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iFixit Tears Down Microsoft's Kinect For Xbox 360
alphadogg writes "Microsoft's new hands-free Kinect game controller is packed with four microphones, two autofocus cameras and a motion detector chip that together make for one heck of a complex toy, according to iFixit's initial teardown of the device. 'We haven't been this excited to get our hands on new hardware since the iPad,' says Kyle Wiens, CEO of the company. 'The way that we interact with computers is (finally) evolving, and Kinect is unlike any hardware we've ever taken apart. In fact, the only thing we've ever taken apart that has anywhere close to this many sensors is Pleo, the dinosaur robot.' iFixit describes Kinect as 'a horizontal bar of sensors connected to a small, motorized pivoting base.' The $150 device that Microsoft put hundreds of millions of dollars of research into can be purchased separately from the Xbox 360 or as part of a bundle. A Prime Sense PS1080-A2 is at the heart of Kinect's motion detection capabilities, as it connects to all of Kinect's sensors and processes images of your game room's color and scope before shooting them over to the Xbox. iFixit couldn't immediately identify all of the chips within the box, so plans to update its teardown."
So MS can reduce the cost of the device in version 2 by dropping half the sensors?
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
Comparing the wii to the Kinect is absurd. One is an accelerometer, the other is a full-body skeletal pose estimator with probably 20 degrees of freedom. Like comparing a flashlight to an LCD display. The only question now is, will Kinect actually work?
I can't believe the summary didn't mention the $2000 bounty reward for making an open source driver.
http://www.adafruit.com/blog/2010/11/04/the-open-kinect-project-the-ok-prize-get-1000-bounty-for-kinect-for-xbox-360-open-source-drivers/
I've had no problems wit hit recognizing me, or any clothing related problems. My kinect sits on my desk, in front of my HDTV, and I have no problem with it reading me. ZERO problem with voice tracking, ever. Sure, it gets mixed up when you do things like cross your arms or hide them behind your back, but it isn't THAT much of an issue. Nothing an update wouldn't fix. And I still hope they release a handheld peripheral to assist with 3D movement in games, or to constantly recognize left/right hands.
Defender of Microsoft and Communism!!!
Well, it does "something" reliably (which might well beat a more ambitious but failed attempt). But compare Dance Dance Revolution style games on the two; with Kinect, you dance and it watches you dance and scores you; on the wii, you just tilt your hand in time with the music. Big difference.
And the Wright brothers couldn't fly around the world in their first plane either.
http://www.joystiq.com/2010/11/04/kinect-vs-our-living-rooms-a-survey/?
"For all the talk of revolutionizing the Xbox 360 experience and making gaming more natural/ accessible, it's bordering on absurd how broken Kinect is when it comes to something as simple as working in your home."
Jeez, that's brutal.
I started iFixit, and I wrote today's teardown. I'm also a long-time /. member.
I totally dig the anti-Microsoft sentiment. But just like with the iPad, we've got real innovation here that came out of a closed environment. Microsoft's got hundreds of millions of dollars invested in visual motion recognition and speech recognition technology. The best reaction all of us in the open source community can have is to use this innovation as a call to action, and as building a block to write open tools. Adafruit's contest is a fantastic start, and I'll be supporting that any way I can.
Got any questions about the hardware that I didn't address in the teardown? Fire away.
Kyle Wiens
Oh boy, a store in NYC over purchased Kinects. And the holiday season is STILL going on. Wow, newsworthy. I also remember completely empty lineups at stores during the PS3 launch, and that sure doomed that system, right???? RIGHT??? Seriously, I work at another major electronics store, and we sold out, and were getting calls from virtually everybody telling us that Toys R Us or Future Shop or various other stores, were sold out. The ONLY thing worth complaining about is a some what lackluster launch featuring too many similar titles (exercise games, sports/minigame compilations, and dance simulators). And most consoles have had shitty launches during the last few gens.
Defender of Microsoft and Communism!!!
I don't mean to make fun of you for speaking a foreign language, but this wasn't just some grammar error. It's hard to tell whether you just didn't understand the comment about hundreds of millions of dollars or are just retarded.
Both newegg.com and amazon.com are currently sold out. I'd say that's pretty damn good.
