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Japanese Robot Picks Only the Ripest Strawberries

kkleiner writes "The Institute of Agricultural Machinery at Japan's National Agriculture and Food Research Organization, along with SI Seiko, has developed a robot that can select and harvest strawberries based on their color. Ripened berries are detected using the robot's stereoscopic cameras, and analyzed to measure how red they appear. When the fruit is ready to come off the vine, the robot quickly locates it in 3D space and cuts it free. From observation to collection, the harvesting process takes about 9 seconds per berry. Creators estimate that it will be able to cut down harvesting time by 40%."

202 comments

  1. One step... by TheKidWho · · Score: 3, Funny

    One step away from harvesting humans!

    These robots are the real zombies, they need brains to power their neural net.

  2. can strawberries ripen in transit? by ChipMonk · · Score: 2

    Because if they can, then we'd want the robots to pick them before they're ripe, so that they'll be ripe just as they show up on the display case in the store.

    1. Re:can strawberries ripen in transit? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No.

    2. Re:can strawberries ripen in transit? by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 1

      From my experience from my garden, no they don't. Might help to gas them with some ethene, which works as a ripening signal molecule in some plants. However... DO NOT WANT...

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    3. Re:can strawberries ripen in transit? by hedwards · · Score: 2

      Not that big a deal, all you do is mix different fruits together. Things like peaches release ethylene which will cause produce to ripen. There's nothing wrong with that. And honestly there's a bit too much paranoia when it comes to chemicals. The only concern over synthetic versions of natural chemicals is if there's a bit of byproduct left which might be dangerous.

    4. Re:can strawberries ripen in transit? by Hatta · · Score: 5, Informative

      It's not that ethylene is bad, it's that ripening off the vine sucks. You're stuck with the amount of flavor when picked, ethylene just softens the fruit. On the vine the fruit can keep adding flavor as it softens. Strawberries are really only good ripened on the vine and eaten within 24 hours of being picked. Anything else is a pale imitation.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    5. Re:can strawberries ripen in transit? by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 2

      Yeah, the fruit mixing thing works, true. I have no problems with chemicals per se - heck, I am a biochemist by trade. I just don't want tasteless, textureless industry strawberries resembling the atrocity the Netherlands used to unleash on the world under the label of "tomato". Thankfully that has improved a bit lately, though.

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    6. Re:can strawberries ripen in transit? by will_die · · Score: 1

      Strawberries and other soft berries will not ripen after they pick. they will start rotting and become soft after picked.

    7. Re:can strawberries ripen in transit? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes. If strawberries are not in season where you live, then they're picked green somewhere else, and gassed with ethylene in transit. That's why the texture, taste, and color are never quite right. It's much prefferable to get them ripe.

    8. Re:can strawberries ripen in transit? by TooMuchToDo · · Score: 1

      So than the real solution is to grow food in the locale where its in demand, and have robotics handle the picking and logistics. You're never going to get around time to market if you need to pick the fruit in California and ship it to New York.

    9. Re:can strawberries ripen in transit? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Great! This robot is going to put all of the Mexicans the Democrats are importing out of a job. Who's going to vote Democrat anymore after all the Mexicans lose their jobs?

    10. Re:can strawberries ripen in transit? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      leisure time is the goal. why should we have to work when robots can do the repetitive boring stuff? That frees us to think about harder problems. Niggers are way ahead of you puritan work ethic cockroach types!

    11. Re:can strawberries ripen in transit? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Contrary to popular belief, Strawberries do not continue to ripen after the've been picked. They are as ripe as they're going to get. For some other fruits this may be true, just not strawberries.

    12. Re:can strawberries ripen in transit? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh hell, now besides our video snobs, audio snobs and wine snobs, now we have FRUIT snobs. Damn.

  3. Lot of track? by AllWorkAndNoPlay · · Score: 1

    The video seems to show this moving on smooth straight metal tracks. I wonder how adapting it to travel on uneven dirt paths will affect it's ability to cut the intended strawberry? Either that or they run track up each row in their one square kilometer field.

    1. Re:Lot of track? by vxice · · Score: 1

      I would imagine it would be transported on a cart with wheels for moving on rough dirt. The robot would work on a small patch at a time.

      --
      every anarchist is a baffled dictator. Benito_Mussolini
    2. Re:Lot of track? by AJWM · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Locomotion and selection are two distinct problems. Presumably the selection/picking components could be added to a suitable chassis designed for navigation real fields (which could support a host of other picking and crop-tending apps).

      If not, then they still don't need a track for each row, just a track that can be moved from one row to another. Perhaps make the fields circular with a radial track, like some irrigation systems.

      --
      -- Alastair
    3. Re:Lot of track? by nospam007 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Having a dozen people lying on their stomach on each side of a tractor puller 'wings' isn't cheaper.

      http://www.slk.at/fileadmin/img/Fotobewerb/fw_Gurkenflieger_Norbert_Breuer_4100_Ottensheim.jpg

    4. Re:Lot of track? by vadim_t · · Score: 2

      I suppose that if this provides enough of an advantage, then it makes sense to rework the whole field so that it lies on a perfectly flat and straight grid.

      It's been done with warehouses (Kiva for instance), so why not in a field?

    5. Re:Lot of track? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      The video seems to show this moving on smooth straight metal tracks. I wonder how adapting it to travel on uneven dirt paths will affect it's ability to cut the intended strawberry? Either that or they run track up each row in their one square kilometer field.

      A lot of premium strawberry production is done hydroponically in greenhouses, especially in Japan. An almost ideal, controlled environment for robotic gardening.

    6. Re:Lot of track? by AllWorkAndNoPlay · · Score: 2

      If the selection/picking algorithms are designed with the assumption that the robot will be perfectly upright and square to the ground, it's going to get really confused when one wheel of the cart is sitting on a rock. Using sensors to provide data to instruct actuators is all well and good, but it needs to be calibrated to support real-world data. Moving around the field, on dirt, will provide rather different data than metal tracks. I don't think the two problems are necessarily distinct.

    7. Re:Lot of track? by WrongSizeGlass · · Score: 1

      I suppose that if this provides enough of an advantage, then it makes sense to rework the whole field so that it lies on a perfectly flat and straight grid.

      It's been done with warehouses (Kiva for instance), so why not in a field?

      I think the moisture and other elements in the fields will wreak havoc on this type of competition for human jobs.

    8. Re:Lot of track? by vadim_t · · Score: 1

      Why? Where's the big difference between this and a railroad? They need a bit of periodic maintenance, but they manage to survive the moisture and elements just fine.

    9. Re:Lot of track? by WrongSizeGlass · · Score: 1

      Fields of produce are watered daily and plants are mostly water. The railroad runs on tracks, these robots won't have that luxury. There is a big difference between the 'work' environments.

    10. Re:Lot of track? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is if they are $2/day illegals

    11. Re:Lot of track? by vadim_t · · Score: 1

      So? Ever checked what's the weather like in Russia, for instance? Plenty rain and snow, yet the railroads do just fine. Good quality steel, construction and maintenance go a long way.

      And why are you so sure they "won't have that luxury"? Like I said, if it makes economic sense, it will be done. The technical possibility is there.

    12. Re:Lot of track? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On the contrary, the robot doesn't need to know anything about its orientation relative to the ground in order to find and pick strawberries. Why would that information be important? The robot's end effector is attached to three prismatic joints. All it has to do is find the position of the strawberry relative to the robot's base, and then move the end effector to that position. It is a classic manipulation problem. The only reason those tracks are there is to allow the robot to drive in a straight line with minimal error. It could just as easily be mounted on a set of wheels, with a separate navigation algorithm driving it along.

    13. Re:Lot of track? by AJWM · · Score: 1

      That's one whale of a big "if". Why would anyone be so stupid as to design the algorithms that way, rather than, for example, take the position/orientation as parameters? For that matter, why worry about the ground at all when you're looking at the strawberries? Plants like strawberries don't grow perfectly upright and square to the ground either.

      --
      -- Alastair
    14. Re:Lot of track? by AllWorkAndNoPlay · · Score: 1

      That's one whale of a big "if". Why would anyone be so stupid as to design the algorithms that way, rather than, for example, take the position/orientation as parameters?

      Exactly my point. The tracking offers an unrealistic environment for testing and development.

      For that matter, why worry about the ground at all when you're looking at the strawberries?

      If the camera is looking "straight ahead" but is actually at a 30% tilt because the ground is unlevel, then the camera is looking up or down. The cutting arm needs to be able to get to the strawberry. If it is moving towards the location the camera *thinks* it is seeing, it will go to the wrong spot.

    15. Re:Lot of track? by dryeo · · Score: 1

      Railroads have the luxury of having a layer of ballast, usually crushed rock, to lay the track on. Strawberries like to grow in dirt that can easily turn into mud.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    16. Re:Lot of track? by dryeo · · Score: 1

      Looks to me like they're picking cukes, much different then strawberries which I have picked.
      Also at 9 seconds a berry this would be so uneconomical compared to a fast human picker who probably averages 1/2 a second per berry with close to 100% of ripe berries being picked even if hiding under a leave.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    17. Re:Lot of track? by stdarg · · Score: 1

      You're probably right about the speed, but I wonder about the dollars per berry as opposed to berries per second. Electricity is pretty cheap, I wonder how expensive the robots are and how long they last.

    18. Re:Lot of track? by TheLink · · Score: 1

      Yeah 9 seconds per berry is very slow - at that rate the Mexicans will still have their berry picking jobs in the USA for years to come.

      Who picks the berries in Japan? The Brazilians?

      --
    19. Re:Lot of track? by AJWM · · Score: 2

      I just hope you're not involved with writing any software that I use.

      Do you have a problem reaching for and grasping something when you're laying down vs standing up? The bot isn't depending on gravity for anything, it's movements are relative to the camera. Only an idiot would give the arm and the camera separate coordinate systems, and only a bigger idiot would do that and not take the coordinate transforms into account. Although I suppose there are a lot of those around, given the state of software these days.

      --
      -- Alastair
    20. Re:Lot of track? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Another problem with the video is that it only shows the easiest case for the robot to handle. I would like to see it in real world cases where the berries are hidden behind branches or other berries. They do not show the robot handling such complex but common real world problems. Can it move aside branches to reach fruit? I call BS on this. This is not a practical tool. But rather a very simple application of computer vision and robot technology that can work only in limited conditions. The robot is literally picking only the low hanging fruit in the video.

  4. And the most fragrant ... by l0ungeb0y · · Score: 0

    used panties

    1. Re:And the most fragrant ... by Shikaku · · Score: 1, Insightful

      They know they're ripe because they turn red at the money spot.

