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Giving the Blind Better Web Access

crimeandpunishment writes "Decades ago, the breakthrough for the disabled was making buildings wheelchair accessible. Today, it's making their world Web-accessible. Disabled groups are hailing new legislation Congress has sent to the President. Among other things, the measure will give the blind greater Internet access through smart phones, and require devices like iPhones and Blackberrys to be hearing-aid compatible. 'It breaks down barriers for all of us,' says Mark Richert of the American Foundation for the Blind."

25 of 168 comments (clear)

  1. New blacktop for the road to hell by elrous0 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    These sorts of well-intentioned pieces of legislation are the kind of thing that ostensibly are for our betterment and they always look great on paper. But when you're actually have to design a website and you start running into the requirements of Section 508 and other such well-meaning laws, the feel-good shine wears off fast. Inevitably they mean considerably more work in the best case scenario, and a "dumbing down" of a website in the worst case scenario (if you follow the "suggested" best-practices). You can look at the "cultural heritage" laws in Quebec as an example of where good intentions can go. It starts off with a noble goal of not excluding French-speakers from public life, and eventually leads to something like Bill 101, which all but outlawed English in the region, complete with a language gestapo.

    I'm all for the blind being able to use the web. But wouldn't it be much better to approach the issue as a technological one on the viewer's end, and not a legislative one on the designer's end? I would much rather be asked to do something that TOLD to do it, under threat of law.

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    1. Re:New blacktop for the road to hell by Peach+Rings · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This used to be a really evil thing, but now it's a blessing in disguise. The right way of making a web page (nice clean <p>s and unordered lists, alts on all the images, styled with CSS) is extremely accessible. The more people do that, the better!

    2. Re:New blacktop for the road to hell by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm at a conference about accessibility right now and I was just looking at the giant display of the history of disability, so I'm getting a kick out of your post.

      Seriously, without legislative mandates pushing this kind of thing, the disabled will just continue to be overlooked by the big vendors and ripped off by small vendors. We are doing things with iOS 4 and iPad for $4-600 that a year ago we had to spend $5000-7500 on.

      With a law forcing this, the tech will get cheaper and better.

    3. Re:New blacktop for the road to hell by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 4, Informative

      Will we all be stuck with text only websites, which is what Section 508 virtually sets up as the ideal.

      No. It's called graceful degradation. You can have all the fancy shit you want but your webpage should be a coded in a way that if certain features aren't available that it gracefully degrades into a simpler form.

    4. Re:New blacktop for the road to hell by DragonWriter · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm all for the blind being able to use the web. But wouldn't it be much better to approach the issue as a technological one on the viewer's end, and not a legislative one on the designer's end?

      The technological problem on the viewer's end is largely solved, so long as existing web standards and best practices regarding separation of content and presentation are adhered to.

      Aside from technology that essentially cures blindness, though, your never going to get a technological solution on the viewer's end that deals with the choice to use inaccessible presentation as the only way of getting at the content on the designer's end.

    5. Re:New blacktop for the road to hell by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Exactly. The only people who are whining about stuff like this are the idiots making whole websites entirely in flash or who don't know how to follow best practices for web development. Making a website accessible to text readers, etc is extremely trivial if you follow web standards.

    6. Re:New blacktop for the road to hell by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 2, Interesting

      > and require devices like iPhones and Blackberrys to be hearing aid compatible.

      Ummm, why not require hearing aids to be Bluetooth compatible?

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    7. Re:New blacktop for the road to hell by biryokumaru · · Score: 2, Interesting

      What if you did it with OCR on images pulled from the GPU? Then you can literally read everything, from the text that shows up in the HTML between tags, to text in images, to text in flash. Heck, it would read street signs in people's pics on Flickr. And no one would have to make anything on their webpages special for blind people.

      --
      When you're afraid to download music illegally in your own home, then the terrorists have won!
    8. Re:New blacktop for the road to hell by SirGarlon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Agreed: Handicapped accessible == machine readable. For too long has the Web been dominated by marketing people who care everything about controlling the "visual experience" and just don't get the concept of separating layout from semantics. If you grok HTML and CSS then I fail to see how an accessible design costs a whole lot more than a non-accessible one. Well, aside from the fact that CMS designers don't seem to give a damn about accessibility or standards compliance either.

      Disclaimer: this comes from a guy who works at a company whose idea of putting information on the Intranet is to post a link to a Word document. *facepalm*

      --
      [Sir Garlon] is the marvellest knight that is now living, for he destroyeth many good knights, for he goeth invisible.
    9. Re:New blacktop for the road to hell by hedwards · · Score: 2, Informative

      Designing websites that are accessible to the blind, is not that difficult. Pretty much all of it is already covered in best practices. You know things like always giving your images an informative alt text, not using frames, avoiding flash for navigation, avoiding flash for presenting materials that don't need to be visual etc.

      It's really not that big of a challenge, and really most of that ought to be already happening on the site anyways.

    10. Re:New blacktop for the road to hell by captain_dope_pants · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well said sir ! Just about every site I create is made as accessible as possible - especially those offering services / goods. If you're offering something, especially in a niche market, then if your site is the one that blind / visually impaired users can use then you'll be the one selling your stuff. Obviously some people want flashy (or flash :| ) sites but I try to dissuade them unless there's a good reason for it. Not saying there ain't a place for fanciness but lots of sites seem to be design led rather than action / results led. Dammit - that last bit looks like a bit of a rant, but sod it - it's staying in ;)

      --
      while (true != false) process_more_stupid_code();
    11. Re:New blacktop for the road to hell by biryokumaru · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Believe it or not, most "blind" web users can, in fact, see. They can't see well enough to read, but definitely well enough to draw boxes around what they want to read. Seriously, check out what qualifies as "blind."

      --
      When you're afraid to download music illegally in your own home, then the terrorists have won!
  2. More than just the blind... by codegen · · Score: 3, Informative

    It also has provisions for CC or subtitles for the HOH/deaf. This has me hoping. Despite the fact that most of the players support CC, the online video/movies seem to ignore it. It strikes me as odd that every DVD has either CC or Subtitles (they have to by law), but only 18 movies in the Sci-Fi/Fantasy catetory at the itunes store have CC.

    --
    Atlas stands on the earth and carries the celestial sphere on his shoulders.
    1. Re:More than just the blind... by Yvan256 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And those subtitles are not only useful for the HOH/deaf, they're useful for people trying to watch foreign language movies or just let us understand actors with a thick accent.

  3. Not about the "web". by Animats · · Score: 2, Informative

    This has nothing to do with the Web. It's about telephony in its VoIP form, broadcast content redistributed over the Internet, and mobile browsers. It doesn't affect web sites. See S.3304.

    1. Re:Not about the "web". by quanticle · · Score: 2, Informative

      The house counterpart is worded a bit more broadly. It would extend the provisions described to cover text based messages as well.

      --
      We all know what to do, but we don't know how to get re-elected once we have done it
  4. Screw that, give them access... by MoldySpore · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ...by investing in tech and science that can make them see it with their EYES!

    While it is nice to see the gov't pass laws like this, it would be even nicer to see them put up the funding for developing the tech/science further behind studies like the one I linked to. Or lifting the ban on stem cell research so that we can really get on track with giving back the senses that have been robbed from so many people, among other things.

    --

    "I hope you know how very lucky you are to know me, because I am so incredibly incredible."

  5. Re:Can't we just delay for a bit? by hedwards · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It's really not that hard, put a blind fold on and use a screen reader. Of all the disabilities out there, blindness is one of the easiest to simulate.

  6. Analytics reporting blind users? by snsh · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Google Analytics tells me that I got 20k visitors yesterday. Four of them used NS4. 1500 of them used IE6. There are few NS4 users that I honestly don't care how my site renders in their browser. There are enough IE6 users that I do have to care how my site renders in their browser.

    How can I get Google Analytics to tell me how many of my visitors are blind and using screen-readers?

