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Pirate Electrician Supplied Power To 1,500 Homes

fridaynightsmoke writes "A former electrical engineer for utility EDF has been prosecuted for illegally supplying power to some 1,500 homes in north London. Derek Brown, 45, was arrested in 2008 after being seen tampering with the electric grid in a manhole. He specialized in connecting separate supplies to houses that were split into apartments. One landlord involved, Haresh Parmar, was jailed for 9 months for stealing £30,000 worth of electricity for 22 of his apartments. Brown's assets will be seized and he has been sentenced to 8 months suspended, and 150 hours community service."

59 of 373 comments (clear)

  1. Oh my-- by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    What a shocking development

    1. Re:Oh my-- by ommerson · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Or more likely, a small number of crooked customers who have a vested interest in keeping the whole thing quiet. Note that the a landlord of 22 properties got a longer sentence than the electrician.

  2. freedom by Dionysus · · Score: 5, Funny

    Electricity wants to be free!

    --
    Je ne parle pas francais.
    1. Re:freedom by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      No, electricity wants to be *grounded*.

    2. Re:freedom by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Dear Anonymous Coward, That is why most stupid, crap-spewing dumbasses post as Anonymous Coward.

      Dear Pseudononymous Coward,
      I am glad to see you personally demonstrate that every rule has an exception.

    3. Re:freedom by Kvasio · · Score: 2, Funny

      Just look at profits of power supply companies. And electrons don't see a single penny from it. Protest against exploitation of electrons and share the electricity (by connecting to public lighting)

  3. British Power Supply by Cylix · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Can someone explain how the mains circuit is supplied.

    TFA was so light on details its very difficult to understand what he did. I'm not sure how you can actually illegally tap into the power grid without someone noticing. Here an inspector literally reads the meter or in some cases a digital meter supplies information automatically. In fact, my gas is apparently wireless and merely requires someone to drive by to meter the usage. It would seem like something that would be very difficult to subvert in a suburban environment.

    --
    "You should always go to other people's funerals; otherwise, they won't come to yours." -- Yogi Berra
    1. Re:British Power Supply by mysidia · · Score: 2, Interesting

      TFA was so light on details its very difficult to understand what he did. I'm not sure how you can actually illegally tap into the power grid without someone noticing.

      We're reading about it, and the article wasn't written by the person, so obviously someone noticed (even though they were apparently slow about it... perhaps they wanted to let the charges rack up, so they could make an example of the person)

    2. Re:British Power Supply by davester666 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Um, he can do all kinds of things.

      Just tap into power and run it to a new building. Meter reader isn't expecting to go to the building to read the meter, so nothing is missed.

      Or run electricity into building, through a box that looks like a meter, only gives out a faulty reading.

      As for wireless and/or internet-connected meters, it wouldn't surprise me if the company isn't particularly on the clue train and may not, say, have a very good system in place for authenticating the data from the device [so you could replicate the signal and put out whatever reading you want]. However, the company probably does require a semi-regular physical meter reading, to check that the physical meter has the same reading as the broadcast one, and the system doesn't appear to be tampered with].

      Electricity may be more complicated to wire up correctly to bypass the meter [so x% goes through the meter and y% goes around the meter], but gas and water are really straightforward to do the plumbing and to get a reasonable percentage through the meter, and people have been really imaginative in disguising/hiding the modifications.

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    3. Re:British Power Supply by SuricouRaven · · Score: 5, Informative
      There are three ways to steal power. The easy way, the hard way, and the insane way.
      - The easy way: Vamp the cables before they go into the meter. Carefully poke needles into them, solder cable to the needles. Careful not to draw too much current, or they get hot - but British power is 230V, so a little current goes a long way. There is a risk of a meter reader noticing, but if you have a remotely-monitored smart-meter then this is an option. Popular with intensive pot-growers - not to avoid the fee, but because a house that suddenly spikes by several kilowatts and stays there will raise a suspicion notice at the utility, and may result in police going around to see if someone is operating hundreds of day-bulbs.

      - The hard way: Find a cable someone else has paid for and splice in. Good targets are outbuildings. If your garage is next to theirs, a little breaking-and-entering is all you need.

