Slashdot Mirror
Proving 0.999... Is Equal To 1
eldavojohn writes "Some of the juiciest parts of mathematics are the really simple statements that cause one to immediately pause and exclaim 'that can't be right!' But a recent 28 page paper in The Montana Mathematics Enthusiast (PDF) spends a great deal of time fielding questions by researchers who have explored this in depth and this seemingly impossibility is further explored in a brief history by Dev Gualtieri who presents the digit manipulation proof: Let a = 0.999... then we can multiply both sides by ten yielding 10a = 9.999... then subtracting a (which is 0.999...) from both sides we get 10a — a = 9.999... — 0.999... which reduces to 9a = 9 and thus a = 1. Mathematicians as far back as Euler have used various means to prove 0.999... = 1."
(0.999...)st Post!
Now I can replace my SLA with 100% uptime.
just as long as no-one proves 0 = 1 we computerpeople are safe...
People, what a bunch of bastards
In the high school gym, all the girls in the class were lined up against one wall, and all the boys against the opposite wall. Then, every ten seconds, they walked toward each other until they were half the previous distance apart. A mathematician, a physicist, and an engineer were asked, "When will the girls and boys meet?"
The mathematician said: "Never."
The physicist said: "In an infinite amount of time."
The engineer said: "Well... in about two minutes, they'll be close enough for all practical purposes."
Actually, if you define 0.999... as having an infinite number of decimal points, then it is true. And that's how that ellipsis is defined! It means exactly infinite repeating decimals.
You've demonstrated the first hurdle that this problem raises in people's brains: they start thinking about adding "one more" decimal point to the expression, meaning they're thinking of a large but finite number of decimal points. And the second hurdle: people find it hard to believe that you can do mathematics with "infinity" as a meaningful quantity.
No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
Unfortunatelly, your proof is not valid. You are trying to prove something which you postulate in your first step.
How do you know 1/9 equals 0.1111111.... ?
He begged the question! For anyone confused about the term "beg the question," this is exactly what it means: assuming the proposition to be proved in the premise.
But that begs the question: is the classical meaning already dead, replaced with the much more easily understood modern usage demonstrated here?
"I zero-index my hamsters" - Willtor (147206)
I remember being told this in highschool. There was much objection, but the teacher shut us up by simply saying "give me a number in between them."
Wrong, wrong and wrong.
First off, you're not talking about sets, but separate finite numbers.
Then, infinity is neither rational nor irrational.
Then, all numbers that have "infinite repeating decimals" are rational. See : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_number
So that means 0.999999..... is rational. Which rational you ask? Why! 9/9 :D
Finally, if you say 0.99999999..... is less than 1 : what is the difference between both?
We know it's less than any positive epsilon (0.1, 0.01, or 0.00000.....00001).
Which means it's nil.
There's no place for a single mosquito fart between 0.999999... and 1.
In the high school gym, all the girls in the class were lined up against one wall, and all the boys against the opposite wall. Then, every ten seconds, they walked toward each other until they were half the previous distance apart. A mathematician, a physicist, and an engineer were asked, "When will the girls and boys meet?"
The mathematician said: "Never."
The physicist said: "Eventually, they will come to a point where they would be required to move less than 1.616252(81)×1035 meters closer together. From the uncertainty principle, we know we cannot measure position more accurately than that. So either they will not move at all, or they will superimpose at that point."
The engineer said: "Well... in about two minutes, they'll be close enough for all practical purposes."
An infinite number of mathematicians walk into a bar. The first one orders a beer. The second one orders a half a beer. The third orders a quarter of a beer. The bartender says, "You're all idiots," and pours two beers.
The problem with that, though, is that people have trouble accepting that there was nothing wrong with what they did -- a lot of people have this implicit assumption that if a few simple steps bring them to a result that doesn't look like it makes sense, then they did something wrong.
Nope, the problem is that the people who discuss this question are lousy teachers. They set it up deliberately to create a block in other people's minds that makes it unnecessarily difficult for them to understand what is being claimed and why it is true.
If instead they said, "It is possible to represent numbers in different ways. We all know this, and it's completely uninteresting, but I'm going to bore you with it anyway. You know you can represent 1/3 as 0.3333... right? No big deal. Now curiously that also means you can represent 1/1 = (3*1/3) as 3*0.3333... or 0.99999... It's just a different representation of exactly the same value. You can of course also represent 1 as 5*1/5 1/2+1/2 and all kinds of other awkward and unintersting ways, too."
I'm not sure why people insist on presenting this result in the most counter-intuitive way possible and then wasting vast amounts of time trying to undo the damage they've inflicted with their incompetent introduction of the problem. My guess is that they are simply not very smart, as anyone who isn't fairly dumb would see that there is an obvious pedagogical problem at play here, and correct their presentation accordingly, rather than blindly and stupidly repeating the rote "0.9999... = 1" introduction to the remarkably dull fact that you can represent the same value in different ways.
Of course, in an insanely strictly typed language with infinite precision 0.999... would not quite be the same as 1, as the former is a real and the latter is an integer, so despite having the same value their different types would mean they could not be used identically in all circumstances.
Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
I remember being told this in highschool. There was much objection, but the teacher shut us up by simply saying "give me a number in between them."
Duh. 0.9999... and a half!
Surely the problem is that you're assuming sqrt(1) = 1 when actually it is +- 1? You're throwing away the sign change in that step :)
People who believe that 0.999... does not equal one also believe that 0.333... does not equal 1/3, and for many of the same reasons.
For once in my life I can claim someone is underestimating the average person!
I don't believe .999... = 1. Let me qualify that a bit, I intellectually and academically know it, but on a softer, more psychological level, I don't actually believe it. When presented with it, my first reaction would be "Hell no! Stupid.", even though I know it is true.
Why? Because your mapping two concepts that we all were taught as a kid isn't true. Does .9 = 1? Or .99? Or .999? or ... Or .999999999999(a ridiculous but non-infinite number of times)? Most grade school kids would say "no", and be correct. Then you hit the infinite jump, and suddenly it becomes true. So you run into two problems, the problem of it not being immediately obvious (common sense), and the problem of conceptualizing infinity.
On a lower level, its like saying A = ~A. You have a proof saying basically that ~A was A all along, so the actual preposition was wrong, which makes sense, but on a surface level all you can see is A =~A.
I have no problem whatsoever with 1/3 = 0.3333... This makes sense, its like stating A = A. 1/3 being 0.3333 is obvious. I would even get in trouble in lower level math classes for not mucking with fractions, and going straight for the decimals, since I never say fractions outside of cookbooks and socket sizes. 1/3 = 0.33333... makes sense, it is clear and obvious, and can be explained with a single phrase (not a proof); "the "/" means division". .999999... doesn't have this.
No, I'm not stupid, or at least for this reason. I know damn well that 0.9999... = 1, and if I ever find myself in a situation where that bit of knowledge can be applied (usefully, not just for building my ego on the internet), I will do it properly. My first reaction is still "bullshit!" on a visceral level, though. I don't perceive it as true, even if I know it is.
I suppose I can map this experience to most of the "social knowledge vs. science" debates in our culture currently. I won't.
A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey