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Microsoft Says Kinect Left Open By Design
kai_hiwatari writes "Around two week ago when Adafruit announced a bounty for developing an open-source driver for the Kinect, Microsoft made it clear that they didn't condone it. Now Microsoft seems to have realized the potential of their device and has made a U-turn. Alex Kipman, Xbox Director of Incubation, now says that they left the Kinect open by design. Kipman said, 'What has happened is someone wrote an open-source driver for PCs that essentially opens the USB connection, which we didn't protect, by design, and reads the inputs from the sensor.'"
We totally meant to do that cool thing you guys thought we didn't mean to do ... and stuff.
Just guess which will be my next console
Wow, those grapes look really sour from down here.
Liberty - Security - Laziness - Pick any two.
I think what he meant to say about the earlier statement was that Microsoft turned 360 degrees and walked away from it.
Corporate may have wanted it closed but the engineers left it open. I'm guessing some of the engineers hoped folks would do fun stuff with it. But to say MS wanted it open is crap since reps said a few times now the opposite in quite an aggressive tone. Note that I take issue with the article title, not what Alex Kipman said.
Large print giveth, and the small print taketh away
If Microsoft's knee-jerk reaction is the wrong one, well, that's to be expected. They're assholes by nature. But, if after sleeping on it (and consulting with their lawyers and engineers and finding out there's nothing they can do that won't eat up every cent of profit they might have made on the thing) they come up with the right decision, I'm willing to forget their previous stance. Keep it up long enough, and they might even earn some goodwill.
<xml><I><am><so><damn>Web 2.0</damn></so></am></I></xml>
This sounds exactly like what was said on NPR Science Friday yesterday -- probably a regurgitation of that program. What the article doesn't point out: M$ is locking down the interesting parts at tightly as possible --- that is, you can drink from the 30 fps firehose of data coming out the USB, but there's no access to the interesting libraries to turn that into information. Can't blame 'em M$ has about three years work (no idea how large the team is) in those libs.
How else would they get new ideas to steal?
Yeah, yeah, it was by design! And if you believe that, we've got a nice bridge^H^H^H^H^H^Hoperating system to sell you. :)
"That we left open by design..."
=
"That we forgot to lock properly..."
They've learned that closing down the system just makes it a fun game for some to crack it?
Before open driver:
"Developing open drivers for the Kinect hardware will be considered here at MS as tampering with trade secrets, and will be prosecuted as such."
After:
"Oh no no no no no we totally designed it that way in order to foster, um, innovation?...yeah good job to those guys."
The first thing to talk about is, Kinect was not actually hacked. Hacking would mean that someone got to our algorithms that sit inside of the Xbox and was able to actually use them, which hasn’t happened. Or, it means that you put a device between the sensor and the Xbox for means of cheating, which also has not happened. That’s what we call hacking, and that’s what we have put a ton of work and effort to make sure doesn’t actually occur.
What has happened is someone wrote an open-source driver for PCs that essentially opens the USB connection, which we didn’t protect, by design, and reads the inputs from the sensor.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win."
...was from the lawyers. Probably MSFT engineers were thrilled with the tech community phenomenon all along, and now have permission to say so. To anyone but a lawyer it's obvious that everybody wins in this situation -- hardware hackers get really cool toys to play with, Microsoft sells a few more, and -- most importantly for Microsoft -- they will get critical technical analysis and feedback that they would never get from ordinary (game) consumers. If they're smart, they'll use this process for product improvement. Here's hoping they can keep the lawyers out at the golf course for awhile. :)
"We also /wanted/ the Kin to fail after like 9 minutes on the market as a learning experience for our Win7 phone team"
System Menu update 4.2 anyone?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
It's Microsoft... they always smile for the cameras
Hacking would mean that someone got to our algorithms that sit inside of the Xbox and was able to actually use them, which hasn’t happened. Or, it means that you put a device between the sensor and the Xbox for means of cheating, which also has not happened.
No, that's cracking. Hacking seems to be exactly what has taken place... The device has been used as defined by the user, not the original software, for purposes outside of the original scope of the device as intended by the producer of the device.
Twinstiq, game news
If you can't prove you own an Xbox the price is $250
I always thought that Kinect was a software-only solution. Why on Earth would you want to buy a $200 thee-eyed webcam? Realtime image recognition is a very CPU-intensive task and is performed by the xbox CPU. My bet is that the software R&D costs were at least one figure higher that the hardware.
Words are cheap, including (often deserved) anti-MS comments on /. MS could very easily go the Apple/Sony route and push updates in an attempt to break third-party software that uses Kinect. If they do not do this, they deserve some credit for defying the 'my use case only' approach that appears to be the trend in consumer electronics these days.
I haven't seen any Kinect APIs or support in Visual Studio. I do see some very early libraries by some 3rd parties.
For Steve "Developers^3" Balmer to not have the resources in place is pretty ludicrous and tantamount to negligence. They obviously have all the pieces, I just don't see them in play. If they were smart, they would start rolling this out the SDK and OS integration before Christmas. Unfortunately, I have about as much faith in MS handling this right as I do the Dallas Cowboys making the Super Bowl this year.
