. So, one by one, I just quit doing the chores. Now, she does them all, and only once or twice a month do I hear, "Well, you COULD" this or that. These days, I intentionally do this or that exactly opposite the way she would do it, LOL The really funny thing? She's had 23 years in which to train our sons the RIGHT way to do things - and failed at that too!

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    12. Re:Stupid criminal... by PoissonPilote · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This man is the true gentleman of our modern times.

    13. Re:Stupid criminal... by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>overly insistent something needs to be done right away, or in a very specific way.....

      I would first ask her "why" it has to be done immediately. If she still keep insisting, I'd tell her I already have one boss at work and don't need another at home, and if she continues in this fashion of treating me like an idiot and/or child, then I will file divorce papers later this week.

      Better to be single and happy, than married and miserable.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    14. Re:Stupid criminal... by Vanderhoth · · Score: 1

      I agree with him. If he was doing a chore, such as dishes, and she started bitching that he wasn't doing them right. Then I'd have to go with the "then do it yourself" attitude too. I have plenty of other things to do with my time and don't need to be constantly interrupted by little chores my wife wants done, but doesn't appreciate the fact that she didn't have to do them.

      As an example I'm building a set of night stands, at her request. I have all the pieces rough cut now and Saturday, after I made and helped clean up breakfast, I started planing them down for joining. No sooner had I started my wife asked me to vacuum while she did some yard work. Fine. I did the vacuuming, it only took about 20 min, and go back to the night stands. After just getting started again she comes in and tells me we need to go get groceries. So I put my planer down and go with her.

      After a trip to Staples for printer ink, the wine and beer store for fresh beer kits (I brew my own), Canadian Tire, Home Depo, Kent, WalMart and a the dollar store. We went for groceries. We come back and put everything away, then I helped her chop up stuff for our spaghetti sauce, help clean up the mess, made a late lunch for us and cleaned up after that.

      So by that time I was feeling pretty tired and not really up to working on the night stands anymore. I can guarantee you if she complained about anything I had done, I'd tell her she could do it herself from then on.

      Fortunately for me, my wife is very grateful that I'm willing to help out. So I don't mind.

      Now if she'd just stop nagging me to finish the night stands.

    15. Re:Stupid criminal... by Vanderhoth · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Better to be married, having regular sex and be happy then to be single and happy. :)

      My wife is very good to me for the most part. Sometimes she does get on my nerves when she pesters me to get things done and I wish she'd spend more time doing whatever it is she's spending the time insisting I need to do, but for the most part she gives me time to do my own thing, and really is only asking/reminding me to do my part. I get distracted and often put off doing chores so I can program, draw, work on a 3D model, do some word working, etc...

      My wife is my best friend, she's hot, I enjoy her company and the sex is great... And she's a massage therapist so it's not hard to forgive her when she's being a "Mother Hen". Besides pretty soon we'll have kids and she can use all that time, energy and training she spent on me to pester them instead.

    16. Re:Stupid criminal... by wickedskaman · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      More proof men are turning into submissive women.

      --
      Sand's overrated... it's just tiny little rocks.
    17. Re:Stupid criminal... by Vanderhoth · · Score: 3, Insightful

      More proof men are turning into submissive women.

      And by that you really mean your bitter that your Mother/girl friend/wife/female boss/little sister orders you around and instead of seeing an successful/assertive women, you'd prefer to do what you're told and bitch about them behind their backs?

      My wife does what I ask her because I respect her and do what she asks. Relationships are a two way street. Good luck getting in one.

    18. Re:Stupid criminal... by bigstrat2003 · · Score: 1

      Better to be married, having regular sex and be happy then to be single and happy. :)

      Yeah, but that's a contradiction. Everyone knows sex grinds to a halt once the marriage license is signed. :)

      --
      "16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
    19. Re:Stupid criminal... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "pretty soon we'll have kids and she can use all that time, energy and training"... "to completely ignore me and forget that I have a libido." How long have you been married, kid? A year? Two?

      See you on ILIASM in 5 years.

    20. Re:Stupid criminal... by Capt.DrumkenBum · · Score: 1

      If that is true, that YOU are not doing it right!

      --
      If I were God, wouldn't I protect my churches from acts of me?
    21. Re:Stupid criminal... by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>My wife is my best friend, she's hot, I enjoy her company and the sex is great...

      Fast forward 10-20 years and this will become, "My wife used to be my best friend but now she's constantly grumpy, she's no longer hot (she's fat), and we haven't had sex in a year..."

      As for sex: (1) it often stops being fun when the wife is demanding it after you just worked a 12 hour day and not in the mood, and (2) single people do have regular sex - remember college?

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    22. Re:Stupid criminal... by Vanderhoth · · Score: 1

      >>>My wife is my best friend, she's hot, I enjoy her company and the sex is great...

      Fast forward 10-20 years and this will become, "My wife used to be my best friend but now she's constantly grumpy, she's no longer hot (she's fat), and we haven't had sex in a year..."

      I've already been with her for 8 years. So do we fast forward 2-12 years, or will it still be 10-20? I guess it really doesn't matter, women will age the same whether their married or not. For that matter so will men and you and me by extension. Maybe my wife won't be as good looking in 20 years as she is now, but neither will I. I'd rather be developing a long term relationship so I have someone to be with when I'm in my 80's then to be in my 80's, lonely and still trying to chase after 20 year olds.

      As for sex: (1) it often stops being fun when the wife is demanding it after you just worked a 12 hour day and not in the mood, and (2) single people do have regular sex - remember college?

      I remember University and College. Yes I was able to find attractive girls who were up for casual encounters, but it was kind of a luck of the draw thing. I wasn't into the bar scene so I met most of my flings at friends parties, after which I usually found out that said fling was some psycho bitch from hell hence why she was single in the first place for said fling. Once I did sleep with a girl who had a boyfriend, which I found out later, good thing he was reasonable and decided not to pound the crap out of me, that would have been good (computer geek vs. rugby player).

      The way I have observed women is the good ones are taken, the damaged ones move from relationship to relationship leaving a trail of destruction wherever they go. Another observation is single women of my age rage (27-37) tend to go for guys whom are already in a relationship. Once they screw that up for him, the guy is expendable. To my knowledge they don't get better as they get older. Neither do single men for that matter.

      It all boils down to investing. Short term with lots of risk or a safer long term. I try to avoid short term; it's how most people lose everything they have.

