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The Placebo Effect Not Just On Drugs
dvdme writes "It seems the placebo effect isn't just valid on drugs. It's also a fact on elevators, offices and traffic lights. An article by Greg Ross says: 'In most elevators installed since the early 1990s, the 'close door' button has no effect. Otis Elevator engineers confirmed the fact to the Wall Street Journal in 2003. Similarly, many office thermostats are dummies, designed to give workers the illusion of control. "You just get tired of dealing with them and you screw in a cheap thermostat," said Illinois HVAC specialist Richard Dawson. "Guess what? They quit calling you." In 2004 the New York Times reported that more than 2,500 of the 3,250 "walk" buttons in New York intersections do nothing. "The city deactivated most of the pedestrian buttons long ago with the emergence of computer-controlled traffic signals, even as an unwitting public continued to push on."'"
I read an article in the Washington Post ~20 years ago about people waiting in lines. A hotel was constantly receiving complaints about the speed of their elevators. They kept tweaking the elevators, but the complaints continued to roll in (despite the quantifiable improvements). Rather than continuing to pursue the problem with technology, they turned to psychology and installed mirrors in the elevator lobby. Seems that if people have something interesting to look at (to them at least), the time passes more quickly and they do not notice that the elevators are slow. After they made this final change, the complaints stopped. I think about this every time I see a mirror in an elevator lobby.
In theory, practice and theory are the same. In practice, they're not.
I was recently in an office building where the elevators had no buttons at all. In front of the elevator was a keypad where you typed which floor you needed to go to, the system assigned you an elevator and you could only get on and be delivered to your earlier chosen floor.
http://virtualize.wordpress.com/
"most elevators installed since the early 1990's, the close door button has no effect"
and yet i frequently use the close door button to real effect in nearly every elevator i have been in in the last fifteen years including ones installed since 2000.
meanwhile, some news claims aren't factual but people believe they are because they are made by news agencies.
"Stratigraphically the origin of agriculture and thermonuclear destruction will appear essentially simultaneous" -- Lee
the close door buttons DO work in our building (FWIW we have Otis) but there's a trick which I've experimentally confirmed: something has to trip the sensor between the inner & outer doors to make it think someone has gotten on or off. I can consistently (100x out of 100 tries) replicate the following behavior: if elevator stops on floor w/nobody waiting I simply waive my hand in the gap, press the close button & the doors immediately close/elevator continues - press the button w/o something having tripped the sensor & it just sits there till its normal timeout period.
individual results may vary but I've successfully been doing this for 10+ yrs at my current employer...
I keep voting and nothing new happens.
You joke, but during the Suharto regime in Indonesia (1967 - 1998) they held elections and a large part of the population thought they lived in a democracy as a result. They had a very large, and politically diverse, number of parties and they allowed them all to have rallies etc.
Come election day, nothing ever changed and the people were more content than they would have been without the illusion of political contention, it was very educational to watch.
XML is a known as a key material required to create SMD: Software of Mass Destruction
Exactly, no placebo affect here, just poor documentation.
No, they are for it, they just don't want to pay for it so they say no.
When I was a young-hacker, I worked as a bellman.. It was slack work except when tour busses came in and then it was a scramble to get luggage up to the rooms. It meant multiple trips with a full cart and no passengers... What I couldn't handle was the long rides down to the lobby stopping at 10+ floors to pickup additional passengers... I soon discovered that if I held the 'door close' button while the elevator was descending, it would stop at the floors where people had pushed the 'down' button but the door wouldn't open. The elevator would stop. Hesitate for about 1.5 seconds, and then start moving again. The unfortunate drawback was that outside of the car, the 'down' light would go out and the waiting passengers would have to press it again to call for another elevator. I then learned that I didn't have to hold the door-close button. If I felt the car slow down and managed to press the button before the car came to a full stop, I could trigger the override.
Eventually, I got a copy of a master key (which I still have) that allowed me to just put the elevator in service mode and didn't have to override anything.
*woosh*
That's the point. The drinks in the original post have some nutrition value. Diet Coke and Coke Zero are made to trick your senses, make you feel better about your choice, and not solve the existing problem. That is, they are an chemical concoction that is designed to deceive your taste buds, is passed as the healthy choice, and actually increases your thirst.