      - The insane way: Tap into the actual mains distribution cables under the roads or on utility poles. I think this is what he was doing. High effort, high risk of detection, high risk of electrocution. Only a real electrician could do this, like the person of the article. Allows access to great amounts of power, for running large buildings.

    4. Re:British Power Supply by David+Off · · Score: 3, Informative

      Fourth way, if you live near high voltage cables run cables beneath to tap of electricity by induction. People have been prosecuted in the UK for doing this.

      The electric company meters the supply upstream of the domestic supplies so they have an idea if someone is drawing electricity illegally as all the individual readings should add up to the global reading minus losses.

    5. Re:British Power Supply by Qubit · · Score: 3, Interesting

      if you live near high voltage cables run cables beneath to tap of electricity by induction. People have been prosecuted in the UK for doing this.

      How in the world do you prosecute someone for using an induction loop?

      I mean, sure, you could prosecute them for trespass or something if you move your stuff onto their property/airspace, but if it's all on your own land, it's just EM waves flowing through the air. If the land owner has to put up with the radiation they didn't ask for, who is to say that they can't use it to induce a current?

      Anyhow, I figure you might be trollin' seeing as how you'd have to get really close to get any measurable power via induction, but it is an interesting question in any case...

      --

      coding is life /* the rest is */
    6. Re:British Power Supply by Chrisq · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Or run electricity into building, through a box that looks like a meter, only gives out a faulty reading.

      The article talks about buildings that are split into apartments. In the UK sometimes the landlord pays the electric company, and then has private meters for each apartment - all going through the main meter. (This is much less common than it was because there are strict limits on markup and additional charges. Most new flats now have electric company meters). The safest way to fiddle the bill would be to have one or two flats going through the main meter and the rest using an illegal collection. The landlord of course collects money from all the tenants!

    7. Re:British Power Supply by SharpFang · · Score: 2, Informative
      --
      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    8. Re:British Power Supply by turing_m · · Score: 4, Informative

      How in the world do you prosecute someone for using an induction loop?

      It is theft of power. If it wasn't able to be prosecuted, you'd have people buying up tracts of land under high tension power lines and erecting commercial or industrial scale induction loops. The government/courts would then say to themselves - we either side with modern civilization as we know it, or a pack of free-loading bullshit artists. Hmmm, tough choice.

      --
      If I have seen further it is by stealing the Intellectual Property of giants.
    9. Re:British Power Supply by abigsmurf · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They almost certainly check how the power gets drained between certain stretches of cabling for maintenance purposes. If, for example, they notice a stretch of cable is losing 2KW of power more than they'd expect it could indicate damaged cable or that that the power is getting partially grounded somehow.

    10. Re:British Power Supply by Barefoot+Monkey · · Score: 4, Informative

      if you live near high voltage cables run cables beneath to tap of electricity by induction. People have been prosecuted in the UK for doing this.

      How in the world do you prosecute someone for using an induction loop?

      I mean, sure, you could prosecute them for trespass or something if you move your stuff onto their property/airspace, but if it's all on your own land, it's just EM waves flowing through the air. If the land owner has to put up with the radiation they didn't ask for, who is to say that they can't use it to induce a current?

      Anyhow, I figure you might be trollin' seeing as how you'd have to get really close to get any measurable power via induction, but it is an interesting question in any case...

      Those are good questions. Firstly, when you draw power using induction you are actually creating a load on the power supply. It's more-or-less the same as if you had spliced into the cable, but easier to hide and less likely to kill you. Secondly, building and using a coil for this purpose is a very deliberate theft of service with physical evidence (a coil, and usually a cable running to the thief's house). So yes, you can definately prosecute for this, even if there was no tresspassing.

      As for distance, if you have a sufficiently large coil on the ground under powerlines then that is close enough to draw power.

      This is actually a very common method to defraud electricity providers, particularly in informal settlements (squatter camps) where coils are easy to conceal.

    11. Re:British Power Supply by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      if you live near high voltage cables run cables beneath to tap of electricity by induction

      BUSTED: Mythbusters did it.
      You don't get nearly enough power.
      video here

    12. Re:British Power Supply by MichaelSmith · · Score: 2, Interesting

      cleverly designed arms

      Pantographs.