  3. Interesting criminal justice system in the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Spend money 'punishing' him and then immediately deport him. Rehabilitation seems to have no meaning there.

    1. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by ProdigyPuNk · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There's millions of people that WANT to be in this country. Why would we want to keep those whom have already shown themselves to be criminals?

    2. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Rehabilitation is for commies, hippies, socialists and other worthless non-capitalists.

      If you use the evil r-word, you appear not to be tough on crime towards "upstanding" citizens and you get less kickbacks from prison corporations.

    3. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by CrashandDie · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Then why bother spending some $800k on him in the first place if he's not wanted? So the next country gets a nice guy? Yeah. Right.

      Either give him a few years and make a good citizen out of him, or kick him out of the country. Doing both is just plain stupid.

    4. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by commodore64_love · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Do you think the EU would have handled it any differently? I don't. They deport people all the time.

      I think the sentence is okay but excessive. 10 million minutes times 0.01 per minute (wholsesale) == $100,000 damage to the company. Ten years for stealing such a small amount of money is ridiculous, as is the extra 1 million fine on top of it. The CEOs stole 1,000,000 times that amount from US taxpayers and get no punishment.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    5. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...

      Either give him a few years and make a good citizen out of him. ...

      Simple deportation for a large-scale theft like this is actually somewhat of a reward if the crook had enough sense to move the money he was making off his crime out of the country.

      And if you think prisons "reform" crooks, I gotta wonder what color the sky is on your planet. 'Cuz where you're coming from it sure as shit ain't blue. "Rehabilitation" is based on the theory that the crook WANTS to be rehabilitated. Something that boneheaded could only come from a bunch of wackademics that live orthogonal to reality.

    6. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by kevinNCSU · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Maybe because "Come to our country, commit crimes, and simply get asked nicely to leave" isn't a sign we're interested in putting up? It's called a penal system for a reason. Rehabilitation has always been a tertiary goal behind punishment and deterrence. That doesn't mean it's not important, but you're acting like it's the entire point of a prison sentence, which it absolutely is not.

    7. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by umghhh · · Score: 1

      rehabilitation is only one aspect of justice system. There are others - making punishment as close to unavoidable as possible for instance makes future criminals think twice. This mechanism works quite well actually. Look at NK or Iran or any other great warrior for human rights etc for an example.

    8. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by nedlohs · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you just kick him out then you've created a whole army of criminals.

      Someone needs killin', get a Mexican or Canadian across the border and have them kill them. If they gets caught they just gets sent home anyway - to sneak back across next time you need someone offed.

      Foreigners should get a free try at robbing Americans blind, if they get away with it then they are rich. If they get caught they just get sent home just as if they never tried in the first place.

      The prison system is not all about rehabilitation - there are at least three other components:

      1. Keeping dangerous people away from society at large - clearly not an issue here since deporting does the same thing.

      2. Deterring other people from doing the same thing by showing them the potential consequences - this clearly does apply here.

      3. Retribution - just plain punishing the criminal for the sake of punishing them.

      Different places have different emphasises on each element. Some leave some out entirely.

    9. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by alen · · Score: 1

      in the US we have something called the rule of law and due process. that means if the law says you can't get kicked out just because someone thinks you did something bad, you have to be convicted after a trial

    10. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by icebraining · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why does US society owe this crook any damn thing?

      It's not about owing him anything. It's about releasing a someone who will repeat he's crimes or someone who won't. I know what I prefer.

      YOU want "rehabilitation"? Let's see what you say when a convicted but "rehabilitated" pedophile moves in next to you and your 4-year-old daughter.

      The pedophile will be released anyway. But I sure would prefer one that had psychological help and treatments to help prevent relapses than one who didn't.

      Besides, we're talking about someone who "hacked" a VoIP system, it's not exactly a violent criminal. Keeping him among violent criminals for 10 years will certainly make him so, though.

    11. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Also, rehabilitation is not a goal of the social system in place anyway. It might be a goal of the penal system, but not the system at large. Just try to get a job if you check that box on the form that says you have been in prison for a felony. That job application goes in the circular file. The end result for anyone who tried to get rehabilitated is that they can't get any work except for being a criminal when they get out. It kind of feeds the recidivism problem.

    12. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by nicolas.kassis · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So what you are saying is that the prison system is a failure. I agree with that. The idea of rehabilitate people isn't bad it's how the system attempts (well they don't even try) to do it that is the issue.

    13. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by petermgreen · · Score: 2, Informative

      Really without knowing where the calls were going to it's not really possible to put a figure on the damage. If it's geographic numbers in the USA your figure is probbablly about right, if it's mobiles in caller pays countries it could easilly be ten time higher and if it's premium rate numbers, satphones or shithole countries it could be much higher still.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    14. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by nicolas.kassis · · Score: 1

      It should be, if not prison is wasting our time. If after 10 years someone gets out and hasn't at least been given some sort of rehabilitation then those 10 years were wasted. That person will have no chance to work and move on. I'm not saying jail should be an easy ride, but they should be working on getting these people to be able to get a life after jail.

    15. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by nicolas.kassis · · Score: 1

      Well, I've seen deported people end up serving their sentence in their native country. Maybe that would be a better way to handle it.

    16. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually I'm not so sure rehabilitation is a goal of incarceration at all in the federal penal system--see 18 U.S.C. 3582(a), "imprisonment is not an appropriate means of promoting correction and rehabilitation." This strikes me as rational, for the simple reason that incarceration does not, in fact, rehabilitate people. It was an interesting social experiment, but it is time to lay that myth to bed.

    17. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by puto · · Score: 1

      And where have you seen this? Because laws aren't excactly interchangeable between countries. I sure wish I could commit some heinous crime in the states, and serve my time here in Colombia, where I get hookers, blow, cable tv, and just about anything I want. Deported people end up serving sentences for crimes they were guilty and convicvted of in their own countries when they are returned to them.

      --
      The Revolution Will Not Be Televised
    18. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by c6gunner · · Score: 2, Informative

      That's wrong - deportations usually involve hearings, but not always, and they usually don't involve convictions.

    19. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by shakah · · Score: 1

      in the US we have something called the rule of law and due process. that means if the law says you can't get kicked out just because someone thinks you did something bad, you have to be convicted after a trial.

      Are you sure about that?

      We all know about the recent case of the Canadian man who was suspected of terrorist connections, detained in New York, sent to Syria--through a rendition agreement--tortured, only to find out later it was all a case of mistaken identity and poor information...