  5. Goodbye Mexicans! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Goodbye Mexicans!

    1. Re:Goodbye Mexicans! by couchslug · · Score: 3, Interesting

      While "Goodbye Mexicans" is a bit flamey, automating the jobs locals will never willingly do has always been a logical goal.

      When we reduce manual labor, remove some jobs that draw poor people to the US, increase profits and make our farms more competitive we win.

      We don't scrap massive combine harvesters in favor of horse-drawn equipment because they enormously increase productivity. Harvesting is dull, dirty, and sometime dangerous, ideal for robots.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    2. Re:Goodbye Mexicans! by WrongSizeGlass · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And yet the design and manufacturing of these robots will take place in Japan so we won't see many local jobs from this except for some repair jobs.

    3. Re:Goodbye Mexicans! by zach_the_lizard · · Score: 1

      And the truck drivers to get those parts, the ship captains and crew to get them across the ocean, the people to train the technicians, salesmen, and maybe even more people to harvest the raw materials required for the robots. This is ignoring the potential for more farms or for those who were farmers to create their own other line of work.

      --
      SSC
    4. Re:Goodbye Mexicans! by Mysteray · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yeah and don't forget the advertising agencies who advertise and the lawyers who sue and the government inspectors to inspect and the ....

      Dude, the only person producing new wealth in your scenario is the the farmer and look at all the overhead you're expecting him to bear.

    5. Re:Goodbye Mexicans! by couchslug · · Score: 0

      "Dude, the only person producing new wealth in your scenario is the the farmer and look at all the overhead you're expecting him to bear."

      The CUSTOMERS are bearing the load when they pay for the product. They pay for the whole supply chain and its support systems.

      They get a more competitive marketplace (USians don't spend much of their income for food) which has helped keep food very affordable.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    6. Re:Goodbye Mexicans! by couchslug · · Score: 1

      We don't, in this application, NEED to generate local jobs.

      The goal is streamlined production, _destruction_ of jobs that draw illegals into the job market, more revenue for the farmer, and more competition in the marketplace.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    7. Re:Goodbye Mexicans! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > the jobs locals will never willingly do

      You might be surprised to find that locals will willingly do any job, if it pays appropriately. What is appropriate? Well, we could look at equivalently physically demanding labor that *isn't* wage depressed from decades of a large illegal labor force. Last time I looked up the statistics, I saw that the other labor categories were up around $10-$12/hour, but farm work was like $8/hour (and that's what the LEGAL workers are paid). "[Jobs Americans won't do" is an excuse made up by those who want to keep paying dirt and pocketing the difference.]

      Automated harvesters break the wage-depressing feedback loop. It won't happen out of good feelings for Americans, and it won't improve employment or wages. They'll do it because it eliminates the risk of the feds swooping in during harvest and deporting the labor, leaving the company with fines and the crop ripening/rotting in the fields.

    8. Re:Goodbye Mexicans! by TooMuchToDo · · Score: 1

      So? The farmer will get to keep his profits every year from harvesting, money that would otherwise be sent outside of the country by non-local farm labor.

    9. Re:Goodbye Mexicans! by Mysteray · · Score: 1

      The customers are not creating wealth. Sure, they pay the costs but that's a different equation than the one I was talking about. They are consuming, not producing.

      Even if you include the consumers, the farmer is the only one of the long list of players who is producing wealth in the US in the poster's scenario.

      100 years ago:
      Farmer grows strawberries -> farmer markets strawberries. Half the population does farming.

      Proposed scenario:
      Farmer grows strawberries -> robot picks strawberries, robot breaks and needs spare parts -> "truck drivers to get those parts, the ship captains and crew to get them across the ocean, the people to train the technicians, salesmen, and maybe even more people to harvest the raw materials required for the robots", all compete for a slice of what, as you point out, the consumer pays for the strawberries.

    10. Re:Goodbye Mexicans! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't understand - won't the farmer choose whichever has the lower overhead (humans or robots)? I don't see how the robots generate additional overhead for the farmer. Also, just because this particular robot was designed in Japan doesn't mean that the U.S. won't develop competing products.

    11. Re:Goodbye Mexicans! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When we reduce manual labor, remove some jobs that draw poor people to the US, increase profits and make our farms more competitive we win.

      I would calm down if I were you. Technology is far from being able to economically replace manual labor for robots in most fields. Even in Japan itself, most of the simple labor on assembly lines is still done by manual labor. Even when it would be technologically trivial to replace many of them with simple robots. Most of the electronics you own were made almost entirely by human hands.

      The reason is simple. It's still just not economically viable replace men with robots in many cases. It's still cheaper to hire cheap humans than it is to maintain machines.

      This article makes it clear that the economically viability of the strawberry picking robot is still very questionable. It's a fun nice tech advancement. But still not enough.

    12. Re:Goodbye Mexicans! by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      Japan has a worse problem than the US - an aging, rather rich population, that is not willing to do boring jobs like picking fruit. In many countries the harvest of crops is a big problem: it needs a lot of temporary, low-paid, hard-working labour.

      That means first of all you need sufficient unemployment to have people available in the first place. OK the US has them now, but that's not the point here. Many of those unemployed are far from the farms, or don't want to work there in the first place. Many countries now import labour for the harvest, like Thai people traveling to Sweden late summer for the berries harvest. Or indeed Mexicans in the US, and Poles to the western EU (Netherlands, Germany at least).

      Japan is quite closed a society, import of labour is not so easy. Taiwan is another point in case: they have a lot of agriculture but also a problem finding the labourers to harvest the crops. So just for their farms to survive they need all the help they can get - and mechanical hands can be a very useful help indeed.

      These robots may be a great development. Not just for delicacies like strawberries, but also for other fruits, like apples, oranges, plums, whatever.

      I suppose strawberries are a nice starting point because they grow on small plants, are easy to recognise when ripe (bright colour - apples are less distinct), and are a high-margin product so there is money available for this kind of research.

    13. Re:Goodbye Mexicans! by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      I know it's a hot item in the US now, but in the long run globalisation is good for all, it makes everyone richer. Look at the US for example: the richest country in the world, and largely thanks to the enormous international trade in goods and services.

      In the short term these developments may cost jobs - in the long term they tend to gain jobs and improve the economy. After all with mechanisation it's the low-end jobs (where little money is made) that are cut, creating more higher-end jobs (where more money is made). Or to say it in a different way: mechanisation frees up people that were doing low-end, low value-added activities before.

    14. Re:Goodbye Mexicans! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ever wonder why farmers are always broke? The average farm worker can produce enough food to support about 100 people. 200 years ago, the same farm worker could support 4 people.

    15. Re:Goodbye Mexicans! by Mysteray · · Score: 1

      Probably the farmer would choose. Unless someone makes the right campaign contributions and "stimulus money" and tax breaks are allocated to "modernization".

      But the discussion was about the robot scenario, so it was taken for granted.

    16. Re:Goodbye Mexicans! by drsquare · · Score: 1

      When we reduce manual labor, remove some jobs that draw poor people to the US, increase profits and make our farms more competitive we win.

      What exactly counts as 'we'? I'm not sure who this benefits other than the farm owners. It's not like the economy is overloaded with employment, everyone having to work two jobs just to fulfil all the vacancies.

    17. Re:Goodbye Mexicans! by Oriumpor · · Score: 2

      It's a painful thing for an overly Nationalistic American to do, but if you look at the history of the Pajaro valley you would see that prior to WWII the Japanese businesses funded the Berry Farming that created such a huge demand for Strawberries. My family's ranch was funded primarily by Japanese investors before FDR stole their property and imprisoned their families.

    18. Re:Goodbye Mexicans! by TheLink · · Score: 1

      Farmer grows strawberries -> robot picks strawberries, robot breaks and needs spare parts -> "truck drivers to get those parts, the ship captains and crew to get them across the ocean,

      You left out the part where the fertilizers, robots, spare parts, trucks, ships, planes, packaging are in effect mostly made of fossil fuels and/or require fossil fuels to operate.

      The majority of the inputs are fossil fuels. Not the "growing strawberries".

      Basically humans in "developed countries" eat fossil fuels.

      An "industrial nation" farmer doesn't contribute as much to the strawberries in your bowl as someone working in an oil rig.

      We are scarily dependent on fossil fuels. The oil must flow, or family atomics will be used :).

      --
    19. Re:Goodbye Mexicans! by Ihmhi · · Score: 1

      automating the jobs locals will never willingly do has always been a logical goal.

      Please, enough of this shit.

      I would gladly do any of the jobs "the locals wouldn't do" like general labor, janitorial services, harvesting in fields, etc. because I am unemployed right now. When you can't find work in the field you want, you generally take anything you can.

      I'm not going all "They took our jerbs" here, but it can really be a major pain in the ass when I can't get hired for general labor at a construction company because I don't speak Spanish (despite my 12+ years (~2 years if I had worked it full time every weekday) of construction experience).

    20. Re:Goodbye Mexicans! by Pikoro · · Score: 1

      This. I live in Japan. After working IT for around 20 years, I got "downsized". Took me 3 months of resume submission and interviewing 3 times a week to finally land a job. Not in the IT field of course. I'm working for a construction company now where my co-workers know less about computers than my wife (who doesn't know how to send email). Now It's manual labor in a field I've never worked in and I'm happy about it. Why? Making anything is better than making nothing.

      For those that say they cannot find a job? Bullshit. Man up and take some menial labor job that you hate and use your off time to look for a "better" job. Talk about motivation, how about getting out of a job you hate?

      Although, having 2 kids in college and 3 in elementary school is a pretty big motivator too...

      --
      "Freedom in the USA is not the ability to do what you want. It is the ability to stop others from doing what THEY want"
    21. Re:Goodbye Mexicans! by Ihmhi · · Score: 1

      Good job then, man. I live in an area in the United States that has loads of immigrants (mainly Spanish and Portuguese speakers), so I've yet to get hired because of the lack of an ability to speak a foreign language - even for something simple like general labor.

      I sort of do freelance computer work, but years of experience with the area has shown to me that it is impractical (if not near impossible) to make a living solely doing that. (I often do such a good job at repairs that nothing breaks down for a return call. I have a customer retention rate of under 33%, even though I can count the number dissatisfied customers I've ever had on half of one hand.)

      As it stands I keep looking for work 'round here. Moving is impractical, and my closest "best" guarantee for work is to do a 1 hour (and change) commute to NYC and end up paying both NJ and NY state income taxes.