      Yeah thats the word but now I am thinking in terms of jumper cables with hooks on the end and a snare built out of 40mm pipe with a cable running along the inside. If you can bang in your own ground you might just need to snare the active. Design it for a fast charge. Could be the breakthrough that electric vehicles have been waiting for!

    13. Re:British Power Supply by jandersen · · Score: 2, Informative

      How in the world do you prosecute someone for using an induction loop?

      What do you mean "how"? "How can you succesfully prosecute a case like that": As any other case, collect evidence that there was an intent to do something naughty and take it from there; shouldn't be too hard - big inductors and appliances using the power generated is all that is needed. If you mean "Why is this even reasonable?", then consider that energy is never destroyed or created. To demonstrate the effect of tapping energy by induction, try to measure the power consumption on the input side of a transformer when the output is loaded to when it is unloaded.

      I mean, sure, you could prosecute them for trespass or something if you move your stuff onto their property/airspace, but if it's all on your own land, it's just EM waves flowing through the air. If the land owner has to put up with the radiation they didn't ask for, who is to say that they can't use it to induce a current?

      Trespassing is not necessary. You can tap usable amounts of power from a radio- or tv mast if you put up the right kind of aerial. As I noted above, this can have an impact on the power use of the transmitter, but on top of that, if an unqualified person starts handling serious amounts of electrical power, they may cause serious accidents - houses may burn down as a result, innocent people may get electrocuted because things are not set up properly etc.

    14. Re:British Power Supply by jimicus · · Score: 3, Informative

      It is theft of power. If it wasn't able to be prosecuted, you'd have people buying up tracts of land under high tension power lines and erecting commercial or industrial scale induction loops. The government/courts would then say to themselves - we either side with modern civilization as we know it, or a pack of free-loading bullshit artists. Hmmm, tough choice.

      You've been modded funny, but there are actually a few examples where bullshit artists have taken the system to court and lost precisely because if they were to win, the resulting mess would be far more than any sane government would want to contemplate. IANAL, but AFAICT most judges take a fairly dim view of people trying to twist an interpretation of the law in a fashion that would be of great detriment to society.

    15. Re:British Power Supply by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      You can even see this in judgements we would now disagree with.

      The famous "end of slavery" judgement in England is very narrowly written, it holds that slavery is a repugnant institution, and so could only exist in England if it was the law, then it says the law doesn't provide for slavery in England, and so the plaintiff, who is in England, is not a slave and may go free.

      But it carefully says nothing about slavery outside England. There were in practice essentially no slaves in England, which is why this chap (brought there from a colony and unwilling to return) was chosen as a test case. Everything was paid for by anti-slavery advocates. So the intention was to secure a judgement that slavery as a whole was illegal, and the judge did not do that. He didn't want to cause chaos by spontaneously freeing huge numbers of slaves.

      Campaigners still called this an end to slavery, but England continued to operate slave ships, and to control colonies whose commercial viability depended on slavery. The only thing that had changed was a man who found himself in England could be sure he wasn't a slave - though as a servant he might be little better off. It would take many more years before English rulers instructed their colonies to cease buying new slaves and grant their existing slaves freedom.

    16. Re:British Power Supply by zippthorne · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Conversely, the power company ought to control their emissions. If they're leaking enough power onto a person's property to be usefully collected, they should compensate the property owner for the EM pollution.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    17. Re:British Power Supply by tehcyder · · Score: 4, Funny

      The insane way

      No, the truly insane way to steal power would be to nick a nuclear power plant and install it in your garden shed.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    18. Re:British Power Supply by tibit · · Score: 3, Informative

      Remember that induction reciprocates. If you have a transformer without a secondary winding, or with a mild bulk resistor in the EM field -- like happens around high voltage AC transmission lines, then the transformer runs at some nominal loss that you can't do much about. As soon as you add a secondary winding and load it, the primary winding current increases! So the "leakage" by itself doesn't mean that they are losing as much power as they would if you had an actual secondary winding there, with a load. Ground, even wet ground, and buildings, even with metal in them, are very poor transformer secondaries. Something purpose-designed -- doesn't have to be.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    19. Re:British Power Supply by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Mythbusters sucks. They decided to try to make a gunpowder engine once and all their designs were horribly flawed; I corrected one of their non-working gunpowder engine designs (the hopper was of a severely flawed design) and it worked. They even tried pouring gunpowder directly into the cylinder of a regular petrol engine. These people are incompetent.

