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Convincing Your Employer To Go With FOSS?

mark72005 writes "My employer is currently looking at adopting a content management system for use by our technical support staff (primarily first-line end user support, but hopefully it will include deeper levels of support personnel eventually). The candidates are currently Plone (OSS) and Confluence (proprietary, closed-source). For those with experience in each, what arguments in favor of Plone could be made to managers more interested in pragmatism than idealism?"

22 of 369 comments (clear)

  1. It's tougher than you think... by RocketRabbit · · Score: 4, Insightful

    My problem has been convincing them that they con't just pass of the cost of Windows to the customer. They like the fact that they can hire 3-4 MCSEs for the cost of one good Unix admin, but they don't realize that the Unix admin can set things up so that maintenance is much easier.

    Windows is ingrained in business culture here, for the most part.

    1. Re:It's tougher than you think... by mangu · · Score: 5, Insightful

      because it's not Microsoft they just can't consider it "reliable".

      Tell them Open Office comes from Oracle.

    2. Re:It's tougher than you think... by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Tell them Open Office comes from Oracle.

      You say that like it's a good thing.

      To the people who make decisions, it is.

    3. Re:It's tougher than you think... by Hylandr · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You might also notice, that various versions of MS office don't instantly inter-operate properly either.

      - Dan.

      --
      ~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
    4. Re:It's tougher than you think... by mcrbids · · Score: 4, Funny

      I'm gonna get a karma beating for saying this, but sadly, Open Office isn't entirely reliable. Yes, it works well for smaller projects, is free, cross platform, and mostly compatible with MS office.

      But there are.... issues. Like the autonumbering makes you want to axe murder somebody. Spacing in Impress has a beeeelion little weirds.

      And... get this! The spreadsheet can't have more than 65535 rows! Here it is, 2010 and I have a roaring, quadcore laptop with 8 GB of RAM and a TB hard drive, and I'm limited to an architecture that was considered limiting 10 or more hardware generations ago?!?

      OoO is sadly just not as good, and it isn't until you lose 100,000 rows of financial data that you start to appreciate just how bad this actually is. (Which has never happened to me but not everybody is as anally retentive about backups as I am)

      I really wish I were an astrotufing MS shill, but I'm a Linux nerd with more than a decade as such...(check my UID)

      --
      I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
    5. Re:It's tougher than you think... by zeropointburn · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Like all posts about Microsoft products vs. open-source products, this post (the one you're reading right now) and its parent boil down to anecdotal evidence and personal preference. So, with the understanding that this is my opinion and not the intentional start of a flame war, read on.

      What exactly about Excel makes Calc look like a joke? My anecdotal experience is that it is at least twice as fast and I can find things in fairly logical places instead of a stupid ribbon. I use Calc for eve online industry calculations, which mirror fairly closely the actual data gathering, analysis, and projection work of a real business. What's your anecdotal experience?

      If your people needed training to switch from Microsoft Office to Open Office, then they also needed training to be able to use the present version of Microsoft Office vs. the previous version of Microsoft Office, which is still nothing compared to the training costs of Vista/Win7.

      Two other things to consider: if you have the latest and greatest MS product, you'll be saving in a format that only that version can read (at first, anyway). If you have the latest and greatest Open Office, you'll be saving in a format that both Open Office and Microsoft Office (any fairly recent version) can read. When you switch up with MS, you'll have the inevitable horde of people saving in the new, incompatible format and customers who can't open their documents without paying the Microsoft upgrade tax.
      Second, the site license is the real reason we still use Microsoft Office in business. Early adopters amongst customers or contractors will mean that someone in the enterprise needs to have the latest Microsoft offering to be able to read or convert their files. If one person needs it, why not several? If several people have it, we'd better do a site license 'cause the BSA swat team might show up for an audit. So, businesses talk themselves into the site license to avoid jackbooted thuggery. Once you have a site license, there's no reason to switch.

      Besides, trying to force a switch to OO is pointless... roll it out alongside Microsoft Office and let the people with a clue get on with things while the rest lag behind.

      --
      -1 raving lunatic; +6 subGenius... Things even out...
    6. Re:It's tougher than you think... by cas2000 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      and to be even fairer than that - if you actually run into that limitation, if you have a spreadsheet with anywhere near 65K rows then UR DOING IT WRONG.

      whatever it is you are doing, there are *far* better ways of doing it than with a spreadsheet.

