Slashdot Mirror
How Google Avoided Paying $60 Billion In Taxes
bonch writes "Google only pays a 2.4% tax rate using money-funneling techniques known as the 'Double Irish' and the 'Dutch Sandwich,' even though the US corporate income tax is 35%. By using Irish loopholes, money is transferred legally between subsidiaries and ends up in island sanctuaries that have no income tax, giving Google the lowest tax rate amongst its technology peers. Facebook is planning to use the same strategy."
The widespread use of loopholes by companies/"rich" people always really pissed me off. They constantly complain so much of their wealth is being taken, yet they pull crap like this.
I would bet you that if my wife and I tried to do something similar, we would almost certainly be "caught". I don't know if loopholes are due to the complexity of the system, or because the big guys can afford to pay folks who know how to exploit them...but regardless of the reason, it's fucked up.
Living With a Nerd
Technically Google has committed no crime, and their tax avoidance is entirely legal. While it is normal to feel a moral outrage, I think your anger should be focused on those who created the loopholes in the first place. Washington.
If our elected representatives no longer represent us, do we still live in a Democracy?
Only poor people pay taxes.
Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
Another option: loopholes are there because the rich bribed government officials to put them there.
Go green: turn off your refrigerator.
That's a lot of textbooks, teacher's salaries, roads to be paved, police/fire stations to NOT be closed etc etc etc..
The US is one of the few countries, maybe the only one, which charges domestic taxes on income earned overseas. Everywhere else, that money is taxed only once, but here we expect it to be taxed twice.
It's like the politicians are trying to get them to play accounting games, or simply pick up and leave, in order to have something to decry.
What a ridiculous system. It's a wonder we have any multinationals based here at all.
Who's "they"? And, assuming you're referring to google, how are they shafting you?
It's not your money.
I disagree. The taxes they are avoiding paying would be used to pay for infrastructure, services, etc, so, in a very real way, it *is* his money because without those taxes, the system is not as well funded and projects/services/infrastructure have to be cut
Everything I need to know I learned by killing smart people and eating their brains.
The ridiculously complex tax code is to blame. It's time to flush it and start again. That's one of the concepts behind H.R.25, also known as the FairTax.
It's a misconception that corporations pay taxes. They don't. They get all their money from their customers (and some from investment). If you raise corporate taxes, the corporation raises prices to cover the tax. Why hide it like this? Just tax the customer, so we can all SEE how much tax we're paying. It's the only way to keep people involved in the battle to lower government spending, which is out of control.
I need trepanation like I need a hole in the head.
Yes, and a good chunk of them are rallying on the streets every day to try and keep it that way.
Bless'em
Who's "they"?
"They" are Microsoft, Google, Facebook, etc. Any company that uses this method.
And, assuming you're referring to google, how are they shafting you? It's not your money.
No, it's not my money. It's the communal money that is under so much debate by politicians. And the fact that Google and everyone else has a hundred goddamned lawyers and accountants sitting around saving them billions of dollars does upset me. Because I don't have that. I don't have the option to employ the "double Irish" tactic when trying to save thousands of dollars in taxes each year so I can afford a simple house. Nope, they get that privilege and I don't because I'm poorer than them. So who's being screwed over? Every tax payer that doesn't have or employ those options. If you live in America, that's you. Why is your public education so lacking? Why do your taxes go up? Well, part of it is that companies employ tax evasion methods like the ones listed in the article. I'm not singling out Google, I'm expressing equal anger toward all who employ these methods.
You can call me a socialist, you can call me a communist. That's fine because I know I'm neither of those. I'm just someone that wants a fair playing field when it comes to aggregating X amount of resources so that our government and public services continue to function properly.
The men and women who founded this country cited 'taxation without representation' as one of the reasons. Like them, I'm not okay with lobbyists and tax loopholes that are apparently legal and okay to anyone who has tons and tons and tons of money. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer just because.
My work here is dung.
""Anyone may arrange his affairs so that his taxes shall be as low as
possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which best pays the
treasury. There is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes.