Oh PowersThatBe, I just killed a good joke by over-explaining it ;-)
No good deed goes unpunished...
With a straight face, yes Al Gore would have gone to war with Iraq in his first term.
The Clinton/Gore administration were hawkish on Iraq from 1993 on. The escalation of bombing radar, C2 and C3 nodes in the Northern and Southern No-fly zones were all Clinton policies. Desert Fox was a Clinton administration operation, and the Democrats were fired up in 1999 to start a war with Serbia and invaded Haiti in 1995.
Al Gore ran in 2000 as being more interventionist abroad than George W. Bush did
http://www.ontheissues.org/al_gore.htm
http://www.ontheissues.org/Celeb/Al_Gore_Foreign_Policy.htm#Internationalism
Following the loss in 2000, Gore went to an oppose Bush policy mode from the spring of 2002 which continues.
Of course, the disproof of your position is simple and actually happened.
An individual vote is worthless. No election with more than probably 10,000 voters (WAG here) would ever proceed to conclusion if the tally was 50% +1. The uncertainty would make recounts essentially unending, interested parties would split hairs until their donors' budgets ran out and the larger team of lawyers "won" and were vindicated by an "authority". People would be angry and call for a different outcome, but their voices would fade away eventually. Of course, this is all academic, because individuals' votes really can make a difference! If we voted for unicorns, and REALLY, TRULY believed, Tinkerbell would deliver them, right? I mean, nothing like the ever happened, did it?
An individual can greatly affect an election, but not by voting. Individuals affect elections by convincing other individuals to follow their lead, be it through charisma, money, intimidation, trickery, etc. If every single large scale political donor, PAC organizer, get-out-the-vote volunteer and party official didn't vote at all, their effect on the election would be almost precisely identical. It's not the vote that decides things, it's how they convince many, many other people to vote. Not as individuals, but as a herd.
"I must not fear. Fear is the mind killer." -Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear
With a straight face, yes Al Gore would have gone to war with Iraq in his first term.
I don't buy that, you fail to account for two things. First, the Cheney factor. Secondly the fact that Gore would have probably been busy in Afghanistan as retaliation for 9-11. Its possible he might have just sent in some special forces and concentrated on getting Bin-Laden. Given the f**kup in Tora bora, which probably can be blamed partially on the Iraq "strategy" its possible we might actually have been out of the intervention before the 04 election because Bin Laden would have been caught. Instead we spent 700B busting a 3rd rate dictator that was effectively hemmed in. If Sadam had acted up, Gore probably would have just bombed him same as Clinton.
That's not true. Most people want to live off a government check AND smoke weed all day.
I often get up early to jog or bike. At 6:00 AM, when I'm on a side street coming to an intersection with an arterial, and the light is red for me and green for the arterial, pressing the walk button will _immediately_ change the light for the arterial to yellow.
At 8:00 AM, however, with rush-hour traffic clogging up the arterial, the walk button appears to do nothing.
It is our money Damnit.
It really easy to spend money that isn't yours. Too danm easy actually, and that is a problem. And we're in debt up to our eyeballs on programs that don't do what they were supposed to do.
And instead of fixing the programs that are going bust, we just add onto the problem with another underfunded mandated fiasco waiting to happen. But as long as we get people hooked on government its all good, right??
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
That's the point. The drinks in the original post have some nutrition value. Diet Coke and Coke Zero are made to trick your senses, make you feel better about your choice, and not solve the existing problem. That is, they are an chemical concoction that is designed to deceive your taste buds, is passed as the healthy choice, and actually increases your thirst.
Can I just repeat that, except it is not just your taste buds that are deceived, but also bits of your body chemistry that prepare to handle incoming sugar, then find that there was no sugar, and then they seriously _want_ sugar. There is also the danger of developing diabetes which happens when you feed the body too much sugar - fake sugar has exactly the same effect. And twice the effects if you drink diet coke and then eat sweets because your body wants the sugar.
Desert Badger, the operation was written up late in '99 and early '00, Clinton and Blair had already agreed if a Northern or Southern Watch plane went down in Iraq they'd use it as the trigger for an invasion of Basra and Kurdistan. Those planes weren't going to keep doing CAPs forever without an accident.