      Thankfully my family can survive during my current unemployment, but things are rather uncomfortable to say the least and we've had to do with out a few conveniences.

      Any advice for someone who was in your position? I imagine since you're working in Japan that you speak the language, so that's an advantage you'd have over me.

      Christ, I'm like a foreigner in my own home country. :(

    22. Re:Goodbye Mexicans! by Pikoro · · Score: 1

      Only advice I can offer is to spread spectrum submit your resume. I applied for everything from NASA down to kitchen helper.

      Some work is better than no work. I was unemployed for 3 months and it really sucked, but things tend to work out.

      Hell, check out some of those remote data entry jobs. They send you some scanned forms and you enter them into a database for them. Shit work but hey, it pays (sometimes rather well) and gives you some income in the mean time.

      --
      "Freedom in the USA is not the ability to do what you want. It is the ability to stop others from doing what THEY want"
  6. It is over 97% percent accurate! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    In under 3% of cases the robot shoots the strawberry with a rocket launcher.

    1. Re:It is over 97% percent accurate! by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      But only the ripe ones!

      Well, or so we think, it's kinda hard to tell...

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:It is over 97% percent accurate! by box2 · · Score: 1

      In under 3% of cases the robot shoots the strawberry with a rocket launcher.

      Perhaps, but only because they wouldn't assume the party escort submission position.

  7. How to change economics to fit abundance... by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 3, Informative

    http://knol.google.com/k/paul-d-fernhout/beyond-a-jobless-recovery
    "This article explores the issue of a "Jobless Recovery" mainly from a heterodox economic perspective. It emphasizes the implications of ideas by Marshall Brain and others that improvements in robotics, automation, design, and voluntary social networks are fundamentally changing the structure of the economic landscape. It outlines towards the end four major alternatives to mainstream economic practice (a basic income, a gift economy, stronger local subsistence economies, and resource-based planning). These alternatives could be used in combination to address what, even as far back as 1964, has been described as a breaking "income-through-jobs link". This link between jobs and income is breaking because of the declining value of most paid human labor relative to capital investments in automation and better design. Or, as is now the case, the value of paid human labor like at some newspapers or universities is also declining relative to the output of voluntary social networks such as for digital content production (like represented by this document). It is suggested that we will need to fundamentally reevaluate our economic theories and practices to adjust to these new realities emerging from exponential trends in technology and society."

    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
    1. Re:How to change economics to fit abundance... by Onymous+Coward · · Score: 2

      Very interesting. Thanks for your work on this. I'll read it.

      Meanwhile, for everyone else, here's a sci-fi primer on the idea of Burger-G and how you can expect to lose your job:

      Manna

    2. Re:How to change economics to fit abundance... by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

      You're welcome.

      Manna and other stuff by Marshall Brain was part of the inspiration for it.

      --
      A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  8. Rule 34 by PPH · · Score: 0

    In the USA, we call them cherries.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
    1. Re:Rule 34 by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      I think there's a tasteless joke in there, about the robot being Japanese and the cherry being ripe and that this somehow doesn't work out, but I just can't figure out a good punchline.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:Rule 34 by PPH · · Score: 1

      Sorry. No bad car analogies came to mind.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    3. Re:Rule 34 by Sulphur · · Score: 1

      This includes a malfunctioning agricultural robot.

      http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088024/

    4. Re:Rule 34 by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 1

      Tom Selleck? Gene Simmons? Really?

    5. Re:Rule 34 by angiasaa · · Score: 1

      You get strawberry AND cherry there. And most americans I know, know the difference between the two since kindergarten.

      --
      Geekism is your _only_ God!
    6. Re:Rule 34 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Woosh. The subject line, "Rule 34", refers to the internet rule that there must be porn of anything that exist. The cherry, which the OP suggest are called strawberries in Japan to make the joke work, refer to slang for a female hymen. That is an organ that must be broken prior to a woman's first sexual intercourse. Thus the joke is saying that the robots , which given Japan's .... prior history with sexual devices and portrayal in anime, are actually sex robots.
      Funny you should mention kindergarteners, as Japan also has a thriving lolicon industry, perhaps there is a robotic-sex joke in that as well!

  9. Reducing illegal immigration? by AJWM · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Get the price of such robots down enough and there'll be little incentive to pay sub-par wages to migrant field workers. (Regardless of immigration status, but illegals are more exploitable.)

    Conversely it could be because we've long had a source of cheap field labor that the US agricultural machinery business hasn't made such advances in robotics. Pity, really -- many of the issues a robotic strawberry picker has to deal with are common to the activity of a whole range of other robots. Build a general purpose agricultural field worker robot and have alternate software loads (and perhaps interchangeable picker mechanisms) for blueberries, tomatoes, whatever.

    (Such picker robots, with appropriate sensors, could also be adapted to tasks like minefield clearing. Although that might lead to a scenario like that in the TV adaptation of Heinlein's "Jerry Was a Man".)

    --
    -- Alastair
    1. Re:Reducing illegal immigration? by ColdWetDog · · Score: 2

      Unless you change the socioeconomic fabric of most of the 'third world' or somehow manage to pull off a full scale device copier ala Neal Stephenson or Star Trek, the economics are always going to strongly favor the cheap, disposable, highly configurable human.

      To paraphrase Heinlein - Humans can make more humans, that's a trick that robots haven't figured out yet.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    2. Re:Reducing illegal immigration? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't worry, they'll still need low-cost human labor to fix the machines and hose down the parts.

      Hmm, this can't be a good trend for h. sapiens.

    3. Re:Reducing illegal immigration? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Picking grapes by machine would be very interesting. If you drive around the south of France, you see fields of grapes for miles, all of which need to be harvested by hand to make wine. There's often quite a short period between the grapes being read to harvest and being overripe for wine making, and harvesting them at exactly the right point can make a big difference to the quality of the final product. If you could make robots that would travel up and down the fields quickly, revisiting each vine each day over a week or so and picking the grapes at exactly the right time (rather than, as humans do, when the majority are at the right level of ripeness), then I can imagine that you'd have some customers who would be very happy to pay a premium for the machine.

      I doubt the situation is the same for strawberries. They aren't exactly luxury goods and so cost is the most important factor.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    4. Re:Reducing illegal immigration? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You'll use them for what 3-5 years after which they begin to break down, and you'll need replacements and people to repair and maintain them. And in that time, you'll have to order custom parts, because less than a year after production they'll be obsolete. Look at cars today, the older they are, the harder and more expensive they are to repair.

      It's a nice concept, but that's all it will remain for the next fifty years.

    5. Re:Reducing illegal immigration? by Troggie87 · · Score: 1

      Growing up on a farm (and still occasionally going back to work on one) I can assure there are a lot of reasons we don't have robots in agriculture. Immigrants aren't the half of it.

      For one, large chunks of the United States just aren't suited to using robots or GPS technology. Tremendous heat, terrible cold, thick dust, mud... creating a robot that can tolerate all of these conditions is a huge undertaking, and thats before you try and program it. You are talking military grade hardware, which isn't cheap. Not to mention no one in their right mind will create something fully autonomous, as in today's legal climate any error that results in, say, a child being run over would destroy either the farmer or the manufacturer (likely both). So you need a person right there to monitor... and in most cases that negates the whole point.

      In some ideal locations farmers are experimenting with GPS to increase planting accuracy and yields, but in many places it simply doesn't work. A big farm in my area tried it, and every time the tractor hit a waterway (or if it was too cloudy) the GPS functionality would just crap out. From a cost to performance perspective, very few people are in a position to pay a lot of money for negligible gain (the interest on the loan likely offsets the profit), and so there isn't much market.

      Now in the case of a strawberry farm... maybe. If they can keep the weight down I imagine it will work (the machine is far smaller, and the operating environment more consistent), and probably for a lot of fruit as well. I still think there are a lot of legal issues that will be wrestled with before anyone risks a machine mis-identifying a kid's mitten for a fruit. But honestly, don't expect to see robotic agriculture on any scale untill we at least figure out robotic cars. If you can't make a robotic car that can navigate straight lines, flat surfaces, and evaluate external inputs (pedestrians, stoplights, etc.) with 99.9999999% accuracy, then I seriously doubt you can make a "tractor" that deals with the ridiculous variables involved in everyday farming. One step at a time...

    6. Re:Reducing illegal immigration? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Checkout the movie "Runaway". There's a scene where a small pest harvesting robot goes haywire. Some labor intensive crops could definitely be handled better by robots if the cost can be reduced. I'm surprised the Japanese one keys strictly off color. With a lot of fruits the better indicator would be sniffing certain chemicals. It could be a major boon to the wine industry if only grapes that had peaked in sugar content were harvested. The potential is massive but the cost probably have to be reduced drastically first. Japan, home of the $200 melons, can better handle the costs for expensive fruits. Also the device appears to be designed for factory greenhouses and not roaming the fields. There have been massive leaps forward in the last ten years but I'd say we are still 20+ years away from seeing cheap roaming harvesters. You may see some in 10 years but they won't be widely available for decades.

    7. Re:Reducing illegal immigration? by Puls4r · · Score: 2

      Really? That's interesting. I must have missed the pictures where Americans grow their strawberrys on shelves like that, in climate controlled automatically ferilized and watered greenhouses, etc etc etc. I think, perhaps, we might do well to understand what is driving them to that rather expensive farming method: lack of space. That forces them into a tiered shelving system indoor that is already significantly automated and is ideal for a delicate robot vision / automation system that could move along rails. Then we can compare that to our system of doing it in nice, dirty fields with uneven ground, where the strawberries are not hanging from pretty shelves but must be located under and behind foilage and picked. I applaud your optimism, but this is really not much of an innovation considering we've been using vision systems for the same sort of things in mass production for the last 20 years. We're not to the point of flying cars just yet.

    8. Re:Reducing illegal immigration? by MadShark · · Score: 1

      Farmers only using GPS assisted planting in ideal locations? I disagree. They are used all over the place, with great success. John Deere sells tons of these units for exactly this purpose every year. Other manufacturers have similar products. Farmers wouldn't spend tens of thousands of dollars on these setups if they didn't work. Also, cloud cover should not have a significant effect on GPS signal strength. The clouds are essentially transparent to the frequencies it uses.

    9. Re:Reducing illegal immigration? by timeOday · · Score: 1

      If that were true, we would still be using armies of laborers instead of tractors. Automation has already displaced the vast majority of labor in agriculture. In 1850 farmers were 64% of the US labor force; now they're just a couple percent, even though the US is still a net exporter of food. Why would that process stop now?