I'd recommend trying it before you bash it. I've tried it on several occasions in the past (and now own it) and it's accuracy/lag do not feel significantly worse than the wii. I've seen zero problems with lighting, clothing, etc. The voice recognition is actually quite excellent and it even works reasonably well while a video is playing.
The required distance from the device is annoying though. The menu system as well, but thats a software problem and can be fixed. Check out the dance game for a great example of an intuitive menu.
Even if it fails as a gaming device (which I doubt), I still see the ability to control your entertainment system without a remote as being common place in the future. For example, I was watching a movie on my xbox while I was reading slashdot. When I wanted to concentrate on replying to a post, I just said "xbox pause" without my fingers every leaving my computer. In fact, I hope the kinect is a finanicial success, because that will inspire competitors to emulate and improve the experience, which means even more awesome stuff for consumers.
xbox play...
And just about everything in your list is massively exaggerated. My young sister and brother are both happily playing right now and none of the problems you listed appear to exist with maybe the exception of some of the voice commands can be iffy
Good, then go away. Meanwhile the rest of us sane people who aren't fighting a religious war over software companies will continue to enjoy our games.
If you say "as sucky as a Wii" you're already putting yourself into a category of people whose opinions do not reflect any sort of consensus.
I guarantee the criticism won't go away until you stop randomly bringing up international politics in random discussions, making irrelevant comparisons, calling clear and verifiable statements of fact "a lie", and tossing around opinions you know are widely disagreed with (that the Wii sucks) as if they proved your point. I'm sure you're better at my language than I am at yours (unless maybe it's French, and then only maybe), but your stuff is difficult to understand.
http://www.industrygamers.com/news/microsoft-had-to-cap-kinect-pre-orders-because-demand-too-great/
Defender of Microsoft and Communism!!!
I'd hate to have been an engineer working on this thing. Putting all your heart and soul into the R&D trying to make something novel, interesting and cutting-edge, and all you get in response is hate.
Not that I'm defending the product or Microsoft. Theory is nice but if the physical product sucks then it sucks, but it's kinda obvious why companies are afraid to try something different.
There was a genuine production problem for the wii; whereas Microsoft has kinect supply chain figured out. Still, ubisoft is predicting shortages this season - http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=118957&page=1
of course they do, there are litterally hundreds of thousands of pre orders and believe it or not, not everyone picks it up the day its released. Current estimates have been upped from 3 million to 5 million sold by end of year.
My only complaint as a non-kinect user is the update introduces significant lag in the menu system.
It's not horrible, but it's not nearly as smooth as it was.
There was no gain for non-kinect users as well... unless you like the windows 3.1 menu look and feel.
"You should always go to other people's funerals; otherwise, they won't come to yours." -- Yogi Berra
If Microsoft whips out the ability to use this as a 3D webcam with my PC, I'd buy it in a heartbeat. Screw the 360, I want this for my computer.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
Really? Maybe that would be why I told him to use his default. In case you hadn't noticed, he was bragging about his depth of knowledge in languages a few posts ago, or can't we trouble you to keep up with the fucking thread?
...this is actually opening up some interesting potential. This thing is a tool to recognize and track persons and their movements in a room, no more and no less. Have some of such things in your home, one in each room, connected to a small server. Improve the voice recognition and speech synthesis, add some software and you've got something very close to a home that is watching you, your family and your guests, knows where you are, what you're doing, what you're saying and can speak to you. Give the software access to all your personal communication and data (email, phone, voicebox, scheduling, ...) and your house starts to become aware of you and your life. Could be very interesting (and also very spooky).
Open Source drivers for these things would open up a world of interesting things to do with it, no doubt.
Tried one yesterday and i was very disappointed. My Eye-Toy, the Sony product Microsoft copied and extended is eight years old and still more responsive. The lag was very annoying and made games like boxing unbearable since you punch and your boxer punches long after on the screen.
Since i have used Eye-Toy extensively i was expecting that the Kinect would be much better but it was actually worse in some respects. The tech behind kinect/Eye-Toy has been used extensively in arcades etc so its actually pretty surprising Microsoft couldnt get it right. Perhaps they had to work themselves around some patents of variants that actually work and in the process ended up with an inferior product.