I still firmly believe that with Gore in the White House the US would have gone into Iraq. Lieberman was just as hawkish about Iraq as Cheney was.
The Tora Bora "fuck up" happened before the war drums started beating for Iraq, really it was a hold over of the post-Vietnam and Desert One idea that the US public wouldn't stomach any military casualties.
We didn't bomb the crap out of fires in the Hindu Kush or go into Tora Bora cause we didn't want American casualties nor did the lawyers think we could just bomb camp fires.
I'll add another to your list. I'm a very small government conservative (against Department of Education, against even a large standing army, etc.). But I support socialized healthcare. Why? Because it's the only feasible pathway away from employer controlled healthcare. We've already killed the biggest noose employers put around their employees (pensions), the last big thing is health care. Once you strip that away from the employer you will see TONS of people starting up that small business they've always wanted to. Nothing will be better for capitalism in America than socializing healthcare. Mark my words. It's coming, and it'll be great when it happens.
Check out my lame java blog at www.javachopshop.com
Funny thing... my dad spent his career designing intersections and the systems which run them...
Those buttons do function. How they function depends on the local traffic control system. Generally the computer controlling the system notes that someone is waiting to cross and alters the timing of upcoming signal events to allow for pedestrians to safely cross.
Your dad was right though, nothing happens immediately when you push the button.
If some municipalities, like New York mentioned in the topic, want to skimp out on public services... then they don't hire competent systems designers and you may indeed end up with placebo buttons.
programs that don't do what they were supposed to do
Like which ones? I can't think of any agencies that don't do what they are supposed to.
There might ALSO be a longer duration of green/walk light combination, to allow the pedestrian to get across. (At least in some places, apparently not NYC, if you don't hit the walk button, it will stay Don't Walk even when that direction's traffic light is green.)
I'll add another to your list. I'm a very small government conservative (against Department of Education, against even a large standing army, etc.). But I support socialized healthcare. Why? Because it's the only feasible pathway away from employer controlled healthcare. We've already killed the biggest noose employers put around their employees (pensions), the last big thing is health care. Once you strip that away from the employer you will see TONS of people starting up that small business they've always wanted to. Nothing will be better for capitalism in America than socializing healthcare. Mark my words. It's coming, and it'll be great when it happens.
You state a problem ("employer controlled healthcare is a noose around employees") and jump to a solution ("make it free for everyone").
Why not come up with a solution that is better aimed at the problem? Like: Pass a law that says, "you want to be in the Health Insurance Game (i.e. Wellpoint, Cigna, Humana, Aetna, United Health, etc), you are REQUIRED to accept pre-existing conditions, and offer insurance to individuals."
In fact, the government could require standardization of plan offerings across the industry (much like the government dictates what "grade A Extra Large Eggs" are). The industry group - representatives from Wellpoint, Cigna, etc. (not the government "death panels") could define what a Plan A "The Insurance Company takes all the risk" through Plan Z "Insured is willing to take more risk". If we were all looking at the same "industry norms" menu, we could make logical decisions for ourselves.
Since I'm really only concerned about catastrophic, I would like to buy a plan Z, and I'll deal with my own minor issues.
Imagine this: right now I have a prescription for a daily medication that the insurance company is only willing to pay for one every four days. So somehow, when faced with the "buy it for $117 or pass on it", I get by without it. I am making economic decisions. We all should be making economic decisions. Now, this isn't a life-or-death decision for me, it's addressing a minor inconvenience. But I'm good with that.
I fail to see how paying for any idiot to walk into an emergency room because they have a headache is going to spur entrepreneurship!
I'm generally amazed when a button actually DOES work. (I lived in a building where the elevator doors instantly responded. That was great.)
When buttons do nothing, I just fume at the city or whatever agency I happen to live under the management of.
But Placebo?
Far too much is attributed to that effect. I think there must be a sliding scale of environmental awareness where some people are a lot more easily fooled than others. Heck, I know this to be true. I wonder if perhaps those who cry, "Placebo Effect!" are among those who are more easily fooled and thus have a hard time working out what reality is actually doing most of the time. Perhaps this is why science is so important to them? Their instincts are poor and thus they need a reliable system of reality reading, not to fall back on or use in conjunction with, but as their primary guide to existence.
