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French ISP Refuses To Send Out Infringement Notices

Posted by timothy on from the finest-bureaucratic-tradition dept.

An anonymous reader writes "Last month it was clear that French ISPs were not at all happy about the whole three strikes Hadopi process in France. Now that the 'notice' process has started, with Hadopi sending out notices to 10,000 people per day, it's hit a bit of a stumbling block. The French ISP named 'Free' has apparently figured out a bit of a loophole that allows it to not send out notices and protect its subscribers. Specifically, the law requires ISPs to reveal user info to Hadopi, but it does not require them to alert their users. But, the law does say that only users who are alerted by their ISP can be taken to court to be disconnected. In other words, even if Free is handing over user info, so long as it doesn't alert its users (which the law does not mandate), then those users cannot be kicked off the internet via Hadopi."

15 of 302 comments (clear)

  1. Where are the parents? by kthreadd · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Now how is the system supposed to work if one party apparently cheats, didn't think of that huh!

    1. Re:Where are the parents? by GooberToo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If French courts are anything like courts in the rest of the world, the "spirit" of the law will apply. Meaning, the spirit of the law is clear and unambiguous. Such a loophole is in violation of the spirit of the law. Chances are, assuming a reasonably sane court/judge, they will simply tell them to comply with the law and supply the information in question. At which point, failure to comply will result in their arrest followed by whatever penalties apply for violation of the law.

      Basically - yawn!

    2. Re:Where are the parents? by evilandi · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I'm guessing you've not visited France much.

      Farmers and fishermen use loopholes in the law to block entire interstates or major ferry ports for weeks on end.

      There is a deep and wide cultural history of using legal loopholes to embellish protest.

      --
      Andrew Oakley - www.aoakley.com
    3. Re:Where are the parents? by nospam007 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      But how will they send them notice?
      The only thing allowed in court is a postal letter sent with a card where the recepient signs for the reception.
      It costs a fortune and if nobody opens the door and/or goes to the post-office to get the letter, you'll have to send a 'huissier' which will have to serve them personally, and who will have the same problems serving the letter.
      Who will pay for this?

      As to the emailing, my ISP for example doesn't have any of my email addresses, how would they email me?

    4. Re:Where are the parents? by cbope · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Do you know anything about the courts in the rest of the world, or are you simply assuming that they all follow US courts? Here in Finland for example, it is the Letter of the law that counts. There is no "spirit" of the law and the laws are generally not open to interpretation. The laws are written in clear language, in such a way that they are easily understood by someone with a moderate degree of education. Lawyers are not required to "interpret" the laws. If the law says you are in violation if you do X, and you do X and are caught, there is not much wiggle room. You clearly broke the law. Of course the prosecution still needs to prove their case to the court.

      Please don't assume that everything outside the US, operates like it does in the US.

  2. But the users can still be sued? by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I'm not sure this is a real win. If the user info is turned over, they can still be sued.

    Maybe they don't lose internet ability, but the core problem is still intact.

    1. Re:But the users can still be sued? by SolitaryMan · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Not to mention that this will be fixed in a matter of months.

      --
      May Peace Prevail On Earth
    2. Re:But the users can still be sued? by AHuxley · · Score: 2, Interesting

      French investigative judges can learn from
      http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/10/us-anti-p2p-law-firms-sue-more-in-2010-than-riaa-ever-did.ars
      You will have to turn up and prove you did not download the media in question.
      It has quality entrepreneurship too "All aspects of our anti-piracy solution are paid out of the damages that are collected for you" :)

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  3. 10,000 users a day... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    At what percentage of the population breaking a given law does the law become stupid to have around at all?

  4. Re:What is the return policy on purchased laws? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Probably not - but they do have a wonderful historical heritage - time to sharpen the guillotines again and start beheading the politicos.

  5. It's France, prepare for more surrender. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I think people have overlooked France's take on intellectual property. They only care so far as domestic brands (eg Louis Vuitton, Hermes) being counterfeited, and those are the only cases they win in their own courts. Outside of France, those brands lose all the time. We'll probably see a follow up within a month of this "loophole" being corrected, but only for domestic content, while foreign content to do their own damn work.

  6. they only send 100 notices this first time by zproc · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Hadopi's required / they say they need to send 25 000 notices per day I believe, but actually send 100 for this time. Also, "Free" handed the IPs on paper instead of providing the data digitally like every other provider. And yes another provider urged the governement to act to make "Free" comply as they sensed "Free" was gaining a little bit more popularity with this trick.

    1. Re:they only send 100 notices this first time by Cinder6 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      They should take it one step further than paper: run the user info through a CAPTCHA generator so that it can't simply be scanned. Claim something about security to justify it.

      --
      If you can't convince them, convict them.
  7. Free are cool... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Free is my isp in france, and I have to say they have a real clue about things at times. The router/voip/tv box they supply works brilliant and is well thought out, they allow proper reverse dns on static ip's, and its easy to get a fixed ip from them with no blocked ports. The only time theyre let down is by the quality of the psu on the modem and the 1st line support. They also run various mirror sites for FLOSS projects, gentoo etc so it makes my life a lot quicker and easier.
    Ive always strongly got the impression theyve got some serious unix geeks on staff who actually get a say in what happens.

    So, given they technically get it, I am not at all surprised to hear they have a handle on the whole hadopi bullshit and are looking for ways to make life awkward for the people trying to implement it.

  8. And what do you do with rejects? by Nicolas+MONNET · · Score: 2, Interesting

    They will have to have at least one person full time handling problems. Most likely half a dozen. Remember that those mails have some sort of legal value, and if they don't get delivered because of a bug in Free's infrastructure, they're on the hook. So it's better for them to refuse entirely than to give the assholes a free pass. Plus it annoys the shit out of the assholes so it's good.