    20. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by kevinNCSU · · Score: 2, Insightful

      A tertiary goal is still a goal. Like I said, it not that rehabilitation isn't important it's just not the entire point of a prison sentence. The GP I'm arguing with says we should just let the criminal go free since we're not going to keep him in our society. If the only point of prison was rehabilitation this would make sense. But punishment and deterrence have always been a factor is sentencing and as far as I'm concerned it should be.

      The fact that you don't want jail to be an "easy ride" makes me think that you agree, but maybe you're not comfortable admitting that we're punishing fellow human beings by taking their freedoms away and locking them in a little room. "Rehabilitation" sounds a lot more pleasant, you can sentence someone to a lot of years of that without even feeling guilty and that's why it's dangerous to think that's the central tenant of what we're doing now cause it ain't even close and never has been. Jail is serious punishment, and should not be taken lightly.

    21. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by giorgist · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What about ... let that be a lesson to all you from overseas. Otherwise ... why woudl you not cross the border and comit a crime ?
      You have nothing to worry about, they will just deport you

    22. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by kevinNCSU · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I think that means it should never be applied to promote rehabilitation. As in, you shouldn't sentence someone to prison to rehabilitate them. This is 100% correct. If rehabilitation is your main goal you send them to counseling or some other form of actual rehab, not prison. Prison is for punishment.

      That being said, however; Once an offender IS in prison to serve his punishment he should still be offered a program or help to have a chance to be rehabilitated and functional member of society once his punishment duration is served. It's just he shouldn't be sent there for that express purpose.

    23. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by Runaway1956 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Rehabilitation is a liberal concept that has no place in reality. It's something that starry eyed young women believe in. They always think they can change a guy into something better than he is. Just goes to show how effeminate the liberals are.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    24. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      I suspect that you made that up, to be honest. Citations, or I refuse to believe it. One problem with your claim is, if some guy from South America or South Korea commits a crime in the US, SA or SK courts have no jurisdiction to enforce any kind of punishment for that crime. It would just be nuts to ask them to.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    25. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Careful with those "we all know about" stories. I notice that your source doesn't name names or anything.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    26. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by Pharmboy · · Score: 1

      Either give him a few years and make a good citizen out of him, or kick him out of the country.

      Prison doesn't make "good citizens". It is, however, very effective for making better criminals.

      --
      Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
    27. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      "The pedophile will be released anyway." That's where I have a problem. An individual who poses a threat to society should never be freed. Every prisoner should be evaluated on the basis of the threat he represents. Violent prisoners and sexual predators both get special considerations - as in "No need to burden society with their presence".

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    28. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by wgibson · · Score: 0

      Simple deportation for a large-scale theft like this is actually somewhat of a reward if the crook had enough sense to move the money he was making off his crime out of the country.

      Top that off with a couple of years in prison, those offshore money are going to have grown thanks to a simple thing like interest rate ... So, the result: a rehabilitated person with a nice fat bank account deported ...

    29. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by Mister+Whirly · · Score: 1

      So if someone commits a crime in a foreign country, it is entirely up to his home country to pay for locking him up for something he did somewhere else? Yeah, that is pretty sound logic. I am sure that system would work out just great. Let's start by sending those Somali pirates back to Somalia. I am sure Somalia is willing to lock them up and pay for all of it.

      --
      "But this one goes to 11!"
    30. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by SethJohnson · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Prison has many purposes in our society.

      1) retribution: basically, punishment. The prisoner is paying his debt to society. This also acts as a catharsis for the prisoner himself.
      2) specific deterrence: The prisoner will think twice about committing another crime.
      3) general deterrence: others will think twice about committing crime when they see others being jailed for it.
      4) rehabilitation: so the prisoner can change his ways. Maybe he will learn skill for the outside world so that he need not turn to crime again.
      5) utilitarian: somply to keep the prisoner from committing more crimes.

      In this case, 2,3, and to some extent, 5 applies.

      Seth

    31. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by Mister+Whirly · · Score: 1

      So you are in favor of locking people up who you think may commit a crime in the future? And who gets to decide who will be likely to commit these future crimes? Maybe some weird looking pre-cogs floating in a pool, possibly rolling balls down with the guilty party's name on it? Sounds like a slippery slope to me...

      --
      "But this one goes to 11!"
    32. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by shakah · · Score: 1

      Does this article (or this one) help at all?

    33. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by icebraining · · Score: 1

      An individual who poses a threat to society should never be freed.

      All individuals pose a threat to society.

      The thing is, you either kill them or you burden society with an impossible number of criminals imprisoned for life. At the same time, you're losing an important number of members who can become useful citizens.

      For example, based on the Texas rehabilitation programs:

      Recidivism rates of offenders completing the Sex Offender Treatment Program, the Sex Offender Education Program, and the Pre-Release Therapeutic Community program were lower than the recidivism rates of offenders who were eligible for these programs but did not participate. For example, offenders who completed the Sex Offender Treatment Program had re-incarceration rates that were 61.6 percent lower than sex offenders who were eligible for but did not participate in this program. Also, 80 percent of offenders who completed this program and were later re-incarcerated were re-incarcerated for technical violations of their parole, not for arrests on new charges.

      Isn't it much rational to implement a rehabilitation program that has positive results in 90%+ of cases (technical violations in parole isn't exactly re-incidence), instead of creating an unaffordable system of prisons that help no one?

    34. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      http://travel.state.gov/law/legal/treaty/treaty_1989.html

      it's a "compassion" thing, letting someone spend a decade in prison nearer to their family instead of in a place where they have no family.

    35. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by davev2.0 · · Score: 1

      No, doing both is not stupid. To punish him for his crime, he is confined for 10 years then he is kicked him out of the country. And, he can never enter the U.S. legally, at all, ever. He can not enter and claim asylum. He can't even enter under diplomatic immunity because he will be considered a persona non grata and will be kicked out of the country.

      And, odds are he will not come out of prison a "nice guy". Prison rarely turns criminals into law abiding citizens. As a study of imprisoned criminals has shown, criminals have extremely high self-esteem. They literally feel they have done nothing wrong because they do not think the law should apply to them because they are so great.

    36. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You forgot..
      4. ????
      5. Profit

      Arizona is a good example of Profit.