Over and over again the Courts have said that there is nothing sinister
in so arranging affairs as to keep taxes as low as possible. Everyone
does it, rich and poor alike and all do right, for nobody owes any
public duty to pay more than the law demands."" - Judge Learned Hand
Of course, if we'd reign in corporate taxes, we'd bring a lot of capital back home. The US has one of the highest rates of corporate taxes in the world, trailing only Japan and Cameroon. Even France... bastion of Euro-Socialism Lite... has a lower top corporate tax.
Life is hard, and the world is cruel
If corporations were not recognized as individuals in a number of other annoying contexts (political contributions, "personal" rights, etc) then I *might* be inclined to agree. But as it stands, they've got the best of both worlds; no meaningful taxation like individuals are burdened with, but all the same protections and "rights" as well.
I never felt very good about paying into a system that requires me to either be an expert in that system, which would mean spending the equivalent time to get at least a two year degree, just to pay my taxes, or hiring an expert to do them for me. If I am required under penalty of imprisonment to pay taxes, its galling to me that I must also hire an expert to do them for me. Its a ridiculous, and unsustainable, situation that needs to change.
Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
Perhaps if Google paid up more taxe you would pay less ?
The problem is, what has the government done that entitles themselves to Google's income?
You mean besides building the internet in the first place?
If the SEC knows about it, it's clearly not "secret" (any more than a CEO reporting his company stock sale to the SEC is "secret") and if the IRS approved it, it's not tax evasion.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
(and yes, rich people will still pay more in taxes. Even if they just put the money in the bank, it will be spent eventually.)
More in absolute terms, but proportionally much less. Sales taxes are regressive - they make poorer people pay a greater percentage of their income as tax. A poor person can't afford to save, they spend everything that they earn on essentials. A rich person has numerous investments and savings that would not be taxed - they spend a much smaller proportion of their income.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Unless you believe that all money ultimately belongs to the government, I fail to see how this is evil.
I look for every deduction I can grab as well. So does almost everyone else. This isn't wrong.
I disagree. Legal and moral aren't synonymous. As one of the country's largest technology companies, Google has a moral obligation to pay their fair share of taxes whether they're legally obligated to or not. They also have a moral obligation to lobby against these unfair tax codes. You cannot take a neutral stance on moral issues and avoid being evil. Doing good is the only way to avoid being evil because by taking a neutral stance is usually just as bad as being intentionally evil.
It goes back to the old murder issue: If someone is drowning and you have the ability to save them but don't, have you just murdered the person? My answer is: it doesn't matter because regardless, inaction was evil. Our government is drowning in debt and Google is intentionally contributing to the problem. Their attitude is, "I don't want to get wet, someone else can dive in."
They bought consumer trust with their "don't be evil" slogan, it's about time they started living up to it again.
"From the depths of my skeptical and rationalist soul, I ask the Lord to protect me from California touchie-feeliedom."
Its perfectly legal, and they paid all the required taxes in the country where it was earned. No laws were violated.
So what's your beef?
That was my entire point...it shouldn't be legal, and when a company does this, laws should have been violated.
Ok, lets take your (implied) assumption, that Google should pay taxes on its world wide earnings regardless of the country in which it was earned.
Ok? Sound reasonable so far?
Now, google has to follow the law in every country where they have an office and a corporate structure. So same rules apply to all those countries. Earnings in France, US, Japan, etc, all have to have taxes paid in Britain, and again in Norway, and again in China. Never mind that the money was earned in, and kept in the USA.
Has the flaw of your assumption dawned on you yet?
You earn a dollar in the US, and just because you have a post office box in Australia you have to pay their taxes too?
You drove thru another state on your summer vacation. Are you going to file income tax in that state? You used their facilities, roads, etc. How bout paying your fair share?
Any bells going off yet?
Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
First, last I checked, governments were awash in revenue. They just have spent even more. You are essentially arguing that the gambling addict has too much debt so we should give him more money. No thanks.