HTTP/1.1 400
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that HD-DVD wasn't Microsoft's invention and the BluRay/HD war was in full swing when they designed their console. It's just that their format lost and Sony's won.
This is no different in principal than the PS3 motion controls. They're both trying to capitalize on the light-gun/motion controller market since that is extinct since the CRT/owned by the Wii.
I am by no means a fanboy of any console, but Microsoft is at least trying to do something much cooler than the 6-axis. I for one would love to see a modern console with proper motion controls (sorry Wii, but you're essentially a Gamecube with a reworked power-glove. Control is great, but CPU/Video performance-wise it isn't even comparable)
Both consoles lack compelling titles since they are expensive add-ons that people won't necessarily buy. It's like the Sega 32x all over again. Addons create console fragmentation and developers won't cater to it since they won't be guaranteed sufficient customers to make a profit.
I don't see any innovation here. Kinect and iPad are both just evolutionary steps. None of the concepts of these devices are in any form new. To have companies with infinite resources make products out of ideas and concepts that have been researched and prototyped for decades by public institutions as well as the private sector is not innovation.
String enough evolutions together and you get a revolution. Like the Wiimote, which put Bluetooth-enabled accelerometers and infrared cameras into a small handheld device at a price that anyone can afford, this Kinect camera device has the potential to seriously change how the do-it-yourself community interacts with their computers. Think of all the new applications the open source community came up with for the Wiimote, many of which were featured here on /.; now imagine what they'll be able to come up with for this device.
I can't wait to see what comes around when someone builds usable open drivers for this baby. I don't own a 360, but the prospect of plugging this into my computer or HTPC and getting voice controls, facial recognition, and arbitrary movement recognition for use as input are giving me chills. I mean, just look at what you get for $150: two cameras, an IR projector, four microphones, all mounted on a motorized base with hardware/software that can generate a 3D image in approximately realtime. I can't wait to be able to sign my name in midair to use as my password.
"Computer, open Firefox; website: slashdot.org."
Linus Torvalds places value in a well executed implementation. Isn't there value in producing a very well implemented product?
Wait, you're on /. and you think dancing is different from tilting your hand in time with the music?
Yeah the guy is a troll, look at his post history. He made a similarly stupid post last time Kinect was discussed. Criticism of Kinect is fair enough but some of the points he made don't even make sense- complaints about lighting etc. when it works using IR. Still he gets modded up because he's slagging off Microsoft and that gives your average Slashdotter a hardon no matter how factually incorrect it is.
That's not to say all his points are invalid, the distance thing is a bit of a pain certainly (although the Wii and Move struggle at very short distances too) but for the most part he's just trolling.
a kinect review
Highs:
* Just plain fun
* Limitless potential, could move beyond gaming.
* New, innovative technology will only get better.
Lows:
* $150 price on top of Xbox 360 console
* Half-second of inherent lag
* Fairly basic games
* Only handles two players at a time
german summry
Approximative transaltion in english :
The setup is a problem too. So kinect needs really much place and has problem with light. One tester from joystiq was not
recognized due to his glasses, because it was reflecting too much light.
Whoever want to paly to 2 needs 3 meter of free palce from TV (9 foot aprox) which needs a lot of moving furniture by many.
Which means also that the dashboard features like move command cannot be used when one want to do only a to watch a film, not to play.
Also the price is critized.
IGN video review linked ina rticle
Mixed reviews for kinect
My verdict from what i all read : the lag will probably limit it to games where it is not too important (casual family game, or game where a 1/3 to 1/5 second lag has no impact). Tech looks good and could be a revolution, but at the moment too expensive. Wait and see for Kinect 1.2 with a good offering of games.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
I am sorry, but it's people like you who totally miss the point of Kinect. You probably bitched about Macs when they first came out because using a mouse would never be as fast as your DOS typing speed.
It is a control-less controller. You don't have to hold any wands, press any buttons or do anything like that. They have finally made it possible. V1 probably isn't perfect, as these things never are. However give it a couple of years, the price/size will get smaller and eventually they will start building things like this into TVs and monitors. Now imagine lying on the sofa flicking through the TVs EPG as it knows, relative to your head, what part of the screen your finger is on. That is the future.
I have excellent Karma and I am not afraid to Troll it.