    37. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by davev2.0 · · Score: 1

      No, it is not a waste of time. For 10 years that person was prevented from committing other crimes and was imprisoned as punishment for his previous crimes. That is not a waste of time, especially YOUR time unless you are a prison guard or a prisoner.

      As far as them getting "a life" after jail, they can get one. Most of them don't want to live a different life once they are on the outside. Most of them just want is to get back to being whatever they were before.

      What you fail to understand is that most criminals do not believe the law should apply to them. The law is for other people, not them, so they just ignore the law until they are, in their minds unfairly, imprisoned, and just wait to get out so they can do it all over again.

    38. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by davev2.0 · · Score: 1

      Was that for crimes they committed in the U.S. or for crimes in their native countries? Or, was it like the U.S. sex tourism laws where if one goes to another country to have sex with a minor, one can be charged and convicted in the U.S.?

    39. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by davev2.0 · · Score: 1

      He wasn't charged with stealing wholesale minutes. He was charged with stealing retail minutes.

      When one steals something from a retailer, one is not charged using the wholesale value the retail store paid for the item. One is charged with the retail value of the item. The same goes for this case. 10 million minutes at $.10 per minute == $1,000,000 in damages to the companies. Depending on to where the calls were made, the time per minute could be considerably higher.

    40. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by nicolas.kassis · · Score: 1

      Thanks I didn't know where it was defined but I know it happens since many canadians have been able to get a transfer until bush took office. I know of one famous cases that has been blocked in the last 10 years. A murderer sentenced to death. The Canadian gov was asking to have spend life in prison in Canada. That was refused.

    41. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know about the federal government but in Texas prison is not for rehabilitation. It is punishment. That is what the law says.

    42. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by puto · · Score: 1

      he just pulled that post out of his ass.

      --
      The Revolution Will Not Be Televised
    43. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by Antisyzygy · · Score: 1

      As far as them getting "a life" after jail, they can get one. Most of them don't want to live a different life once they are on the outside. Most of them just want is to get back to being whatever they were before.

      Citation Needed

      --
      That brings me to an interesting point, / . is just "the ramblings of socially-inept, technology-literate news-mongers".
    44. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      "61.6 percent lower than sex offenders who were eligible for but did not participate in this program." And, right there, you hit on two key bits of data that must be considered when determining who is dangerous. Eligible, but did not participate? Obviously, those individuals are quite content with the fact that they are predators, and refused any offers of rehabilitation. Which leads us to the second bit of data. The individual MUST want to change his conduct and/or outlook on life. Without a willing effort on the part of the offender, there will not, cannot be any rehabilitation. The prisoner who takes advantage of the rehab program, but doesn't feel any need to change his conduct is just gaming the system. But, then, your quoted text makes no distinction between one type of sex offender and another. A guy pissing on a bush can be labeled as a sex offender, and he was probably never a threat to anyone. Before we can put any meaning into those recidivism rates, we need to know exactly what type of offenders are being discussed. The man who "inappropriately touched" a teenaged child is something entirely different from the man who brutally rapes a prepubescent child. When someone puts all those "rehabilitated" convicts into some kind of a chart, which categorizes them according to type of offense and severity of offense, THEN we might understand how well rehabilitation works. And, finally, perhaps I didn't state my intentions clearly enough. Those who pose a clear danger to society should simply be executed. Those who pose a probable danger should be imprisoned for life. Those who are improbable dangers should be freed. Successfully completing a rehab program that has demonstrable success rates would move a man from one threat level to another, sure. But, always, if there is to be an error made, the error should be in favor of society - NOT in favor of the convicted predator.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    45. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's because "we all know about" it. I think a disclaimer should be assumed... "we all know about... EXCEPT those who are asleep at the helm".

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maher_Arar

    46. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      Yes, actually they do. I remember reading about the guy now. Sorry, I was to lazy to google for him, especially since I didn't remember his name. He seems to have been treated badly and wrongly. But, since the government hides all the info, I can't say for sure. What did the government know that I don't? I understand that Canada admits to supplying bad intel, and has settled with him for that. But, still - what did our government THINK that they knew, that I don't? And, we're right back to those stupid assed laws passed under the un-Patriot Act. Bush and Cheney led that circus, and congress still hasn't admitted that the act was a total screw up committed by a bunch of panicky old women who were afraid of their own shadows in 2001 and 2002. If the government had information that they thought was reliable, they should be willing to take it into court. Claiming that the info is to secret to be discussed in court is bullshit. Court records can be sealed and kept from the public, after all.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    47. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      Ditto nicolas.kassis thanks. I had no idea that there was such a treaty. My apologies for my previous post.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    48. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by Anonymous+Cowpat · · Score: 1

      in order of importance, 2, 4, 5, 3 & 1

      --
      FGD 135
    49. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's exactly the point. He didn't steal enough money to afford a really GOOD team of lawyers...

      Of course I can't help but cringe at the cruelty of your juxtaposition...

    50. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by CrashandDie · · Score: 1

      I'll reply to you, but the same is valid for most people who've replied to my comment:

      It's interesting to see that all of you up to this point have concentrated on the fact of kicking him out of the country only. Why?

      The whole point of the pentitentiary system is to try and get people to behave correctly, right? Well, to punish them too, but so that they "pay their debt to society". But which society are we talking about? The US or the country he'll end up in? The guy knows that he is going to be kicked out of the country, so there in his mind, he has no real gain to behave nicely, and try to understand what he did is wrong.

      What if instead of kicking him out, you left him to do his few years in prison, and then released him in the US? Now, he has incentive to behave properly: if he's not a dick, he'll be able to remain in the country. The guy obviously has skills (technical or otherwise) that could help the country if only he was encouraged a bit. He saw an opportunity to make money, and did. I know more than one person in history who did exactly the same. Heck, half the country is built on that. Some stories are more or less legal; maybe he just took the "land of opportunity" moto a bit too seriously.

      Now though, he's going to rot in jail for ten years, knowing that no matter what he does, he'll be kicked out of the country for good, and has absolutely no reason to even attempt and make his wrongs right.

      Really interesting to see that nobody thought of the "put him in prison but allow him to remain in the country". Now the nice multi-hundred-thousand-dollar "investment" your government and justice system is taking on behalf of the taxpayers will have absolute zero interest.

    51. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      You don't let him stay because he now has a criminal history, and statistically has a much higher chance of commiting a crime in the future than someone without such a history.