    10. Re:Reducing illegal immigration? by Mspangler · · Score: 2

      Also having grown up on a farm, I'm more optimistic than you.

      Robots to work in the cold is not a problem because there are no berries to pick, or anything else to harvest at 20 below zero. Too much heat for people is little trouble for electronics. Almost any chip will take 120 F. The rest is just fans. If we can cool a Pentium 4, we can keep the harvester circuits cool enough.

      You do have a point with human supervision required for some cases, but again you can air condition a cab (or a supervisor's trailer) easily. It's a lot easier to be in a tractor with an enclosed cab than sitting on the "M" on a hot July day covered in the chaff from the oats combine. (We had a tow-behind model.)

      GPS on a berry farm seems like overkill. Install a two or three local RF beacons. Triangulate off of them.

      Now, how much armor plate does it take to get it to survive the blackberry patch?

      And how long until it can do cucumbers? Those were the bane of my childhood, as picking them was the only solution to my cash shortage.

      And how long until it can distinguish weeds from crops?

    11. Re:Reducing illegal immigration? by Troggie87 · · Score: 2

      GPS units are primarily used in Kansas, and other extremely flat areas. There are superfarms syncing them together to allow one driver to control multiple machines as well. Though that is the stereotype of agriculture, there are many, many places that aren't flat and barren (and where the farms aren't big enough to justify the expense). In those areas the technology isn't catching on nearly as well, because of the issues I mentioned. And I don't know about you, but my car GPS loses strengh on cloudy days (and I know from firsthand accounts tractor GPSs do as well). In some areas the loss isn't nearly as significant, but for whatever reason rural areas struggle with GPS reception in general. I don't know much about how the GPS network works, so I can't comment on why that would be.

    12. Re:Reducing illegal immigration? by Captain+Hook · · Score: 1

      Strawberries are the low hanging fruit, if you'll excuse the pun :)

      The robot has to have the video cameras anyway in order to be able to pick the fruit, so you might as well use the same hard to both identify the fruit to be picked and to accurately position the picker arm. One less sensor to build, calibrate and integrate with the rest of the system.

      --
      These comments are my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the other voices in my head.
    13. Re:Reducing illegal immigration? by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      If you could make robots that would travel up and down the fields quickly, revisiting each vine each day over a week or so and picking the grapes at exactly the right time (rather than, as humans do, when the majority are at the right level of ripeness), then I can imagine that you'd have some customers who would be very happy to pay a premium for the machine.

      You would bet right. Mechanical harvesting of grapes has been around for a while. Almonds, too.

      --
      Qxe4
    14. Re:Reducing illegal immigration? by espiesp · · Score: 1

      Look at cars today, the older they are, the harder and more expensive they are to repair.

      Citation Needed.

      It's really nearly the opposite. Availability of automotive parts is rarely an issue except in cases of extremely rare or extremely old (and rare by virtue of age). However, the complexity of modern automobiles makes repairs time consuming and thus expensive. New cars also require high investment in specialty tools to keep up with the changes.

    15. Re:Reducing illegal immigration? by DadLeopard · · Score: 1

      Well the Vineyards in California seem to be doing quite well with mechanical grape harvesters! http://www.freshplaza.com/news_detail.asp?id=51233 Just do a search on Google and you will find many more articles like this one!

    16. Re:Reducing illegal immigration? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      thats just silly. a bunch of DGPS units stuck on poles will do the job just as well and dont get blocked by clouds etc.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_GPS
      There are a ton of ones specifically designed for agriculture.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Claas_Baseline_HD.jpg
      just drop em in your field and away you go.

    17. Re:Reducing illegal immigration? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As the product of American (and Californian) agriculture and the berry farms I must dispute some of this. You are assuming that the industry hasn't gained from robotics, this is patently false. Field tilling is done 100% automated, most combines still require a driver but they are essentially on auto pilot for the entire area. USGS surveys + GPS on a slow moving barge is more than accurate enough to maintain the pace that a highly skilled combine driver can, without risking t-boning cars on frontage roads.

      As this goes, the drivers of such machines are much more specialized, and cost more to get a "good one" but it pays off in spades since it takes only one good course plotter to line the rows for many years.

      Picking bots is kinda the final piece, think of it as the linux kernel to the gnu system ;) The other pieces are there, and I can pretty much guarantee if this works in test driscols will try it.

    18. Re:Reducing illegal immigration? by GrumblyStuff · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but we're fucked if they figure out how to make more robots....

    19. Re:Reducing illegal immigration? by JanneM · · Score: 2

      I think, perhaps, we might do well to understand what is driving them to that rather expensive farming method: lack of space.

      Nope. There's plenty of farmland around in Japan; a fair amount of high-quality farmland lies fallow, in fact, from a lack of interest in using it. The reasons for the interest in factory farms (the indoor farming you've seen) and robotics are somewhat different. It's potentially much more effective and with higher-quality yield than open-field farming, where each plant gets the optimal amount of light and nutrients, no pests and no pesticides, and the same results no matter what the season or weather. And you can have small-scale farms that are still efficient, so a large restaurant could actually grow some of their own produce to the exact standards they want, all year round.

      It would take fewer people to work such a farm too, and even more so with robots. The major reason for fallow land in Japan is the lack of people willing to be farmers in a distant rural area - the average age is already above retirement age - so this would be a way both to reduce the number of people needed, and move the industry to where people want to live and work.

      --
      Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
    20. Re:Reducing illegal immigration? by couchslug · · Score: 1

      "Unless you change the socioeconomic fabric of most of the 'third world' or somehow manage to pull off a full scale device copier ala Neal Stephenson or Star Trek, the economics are always going to strongly favor the cheap, disposable, highly configurable human."

      In skilled trades, sometimes, but you typed that post using a computer that wouldn't be possible with pure manual labor.

      In repetitive shitwork, not so much.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    21. Re:Reducing illegal immigration? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Get the price of such robots down enough and there'll be little incentive to pay sub-par wages to migrant field workers. (Regardless of immigration status, but illegals are more exploitable.)

      Conversely it could be because we've long had a source of cheap field labor that the US agricultural machinery business hasn't made such advances in robotics. Pity, really -- many of the issues a robotic strawberry picker has to deal with are common to the activity of a whole range of other robots. Build a general purpose agricultural field worker robot and have alternate software loads (and perhaps interchangeable picker mechanisms) for blueberries, tomatoes, whatever.

      (Such picker robots, with appropriate sensors, could also be adapted to tasks like minefield clearing. Although that might lead to a scenario like that in the TV adaptation of Heinlein's "Jerry Was a Man".)

      Apparently you haven't heard of the Cotton Gin.

    22. Re:Reducing illegal immigration? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Damn straight. I do industrial automation for a living, and my reaction was "There's a half a million bucks rolling around". You can hire and train an awful lot of grunt workers for $500,000.

      AC

    23. Re:Reducing illegal immigration? by drolli · · Score: 2

      Rural areas have bad GPS reception?

      No. I know how GPS works (physicist with rf&signal processing experience), i see no mechanism for this but false rumors. Furthermore my personal experience tells me that the worst thing for GPS are cities. It takes (i have a quite old unit) 2-5 Minutes to get a fix in Tokyo, but only 20 Seconds if i am in Hakone, even in a mountain area (which are the second worst thing). In the city its actually so bad, i always use "my location" from google map, which does not use GPS. I imagine its pretty bad if you are on the valley of the Grand Canyon or not good if you are at the bottom of any deep valley, but being in a rural environment should make it better. And yes, rain/clouds will influence the signal strength, but normally this does not make GPS impossible at all.

      And that agrees with my idea on how GPS works, and with the manual of the device.

    24. Re:Reducing illegal immigration? by couchslug · · Score: 1

      "Apparently you haven't heard of the Cotton Gin."

      The cotton gin wasn't a harvester. It performed efficient processing of manually harvested cotton.

      THIS is what modern cotton harvesters look like:

      http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=cotton+harvester&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=aDD8TIf4AYiq8AaH77mTCw&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CCQQsAQwAA&biw=1280&bih=627

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    25. Re:Reducing illegal immigration? by RealGrouchy · · Score: 1

      the average age is already above retirement age

      Citation please? The CIA world factbook says the median age is around 45, and only a quarter of the population is at or above the retirement age of 65. I can't find any references for the average age.

      - RG>

      --
      Hey pal, this isn't a pleasantforest, so don't waste my time with pleasantries!
    26. Re:Reducing illegal immigration? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      then I can imagine that you'd have some customers who would be very happy to pay a premium for the machine

      That's an excellent point. It's also the case that grape vines are picked all at once based on median ripeness of the grapes and that there's a great deal of loss of grapes and cost involved when making the measurements. If a robot could identify the correct individual berries, not only would it save time and money, but it would save valuable grape stocks and reduce the risk of losing an entire batch due to mistimed picking.

      Finally the grapes would make a far better wine which would stand out as premium quality .. which people would definitely be willing to pay for. It's actually a brilliant and most likely very cost effective idea. The real problem is probably that the colour of the grape mightn't be telling enough to identify it's suitability for picking as part of a wine.

    27. Re:Reducing illegal immigration? by JanneM · · Score: 1

      Yomiuri Shinbun just ran a series of articles looking at the current state of agriculture, using official figures as a base. Here is one relevant piece in English (warning: articles disappear offline after a few days): http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/business/T101130005037.htm

      Here's the relevant part:

      The population depending on agriculture as their main revenue source has declined to about 2.6 million in 2010, one-third of the figure recorded 30 years ago, according to a census of the farming and forestry industries.

      The statistics also show the farming population's average age rose to nearly 66 this year, with 1.6 million--more than 60 percent of the total agricultural population--aged 65 or older. A government official anticipates 100,000 people will quit farming annually in the years to come.

      You may get different statistics if you count farmland owners rather than farmers. A lot of the uncultivated land is plots that have been inherited by people who live and work in the city. They live too far away to farm the land on one hand, and they don't want to sell the family land on the other, so it ends up sitting unused.

      --
      Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
    28. Re:Reducing illegal immigration? by RealGrouchy · · Score: 1

      Thanks, it was unclear from the GP post that the reference was to the farming population as opposed to the general population.

      - RG>

      --
      Hey pal, this isn't a pleasantforest, so don't waste my time with pleasantries!
    29. Re:Reducing illegal immigration? by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      Depends on your locality, but in Hong Kong strawberries are luxury goods. Only available in winter (then it's cold enough for them to grow), and at really high prices due to limited space to grow them, and requirement of import from far away.