Hm. Interesting.
-FL
The point about office thermostats is true where I work. I have a nice new office complete with thermostat. The temperature regularly climbs to beyond 82 Degrees F (that's ~28C), when I complained about it, they told me to use the thermostat to adjust the temp. That was the point where I told them that I watched the process of construction as they built the office, and that I know that the thermostat is a dummy (looks good, but isn't connected to anything, wires just dangling in the wall). At this point they realized they were busted, but still wouldn't do anything for me. The claim is that fixing this for me would require the re-balancing of the the entire building, and they weren't going to do it for just one person. So I keep a fan going for when it's too warm, and a sweater for wen it's too cold. For them the ruse still worked, I don't complain any longer, 'cause I know that nothing will change.
I've also seen thermostats that, while they don't directly control the system, do alter the way the system cycles. I believe it's some kind of 'intelligent' system that realizes if Department A wants 70F and Department B (next door, open air) wants 90F, it's a waste of energy doing them separately and just pushes out 80F.
I worked at a facility where a thermostat set above seventy-something is in air conditioning mode and set below that is heating mode. And I worked with morons whom alternated it at extremes and then couldn't figure out why the HVAC didn't work. I get to work and its about 50 in the cubes ... cow orker says "I'm freezing so I set it to 85" ... "Well, don't you think 85 is kind of high for the airconditioner?" I turn it down to 70 and we warm right up. Same deal in the summer. Its 90 in the cubes because some clown set it to 60 placing us in heating mode, and god knows its well above 60 so nothing happens. I crank it up to 75 and we're soon chilling. And the amazing part is these people NEVER LEARNED. Ever. I would imagine they're still all screwed up.
I'm amazed how many people think HVAC is strictly proportional and the thermostat tells the machinery how hard to work. That technology exists but is rare and expensive and you almost certainly don't have it.
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
"Further, people STILL don't know everything that is in the healthcare law and that is STILL creating future uncertainty. It's pointless to hire and train new people today if you don't know if you'll be able to afford them in 6 months or a year." Nice Fox News talking points. As an employer, I can tell you that this particular Fox News talking point is absolute hogwash. It's so wrong, it's laughable. Employers don't decide to hire or not hire people based on taxes. Maybe huge, tax-dodging employers do (ie: Haliburton, Wal-Mart), but small and mid size employers hire people when they need them, regardless of what the tax rate is now or in the future. Do you honestly think that Joe Blow sandwich shop owner thinks, "I really need to hire another person to cover the morning shift, but I'd better hold off because my tax bill may go up by 3% next year"? C'mon. You don't have to be a business owner to understand this. You just have to be able to think. The whole "uncertainty" story that Fox News/Republicans have drummed up is just plain stupid. Nobody knows what the future holds.
I don't respond to AC's.
The bigger the better. Hitting politicians with hammers is one area where I'm as liberal as they come.
Maybe indeed.
But who should really vote for the Libs?
Quote wiki: "The political platform of the Libertarian Party reflects its brand of libertarianism, favoring minimally regulated, laissez-faire markets, strong civil liberties, minimally regulated migration across borders, and non-interventionism in foreign policy that respects freedom of trade and travel to all foreign countries."
The Libertarians seem more obsessed about quantity than quality - whether for Government or regulation.
That sort of thinking seems rather stupid to me. Less does NOT automatically mean good. I don't see how "minimally regulated, laissez-faire markets" is going to serve the US people well. Trust me, you want _well_ regulated markets, not minimally regulated markets.
It's quality that matters more, not quantity.
Just look around the world and you'd see countries in deep shit because of small corrupt governments and minimally regulated "everything".
The markets need good regulation, and sometimes that means _heavy_ regulation, sometimes minimal regulation[1]. You have to put the right people in charge of stuff, but when the people at the top are obsessed with quantity and not quality, they're getting the fundamentals wrong already, so what can you expect?
[1] Remember the people voting at the ballot boxes would be doing just about as good a job (if not worse) voting with their wallets.