I also wonder if they've even thought about the logistics. In all the adverts people are using it in massive open plan living spaces, that's just not a realistic representation of most people's homes (especially in countries where housing prices are high and living space has to be maximised, the UK, Japan, other parts of Europe, I can't speak for typical US homes as I only see fictional representations of them on TV and they're all either huge empty white spaces or cluttered messes). Personally the only way I could make this work is to throw away my coffee table - the Wii balance board just about works because the sensor can look over the table at the control and doesn't need to know what I'm doing with my legs, but the Kinect seems to need a massive open space just to get a decent field of view. I think people are going to either be put off by that (if they bother to think about it) or else they'll buy this, realise it's not practical and leave it in the box after the novelty wears off.
Beyond simple games for kids and stuff like video chat, I can't see a practical use for this, and if that's all you're using it for MS could have done it with a £15 webcam instead of a £150 sensor array. That doesn't mean it won't sell by the bucket-load, of course - I couldn't and still can't see a real use for the balance board but it didn't stop it selling millions and me spending the best part of a month hunting one down for my girlfriend the year after it was released.
like how the ease of use of the Wii did (well once they fixed that damned controller). The difference is, with the Wii you can "game" it. As in, half the time the motions you make with the controller really don't have any bearing on what your avatar is doing. What I have see of kinect is that we finally have a system which does what you physically do. None of the "interpretation" like the Wii controller .
It will probably open up gaming to more people now. I can see great uses in exercise programs here, your own personal trainer who really does know if your doing it right. Think of the ability to extend this to at home rehabilitation! That alone makes this device a break through.
Many of us keep lamenting all those wonder sci fi depictions of what computer technology can do and when its delivered some simply dismiss it because its from Microsoft.
It is a good start. Perhaps it will give other people the inspiration to help us make a real leap.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
Have you actually read the Kotaku or Cnet reviews? Cnet calls it 'the most fun you can have with your hands free'. Kotaku, while acknowledging there are a number of flaws, says that it 'can be revolutionary'. I wouldn't exactly say either of these reviews are 'trashing' the Kinect.
I just don't see it living up to that promise. I watch my kids play wii - at first, they were jumping all over the place. Now they lay on the sofa, and "play tennis" by simply waving the controller a few inches.
Until the kinect is smart enough to figure out that *this* finger flick means hit the ball, and *this* finger flick means "shoo fly" and *this* motion means change the menu and *this* motion means I'm reaching for the chips, all while laying on the sofa and moving about 12" at most, it ain't gonna work.
My kids use games to kick back and do nothing; they don't use them as some sort of false athleticism. All the kinect hoo rah has been about how you will jump around your living room; at least in my house when we want to do something we go out and do it. When we want to lay on the sofa and veg, that's what we do. Where does the kinect fit in?
I think this will find uses MS never expected if it stays on the market long enough; pet monitors, some researcher will start using this to measure erosion in a channel, or something - but as a game controller I see a minimal market.
Just as an observation, in the live demos they were doing in the Macy's windows in NYC a week or two ago there was only about 3-4 feet of width and roughly 6-7 feet of open space in front of the Kinect. I would say the demoer was roughly about 5' away, and had just enough room to swing her arms. That's a much better representation of a living room than most stage demos, and the Kinect was still picking up all her movements just fine.
Well, it does "something" reliably (which might well beat a more ambitious but failed attempt). But compare Dance Dance Revolution style games on the two; with Kinect, you dance and it watches you dance and scores you; on the wii, you just tilt your hand in time with the music. Big difference.
The amazing thing is that Just Dance on the Wii was a suprise 3rd party succes selling 2 million worldwide (http://uk.wii.ign.com/articles/108/1081134p1.html) despite low reviewscores. So even with the low tech measuring tilt scoring mechanism they managed to make a good selling profitable game.
Now we can make a Kinect Dance Dance Revolution game for X-Box that has more accurate scoring but wil it realy matter. Its a game not a dance tutoring game. The main object of the game is to make you do stupid moves in front of your friends. On the Wii Just Dance manages to do that with just the basic hardware and a game. On the X-box you need a $ 150 add-on and a game. I'm sure that part of the succes of Just Dance is low price an no extra addon required.
Sure the X-box games is techincaly superior but when you look at the intended market that won't matter a thing....