  4. About his prosecution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    So I guess the charges he was brought up on were negative, am I right?

    1. Re:About his prosecution by sincewhen · · Score: 5, Funny

      I see you have posted AC...not DC.

      --
      -- Braden's law of data: All data spends some of its lifetime in an excel spreadsheet.
    2. Re:About his prosecution by mjwx · · Score: 2, Funny

      I see you have posted AC...not DC.

      Nah nah na nah na... Thunder.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  5. Bad puns aside... by xenobyte · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If people were willing to use this scheme to get cheaper electricity, I guess the electricity is too expensive.

    Here in Denmark over 90% of the amount we pay for electricity is various taxes. No wonder people turn to alternative solutions because once you've done yours and switched bulbs, appliances and everything to the most environmentally friendly versions available, you still get a hefty bill and there's nothing (more) you can do about it - except perhaps to steal the electricity that is... ;)

    --
    "For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." -- H.L. Mencken (1880-1956) --
    1. Re:Bad puns aside... by drsquare · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I believe it was the landlord doing this, not the tenants who probably paid the landlord for utilities. And people will always want free stuff.

  6. Harry Tuttle? by forkazoo · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Tuttle, or was it Buttle? Anyhow, clearly a rogue handyman on the loose. Better arrest somebody.

  7. 150 Hours of Community Service by Krittick · · Score: 5, Funny

    Sounds like he already did the community service.

  8. No Pirate, a Thief by Grismar · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Since I think the distinction between thieves and pirates can be a useful one in the debate on software piracy, I'd say we're dealing with a thief here - not a pirate.

    1. Re:No Pirate, a Thief by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No sane, unbiased tech person would have put the word "Pirate" in the title relating to this story. Even the linked Reg story calls him a "Rogue Engineer" and we all know Orlowski is first to bash any "freetards".

      Does that minus sign next to the story title do anything? I'm going to press it anyway.

      --
      Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
  9. Not stolen, just borrored! by noidentity · · Score: 3, Funny

    He didn't steal the power, he just borrowed it. For every electron that went into his wires, he sent one right back to the electric company. So he just copied them. Or something.

  10. Re:Buttle, anyone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    #!/usr/bin/python
    import electricity
    #????
    print 'profit'

  11. genius! by Qubit · · Score: 2, Funny

    But say I had an electric vehicle with cleverly designed arms (like the gear on the top of a tram) which could reach up to the power lines, charge up, then fold up again. I could probably get away with doing that for years in the middle of the night, especially if I had signs on my vehicle suggesting some official status.

    Wait, so let me get this straight: You design an electric vehicle with special arms whose sole purpose is to reach up its arms at night to recharge, then sit there during the day as the battery drains out, then reach up again a night or so later and recharge again.

    And you do this for years...

    Brilliant!

    --

    coding is life /* the rest is */
    1. Re:genius! by MichaelSmith · · Score: 2, Interesting

      No, during the day you drive it around. Then stop where you can steal power during the night.

  12. Re:Logical disjunction? by OeLeWaPpErKe · · Score: 3, Funny

    And yet it enabled him to supply more power than the average renewable power government project. I say we need more nuts and rocks !

  13. Re:Power should be free anyway by justinlee37 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Roads/Schools/Libraries are classified as public goods, which the free market does not allocate very efficiently. That's why we use taxes to pay for them and provide them for everyone. I think the parent understands that they aren't "free" in the sense that you mean.

    Go take an introductory macroeconomics class and then get back to us when you're slightly more educated. We really don't have the time or patience to deal with you until then.

  14. See ? Another good use of DRM! by freaker_TuC · · Score: 2, Insightful

    .. They wouldn't have stolen it that fast when it had DRM!

    (I can't believe I've said pro-DRM crap; my low-uid must be tarnished for life now!)