      To save cost, some local farms (yes there are farms in Hong Kong) organise "pick your own" days, where the customer can come to the farm and pick the strawberries they want to buy themselves.

    30. Re:Reducing illegal immigration? by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      GPS on a berry farm seems like overkill. Install a two or three local RF beacons. Triangulate off of them.

      GPS is probably cheaper and more reliable. Saves you on installing those beacons, and saves you the required calibration. GPS receivers are dirt cheap these days and very accurate, and farms being out in the open tend to have excellent reception.

    31. Re:Reducing illegal immigration? by JanneM · · Score: 1

      Well, the passage is an aside set in the middle of a sentence about farmers. Looks pretty clear to me, but since it's not clear to others I will try to be a bit more mindful about such things in the future. It kind of sucks when your argument misses the point because your text ends up hard to understand.

      --
      Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
    32. Re:Reducing illegal immigration? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The alternative is rather than developing AI to pick the crops, just make usable "remote hands." Then you can import your migrant labor without them actually immigrating, and move them from field to field in a split second. Manwhile you use the giant horde of recordings of human-guided telemetry to train AI.

      (Tsk tsk though -- suggesting technology transfer FROM the private sector TO the military? Everyone knows the military/space technology has to comes first, otherwise we lose our justification for squandering our remaining resources.)

    33. Re:Reducing illegal immigration? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      heinlein was an idiot. Robots are already making more robots. Since the only way to make the hardware for robots is through the use of... you guessed it, computational machines and industrial robots.

    34. Re:Reducing illegal immigration? by sjames · · Score: 2

      And how long until it can distinguish weeds from crops?

      That's easy, have the robot rip it out of the ground. If it's back next week, it's a weed. :-)

    35. Re:Reducing illegal immigration? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the GPS system "craps out", you still have a driver on the tractor to take over. These systems have gone beyond the experimentation phase.

  10. robots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Farmers everywhere will be screaming "The Cylons took our jobs"

    1. Re:robots by Macrat · · Score: 1

      Las tostadoras tomaron nuestros trabajos

  11. Apropos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Quote on page bottom as I read the comments:
    "Why not go out on a limb? Isn't that where the fruit is?"

  12. No Thank You by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Truly amazing technology! But... The idea that this sort of thing will free people to lead more leisure lives is nonsense. What technology like this does is eliminate jobs for humans, who will than have to find other jobs, and eventually, in the end, result in huge unemployment, and a more defined caste system of super rich and dirt poor.

    Seriously.

    --
    If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
    1. Re:No Thank You by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It's not the fault of those of us trying to improve the lives of humanity that we have a stupid economic system where the advances of the society are shared unequally.

    2. Re:No Thank You by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why would you exclude a middle class caste which is arguably far bigger in number than the super rich caste?

    3. Re:No Thank You by AllWorkAndNoPlay · · Score: 1

      So is it better for the humans who lose their jobs picking strawberries 8 hours a day to be able to walk at 40 because they didn't spend a decade hunched over straining their back, or to be in a position of finding a different profession? Being able to walk sounds like great leisure to me.

    4. Re:No Thank You by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 2

      Only as long as we allow the constant accumulation of wealth in the hands of the few. It does not necessarily have to be that way.

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    5. Re:No Thank You by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 2

      So is it better for the humans who lose their jobs picking strawberries 8 hours a day ...

      Gain some perspective. It is *not* the task itself, but the *trend* to automate. As machines replace those who for whatever reason choose or find themselves in physical labor, those jobs will go away, and people who are *good but simple* will no longer have jobs. After them, *YOUR* "middle class" job will be eliminated, and you will become part of the Surfs. Think about it, and you will see that in the end of the "Automate Everything" trend, only the rich and super rich will have meaningful lives and the only alternative will be subservience.

      --
      If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
    6. Re:No Thank You by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 1

      Says "AllWorkAndNoPlay"... ;)
      Sorry, could not resist that one :D

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    7. Re:No Thank You by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Really? I have lots of free time, work far shorter hours, have a much higher standard of living than my parents did at my age and a vastly higher standard of living than any of my grandparents did at my age. I'm definitely not super rich (well, except in the sense that anyone living in an industrialised western nation is in the top 10% of the world's wealth), but I certainly would not be able to enjoy my current lifestyle if it were not for the fact that automation has brought down the cost of living comfortably. If wheat still needed to be harvested by men with scythes and clothes still needed to be hand sewn from cloth made by someone with a hand loom that took a week to weave a single piece (from hand-spun wool), then I would be barely able to afford food, let alone clothes.

      I live in a society where bread is so cheap that I can afford to eat a few slices from a loaf and then throw the rest of it away! And this isn't even a prerogative of the middle classes, even the 'poor' people can generally afford to do it. I can walk into a hospital or a GP's surgery and be prescribed drugs that will cure diseases that would have killed the richest man in the world a hundred years ago. This is almost entirely due to automation.

      Yes, some jobs have gone away, but somehow I don't really find the fact that I never had the opportunity as a child to work in a coal mine particularly upsetting. I am very happy, in contrast, with the fact that I can be paid to write books and articles by a publisher in the USA and by companies all over the world to write code. This would have been completely impossible even thirty years ago and difficult ten or so years ago.

      Seriously.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    8. Re:No Thank You by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The last time it happened (mechanization of agriculture) was back in the second half of the 19th century. That time is now referred to as a golden age in many countries around the world. Democracy and knowledge made huge strides.

      On the other hand you're right that unemployment was a major problem. It's going to become a major problem soon again. Three major options then open themselves to governments: to educate the unemployed, to employ the unemployed in public works, or to arm the unemployed...

      Forbidding robotics is not going to work, because it would have to be a global ban by a world government. (NWO buffs may argue that such a government will exist.)

    9. Re:No Thank You by The+End+Of+Days · · Score: 0

      Well sure, the *good but simple* people will lose out, but what about the *mediocre and retarded* people?

      I don't see how my middle class job is going to be eliminated because a robot performs repetitive tasks. I don't perform a job that can be automated.

      Aside from that, if everything is automated, what exactly would the subservient be subservient to? Just slaving away for kicks?

    10. Re:No Thank You by The+End+Of+Days · · Score: 1

      It's not the fault of those who benefit most from the economic system that there are large numbers of mediocre people who bring nothing to the system and therefore draw little. No one forces anyone to remain unskilled.

    11. Re:No Thank You by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 2

      Because the "middle class" is increasingly becoming closer to the poorer classes than the rich class?

    12. Re:No Thank You by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 2

      Well sure, the *good but simple* people will lose out, but what about the *mediocre and retarded* people?

      You know, if you're that much of an asshole, well, sucks to be you.

      In the end, self-centered assholes like you die alone and lonely. So enjoy.

      --
      If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
    13. Re:No Thank You by hedwards · · Score: 2

      You said what I was going to say much more succinctly. 80 years ago the assumption was that workers would be down to like 4 hours a day by now. Due to gains in efficiency. Instead what happened was the rich started to take bigger slices, like they had prior to the labor movement.

      Of course it doesn't help that people start to buy things they didn't need and didn't particularly want and definitely couldn't afford.

    14. Re:No Thank You by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 1

      Well, thank you. The thing to do now is to find a way to make it work for everyone and not for the few. Obviously the orthodox models of Marxism are not doing it, but I still think that shared ownership of the means of production is the only way to go in a fully automatized society. The devil is in the details, as usual, though.

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    15. Re:No Thank You by hedwards · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That's not true. My last job was paying $27k a year. Rent around here if you want some place decent to live it is at least $8400 a year, health insurance if you're paying out of pocket is easily another $3600, bus pass is another grand there. Then there's the taxes, another something like $3300 for social security and another grand or so for income tax.

      And when you get to the bottom line there's very little left over for actual life. I was busting my hump for that money, and it still wasn't realistically enough to live a reasonably good life. Certainly not enough to throw away food or waste stuff I'd paid for.

    16. Re:No Thank You by timeOday · · Score: 2

      I have lots of free time, work far shorter hours, have a much higher standard of living than my parents did at my age

      Are you an immigrant? That is no longer the norm in the US.

    17. Re:No Thank You by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Think about it, and you will see that in the end of the "Automate Everything" trend, only the rich and super rich will have meaningful lives and the only alternative will be subservience.

      Only within the existing capitalist framework - which would become more and more redundant in that scenario. There is little doubt that those in power would try to preserve it, but it doesn't have to be that way.

      This is a fairly good treatment of the problem, and both possible outcomes.

    18. Re:No Thank You by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      80 years ago the assumption was that workers would be down to like 4 hours a day by now. Due to gains in efficiency. Instead what happened was the rich started to take bigger slices, like they had prior to the labor movement.

      People who made those assumptions are idiots, and many people still think that way. Technology is meant to accomplish more, not provide more leisure time. Huge difference.

    19. Re:No Thank You by Spy+Handler · · Score: 1

      What exactly were you doing at your last job in which you were busting your hump for 27k a year?

      My guess would be that whatever it was, if you were doing it (or something comparable) a 100 years ago, your standard of living would've been a lot worse than it is now.

      People tend to forget that malnourishment -- not having enough food to eat -- was constant threat for the majority of world's population for, pretty much the entirety of the existence of the human race, right up to the second half of 20th century. People tend to forget fast (or if young, never bother to read history) and their definition of standard of living changes fast (I don't have a iPad G4 with unlimited data plan so I'm poor!).

      People think Mexico is a dirt-poor country in which everyone lives in miserable poverty, where the only hope of a better life is to swim across the river and make it to the U.S. But did you know that obesity is a huge problem in Mexico? The rate of obesity is higher in Mexico than even the USA. That's right, most of the people in this dirt-poor nation EAT TOO MUCH FOOD.

    20. Re:No Thank You by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      27000
      -8400
      -3300
      -3600
      -1000
      -------
      10700.

      10700 / 52 = 205.77

      So, you can't live a decent life on $205 a week?
      Cry me a river.

    21. Re:No Thank You by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If we're into anecdotes, I make 1/2 of what my father made at my age (although he worked ~25% more hours), I make half the amount he did for overtime (what little exists), my first job paid about 1/3rd of what my dad's did (in adjusted dollars), my house is the same size as my parent's first house but costs 4x my salary (my parent's first house cost 2.5x their salary at the time). My standard of living requires me to drive used cars that are constantly broken (at this point in my parent's life they had bought their second new car). My dad would tend to work at least 10 years in one company without the company having to lay him off/going bust (last place he worked at over 25 years). I'm lucky if the company lasts more than a couple of years (or needs someone for that long/doesn't burn out the employees faster than every 6 months on average). Overall, he paid about 10% fewer taxes, and had much more freedom (I can't even warm up my car in the freezing winter without receiving a ticket by laws passed by people who can afford garages).