And what exactly is their "fair share"? There is none that can be objectively ascertained.
Btw, did you overpay your taxes? You're allowed to and not take your deduction.
Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
The widespread use of loopholes by companies/"rich" people always really pissed me off. They constantly complain so much of their wealth is being taken, yet they pull crap like this.
I would bet you that if my wife and I tried to do something similar, we would almost certainly be "caught". I don't know if loopholes are due to the complexity of the system, or because the big guys can afford to pay folks who know how to exploit them...but regardless of the reason, it's fucked up.
This is why need to scrap the entire tax code and replace it a federal sales tax. This shifts the taxes not on what people make, but what they spend. Suddenly everyone would pay taxes including the rich, poor, illegal whoever. No one would be taxed for money saved or invested.
Of course, there would still be loopholes. Medicine, unprocessed food, children's clothes etc can be made tax exempt as to not tax what people need to survive. All other "loopholes" and complexities would disappear instantly. No more extraordinarily wealthy people claiming everything as a loss or business expense in order to avoid taxes on it. If it's purchased, it's taxed.
(and yes, rich people will still pay more in taxes. Even if they just put the money in the bank, it will be spent eventually.)
That is quite possibly one of the most stupid and naive things I've ever read. However, as a person whose household income is over $250k, I'd like to thank you for your efforts to make me wealthier. As you note, I'll put all that money I save in the bank, and then it will be spent eventually when I retire in Europe. Spent in Europe, that is. Resulting in 0 sales tax in the US. Cheers.
So are income taxes.
There is no tax-free situation for the poor with income tax in place.
Assume 30% average tax rate. Poor person pays zero. Then buys a service, such as plumbing. Plumber pays 30%. Poor person pays $100; Plumber gets $70, government takes $30; poor person gets (maybe) $70 worth of plumbing. Effective tax rate for poor person: 30%.
Of course, it's higher if you're middle class: You earn $142; taxed at 30%, you keep $100; you pay plumber $100; government takes $30; you get $70 worth of plumbing. Effective tax rate for middle class: 50%.
Whereas if you're Google, you pay 2.4%, so you earn $102.45, keep $100, pay the plumber $100, govt gets $30, Google gets $70 worth of plumbing. Effective tax rate for Google: 31.6%
By taxing incomes, the government ensures that everyone, most definitely including the poor, pays taxes by catching you (often again) when you spend your money on anything that is taxed. The only way to avoid paying is to only buy things that themselves are not taxed in any way. And good luck with that.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Speaking of stupid memes (reference to your other post) what on Earth do you believe the relevancy of the percentage of total tax revenue to be?
6th grade math: if the tax rate on rich people goes down and the percentage of total income tax revenue from them goes up, what does that imply about the relative worth of all groups? The rich are getting richer. A LOT richer. Despite all this economic downturn I've heard so much about.
1st grade logic corollary: given that money is an imaginary metric with a constantly changing but constantly FINITE global quantity, the lower and middle classes are paying for it.
Raising the tax rate on the rich would not be starting a class war. It would be the bottom 90% finally getting around to fighting the class war that the rich started long ago. I know, I know, I'm a heretic, Reagan was the best president ever, and deregulation makes everything all better.
the top 10% of taxpayers paid 55% of total federal taxes in 2007. The lower 90% of taxpayers paid the other 45%.
In 2007, the top 10% of the population owned 73% of total assets and 83% of financial wealth in the US. If they're only paying 55% of the total taxes than the adage that "only the poor pay taxes" does in fact ring true.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
For the most part, it is very obvious what is illegal and what is not. Many of the complications are there to ensure that the punishment is just. You would not like a system that was teachable to high school students in a semester.
Yeah, but that's just the thing - by what standard do you get to claim they're "cheating" the system, when they are following the rules that are written? I take a deduction for mortgage interest; is that "cheating" becasue it reduces what I pay, or is it just making use of the favorable (to me) provisions of the law? If it's the latter (and I fail to see how it could be otherwise), then how is what Google is doing any different?