    --
    --- I am known for the ones who want to find me on the net. Is that a privacy risk or a privilege? One might wonder..
  15. Re:Logical disjunction? by aurispector · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'd like to point out that this sort of thing is very common in third world countries. When it happens, it drives up prices for actual paying customers by making it exponentially more difficult for utilities to provide service and maintain infrastructure due to the uncompensated stress put on their systems. As the increased taxes and regulations of the modern socialist nanny state crushes entrepreneurship and throws ever larger numbers of people out of work and onto welfare, expect to see more of this as a harbinger of things to come.

    Remember, there ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

    --
    I have mod points. The reign of terror begins now.
  16. Re:This is not piracy by HikingStick · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Do you forget that the term "piracy" had its origins before the digital age? When the ship with the Jolly Roger approached a vessel, overtook it, and stole the cargo, it was called "piracy". While originally describing theft at sea, its (vernacular) meaning can include any act of theft from a merchant or carrier before the "cargo" reaches the intended customer or destination.

    --
    I use irony whenever I can, but my shirts are still wrinkled...
  17. Re:All you say are lies. by tibit · · Score: 3, Informative

    I think it's partially BS. An induction loop that provides useful power (enough to run a house) at a distance of 100 yards to the AC transmission line must be coupling to a big-scale high voltage line -- I'd presume something above 100kV. AFAIK, in those lines, change in losses due to changes in something as trivial as air humidity beats whatever consumption a house would have, by orders of magnitude. I doubt they would be able to measure whatever this man did. Now it's true that he did increase the load on their line, but the instantaneous power transmitted by such lines is such that one house's worth of load is below the capability of typical industrial measurement systems. So it's true that he was stealing power, but I doubt they came to him due to "extra load in their circuit". Besides, such lines are costly to maintain, so I presume it's rare that you would run such a line without normal loads attached to it. I'd think that leakage measurements with disconnected loads are rare: idling a big transmission line wastes lots of money.

    --
    A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
  18. Libertarian fantasy wank. by the_raptor · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Yeah I hate how high taxes and over regulation created those third world countries... oh wait they are almost universally libertarian fantasies in which even local policing is "outsourced" to "entrepreneurs".

    This sort of Libertarian fantasy wank gets modded insightful?

    P.S. The freedom crushing is being done at the behest of under-regulated corporate behemoths that can buy laws. Which is the end result of Libertarian fantasy wank.

    --

    ========
    CINC, 4th Penguin Legion
    1. Re:Libertarian fantasy wank. by SteveFoerster · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Nothing you just said there made any sense. The guy wasn't connecting taxes and regulation with third world countries, he was just remarking that in developing countries many people steal electricity, cable TV, and so forth. And it's true.

      P.S. There's nothing libertarian about "buying laws". In a libertarian society, those with wealth wouldn't have the same opportunity to use it to buy coercive legislation over others that they do in the real world. A strong state tends to amplify the influence of the wealthy, not mitigate it.

      --
      Space game using normal deck of cards: http://BattleCards.org
    2. Re:Libertarian fantasy wank. by mangu · · Score: 3, Informative

      Yeah I hate how high taxes and over regulation created those third world countries...

      Have you actually ever visited a third world country?

      I live in Brazil where sales tax is around 25% for food, for "luxury" items it could reach 70% of the final price. In order to dock at a Brazilian harbor, a ship has to fill over 140 different documents with a total of over 900 different questions.

      In other words, you are absolutely correct. High taxes and over regulation are, basically, the cause of many countries being poor.

    3. Re:Libertarian fantasy wank. by KillAllNazis · · Score: 3, Interesting

      What version of money would this be that you cannot buy power with?

    4. Re:Libertarian fantasy wank. by geekoid · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Those are not bribe, those are just people with money getting to the front of the line; which according to libertarians is how it should be.

      \
      Yeah, by default, 3rd world countries become the end result of libertarian bullshit. The people with money get what ever they want, regardless of the harm to others, and people without become slaves and live in a hell hole. Naturally people with money want to stay being the people with money, so they do what ever they can to ensure they stay on top. As has been shown for hundreds of year, this includes bulling possible competitor, making laws that favor you, and a variety of other uncivilized actions.

      Look about to the turn of last century and the beginning of the industrial revolution. Yeah, not a lot of regulations. Basically a libertarian wet dream. Libertarian is only endorsed by corporation who stand to gain from less to no regulation and ignorant middle class people.