      Since he didn't live up to his half of the visa agreement (don't commit any felonies being part of it) booting him is the obvious choice. There are plenty of other smart people to replace him.

      So he not only committed whatever the crime was, he also failed to live up to his visa requirements.

      Do you really think he should continue to occupy an immigration spot that could instead be taken by a law-abiding person seeking a better life in America? Someone who hasn't committed a felony?

      He's in prison for retribution and for deterance, since he'll be deported we couldn't give a stuff about rehabilitation (though obviously he gets treated just as the other prisoners do).

      The marginal cost of one extra prisoner is essentially irrelevant, if he wasn't there most of that cost would already be spent anyway (need the prisons built and the guards paid since there are other prisoners, etc).

    52. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by KingAlanI · · Score: 1

      Perhaps we could at least try rehabilitating prisoners on Monday nights. :P

      --
      I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
    53. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by davev2.0 · · Score: 1

      Besides my personal experiences with criminals, the simple fact that even criminals that do get jobs often return to crime within two years. They often justify the return to crime by stating that the job they had was beneath them. Try researching recidivism and recidivism rates.

    54. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by Solandri · · Score: 1

      And for people outside the U.S., if a criminal in another country is found guilty of committing a crime, do you really just want him deported to your country where he can run around free to do whatever he wants? I don't exactly agree with the magnitude of the sentence in this case, but the U.S. had a moral obligation to lock the guy up to protect not just Americans but people in the rest of the world from him.

    55. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by Antisyzygy · · Score: 1

      Felony = Less Work Opportunities + Low Income

      Less Work Opportunities + Low Income + Reinforced Criminal Behavior in Prison = Increased Likelihood to Commit another Crime For Income

      If you put people in prison for stealing food, and when they get out they can't afford food because they can't get a job and have no useful skills, they will probably steal food again. Our prison system is not even good at preventing crimes within their own facilities. Inmates must conform to a prison society based on criminal activity or have any number of bad things happen to them. There are some people in prison that are literally un-reformable violent criminals or drug dealers, and they tend to run the prison since the guards can't or won't protect other inmates and also inmates want some sort of escape from the harsh reality (i.e. drugs) which they don't deserve (and hence either become addicted or aren't really being punished for their crime since they can just dope themselves up and not care). Inmates begin to adapt to the lifestyle so they can survive or live a bit better and these adaptations carry with them upon release. Furthermore, they can't get decent jobs upon release and end up being poor. Why not look up the correlation between lower income and criminal activity? Basically, if the prison system kept prisoners completely safe and off drugs and gave them some sort of work to do that could translate into a skill upon release, then I think we would see a much lower recidivism rate.

      --
      That brings me to an interesting point, / . is just "the ramblings of socially-inept, technology-literate news-mongers".
    56. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by BitterOak · · Score: 1

      Rehabilitation has always been a tertiary goal behind punishment and deterrence.

      Who says? First of all, saying that punishment is the main reason for punishment is a circular statement. Certainly deterrence is a goal as well as rehabilitation, but I'm not sure that all would place those two in the same order that you do.

      --
      If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?
    57. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by BitterOak · · Score: 1
      2-5, I can agree with, but your point 1 has some serious problems:

      1) retribution: basically, punishment. The prisoner is paying his debt to society. This also acts as a catharsis for the prisoner himself.

      There are three parts here, so lets deal with them one at a time. First, Saying that the reason we punish is for punishment is a circular statement. The word "retribution", which you also use, is more descriptive, but is really a nice word for "revenge".

      As to your second point, a prisoner is only repaying their debt to society if they are doing useful work in prison which more than offsets the cost to incarcerate them, which isn't even approximately the case, even when they are doing hard manual labor.

      As to your third point: let's not kid ourselves. We're not doing anyone a favor by putting them in prison. Yes, some people might come forward and confess to a crime out of a feeling of guilt, but after a couple of nights in the slammer, I'm sure the vast majority would probably regret that decision!

      But as I said, your points 2-5 are valid.

      --
      If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?
    58. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by davev2.0 · · Score: 1

      Your little "equations" are fallacies. They do not reflect reality.

      The reason the system has a hard time preventing crime inside prisons is because of people like yourself. You cry for the poor criminal. Your ilk thinks criminals stay in prison should be comfortable and they should be able to have all the comforts of home provided by the state.

      These are people stealing food because they are starving. These are people who are committing robbery, dealing drugs, etc. because they didn't give a damn about getting an education and won't work at the low wage jobs they can get.

      I am curious, do you know any criminals? Have you ever met one socially? I know several, including my step-brother.

      Correlation is not causation.

      Well, it would be easy to keep prisoners completely safe and off drugs. It would just take actions which you would protest as being a violation of the criminals rights. As for giving prisoners some sort of work, they have an opportunity to work. Many do not wish to do the work because they see it as menial. Those that do accept the work often use it to smuggle in contraband.

      You opinion amuses me because it is in line with the way of thinking in the 60s and 70s: soft on crime, soft on punishment. The result was increased crime and increased recidivism. It was based on the idea that criminals have low self-esteem. No one ever examined or tested the proposition, the loud proponents just assumed they were right. When someone finally got around to examining the idea, he found that criminals have such high self-esteem that they are narcissists. And, when those criminals got out, they just went back to committing crimes, both new types and what put them in prison in the first place.

      Your opinion is not based in reality. It is, in fact, worthless. Go out and get to know some criminals. What what they say and do. See how almost all of them slide, of their own desire, right back into their old lives of crime as soon as they get out of prison. Then, you can come talk to me about crime and punishment. Most of them aren't afraid of being caught because the U.S. is soft on crime and the odds are against them getting caught soon. And, if they are caught, their is a good chance they will be back on the streets in a few weeks if not sooner.

      I know someone who was arrested for grand theft, lying to a pawn broker, and dealing in stolen property while he was on probation for delivering drugs. He was sentenced to less than a year in jail and completing in-jail drug treatment. He got out a few weeks ago and is already working on dealing drugs again. Not because he can't get a job, but because he doesn't want a job. He hasn't even tried to get a job.

      Until you can say you know some criminals, please just keep your mouth shut about these things of which you are obviously ignorant.

    59. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I get the feeling that the US "Justice" system has never been about actual "justice", let alone rehabilitation.
      It's appears to be much more about retribution and the business of prisons than anything else.
      Justice is about fairness and equality. ie' If someone steals $10 from you, then they are forced to repay you $10, plus another $Xs for your time and $Xs for the system costs. At the other end, if they kill someone then they are removed from society for a period while receiving "rehab" so that they don't kill when released.
      If someone attempts to steal $10M, they shouldn't get 10 years just because someone is pissed at them. Hell Bank executives don't get 10 years and I AM pissed at them and am POSITIVE that they are just stealing from me.

    60. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      unfortunately, you can also add:
      6) prevent the offender from getting legitimate work, now that he has a record
      7) give the offender lots of time to think about how he got caught, and how to prevent that next time
      8) put the offender into long term contact/exposure to a wide variety of criminals.

    61. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>10 million minutes at $.10 per minute == $1,000,000

      The retail rate on Vonage is only 2 cents, and you would have discovered that if you'd done even minimal research. 10 million * .02 == $200,000 so I still consider the punishment to be excessive.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    62. Re:Interesting criminal justice system in the US by davev2.0 · · Score: 1

      But, that is not the retail rate of the companies he hit. If you had bothered to read the fucking article you would know that.

      The value is determined using the retail price from the place one steals from, not from some random store. If one steals a diamond necklace from Tiffany's which Tiffany's sells for US$1,000.00, it will not matter if Uncle Joe's Discount Jewelery sells the exact same necklace for US$100.00, the value of the diamond necklace used to determine charges and restitution will be US$1,000.00.

      Understand it yet, or do you need a more simplistic explanation?

  4. Got what he deserved by suso · · Score: 0

    Nothing really to see here. move along.

    1. Re:Got what he deserved by CrashandDie · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Except for the fact that the US judiciary system fails, once again? Not only are they spending a few hundred thousand dollars on making him pay in prison, his sentence his heftier than what a good bunch of rapists and cold blooded murderers would get, but after the supposed rehabilitation process, they're kicking him out of the country.

      Being blind doesn't mean there's nothing to see, it just means there's something wrong with the way you see things.

    2. Re:Got what he deserved by Custard+Horse · · Score: 1

      Rapists are unlikely to be able to provide IT support in the 'Big House'. If he can score some free VOIP time whilst he is there, it can save a packet for the prison services.

    3. Re:Got what he deserved by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except for the fact that the US judiciary system fails, once again? Not only are they spending a few hundred thousand dollars on making him pay in prison, his sentence his heftier than what a good bunch of rapists and cold blooded murderers would get, but after the supposed rehabilitation process, they're kicking him out of the country.

      Being blind doesn't mean there's nothing to see, it just means there's something wrong with the way you see things.

      Riiight.

      What's your solution?

      Let him come to another country, commit crimes, then just send him away with a, "Please don't be so naughty" warning?

      How's it feel being so damn blind you walk into lamp posts all the time? Or do you REALLY think you're so superior even though you haven't done anything other than throw rocks? You sure haven't proposed any other solution.

      But YOU'RE so much better than us poor souls that aren't so blessed to be YOU. Oh no, we have "something wrong with the way [we] see things", but YOU - YOU'RE so much better because you're not "blind".

      What an arrogant ass you are.

    4. Re:Got what he deserved by icebraining · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Use electronic tagging. Help him get a job (any job, even crappy, he doesn't get to choose, obviously), subtract X% every month to make him pay the money.

      Advantages:
      1) Costs less money - he pays for his own bills, like food and electricity, and can pay X per month to support the tagging system
      2) At least some of the money will actually be paid back
      3) He won't live among violent criminals, which would probably make him one.

    5. Re:Got what he deserved by sjames · · Score: 1

      So a slave labor force to drive down wages?

    6. Re:Got what he deserved by icebraining · · Score: 1

      No, they get paid full price by the company they work for. Part of it just never reaches their hands.

      It already exists in law, it's called garnishment.

    7. Re:Got what he deserved by sjames · · Score: 1

      Except thjat you said they don't get to choose and it'll be a crappy job. No choice of job and don't get to keep the money is slavery (if not, then what essential feature of slavery is missing?).

      By forcing them to take a crappy job, you prevent it from remaining unfilled such that the employer would have to offer closer to what it's actually worth, so you drive wages down. Some employers might take to routinely offering inadequate wages for the least desirable jobs and depending on prison labor to fill them.

    8. Re:Got what he deserved by icebraining · · Score: 1

      I said they don't get to choose. I didn't say the selection method is "the first that falls on their lap". The justice system should prevent that from happening, by for example getting public jobs to those for whom a job with non exploitative pay can't be found.

    9. Re:Got what he deserved by sjames · · Score: 1

      That may be the intent, but you can bet the crazy sheriff in Az (the one with the tent city and the stale balogna sandwiches) will quickly pen a sweatheart deal with someone to make sure the prisoners "get what they deserve". There's more than one like him.

      Keep in mind, this is the same justice system that can't manage to prevent violence, rape, and murder in a maximum security prison where nobody has any expectation of privacy at all. They can't even keep drugs and alcohol out.

      Of course, if they actually DO succeed in their mission, law abiding people who couldn't find a job with non-exploitive pay might wonder if perhaps crime is the answer.

      Of course, if there was less of that out there, there might be less crime now.

    10. Re:Got what he deserved by icebraining · · Score: 1

      Of course, if they actually DO succeed in their mission, law abiding people who couldn't find a job with non-exploitive pay might wonder if perhaps crime is the answer.

      Remember they the companies would pay a decent salary, but a large chunk would be taken away by the justice system before it reached their hands. They'd keep the minimum necessary to pay for housing and food.

      If it's possible to implement it, I have no idea. I'm also not from the US, so I don't have a clear picture of the justice system there.

    11. Re:Got what he deserved by sjames · · Score: 1

      While there are conscientious people doing a difficult job because they genuinely believe it is good for society and ultimately for the individuals involved, and others who are basically decent people just doing a job because everyone needs one, there are also far too many people who gravitated to corrections because it's the only way they could exercise their hateful and sadistic or narcissistic personalities without ending up in prison themselves. Unfortunately, some of the prisons are run by the latter type.

  5. Why bother serving sentence? by danking · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The one thing I don't understand is why have him actually serve his sentence? Doesn't this just cost people more money in the end. It may be worth while to have him stay until he has re-payed the $1 million, assuming he even has the ability to re-pay the money but why not just deport him right away.

    1. Re:Why bother serving sentence? by ciderbrew · · Score: 1

      A bit like nursing a person back to full health, just to hang them. Of course it costs more money; but that money does go towards a lot of jobs. It's fake economy employment money.