If the IRS doesn't intend this to be legal, then they need to change the statutes and/or regulations; otherwise any money "lost" in this way is their fault.
At least to me, TFA's mention of the rather large budget gap faced by the U.S. backfired. I suppose it was meant to say "why are they avoiding making payments that are so badly needed", but what it really conveys is "this is a meaningless drop in the bucket compared to the overall problem, and the government needs to focus on the real issues that have it so short-funded". I mean really, if you subtract 60B from 1.4T, do you know what you get? You get 1.4T.
Most tax returns are because you have overpaid, not because you are getting net income from the government.
Remember, You are unique...just like everyone else.
They may have paid 44.3/61% percent of the taxes, but THEY CONTROL OVER 90% OF THE WEALTH. The way I'm looking at it, I'm still getting screwed. They have 90% of the money, they should pay 90% of the taxes. Hell, I'd be satisfied to go back to the way it was under Reagan, when they paid 70%. But this 44% is bullshit.
It sure is convenient to forget the existence of sales taxes, state income taxes, and the various payroll taxes that everyone collecting a paycheck pays. Poor people actually pay quite a bit in taxes, and it tends to hit them a lot harder.
Check out my world simulator thingy.
In addition, the article is about the 2009 tax year. During the 2009 tax year, Obama's Making Work Pay tax credit disproportionately benefited the poor. That tax credit is now expired, and (unlike with the Bush tax cuts) there is absolutely zero discussion in Washington about extending it.
Anyone who supports extending the Bush tax cuts but fails to support extending the Making Work Pay tax cut is doing exactly what we are accusing you of doing, namely, wanting to keep poor people as the only ones who pay taxes. Presumably this is your stance as well, since I see you favor extending the Bush tax cuts, but not the Making Work Pay tax cut. If this assessment of your position is wrong, please feel free to correct it.
No, corporate mon/oligopoly is the most inefficient way to distribute resources or run anything. And that's the alternative to big government.
No, this is not true. Reducing the tax rate has been proven time and time again to have a positive effect on the economy when coupled with deficit spending. Reducing the tax rate AND government expenditures has been shown time and time again to further depress the economy.
Who pays the organizers of the events? Who paid to train those organizers? Who paid for the advocacy institutes that the "educated" tea partiers use to justify their beliefs?
You just don't want to believe that you've been had. Well, you have been had. You're dancing to the tune of millionaires and billionaires who are laughing their way to the bank as they are seeing limitations to their amassing of wealth disappear.
You know what the saddest thing is? That you don't even realize that the policies you advocate are detrimental to YOU.
"Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
That's income tax. When you look at all tax, which includes sales tax, the poor pay more.
Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
, who do you think will provide investments that create jobs if you tax the rich at 90%? Government?
The same kinds of people who created them from 1954 to 1980 when the top tax brackets was 91%.
Your entire argument fails when I point at the 1954 tax code, signed into law by Eisenhower. There were still rich people. There was still investment. There was still job creation. There was still opposition to the government.
You're crazier than Glen Beck if you actually think a 90% tax bracket would have any of the consequences you're hinting at.
Rich people have been moving overseas for the last 30 years. If you give them more money, they will spend it overseas. If you want to make America's economy stronger, give it to those people who will spend it within the country: the poor and middle class. If the richest corporations take their business elsewhere, other businesses will spring up to take the place and sell it to the enormous market that a powerful US middle class will represent.
You forgot the part where everyone but the richest guy is working for a living, and the richest guy doesn't, since he gets a cut off of everyone else's work.
I hear this a lot. Can you back it up. And no Bill Gates and co don't count. These guys worked bloody hard and took big risks to get their respective companies started and keep them going. They didn't just sit around collecting everyone else's "tax".
I think its just jealously. You think you deserve to be "rich" more than the next fellow. Well you don't. Some are rich because they worked hard and got a little bit lucky, some are rich because they got lucky and some are rich cus daddy was lucky. But that makes them no less deserving of wealth than you.
The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!