      We did the ;ibertarian experiment, it failed as a reasonable choice for civilized people.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    5. Re:Libertarian fantasy wank. by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You obviously are more inclined to want more regulation until every facet of your life if regimented, say like China or North Korea.

      No, there is no flaw in your slippery slope argument /sarcasm.

      The only thing you fail to mention is that the "libertarian" examples you provided aren't libertarian at all. They are anarchistic. And if that is your view of LIBERTY than you shouldn't comment on ideals you have no concept of.

      The function of government is to secure the liberties of the people. Most of the third world countries that are often touted by the leftwing anti liberty crowd (such as yourself), is that they DO NOT HAVE a functioning governance.

      And while you're at it, why not admit that corporations are nothing more than collectives, like unions? When you realize that collectivization of politics leads to tyranny, then you'll be able to realize that you've been an idiot, and the end of your leftwing fantasy wank.

      I'm not against "unions" or "corporations", I'm just against collectives of any sort infringing upon the liberties of anyone, even if I'm affected directly. Because even if I'm not personally affected by anti libertarian tyrants, I will be, eventually.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    6. Re:Libertarian fantasy wank. by ncc74656 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      What version of money would this be that you cannot buy power with?

      If there's no significant accumulation of power in the government to begin with, all the money in the world will do you no good here. You can't buy that which doesn't exist.

      --
      20 January 2017: the End of an Error.
    7. Re:Libertarian fantasy wank. by Kjella · · Score: 3, Insightful

      A strong state tends to amplify the influence of the wealthy, not mitigate it.

      [reality check needed]

      Let's take a case study:
      US: A "weak" state in terms of taxes and regulation
      Europe: Mostly "strong" states with more taxes and regulation

      Where does wealth buy the most influence? The US. Sure, money talks in Europe too but not nearly as strongly. In fact, I would suggest that most of things that cause Americans to shout "Socialists!" are good for the masses, not the wealthy like universal health care, better unemployment/disability/retirement/whatever benefits, stronger consumer protection laws, stronger worker protection laws and so on. The wealthy could afford to buy it on their own and it'd probably be cheaper for them than the taxes they pay instead.

      All of us have to deal with megacorporations even if we're not employed at them, many things have to be driven at a large industrial scale to be profitable today. They are the people that can and will screw you over because they're often a little oligarchy, sure they may push the customers around a little but in the end they can't leave the handful of companies that supply it. So you got burned by Intel and go AMD or burned by AMD and go Intel. And if you get burned by both? I suppose you might find a VIA board somewhere, but that's it.

      They also supply many enough jobs that people will jump at them in a poor economy or even a not so poor one. The wealthy never have to deal with being a peon of an employee, the corporations run wild on behalf of their masters which are the wealthy ones we are talking about. You can pretend that "at will" is an equally strong tool in both directions but it's a lie, most companies can easily absorb losing an employee. Not so many employees can easily absorb losing their one and only job. Not to mention that in the US, your work is tied to your company health insurance.

      The reason it seems like more laws means more laws written for the wealthy is because in the US the wealthy write the laws. Just FYI, that's not how it should work.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
  19. Re:Libertard wank by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The problem isn't that the 'corportate behemoths' are under-regulated. The problem is that any competition from smaller businesses are over-regulated. The government gets to pass laws and gets seen as 'doing something', while the big guys eat the cost of that regulation and make it up with all the additional business they squeeze out from the competition. Even worse, companies like GE and BP get to look at heroes for pushing legislation for things that sound good like 'Green Energy' while doing so simply to benefit themselves and harm the competition.

    If government was smaller, and not as easily bought (as as wise man said, "When bying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things bought and sold are legislators"), you wouldn't have this incestuous relationship. It's a form of rent seeking, and you wouldn't have it as bad if the upper eschelon of both govt. and business weren't tag-teaming to screw the little guys.