I am much more excited by gesture and voice controls then touch interfaces. I have a cold this week and just trying to keep my monitor clean without touching it is a challenge.
or else it gets the embrace-extend-extinguish again.
Kind of reminds me of the time that the Windows source code was leaked whoops I mean made open source
Most game developers won't develop games for a pricey peripheral until Microsoft can say we've sold XXX (large number) of Kinects. Even if they're losing money on them (I've read arguments both ways) they need every sale they can get to guarantee a steam of games for it. Even if that means Joe-Linux is getting a Microsoft subsidized IR webcam.
How can they think anyone would believe this?
It is ridiculous not to, it would be easy for them to encrypt the code, they haven't even tried. That is not an oversight, that is by design.
People far too often ascribe personal characteristics to a corporation to the extent of viewing them as having one mind, one vision, one goal. That's not the case of course. They are made up of many people, who have different objectives. This is particularly true in the case of the massive conglomerate types like MS that doesn't have a controlling leader.
So what very well could have happened is that the development/project team on Kinect said "Let's leave this sucker open. We aren't going to spend any funds developing alternate uses, but let's not spend any time putting shit to prevent it either. Let people do whatever the hell they want with it." So Kinect gets developed with that in mind. However when it is launched and people look at it Assistant PR Flunky Third Class Number B was asked about hacking it, probably with the journalist using the term "hacking" and then fired back with Standard Lawyer BS Statement Regarding Hacking Form 5114CXX1 Subtype J which said "Graaaah! Hacking bad MS smash!" After a bit this makes the rounds, while Kinect is hacked, and internally the questions is asked as to the real intent. The director of the project says "It was supposed to be open!" and after clearing that with legal and corporate for release, they do so.
Notice the original statement was "a company spokesperson." In other words some low level guy who gets the calls when a news publication wants to know something, someone with no real knowledge or authority. This new statement is from Alex Kipman, a director at Microsoft who is directly involved with this, someone who knows what the hell is going on.
So that's probably what happened. Not changing their minds, just normal corporate confusion. The statement Cnet got was just a generic response from PR, that probably hadn't been well considered or prepared, just pulled from the "We defend our IP," bin. The second statement is their real position, from the project director.
Came here for the 1984 reference, left satisfied. Thanks, Timothy!
Why dont companies cut out the tongues of their executives, or at least force them to wear a muzzle. They have the mentality of high school students.
FTFA:
This is what Alex Kipman said:
The first thing to talk about is, Kinect was not actually hacked. Hacking would mean that someone got to our algorithms that sit inside of the Xbox and was able to actually use them, which hasn’t happened. Or, it means that you put a device between the sensor and the Xbox for means [sic] of cheating, which also has not happened. That’s what we call hacking, and that’s what we have put a ton of work and effort to make sure doesn’t actually occur.
What has happened is someone wrote an open-source driver for PCs that essentially opens the USB connection, which we didn’t protect, by design, and reads the inputs from the sensor.
Hacking means taking a (usually integrated circuit or code based) product that was designed for, built for, tested for, and meant for use A, and modifying it or its inputs or its outputs for use B. Cracking is bypassing a security system, by means of hacking, for the purpose of hacking or some other purpose.
By these definitions, the Kinect was hacked. If the internal Xbox algorithms had been found and used or if someone had augmented the Kinect to cheat in a game, then that would probably be bypassing security systems (I don't know the specific internals of the Xbox) and that would be cracking.
Kinect already has lag problems, adding encryption isn't going to help.
Plus any extra overhead on the console side isn't going to be great as developers are always trying to squeeze as much as they can out of the system.
Mod parent UP.
You really want to make good MS?
Then release drivers that allow multiple Kinects to be hooked up in conjunction with each other.
Allow us to use them together so we can start to create low end 3d environments.
To enable the next multilayer 3d rich environment communications cool.
Skype gerrin
Can you spell DMCA?
Breaking encryption that was put there for a purpose other than to control access to an original work of authorship does not violate the anti-circumvention provisions of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. Chamberlain v. Skylink; Lexmark v. Static Control Components.
Just guess which will be my next console
How about a home theater PC? Among the big three consoles, Xbox 360 is the most open with XNA and App Hub, to which Sony and Nintendo have no counterpart. But PCs are even more open than Xbox 360, and as flat HDTVs have displaced boxy CRT SDTVs, the barriers to putting a slim PC behind the TV have started to fall. All this indie stuff using the Kinect sensor will run on a home theater PC long before Microsoft adds Kinect support to XNA.