  2. Confluence did not impress me by grahamwest · · Score: 4, Informative

    I've used TWiki (OSS, all Perl IIRC and aimed at corporate usage) at one job and Confluence at another but not Plone. Confluence is good for non-technical people because it has a pretty good wysiwig editor, but its search was simply wretched. I think we had a lot of 'lost' knowledge in the Confluence DB because nobody knew it was there and the obvious searches didn't show it - I would come across nuggets now and then. If you have the discipline to build index pages, it's probably a good choice if you have a lot of non-engineer type people.

    TWiki (and this was a number of years ago so it may have improved) was almost the reverse. Good search, good architecture for plugins, but no wysiwyg so non-technical contributors had trouble with it. They were writing a wysiwyg plugin so that may have now arrived. It was easy to maintain and of the two I would say I like it better.

    --
    Graham
  3. Stallman's answer by MrEricSir · · Score: 4, Funny

    I once asked Richard Stallman how to convince my school to go with FOSS instead of Windows, since most of our CS lab was on Windows.

    His reply: "Defenestration! Throw Windows out of the computer, or throw the computer out the window!"

    --
    There's no -1 for "I don't get it."
    1. Re:Stallman's answer by drsmack1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Maybe he would wait until December 25th and share it as a Grav-mass gift.

      As far as I can tell, the only thing that separates Richard Stallman from the bum that lives under a bridge near my home and rants incoherently at strangers is that Stallman has the ability to code.

      How someone's personality disorder became a religion is beyond me. Oh, wait - *All* religions start that way.

    2. Re:Stallman's answer by Beelzebud · · Score: 4, Informative

      Yeah except for that small detail about Stallman actually contributing something positive to the world. You may not like the guy's opinions, but he's contributed greatly to the world in the form of being one of the pioneers of the entire free software movement. Putting him in the category of a Michael Savage is not only completely unfair, but also just plain ignorant.

  4. Liferay by Tepar · · Score: 4, Informative

    Might I suggest Liferay (http://www.liferay.com)? Open source, but also commercial, and more featureful than both Plone and Confluence.

  5. Wrong order by MozeeToby · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You've obviously decided which piece of software you want to recommend even though the only reason you can think of to recommend it is that it is FOSS? If the open software isn't as good it just isn't as good; just because it's FOSS doesn't mean that it is the be all and end all to solve your problems. Compare features, stability, cost, and support; if your boss is actively against FOSS make a point to explain it's advantages (and disadvantages if you want to be fair) and leave the decision to him. After all, it's entirely possible that the closed, proprietary solution fits your situation better; basically, its dishonest to make your decision and then go digging specifically for evidence to support that decision.

    1. Re:Wrong order by Dancindan84 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Exactly. You don't convince them. The software should convince them. Go through the pros and cons of each (features, cost, support, interoperability, scalability) and let them decide.

      After that, IF the OSS product is superior and they're scared of the OSS boogieman enough to go with an inferior product after you've clearly outlined everything, you probably aren't going to be able to change their mind.

      --
      "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde
  6. FLOSS weekly 137 by keith_nt4 · · Score: 5, Informative

    I haven't used either system but the podcast FLOSS weekly recently did a whole episode about PLONE that may help you decide if it is right you.

    --
    "UNIX is very simple, it just needs a genius to understand its simplicity." -Dennis Ritchie
  7. Confluence is Open Source by MeanMF · · Score: 5, Informative

    Atlassian makes the source for all of their products available to anybody who buys a license. It doesn't cost anything extra, and even the $10 starter licenses come with full source.

  8. do you want a CMS, or a wiki? by WhiteDragon · · Score: 4, Informative

    Plone is a CMS, Confluence is a wiki. Incedentally, both products are quite good. I used Confluence at a previous job and it is a very nice wiki. We used it because of it's tight integration with Jira, an issue tracking system by the same software vendor.