  7. Re:Breaking down barriers? by guruevi · · Score: 3, Informative

    How would it put up barriers for anyone creating web content? All blind people need is for the webpage to be correctly coded according to the HTML specs and not have the important content in a fancy JavaScript that alters the DOM after the page has loaded (although web readers can usually put up with it). It would break down barriers not only for blind people but also for computers and browser makers as well as the general public, open source operating systems (no more IE-only websites) etc. etc.

    As for devices, Apple's Mac OS X is compatible with most screen readers and braille keyboards, even the iPhone has some fancy accessibility built-in, Apple does a really good job at making it accessible from the get-go. Even Windows and most Linux distro's have accessibility built-in although a lot of applications could use some shining up in that area (hot keys being one of them and again, not putting main content in obscure places).

    --
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  8. I am all for just by Shivetya · · Score: 2, Informative

    pumping plain text to anyone identified coming to my website as impaired.

    It is the safest route to follow. Any attempt by me or other others to gracefully handle it only will invite lawyers whose occupation is find those who slip up while acting on good intentions. No, take it to the minimums required and forget it. This is a far different issue than handling weaker devices. You are not up against a finite thing, that is what a device is capable of, your up against a new infinite, what the impaired user thinks they can accept. You can't win except by going for zero.

    Been there, done that, you won't believe the crap with ADA my cousins have been hit with at a bakery/cafe. There are people out there whose only business is to use laws like to make money, they could care less that you finally complied, they want money.

    The flip side is, perhaps we will get back to deliver information instead of delivering effects. I am so tired of websites that make me work for the content

    --
    * Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
    1. Re:I am all for just by Zerth · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Here's one: Tom Mundy and his lawyer Morse Mehrban both make an estimated $300,000 a year suing small businesses

      Mundy says he has filed more than 150 lawsuits in 18 months demanding damages from small businesses in violation of the exacting requirements of the Americans with Disabilities Act.
      [...]
      Mundy, a beefy ex-contractor with longish brown hair and a daily routine of dining out and enjoying the ocean, spies an 8-inch concrete platform on which a woman in a dark-green sari has set up a table of sunglasses under an awning.

      "There's nothing in there that I'd want to buy but this might be of interest to a judge," 50-year-old Mundy, a paraplegic since a 1988 motorcycle accident in Maryland, observed with a knowing air.

      [...]
      "Confined to a wheelchair in California?" Mehrban asks potential clients on his website, www.mehrban.com. "You may be entitled to $1,000 each time you can't use something at a business because of your disability."

    2. Re:I am all for just by tehcyder · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That is just an example of people gaming your silly US legal system, which relies on individuals suing each other rather than the government enforcing laws. It should be a simple health and safety issue - if a business contravenes regulations, the authorities step in and get them to correct it, if they refuse then the government should fine them and use the money to enforce the change.
      br> Yeah, blah blah, it's socialism and distorts the free market. Whatever.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  9. Re:why? by compro01 · · Score: 2, Informative

    One problem solved, at least two more created.

    1. Size. Modern hearing aids are very small, they fit in your ear canal, rather than behind the ear. There's not much room to add a bluetooth transceiver and antenna.

    2. Battery life. Bluetooth is not free in terms of power and given the above size constraint, you don't have a lot of headroom to put in more battery. You're looking at about 100mAh, 600mAh at the outside, and expected battery life of days to weeks of continuous use. Even with the brand new low energy bluetooth (which practically nothing supports yet), you're still looking at a considerable draw.

    --
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  10. When humans are the product by tepples · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Handicapped accessible == machine readable.

    Machine readability can be a bad thing when human eyeballs are the product and the information on your web site exists solely to entice humans to look at your advertisements. Watch as TV listings sites have introduced CAPTCHAs and distort the listings in ways that only a full CSS layout engine can untangle, specifically to deter machines that screen-scrape instead of paying per month for API access.

    If you grok HTML and CSS then I fail to see how an accessible design costs a whole lot more than a non-accessible one.

    Accessible design costs more if you incur costs per day or per view that advertisers are supposed to pay, but they don't pay if most of your visitors are scrapers. To take a bad gaming analogy: is it desirable to make a first-person shooter "accessible" to aimbots?