I think they realized that the opensource driver just opened up a new avenue of profit for them, now instead of xbox owners buying it just for games, which may or may not be that profitable (they lose money on the xbox as it stands) now they have geeks, hackers, and potential unauthorized PC programs that can make use of the hardware, and get even more sales than they would have if they had clamped down and said "NO, XBOX ONLY. WE WILL SUE"
xbox only, lawsuits = neutral or negative gain (lawyers are expensive)
leaving the product open the hacking = more buyers, who may not even be xbox owners, so they get money where they wouldnt have gotten it before, and hey, they might just buy an xbox now as well.
makes sense, about time they realized that all hardware doesnt have to be locked down.
also it should be noted, every time someone does something cool with the kinect, it's free marketing for them. Same with any new open developments, no cost to them, only profit.
the linux action show ran a story on it and where asked if microsoft would be mad over the driver. and they said probly not it will sell more of them and microsoft likes money.looks like they hit the nail on the head there. good for the potential of this device.
The initial response was for the punters who might not want to buy a Kinect because "O NOES ITS BEEN HACKD!!11!". Because for people like that, it means that evil hax0rs can do things like watching you make an arse out of yourself waving your arms around in front of your TV (naked or otherwise).
The subsequent response is for the tech-savvy (dare I say it) hackers who might want to add value to their product by coming up with cool new uses for it, and who in turn misinterpreted their initial response as "O NOES M$ WANTS TO STOP U MAKIN COOL OPEN SAUCE KINECT HAX!!11!".
There's a disconnect between tech-driven communication and sale-driven communication from Microsoft, certainly, but in this case they're not saying incompatible things at all.
If you're really so gung-ho for open, you may want to consider the console that uses standard USB connectors and hard drives.
You know, the PS3...
I'll probably be buying a Kinect but not a 360...
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I didn't expect it to be so accurate, but jesus it came out really cool. Playing Table Tennis on a 12 foot projected surface is surreal.
MS is probably being honest to say they left it open. It's an obvious PC interface, at least IMHO, and I'll bet it get released with the next iteration of the DirectX SDK. I can see a lot of dedicated environments for business where this makes complete sense as a mouse replacement. It's not a "wireless" anything, it's completely hands free, which sounds like a trivial difference but in reality changes the entire experience.
We make medical software, and right off the top of my head I could see a quick interface to let a doc work on you and use something like this to navigate medical histories (say, by voice with some limited hand waving for selection). Seriously, most folks are trying to do that kind of thing with tablets atm, but in an emergency room or surgery having your hands free is priceless (not to mention, no contamination from physical interfaces).
Imagination is the silver lining of Intelligence.
They have no problem with people using the Kinect in the way they are.
Microsoft DO want to stop people hacking the Kinect to gain an advantage in games (i.e. cheating) and they DO want to stop people hacking the Kinect in an attempt to create fake or knockoff products.
MS always left their products open
like ms windows, IIS, SQL Server.......
Has anyone got the idea of using kinect with Blender for motion capture animation? Might make the animation process easier. Make your own Avatar style 3D movie in a couple weeks perhaps.
Because it would really look bad if they put months of engineering effort into it and then some wise ass kid in Sweden published drivers for it while the printing presses were still warm. I guess all those threatening mouth words they made were from Microsoft Russia, who apparently are drunk on Vodka most of the time?
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
But Microsoft isn't taking kindly to the bounty offer. "Microsoft does not condone the modification of its products," a company spokesperson told CNET. "With Kinect, Microsoft built in numerous hardware and software safeguards designed to reduce the chances of product tampering. Microsoft will continue to make advances in these types of safeguards and work closely with law enforcement and product safety groups to keep Kinect tamper-resistant."
Read more: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13772_3-20021836-52.html#ixzz15sFk9V00 http://games.slashdot.org/story/10/11/05/176251/2000-Bounty-For-Open-Source-Xbox-Kinect-Drivers
Where has reason in the world gone? Have we abandoned it in favor of power and politics?
If you can't beat them get them to join you. Microsoft will find a way to make money off of this. Not least by selling a ton of Konnect units for PC's now.
Everybody knows 3 people with my name.
Since it's open, wouldn't it be easier to cheat games by sending preprogrammed moves to it?
If this is an internal flip flop (more likely this is the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing in a beast as big as Redmond), at least they flopped in the right direction. Okay, yeah, you've hacked it, you're doing cool stuff.... fine, keep doing cool stuff, maybe we'll even help. If this were Sony they'd already be pushing updates at you that would melt the peripheral into slag if possible.
Microsoft Gear head: Those wacky open source guys have hacked our kinect controller so it will work with linux
Microsoft PHB: Thats outrageous! We'll have them arrested
Microsoft Marketing: Doesnt that mean they will buy our Kinect controller at $120 each and we dont even have to support it.
Microsoft PHB: Yes it does, Im a genius!
Look at what comes out of the Kinect. Plain data, no encryption, authentication or anything.
Now if they merely designed it not to interfere or if they actually wanted the public to have a go at it... Decide for yourselves.
Anyway, I am desperately waiting for someone to
a) use two Kinects at the same time with the help of polarized filters
b) write a software package that maps 3D space. Cave mapping, anyone? TEN KINDS OF AWESOME!
And Sony will announce it left the architecture of the PS3 open on purpose too.