"Not having to press" something is nice, but what if I actually want to fire an action by hardly noticeable movement of the finger? I guess I can't do it with Kinect as it's too subtle a movement to reliably detect.
Why is lack of buttons considered to be a step forward?
No "actual gamer" is going to buy this device. Most that might have been inclined have probably already been burned by the Playstation Eye(Toy). The Kinect has already been and will be lambasted by the traditional gaming community.
But as the Wii proved, "actual gamers" don't actually matter. This device is being marketed to just about everyone else, and will likely sell as to parents and the like as a supposed mini-console to a younger gamer. At least for this Christmas; I fully expect shops to be flooded with second hand Kinects come February.
May the Maths Be with you!
It was never designed for playing "COD Black OPs" was it? Most iPhone games wouldn't work with a joypad either. They will just find some other way of doing things. The trouble with the XBOX fraternity is its so hung up on shooters, in a way the WIii crowd wasn't.
I have excellent Karma and I am not afraid to Troll it.
I'm one of those that wouldn't mind moving my coffee table to play. After all, I've spent thousands over the years keeping my gaming rig up to date, what is moving some furniture.
The big problems I see is input lag and the processing being done on the Xbox. That leaves less processing for the actual game itself, and the lag issue probably won't get much better until Microsoft releases new specs for the Xbox to handle the kinect.
My other curiosity is can I still play certain titles while sitting on a chair?
I will eventually get a unit. Hopefully a revision or two down the line. Microsoft aminosity aside, this is one of those big leap concepts that even if the initial device doesn't do what it should, it can still revolutionize a stagnant part of the industry. The mouse and keyboard/gamepad hasn't really changed much in years. This could change all that. Even the Wii motion technology is a bit primetive compared to something like this. It's fine for what it does, but doesn't cross over to computing very well. This does. Microsoft smartly put R&D money into this, because now they probably have a ton of patents on the next generation of periphreal.
Stepmania caught on at my house for a brief time. Cotton-Eye Joe has a series of star jumps in it that, when performed on the top floor, result in the ceiling of the lower floor shaking so much that dust falls off and a bulb was once broken.
What?
Homosaywhat?
What. You happy now?
Shame I'm not using my Mac.
Boot Windows, Linux, and ESX over the network for free.
It's not some religious thing. Fer reals, Microsoft makes shitty software. And on top of that, it has yet to invent something a competitor didn't do first. DOS... Zune... Windows... It's all "borrowed".
The camera's aside, the concept/innovation isn't the hardware, but how it recognises a person as an individual. My memory is a bit fuzzy, but I did read a few articles on Project Natal/Kinect, and the major hurdle wasn't the 3D camera, the voice recognition, etc. It was putting it all together to recognise not only movement, but who a person is by many distinct factors, and following that person throughout the experience.
That to me is major innovation alone. I remember the EyeToy, and used one. This is not that. Maybe the EyeToy is a subset of this, as is a bunch of technology. The innovation of the Kinect is putting all this technology together in one package and getting it to work as a unified device.
I'm not totally sold this will be a great device for the Xbox, but this is the first thing I've seen in a long time that has really made me see a real shift in the way we interact with computers. The Wimote and the Sony move systems are really still tying people to a controller. In other words, this is the first device I've seen that really reaches out to the user, not the other way around. Even the EyeToy didn't do that.
I don't mean to sound like a Microsoft shrill in anyway. If Sony did this, or Apple, I would be just as curious, and hopeful. I just think the way they tied the technology together, and the way in which they plan to use it and have it interact is way too cool to dismiss as just another gimmick.
Comparing the wii to the Kinect is absurd.
No it's not absurd. They are competing for the same demographic, casual gamers. Rather than getting caught up in the full-body skeletal, 100,000 degrees of freedom sales talk the real question is: Is there a library of great games that make it worth paying $150? Right not IMO the answer is no. Getting caught up with the technical aspects of the Kinect (yes they are impressive) doesn't matter for most people. Historical examples prove that having the most powerful hardware doesn't matter: DS vs PSP, winner: DS, PS2 vs Xbox vs Gamecube, winner: PS2, on and on. It's been said before, powerful hardware doesn't sell systems, a library of great games sell systems.