    2. Re:Why bother serving sentence? by delinear · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Well jail time is theoretically about rehabilitation, but in practice it's about deterrence. It wouldn't deter anyone from following in his footsteps if he was sent home without serving jail time (I think the $1m repayment part is just wishful thinking). Mind you, how do you rehabilitate someone whose crime is purely financial in a society that's largely focused on the pursuit of money, or prevent others copying him? In that case his "crime" was merely being caught, and every criminal assumes he's smarter than the last guy and won't get caught, so the effectiveness of such a sentence even as a deterent is doubtful.

    3. Re:Why bother serving sentence? by commodore64_love · · Score: 1

      >>>A bit like nursing a person back to full health, just to hang them..... that money does go towards a lot of jobs

      You mean like smashing windows to create jobs.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    4. Re:Why bother serving sentence? by umghhh · · Score: 1

      Just where did you get this idea that isolation is only about rehabilitation? It has always the deterrence effect even if not always strong enough.

    5. Re:Why bother serving sentence? by bigrockpeltr · · Score: 1

      You mean like smashing windows to create jobs.

      :%s/sm/b
      I saw what you did there!

      --
      $ unzip, strip, touch, finger, grep, mount, fsck, more, yes,fsck,fsck,fsck,umount, sleep
    6. Re:Why bother serving sentence? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Just where did you get this idea that isolation is only about rehabilitation? It has always the deterrence effect even if not always strong enough.

      We have had prisons for many years, yet people still commit crimes. Clearly it is not strong enough. Of course, there is an applicable saying... share our wealth with us, or we will share our poverty with you. The people running the telecoms he's stealing with are probably sleeping on a big bed of money. The average income in Mexico isn't worth digging out of the couch cushions in this country. No one should be surprised when this sort of thing occurs when some people waste more than some other people live on.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    7. Re:Why bother serving sentence? by petermgreen · · Score: 2, Insightful

      We have had prisons for many years, yet people still commit crimes
      True enough but the real and largely unanswerable questions are

      1:How many more would commit crimes if there were no consequences to doing so?
      2:Is locking people up the best type of consequence to use for deterrance purposes?

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    8. Re:Why bother serving sentence? by men0s · · Score: 1

      We have had prisons for many years, yet people still commit crimes. Clearly it is not strong enough.

      I believe the problem lies with the actual system, not just the prison. If every crime was given an appropriate penalty (fine, jail time, community service) and was doled out swiftly, it might work. It's just like training a pet: you have to use the stick (or squirt bottle) at every moment that it should be used.

    9. Re:Why bother serving sentence? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I think that both are the problem. There is no reason for Prisons to be rape factories (As they are in the USA) or murder factories (as they are in many, many places) or disease factories (as they are nearly everywhere.) Similarly, lots of people are imprisoned for profit; especially in the USA, where pork and privatized prisons produce profits, and in China, where forced labor produces profits. So yes, "the system" is ultimately culpable. Which is to say, every one of us.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    10. Re:Why bother serving sentence? by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      Why not deport him right away? Because if we did that would essentially be putting a sign that says "come to the US and commit a crime - and get off scot free if even if found guilty." This time it was phone minutes, what might it be next time?

    11. Re:Why bother serving sentence? by sjames · · Score: 1

      Based on financial crimes committed and the punishment doled out, I'd say his mistake was thinking too small. Had he done a trillion dollars worth of damage to the economy, through the Federally approved derivatives fraud, he could have actually gotten a handout from the government.

  6. What's wrong with that? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    It's serious crime. Just because murderers get the same sentence doesn't mean it's a bad sentence. The murderers should get more, not him less.

    1. Re:What's wrong with that? by Chrisq · · Score: 1

      It's serious crime. Just because murderers get the same sentence doesn't mean it's a bad sentence. The murderers should get more, not him less.

      In the view of the current legislature it comes somewhere above killing your grandmother but below burning the qur'an.

    2. Re:What's wrong with that? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      And all of that is below file sharing copyrighted material. $1 million is restitution? That's barely 1 copyrighted song.

    3. Re:What's wrong with that? by Starfleet+Command · · Score: 1

      Thank you, that made me LOL

    4. Re:What's wrong with that? by Jurily · · Score: 2, Funny

      $1 million is restitution? That's barely 1 copyrighted song.

      Funny because it's sad.

  7. Headline by jra · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "Man gets 10 years for felony commercial theft of service".

    There. FTFY.

    No hacking involved here; nothing to see; move along.

    1. Re:Headline by t0p · · Score: 1

      Unless you refute the idea of "theft of service". His "victims" claim he cost them $1.4 million. How did they lose out? Because he sold bandwidth that they weren't even using at the time?

      And this $1 million "restitution" he's supposed to pay. WTF? Sad world, people. Sad world.

      --
      http://ihatehate.wordpress.com
    2. Re:Headline by c6gunner · · Score: 0, Troll

      His "victims" claim he cost them $1.4 million. How did they lose out? Because he sold bandwidth that they weren't even using at the time?

      You're not using your living-room sofa for sleeping on, so I'm going to rent it out to a Mexican migrant for a few hundred a month. Hope you enjoy the company - I know I'll enjoy the cash.

    3. Re:Headline by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      What you really pay for with a telco is for them to keep sufficiantly above the average use that the chance of failing to get through due to overuse is kept very low. If the average use goes up then the amount of capacity that needs to be provisioned to maintain a reliable service also goes up.

      Plus it is very likely the victims will have had to pay other telcos to pass those calls on to thier destinations. This could easilly run to a lot of money depending on the destinations called (IIRC there are some destinations that cost over a dollar a minuite, even if these are only a small percentage of call time they could easilly end up as a large percentage of the damage).

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    4. Re:Headline by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is common practice for businesses to exaggerate the losses caused by theft / criminal damage etc. Often this is done for insurance purposes or to seek damages in a lawsuit. In both instances you expect to be screwed down to the minimum, and by overestimating the losses you end up with a fairer result somewhere in the middle. Unfortunately this is often abused to ridiculous proportions, and these days big corporates more often than not end up getting awarded the full damages claimed instead of a more realistic amount.

  8. Should he be... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... slapped? Yes. Should he be kicked in his balls and pay back every cent that he cost 'em carriers? No doubt. But 10 Years in Prison??? There are murderers that serve a shorter sentence!