      Where I live a loaf of bread takes somewhat less than 30 minutes of minimum wage labour to afford after taxes (Decent bread is generally under $3 + 13% taxes, minimum wage is $10 - ~25% in taxes). While hospital is free here, drugs are far out of reach of the poor (As they are not provided for free, not even the most basic--my wife had to provide insurance [or cash] to be prescribed Tylenol 3's at hospital--and I had to go and get them!) and many suffer from treatable diseases because they can't afford the medications necessary. The poor here generally do not receive any dental care at all (I know people on welfare who are on their last few teeth). The jobless live on under $20 a week for food. And this country is considered a "nicer" place to live in than the US (for those wondering, this is in Canada).

      The one thing that I do have better is the nature of my job is far safer (My dad was a pipefitter, I'm in IT).

      Now, if we go back more than 2 generations, I'd be in agreement. Things peaked out with the baby boomers and, IMHO, we're doing our best to keep things from sliding back down.

    22. Re:No Thank You by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's great. Now, and this may seem a silly question on /., do you have a wife and family and can you support them solely on your income? Because that is where the middle class used to be in my country. One spouse worked and could pay all the bills, while the other could raise children, etc...... Nobody seems to have noticed that in thirty years time we have gone from only one partner working to two, for exactly the same, or less, return.

    23. Re:No Thank You by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      Yes indeed the automation we have seen over the last 150 years or so has put us all out of work and made us all really poor, right?

      I'd say it's thanks to automation that people have the money and the time to use web sites like this one to begin with.

    24. Re:No Thank You by sjames · · Score: 1

      Only if we're stupid enough to let our own construct (the economic system) do that to us.

      The super rich might well try to take all of the advantage for themselves and leave the rest to starve, but a liberal application of the guillotine can fix that.

    25. Re:No Thank You by sjames · · Score: 1

      Then the surfs toss the super rich into the wood chipper and live happily ever after.

      The super rich might want to keep that in mind.

    26. Re:No Thank You by Idiomatick · · Score: 1

      Only in the states can I see society letting the cards fall that way. In the civilized world however; Automation will free up time to better enjoy life. It will reduce the average working hours without impacting income. And the disparity of wealth will go largely unchanged. This will do nothing but good.

      Only in America would you turn down advancement, despise it even to maintain your poor way of life. Are you really so disheartened, so jaded that you feel this way?

    27. Re:No Thank You by Idiomatick · · Score: 1

      By your figures you have 10.7k to spend on the stuff you missed. Take off food/drink and a couple outings. And you still have about 5k to spend on leisure. Sign up to a handful of services, a couple magazines, and a game. Sign up to a fitness club or get some lessons. And you still have a bit left over.

      Really, you've no idea what life is like for most people. There are millions of people out there today who 'bust their hump' for 1/3rd that. Many of those people live in your country. You weren't complaining about not having a 'reasonably good life' you wanted a reasonably luxurious life.

    28. Re:No Thank You by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I work with maintaining and developing automated systems (PLC, HMI-programming, robotics, vision etc.), I do agree that sooner or later my job will be automated as well (at least the manual work parts) but when we do we are darn close to the singularity.. and by then it's just politics that decides if anyone needs to go hungry.

    29. Re:No Thank You by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's not true. My last job was paying $27k a year. Rent around here if you want some place decent to live it is at least $8400 a year, health insurance if you're paying out of pocket is easily another $3600, bus pass is another grand there. Then there's the taxes, another something like $3300 for social security and another grand or so for income tax.

      And when you get to the bottom line there's very little left over for actual life. I was busting my hump for that money, and it still wasn't realistically enough to live a reasonably good life. Certainly not enough to throw away food or waste stuff I'd paid for.

      The food you eat today, even the dirt-cheap crap from the clearance rack or the 25cent burger joint, is FAR superior to what KINGS and emperors ate even a couple hundred years ago. Polio? No worries. Smallpox? Not likely. When was the last time you had to worry about Scurvy? Vitamin deficiency?
      Those clothes you wear are in many cases much higher quality fabric than what you could find even 50, let alone 100 years ago, with the exception of the extremely wealthy. You think of things in terms of absolute dollars, but you're ignoring relative value.

      And when you get to the bottom line there's very little left over for actual life. I was busting my hump for that money, and it still wasn't realistically enough to live a reasonably good life.

      And THIS is exactly why you don't get it. Work, eating, sleeping, and doing chores IS LIFE. What? You want LEISURE time, to do stuff you just kind of FEEL like doing? That was largely not possible 100 years ago for anyone not in the wealthy elite. Guess where holidays come from- they were your chance to have a 'day off', an opportunity for some leisure time. The rest of your life was surviving, living, getting by.

      By "yesteryear's" standards you have life VERY good right now, and really it's a pity more people don't understand this. Take a trip to a 3rd world country and see how much they would agree that your lifestyle is not "reasonably good".

    30. Re:No Thank You by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2

      I've noticed that all of the people replying with counterarguments have made it very clear that they are in the USA. I'm not - I live and was born in the UK, as were my parents and most of my grandparents. I was replying to the grandparent's point that automation never improved the standard of living for anyone other than the ultra-rich. I pointed out that this is clearly not the case. If you want to find a reason for the growing gulf between rich and poor (or ultra-rich and everyone else) in the USA, then you need to look elsewhere. I'd start with the fear of socialism.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    31. Re:No Thank You by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      This seems to be a problem with other aspects of your society, rather than with automation. Rent on my last house was about $6500 (at the current exchange rate), which got me a large two-bedroom flat with a reasonable garden across the road from a park and about 40 minutes walk from the city centre. I've since bought a house, my mortgage payments are a bit more than a third of what I was paying, and I now have a nicer house with a view of the sea (across the road from a different park) and about 20 minutes walk from the city centre. I don't have to pay health insurance, because this is covered from taxes (which are about what you pay, on a similar income). An annual bus pass is about the same price, but most places are within easy walking or cycling distance of my house, so I haven't had one since I was a student living right on the edge of the city (student bus passes are about half that price).

      Your $27K, after taxes, would still be above my cost of living, although not by quite enough that I'd be able to use my entire tax-free savings allowance (especially not now it's been increased). The UK is hardly a utopia, but we seem not to be quite so intent on destroying the middle classes are the USA.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    32. Re:No Thank You by Captain+Hook · · Score: 1

      Are you sure they are eating too much food and not just eating High Calorie / Nutriant Poor food which is typical cheaper than high quality food?

      --
      These comments are my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the other voices in my head.
    33. Re:No Thank You by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, you obviously aren't one of the millions of low-skilled working class people that depend on these lost jobs or whose lives are dramatically changed when some of these events occur. You know like when it became so easy to outsource things like call centers that company executives began cutting down on U.S. support centers, etc. or investors seen how cheap transportation would be in comparison to local production so began investing in foreign manufacturing companies and millions of factory workers were laid off. But I'm glad that you can now sit around and write a book while friends and family members of mine struggle in the middle ages of their lives figuring out how to gain new skills for a job to continue barely sustaining their families. Great trade off.

      I know its not really the technology but how its used that hurts people's livelihoods - I think its important that people consider these things. Technology like this has the potential to create jobs as well as destroy them but without the assistance from social institutions to help people acquire the skills for these jobs then we see these mass layoffs, etc. I know some of my right-wing friends will complain about the social institutions comment but seriously if we are going to change the way dynamics of what it means to be employable then our government's job is to make sure that the people are protected.

  13. and whats the fail out when very few have health c by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 1

    and whats the fail out when very few have health care? after all the jobs are gone?

    Jam packed jails and lockup with people who just go in to get some health care?

    lots of sick people who make the rich who can pay for it get sick off the people who can pay for it?

  14. Re:and whats the fail out when very few have healt by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 2

    That's exactly the problem here - capitalism won't work when we automatize most of the jobs. We are seeing the transition into that right here, right now. The only question remaining is if the current system can fail and transform gracefully, or if it will end up in violence. I am not optimistic.

    --
    Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
  15. A nice side-effect of central planning by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You have to bury too much of the population in holes before they accept your wonderful plans for them.

  16. First Blood? Look at the UI by Lord+Byron+II · · Score: 1

    In the video attached to the story, look at the user interface on the robot - It has a big red button marked "First Blood". Why??

    1. Re:First Blood? Look at the UI by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 1

      It really does have a button labelled First Blood (in the second video showing the UI, look at the big red button in the lower-left corner of the main graphics window.

      Perhaps Sylvester Stallone was hired as a consultant? ;)

    2. Re:First Blood? Look at the UI by Lord+Byron+II · · Score: 1

      I'm a little concerned - that button may be all that SkyNet needs to begin.

    3. Re:First Blood? Look at the UI by blincoln · · Score: 1

      It has a big red button marked "First Blood". Why??

      Obviously this harvesting robot was repurposed from sort of military super-weapon after said weapon was banned by international treaty and the military supplier needed to recoup its investment. There is no chance - no chance! - that it will revert to its original programming later on and begin harvesting humans instead.

      --
      "...always new atoms but always doing the same dance, remembering what the dance was yesterday." -Richard Feynman
  17. Technology and caste by handy_vandal · · Score: 1

    Probably true, alas.

    --
    -kgj
  18. Re:and whats the fail out when very few have healt by zach_the_lizard · · Score: 2

    They said the same thing when the first steam engine powered the first factory. Human greed will never go away, and that is the engine of capitalism, not money, not labor. We will find other unmet wants to work on.

    --
    SSC
  19. Vines? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But of course, raspberries grow on bushes, not vines.

    1. Re:Vines? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They're called canes. Bramble fruit grow on canes.

  20. Too slow. by Animats · · Score: 4, Informative

    From observation to collection, the harvesting process takes about 9 seconds per berry. That's too slow.

    This isn't the first strawberry-picking robot. Here's one from five years ago. But compare this with a commercial strawberry harvester that's just digging up the beds. (Note, incidentally, that the tractor is driverless. That's standard precision farming technology today; several GPS manufacturers make the gear for that.)

    Automated fruit sorting using computer vision is a routine process, and it's really fast. Small-fruit sorting machines are strange to watch. Cameras watch the fruit go by, and air jets push it around. This is all happening in bulk, much faster than humans can even watch, as big conveyors pump a stream of mixed product through the machine and streams of sorted product come out.

    Robotic tomato pickers have been built by several groups, but so far the machines are too slow and the cost is too high.