    --
    Did you mount a military-grade, variable-focus MASER on an unlicensed artificial intelligence?
  9. Re:Confluence by Zero1za · · Score: 4, Informative

    Also, strictly speaking, Confluence IS open source, it's just not FOSS. You get access to the source code with your license, and as long as you keep your license up to date, you can download the source for the latest version at any time. If at some point you decide not to pay for support, their license allows you to keep working with what you have, binary or source. I think Atlassian as a company have taken a very enlightened approach to this issue, and I have no qualms in paying for their excellent software. Most of the issues I would have with closed source proprietary solutions are not an issue. You are free to tinker, just not redistribute, and they give you the insurance policy, in source code, that you can keep going should there ever be an issue with them as a company.

  10. Re:Cost by Anonymusing · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Plone is only "free" in software. In my experience with open source CMSs -- Plone, Typo3, Drupal, Joomla -- you get best results by paying an expert to program and set it up initially to your specs. It looks better, runs smoother, etc.

    I'm not that expert, by the way. I've just worked on projects that lacked an expert, and projects that had one, and the difference in result was night and day. The expertly-configured sites ran much better.

    --
    Liberal? Conservative? Compare perspectives at Left-Right
  11. First, drop the bias by grasshoppa · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If you want to make a solid business case, you need to approach it objectively; what option will cost the least, in the short, medium and long term?

    Maybe it's OSS, maybe it's not. But drop your bias right now before you research associated costs.

    --
    Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
  12. Re:Cost? by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Depending on corporate culture(and the exact policies RE: demos of the proprietary vendor) cost can actually be a huge factor; but not for the obvious "cheap=better" reason.

    In some institutional cultures there is a surprising power(assuming you don't step on the wrong toes) in Just Fucking Doing It. Obviously, unless you have really impressive guts and not too much sense, this doesn't mean putting a production server on an internet facing IP and hacking the company's DNS records to point to it; but showing up with a solid, functioning demo that everyone can gather around the projector and poke around at on their laptops can really sell something.

    If a proprietary product isn't either available as a free demo version, and not through some subscription program you have to sign up for, or so expensive that the company will send a guy in a nice suit to do the demo, hand out some swag, and give everyone a really nice handshake, doing that with a proprietary product is hard and/or illegal.

    Doing it with a FOSS(or freeware, admittedly) product is easy. You just throw something together in a VM and show it off.

    That was my experience when I was trying to convince my employer to drop sharepoint for a wiki. They weren't turned off by the cost of sharepoint; but the fact that I was able to ask my boss for some time at one of our department meetings, get behind the projector and say "Hey, I threw this demo together in a weekend and put in some example content so you can get an idea of how we would use it. Easy web interface, versioning, strong ability to create links between otherwise disparate pieces of technical knowledge, check it out at $INTERNAL_IP..." Everyone pulled out their laptops, poked around a bit, there was some discussion, and the boss green-lighted it.

    Had I given a speech about how we had to, like, fight the proprietary power, man, it would have gone nowhere. However, being able to just sit down, turn on, and show off, all without any serious backing or funding(because everything was free) allowed me to go from "nothing" to "green light-full production status". "Free" never entered into it in a hard financial way. However, had it not been free, I couldn't have done what I did. Now, Anecdote doesn't equal data, much less proof; but it is something to consider.

  13. Re:Cost? by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Unfortunately, I can't help you there. We were rather underutilizing the sharepoint setup, as little more than a glorified shared drive, only with more annoying complexity.

    That, combined with the fact that virtually all the document production of the department is lightly formatted near-plaintext technical documentation, with the occasional screenshot and hyperlink, also had a lot to do with making the pitch successful. Had we been 100% behind sharepoint at the time, it almost certainly would have failed. However, since we weren't putting too much effort into gettting the most out of any document management setup, I was able to sell the wiki(ended up being dokuwiki, I think) as a great "80/20 solution". Sharepoint would give you more features(and I freely acknowledged that); but required a greater level of work and buy-in than the department was giving it. The wiki would give us 80ish% of the benefits for 20% of the effort.

    So far, that has been largely true. For a department of our size, the wiki lives on a tiny little VM, not consuming any CALs or licences or anything, gives us versioning and attribution for the mostly plaintext documentation/links/screenshots stuff, and supports links to an SMB share where we can store installers and documents that absolutely have to be in Word, and so forth.

    Not quite as seamless; but it was fast, easy, and cheap. The fact that I could go from "nothing" to "full demo" in a little bit of spare time just helped drive that home.