    1. Re:Should he be... by JustOK · · Score: 1

      You mean some murders get more? That's horrendous. Nothing is more serious than stealing money from a company.

      --
      rewriting history since 2109
    2. Re:Should he be... by Guppy06 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "There are murderers that serve a shorter sentence!"

      Name one person who was found guilty of murder in the US who got a shorter sentence.

    3. Re:Should he be... by KingAlanI · · Score: 1

      Perhaps he's thinking of murderers who get off on what's technically reduced to a manslaughter charge?

      --
      I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
    4. Re:Should he be... by Guppy06 · · Score: 1

      And killers are the only ones who plea-bargain to a reduced sentence?

      If the parent wants to compare apples to apples, he's going to have to go by murder convictions, and not just hearsay that was never presented to a jury.

  9. Computer Fraud and Wire Fraud, Some Hacking by eldavojohn · · Score: 5, Informative

    "Man gets 10 years for felony commercial theft of service".

    I believe the actual charges were one count of computer fraud and one count of wire fraud. Which has a pretty serious maximum punishment.

    There. FTFY.

    No hacking involved here; nothing to see; move along.

    Well, I don't know if I'd agree there was no hacking involved. It sounds like he used someone in Washington state named Moore to run port scans on all the big routers for VoIP hardware. Moore (serving two years) would then brute force attack these routers for login information. Pena dumped Moore twenty large and then acted as a salesman. After selling the phone service, Pena would reprogram the vulnerable networks so they would accept his rogue telephone traffic. Pena didn't seem to do much hacking, Moore was apparently just a brute force hacker that preyed on stupid VoIP companies who used four number prefixes as passwords.

    I think the general public considers port scanning and brute force attacks to be hacking. At least the news reports it as such.

    --
    My work here is dung.
    1. Re:Computer Fraud and Wire Fraud, Some Hacking by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I think the general public considers port scanning and brute force attacks to be hacking. At least the news reports it as such.

      You wouldn't?

      I mean it's the most surefire way to get into a system. May take a while but if you can set up an attack that no one notices, you've got all the time in the world to go work your job, spend time with the wife, work up that Alabi, etc etc.

      People have considered much less to be hacking. Some think that when you use social engineering to discover the answer to someone's secret question to access their twitter account that it's hacking... At least a port scan is something you wouldn't know about if you didn't at least have a basic understanding of how computer networks work.

    2. Re:Computer Fraud and Wire Fraud, Some Hacking by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      I think the general public considers port scanning and brute force attacks to be hacking. At least the news reports it as such.

      You wouldn't?

      Of course not, because this isn't a criminal that Slashdot can find some way to glorify. Do the same thing to DoD computers, and you'll be a hero here.

    3. Re:Computer Fraud and Wire Fraud, Some Hacking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yeah i remember that case, i actually knew moore as i had tested some of his software years ago. he had some interesting tools under his belt including a global brute force program. his website is www.moorer-software.com. he also had a nice program that sent a large number of messages over net send in a few seconds. and i think he had a program that did DoS attacks by just eating up bw. well from his website he is now living at home again but i remember seeing an article in one of the IT magazines about security and his name was mentioned.

  10. You know what gets me? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The man is obviously very capable and smart and for that he is getting punished instead of the telecom companies who let this happen in the first place.

    1. Re:You know what gets me? by tehcyder · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The man is obviously very capable and smart and for that he is getting punished instead of the telecom companies who let this happen in the first place.

      He is being punished because he committed a crime, not because he's a clever geek.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    2. Re:You know what gets me? by interval1066 · · Score: 1

      Still, it was a clever hack. I mean come on...tip your cap just on the technical aptitude. And of course I'd never do it, but stealing from the telco is like, well, stealing from the telco.

      --
      Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
    3. Re:You know what gets me? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He is being punished like that because phone companies shit money and have very good lawyers. I mean he deserves punishment but doesn't 10 years seems too harsh?

  11. The Geek and White Collar Crime by westlake · · Score: 1

    The one thing I don't understand is why have him actually serve his sentence? Doesn't this just cost people more money in the end.

    It may be that Slashdot has made me cynical.

    But always seems to come as a surprise to the geek when one of his own is sentenced to do hard time.

    Ten years is meant to hurt.

    To teach a lesson.

    To warn others like you not to take this path.

    In the American federal system, economic and property crimes with an interstate dimension are a federal responsibility - and they are never taken lightly.

    The Enron executive learned that much.

     

  12. sounds fair by bsDaemon · · Score: 2, Funny

    that's only like ~30 seconds in jail for each minute of phone service he stole. At least they didn't sentence him to full price.

  13. Que PENA Amigo! by xtracto · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Well "Es Una Pena" (it is a SHAME) that he committed such a crime, but it is also shameful that none of the several articles mention his real last name which is PEÑA (with an Ñ).

    let's see how /. copes with that... *click preview*

    It seems ok..

    --
    Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
  14. lol by pupdogg · · Score: 1

    i think i found this latin guys arraignment video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EiFQYadyQk ...no wonder he got 10 years!

  15. FBI Datacenter Raid, Telx 2323 Bryan, DALLAS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I wonder if this is the datacenter raid guy.

  16. Deporting? by dcroxton · · Score: 0, Troll

    How inhumane, deporting the poor man! This is just like those fascists in Arizona who want to send undocumented immigrants back to Mexico.

    --
    Sincerely, Derek

    A curious little blog
  17. Jail Time? by lymond01 · · Score: 1

    Why not make him pay the money back, then deport him.

  18. Re: Man Gets 10 Years For VoIP Hacking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Serves the bastard right, MooreR for ever!

  19. All I ask... by KingAlanI · · Score: 1

    With parents (yers, I'm a Mom's basement /.er), I don't mind the chores so much as the specific timescale and method in which to do them.

    --
    I listen to both RIAA and non-RIAA stuff if I like the music, tangential business/politics nonwithstanding.
  20. Hacks VOIP? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I guess if anyone at DIA had any brain power at all they would give him a job with a big salary instead of jail time. It seems that inovation and discovery are not being rewarded so why not burn down the bastards to make a buck? Our best minds and efforts are being turned to criminal ventures cause all the money is there.

  21. two for one. by mr_java66 · · Score: 0

    10 yrs = ~5 Million minutes.
    He'll get one minute in jail for every two minutes stolen.
    Almost enough time to call everyone involved and apologize. ;-)