    In practice, the way agricultural sorting works is that the good stuff is sold is fresh fruit, the not-so-good stuff goes off to make jellies, tomato paste, and such, and the rejected stuff becomes animal feed or fertilizer.

    1. Re:Too slow. by Velocir · · Score: 1

      Agreed - way too slow. I worked picking raspberries and boysenberries a few years ago, and if I'd taken 9 seconds per berry I'd have been fired within hours. I'd have been averaging about 50 berries per minute. I'm not sure how many cars per library of congress that is...

    2. Re:Too slow. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But compare this with a commercial strawberry harvester

      Confucius he say tractor driving over strawberries before they are picked may not be good idea.

  21. Re:and whats the fail out when very few have healt by hedwards · · Score: 1

    In this case, I don't think that we can blame capitalism. 80 years ago it was assumed that by the turn of the next century that we'd be down to only working an average of 4 hours a day and getting to goof off the rest of the time. Which at the time seemed reasonable given that the work day had been shrinking.

    But obviously that hasn't happened, the only people working short hours like that are doing it because they can't get more hours or don't have to support themselves.

    Basically a few things happened. One was that people started to expect to own a lot of crap that they probably don't want and definitely don't need. Rather than being happy owning one car, people started buying two or more cars and rather than a rather basic model going for deluxe features.

    That was bad, but then you had a lot of pseudo-intellectuals suggesting that we could all have more pie if we handed it to the richest to manage. Turns out that it doesn't work that way. The wealth comes from the production of things, not so much from the redistribution of things and the wealthy don't consider themselves to be responsible for the well being of the poor. There are exceptions, just not enough to make it work.

  22. Re:and whats the fail out when very few have healt by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 1

    Well, if you automatize every menial job away, there won't me much to do for a lot of the population than sucking the owning classes' dicks and licking their boots. You want to go there?

    --
    Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
  23. Re:and whats the fail out when very few have healt by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 1

    Aren't you blaming capitalism in your last paragraph? That's exactly the consequences of accumulation of capital. Pretty much orthodox Marxism, not that I disagree with that.

    --
    Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
  24. Not the Agriculture Ministry by EdZ · · Score: 1

    Institute of Agricultural Machinery

    But are they in charge of Gundam?

  25. Re:and whats the fail out when very few have healt by benjamindees · · Score: 1

    capitalism won't work when we automatize most of the jobs

    It will work if you own capital.

    --
    "I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
  26. Tomatoes anyone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Great, so now we're going to suffer with shitty berries too?

  27. Re:and whats the fail out when very few have healt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > capitalism won't work when we automatize most of the jobs.

    Sure it will. It just means that you have to be smarter than a machine, and have a skill that cannot be trivially done by an industrial robot. Fortunately, this is not difficult; humans have evolved complex brains which excel at tasks that cannot be automated.

    Paying people to do what machines can trivially do is a form of the Broken Window Fallacy.

  28. Re:and whats the fail out when very few have healt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm confident that there will always be a demand for good dick-suckers, and the guys who train them.

    But really, moving a lot of people over to non-menial jobs doesn't have to be a bad thing.
    As plan B, they can always die for their country. Robots will never be able to replace us as meaningless human sacrifices.

  29. Parable on structural unemployment & basic inc by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p14bAe6AzhA

    I made that to address the issues you raise...

    Which are also addressed in the knol, too.
    http://knol.google.com/k/paul-d-fernhout/beyond-a-jobless-recovery#Four_long(2D)term_heterodox_alternatives

    See also my comments here in response to Martin Ford's blog post:
        http://econfuture.wordpress.com/2010/10/19/robots-jobs-and-our-assumptions/
    "In brief, a combination of robotics and other automation, better design, and voluntary social networks are decreasing the value of most paid human labor (by the law of supply and demand). At the same time, demand for stuff and services is limited for a variety of reasons -- some classical, like a cyclical credit crunch or a concentration of wealth (aided by automation and intellectual monopolies) and some novel like people finally getting too much stuff as they move up Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs or a growing environmental consciousness. In order to move past this, our society needs to emphasize a gift economy (like Wikipedia or Debian GNU/Linux or blogging), a basic income (social security for all regardless of age), democratic resource-based planning (with taxes, subsidies, investments, and regulation), and stronger local economies that can produce more of their own stuff (with organic gardens, solar panels, green homes, and 3D printers). There are some bad "make work" alternatives too that are best avoided, like endless war, endless schooling, endless bureaucracy, endless sickness, and endless prisons. Simple attempts to prop things up, like requiring higher wages in the face of declining demand for human labor and more competition for jobs, will only accelerate the replacement process for jobs as higher wage requirements would just be more incentive to automate, redesign, and push more work to volunteer social networks. We are seeing the death spiral of current mainstream economics based primarily on a link between the right to consume and the need to have a job (even as there may remain some link for higher-than-typical consumption rates in some situations, even with a basic income, a gift economy, etc). ..."

    In another comment I there I summarize these four progressive approaches in a bit more detail.

    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  30. On limited demand and ways forward by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

    "We will find other unmet wants to work on."

    As I explain at the knol and elsewhere, that assumes a few things:
    * People in general will not continue a move towards environemntal consciousness, voluntary simplicity, spiritual gorwth, and moving up malsow's heierarchy of needs to more social interaction and self actualization which generally is fairly cheap to do.
    * Virtualization using computers won't meet these needs (so, owning a big mansion, but in Second Life where it is cheap to have one);
    * Productivity will not continue to rise faster than any ncrease in demand;
    * Most human labor will remain valuable because robotics and other automation, better design, and/or voluntary social networks will never be able to do most jobs (or avoid the need to do them) better than most paid labor can do the work; and
    * There will not be increasing concentration of wealth through low barganining power for labor as ever more peoeple are put out of work, where at best workers need to take on debt leading to bubbles to continue to consume.

    If any one of those assumptions prove false, an income-through-jobs link can't work, as productivity will outpace demand. It seems like all of them are becoming false in our current economic system.

    At some point, excessive greed and financial obesity may be seen as a sign of mental illness, not a sign someone should be a leader...

    See also:
        "RSA Animate - Drive: The surprising truth about what motivates us"
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc&feature=channel

    See James P. Hogan's Voyage from Yesteryear for a story about a better future...
        http://www.jamesphogan.com/books/info.php?titleID=29&cmd=summary

    More by me on ways forward:
        http://econfuture.wordpress.com/2010/10/19/robots-jobs-and-our-assumptions/#comment-402

    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  31. Re:and whats the fail out when very few have healt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You're missing the point -- we automated most of the menial jobs hundreds of years ago. It turned out all right. Why does it make sense to worry about the automation of a few more of them?

  32. localism and 3D printing by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

    Yes, being able to produce energy at home with reneables like solar panel,s and being able toprint your own stuff in a 3D printer (and even recycle stuff back into raw materials) is a form of capitalims that connects with the locaism solution I mention (among others of a gift economy a basic income, and democratic resource-base plannin).

    See writings by Kevin Carson for more ideas on how we might all become capitalists in that sense, even as we move beyond other aspects of capitalism.
        http://mutualist.blogspot.com/

    See also:
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributism
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_S._Albus#Peoples.27_Capitalism

    A basic income could also be seen as a claim on our global capital as a right of citizenship:
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_credit
        http://www.basicincome.org/bien/

    But it is a different paradigm for the mythology of wealth:
        http://www.conceptualguerilla.com/?q=node/402

    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  33. Re:and whats the fail out when very few have healt by complete+loony · · Score: 2

    Capitalism doesn't work when we live off credit. When we mainly extend credit to those speculating on the prices of existing assets.

    --
    09F91102 no, 455FE104 nope, F190A1E8 uh-uh, 7A5F8A09 that's not it, C87294CE no. Ah! 452F6E403CDF10714E41DFAA257D313F.
  34. Re:and whats the fail out when very few have healt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Obamacare has already passed, get over it. Not enough jobs will mean far bigger social problems than a lack of "free" health care. Historically it has brought on revolutions and genocides.

  35. grape harvesting machines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Here in Southwest Oregon, grape harvesting machines are standard. Raven64, are you in South France? Don't growers in your area have such machines yet?

  36. The fallacy of the three sector hypothesis by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 2

    Related to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-sector_hypothesis

    People went from 90% agriculture workers to about 2% agriculutre workers over the past two hundred years in the USA. Of the current agriculutral production, 75% of the effort goes to meat production which is not strictly needed and in general is harming people's health, and otherwise people eat too much of the wrong foods and are obese (see Dr. Fuhrman). Why is agriculture still not using 90% of the labor force? Automation and limited demand.

    Compulsory schools were created to keep kids off the street and train them to be soldiers and factory workers. Working hours went down from 12 hours 6 days a week to 8 hours five days a week, and only for adults. Child labor was outlawed. So, much of the working force was freed.

    In 1950, about 30% of the workforce was in manufacturing. Now it is more like aroung 12%, and the same amount of stuff is still produced (plus some is imported from China). Why? Increasing automation, better design, and limited demand. Many people are drowning in junk that clutters their homes and lives.

    Granted, in the USA, women have gone into the work force and there are other confounding factors.

    What happens when services go the same way through robotics and other automation, better design, voluntary social networks, and limited demand?
    http://knol.google.com/k/paul-d-fernhout/beyond-a-jobless-recovery/

    Consider also that unlike food and some basic goods, most services are optional.

    It turns out even most medical care is probably harmful and unneccesary, compared to just eating better and getting adequate vitamin D.
    http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/treatment.shtml
    http://www.alternativeratreatments.com/eat-to-live.html

    The entire economy is poised to implode.
    http://idlenest.freehostia.com/mirror/www.whywork.org/rethinking/whywork/abolition.html
    http://idlenest.freehostia.com/mirror/www.whywork.org/index.html
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc&feature=channel
    http://www.marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm

    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  37. Why the Triple Revolution memo was ahead of time by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1
    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  38. Re:and whats the fail out when very few have healt by Jeremi · · Score: 1

    Well, if you automatize every menial job away, there won't me much to do for a lot of the population than sucking the owning classes' dicks and licking their boots. You want to go there?

    Right, but on the other hand, the commodities necessary for basic survival (strawberries, etc) will be manufactured so efficiently that even the underemployed and unemployed will be able to afford them.

    So there you have it: the future, where all the menial work is done by robots, and the majority of non-highly-specialized/educated humans live comfortably on the dole. Utopia or dystopia?