  20. No they did not by geekoid · · Score: 3, Informative

    They showed the coils of bailing wire didn't work with specific PG&E transmission lines to 'power a house'.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  21. Let me explain how it actually works: by fyngyrz · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Trickle-down: When an already wealthy entity receives money, it becomes more and more conservative with it. It invests it outside the core business (diversification) or it squirrels it away (hoarding), sometimes in the form of non-cash (art, land, etc.) What it doesn't do is turn around and shower that money on the workers, or the consumers, of the products it is currently selling. This trickle down idea is a myth, a myth started and maintained by those whose only goal is to collect as much of everyone else's money as possible.

    Credit: The function of credit is to expand the gap between the wealthy and the poor, by transferring money from the poor to the wealthy. Here's how it works. At some interest rate, $100 is made available to the poor by the wealthy. The poor pays back $110. That $100 then is actually worth $90 to the poor, but $110 to the wealthy. At the end of the transaction, the wealthy have more money. The poor, however, have less, although they have $100 worth of goods, with a probable resale value of far less, should they try and exchange them for cash. It is worth noting that in general, they goods they purchase they also buy from the wealthy. The result of the credit process is a continuous transfer of money from the poor to the rich - never the other way, unless the debt repayment is defaulted, and even then, statistically speaking, this doesn't slow the process down much.

    This is why the libertarian idea of corporate freedom is bunk. Corporations are not people; if we compare them honestly to persons, they're a lot more like psychopaths. No society that lets them run free can remain healthy; the US is one recent example; when unregulated, jobs are sent overseas, healthcare is not provided, products are not made to last, warranty and service are only given under profound duress, copy protection, software differentiation, IP hoarding and other anti-consumer practices become not just common, but the standard for behavior.

    The libertarian outlook has major value in that area where it recognizes the liberties and freedoms of people, and says that government should have no authority there. When those freedoms are extended to corporations, the libertarian ideal turns immediately into a nightmare, one not all that unlike the one we're currently experiencing. Corporations are not people. They completely lack empathy, sympathy, compassion, courtesy, loyalty, and honor. They are, quite literally, psychopaths. Given the strengths of a legal person, they will act along the same lines of the worst criminals society has ever known. All the while smiling to your face.

    --
    I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
  22. Taxes: not magic, but not obvious, either by fyngyrz · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You mean, like when you get your W2 and fill out that pesky 1040? Yeah, I already know what I pay in taxes.

    If that's how you figure it, you're not even close.

    For instance, if you pay $100 for plumbing, but the plumber has to give $30 of that to the feds for his taxes, do you think the plumber is going to do $100 worth of work for you? No. He's only getting $70, and so that is the very MOST he going to do for you -- he'll do less, in fact, because otherwise he will not make a profit.

    So, if you pay 30% taxes, then you had to earn $142.85 to pay the plumber $100, for which you got less than $70 worth of services. In the end, $142 of your dollars bought something less than $70 worth of services.

    People are generally unaware of this, because we don't see the plumber's taxes; that info is hidden. Each purchase we make of goods and service has a significant, but variable, hidden siphon of funds going on to the government, directly affecting how much actual work your money does for us.

    Sometimes they even manage to tax our purchases more than once; for instance, a death tax taxes funds and goods we already bought when we try to pass them on, making them that much more expensive, or, to look at it another way, devaluing your money even further.

    So... perhaps you do know what taxes are doing to you. But most people really don't. It's because it isn't all that obvious. What some tax reformers want is that it be made obvious, generally by consolidating the process (taxation) into one event - for instance, a national sales tax that would replace the other taxes, or other, similarly transparent ideas. The trick to it all is making it fair, and determining what "fair" means in the context of people who are barely making it as compared to those at the other end to whom taxes are irrelevant to them making it, and all those in between, for whom taxes variously affect their lives.

    --
    I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    1. Re:Taxes: not magic, but not obvious, either by StikyPad · · Score: 2, Informative

      Sales taxes are demonstrably regressive; the poorest pay the highest percent of income because they necessarily *spend* the highest percent of their income.

    2. Re:Taxes: not magic, but not obvious, either by trentblase · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So, if you pay 30% taxes, then you had to earn $142.85 to pay the plumber $100, for which you got less than $70 worth of services. In the end, $142 of your dollars bought something less than $70 worth of services.

      But by your logic, I only had to do $100 of work to earn the $142.85 (you say the plumber does $70 of work for the $100). So there's no double dipping.