    --


    I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
  39. Democratic planning is only one aspect.. by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

    Manuel De Landa talks about how all real systems are meshworks and hierarchies. I suggest the future will be a mix of a gift economy, a basic income, stronger local economies with improved local subsistence, and democratic resource-based planning.

    Markets can be good when eveyone has about equal purchasing power and when things cost their true costs, accounting for externalities like pollution or the cost of enforcement or systematic risk. But in order to do that often takes some demoncratic resource-based central planning using taxes, subsidies, income transfers, investments, and regulation.

    All economies are socially constructed thing in practice.
    http://www.conceptualguerilla.com/?q=node/402

    Consider how false most mainstream economic assumptions are about motivation:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc&feature=channel

    We need as a society to move beyond simplistic and black/white conditioned-by-political-parties reflexive thinking on these themes.

    The following is derived from what I say here:
    http://econfuture.wordpress.com/2010/10/19/robots-jobs-and-our-assumptions/#comment-402

    There are four interwoven good ways forward (basic income, gift economy, democratic resource-based planning, and local subsistence) and at least five bad ways to go backward (endless war, prisons, schooling, sickness, and bureaucracy). Here are some more details on these choices.

    One way forward is a "basic income" where some percentage of the GDP (half?) is distributed equally to every citizen with no requirements related to age, disability, or willingness to work. That is not entirely about "need" (even as that is true for the reasons you mention that people need access to the fruits of industry -- see "The Triple Revolution Memorandum" from 1964). A basic income is IMHO mostly about the fact that every citizen has some moral claim on the industrial commons as a human right. This claim is for all sorts of reasons. Part of it is the same as people having some claim on breathing air by right of existence (and depriving people of air would be considered murder). And people have some claim in a democracy on the government to consider their interests through government programs, regulations, and taxation. And, there is the fact that any system of private property still has to begin with the arbitrariness of the original land distribution, which generally comes down to "finders keepers" or "might makes right" which are both problematical morally (like in the dispossession of any natives from the land, or in the slavery often used to work it -- whether chattel slavery or wage slavery). The USA already has aspects of a basic income with "Social Security" for the old or disabled (though it is age or needs based), and the USA has school taxes and college aid that pay a lot of money for young people (but not directly, only through a problematical public works jobs program called school).

    A second positive solution is stronger local economies with local currencies and more local compassion and improved local subsistence (like using advanced robotics and advanced materials science to have cheap 3D printers that can print most of what people want, or cheap agricultural robots that allow people to easily produce food locally, or cheap solar panels printed in those 3D printers that make for cheap local power, or cheap recycling and resource extraction using nanotech). The town of Ithaca, with Ithaca HOURs and a town-wide focus on environmentalism has aspects of this.

    Marshall Brain's Manna, at the end, had a solution that had aspects of both a basic income and stronger local economies (although the economy he had in Australia was still much larger than a local economy focused on a street or a village).

    A third positive solut

    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  40. Caitalism hits the fan... by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

    ...for the credit reason you said: http://www.capitalismhitsthefan.com/

    Basically, instead of giving money from increased productivity to workers as wages, as worker's collective bargaining power eroded for a variety of reasons (automation, women entering the work force, competition from China or other US states like the auto industry moving south, etc.), rich people kept all the money from productivity increases and *loaned* it to the workers instead. That eventually collapsed.

    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  41. Racist by Baldrson · · Score: 1

    Agricultural mechanization is for Nazis.

  42. Hunter/gatherer parallels by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 2

    I think it will be good overall (barring things like irony killing us all)
        http://www.pdfernhout.net/recognizing-irony-is-a-key-to-transcending-militarism.html
    since it it a return to hunter/gatherer ideology with high techology, where hunter/gathers spent much of their time just rasining kids, socializing, and doing hobbies or contemplating nature and the infinite.
        http://www.primitivism.com/original-affluent.htm

    The robots are like the botanical plants that people used to pick the fruits from.

    It is a form of natural capitalism in the sense that the planet and its infrastructure is essentially owned by all the people, who then get dividends as citizen capitalists. :-)
    http://www.pdfernhout.net/post-scarcity-princeton.html#A_history_lesson_pre-scarcity_times_Eden_then_scarcity_times_Dickens_then_post-scarcity_times_real_soon_now

    You can have a basic income as suggested in Manna to schedule and distribute what the robots make through a sort of market demand force.
    http://www.marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm

    Or, if things get so abundant, like if 3D printing gets really good, you get perhaps Star Trek where people have moved beyond money, and you get mostly a gift economy and various sorts of ad-hoc planning and organizing like, say, Debian GNU/Linux.
    "Study Reports On Debian Governance, Social Organization"
    http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/04/14/1349202

    Typical hunter/gatherers had a gift economy and essentially collective land "ownership".
    "Gift Economy: Refuting the Market Logic"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jy4hFVcl6Vo

    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  43. Hardky Racist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Actually, the Nazis wanted to reduce non-Germanic races to slave labors. With endless supply of non-Germanic races, they have no need for agricultural mechanization.

  44. Preventing violent revolutions and genocides by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

    I'm hoping for more of a gradual non-violent evolution into these changes over the next twenty to thirty years, myself:
    http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/change/science_nonviolence.html

    But, with all the ironies of people using these technologies of abundance to produce super fancy weapons like military robots to fight over percieved scaricty, it is worriesome. Rather than military robots to enforce a social order based on gettign peopel to worl like robots, why not just build robots to do any work people don't want to do voluntarily in the first place?

    If it was a "revolution", think of it on the order of women getting the right to vote in the USA,
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dPF0SGh_PQ
    or the UK outlawing slavery (with compensation to the owners and little violence, prompted by the Quakers, compared to the bloodbath in the USA over that),
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolitionism#Slavery_Abolition_Act_1833
    or the "computer revolution",
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2950949730059754521#
    and so on.

    I'm not disagreeing though with your point that the potential is there for great violence -- and not just in the streets, but also abortions, domestic violence, suicides, and so on. How can we prevent that?

    I'm trying in my own nutty way to recruit the global intelligence community to help with a peaceful changeover. :-)
    http://www.pdfernhout.net/on-dealing-with-social-hurricanes.html
    http://pcast.ideascale.com/a/dtd/76207-8319

    But ultimately, some sort of change will happen regardless:
    http://www.blessedunrest.com/
    http://www.marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm

    Still, it might happen with less bloodshed if more people got involved sooner and understood the basic issues better.
    http://econfuture.wordpress.com/2010/10/19/robots-jobs-and-our-assumptions/
    http://knol.google.com/k/paul-d-fernhout/beyond-a-jobless-recovery

    The USA already spends about US$800 a citizen a year between schooling, social security, and welfare. Why not just scrap all those programs and give every citizen a check for US$800 a month as a basic income? A family of four could then just about scrape by somewhere rural, and given all their spare time, and they could homeschool or purchase tutoring or private school lessons. Public school buildings could be turned into library-like learing centers. Teachers could become private tutors or just live frugally off their basic income. People would have more free time to help their elderly neighbors, too, like bringing over stuff from their gardens, even if old people got less than their current amount. And so on. Probably this would fly best with seniors if just everyone got the current social security amounts though (no one wants to get less), which might mean more taxes.

    And the USA already spends more for Medicare and Medicad per capita than other countries need to cover their entire population with better results, so health care could be extended to all with some better management and a focus on better diet, curing vitamin D deficiency, and building healthier "BlueZones" infrastructure, which would all save sick care costs, making single payer he

    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  45. Six hours, and nobody has signed up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    to be on the strawberry selecting and procuring robotic overlords welcoming committee?

    *taps foot impatiently*

  46. Ministry of Agriculture by PPH · · Score: 1

    I guess they will have to revisit this
    statement.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  47. RE: Robot picker by edison_gonzaga · · Score: 1

    I hope that a robot is invented to do rice farming soon so that farmers will be freed from the hard work farming rice. Not expensive but reasonable for poor farmers to buy in my country. Anyways, hope the price is the same rocky the robot Hahah

  48. Machines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Machines have been determining the 'ripeness' of fruit for years.
    I used to do IT Support for a fruit packing company with a 20 year old fruit sorter. The sensors used to determine how orange and orange was and dump it into its appropriate bin.
    The good fruit would go to supermarkets and the green / rotten stuff would get sent off to make juice :)

  49. TheEndOfDays admits stalking others here? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1891254&cid=34413838 TheEndOfDays likes stalking and trolling others online (as well as starting it up as shown right there)?

    I like how he was put into his rightful place here in the end

    http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1891254&cid=34418274

    That's where TheEndOfDays ran like the trolling little coward he really is, unable to back up his trolling and stalking crap, just as he did in the URL above I just posted here.

    So what was TheEndOfDays reply when asked "why are you stalking others?"

    See here http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1892470&cid=34419130 or this direct quote below:

    "Because I can" by The End Of Days (1243248)
    on Thursday December 02, @12:07PM (#34419130)

    Now everyone knows you're a scumbag troller and stalker because you admitted to stalking others here, because I can expose you admitting it with your own words scumbag.

  50. Re:and whats the fail out when very few have healt by sjames · · Score: 1

    That is exactly what Fernhout and many others wish to address.

    It's a funny thing, we treat employment as if it's actually desirable. It is not. The income from employment is not only desirable, but necessary, but the employment itse;f is only an impediment to enjoying life. Consider, what would you think if you saw 200 people compete to see who gets the "privilege" of being kicked in the groin 5 days a week.

    That's not to say we can all just quit tomorrow and live happily ever after, of course. There is work that must be done if we are to survive. I submit that the more of it we can get machines do for us, the better. The rest of the work should be distributed as evenly as possible to human beings until we can figure out how to get machines to do it.

    Some work can actually be recreational provided it's done as a hobby and not as employment. That work will actually get done just fine if we simply give people enough free time to practice their hobbies. Examples include designing things, building prototypes, writing software, etc.

    If our economic system is such that we're somehow better off being paid to BE the robots, then it is fundamentally broken. Automation replacing thousands of workers should be cause for celebration! The economy is OUR construct and it should serve us, not the other way around.

    Consider, unemployment has hovered around 10% for some time now. If we all cut back to 36 hour weeks, that would just about cover it!

  51. 9 sec/berry is pretty slow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hey, I live in the strawberry growing capital of the world.. The folks out in the fields are picking a LOT faster than 9 seconds/berry.. I'd guess in the 1 second/berry sort of rate. Granted, they can't keep that up for sustained hours, but still. If I can buy berries at the roadside stand for $10/flat, with hundreds of berries in the flat, I'd guess that the per berry picking cost has to be down in the 1cent/berry level.
    They're paying the workers minimum wage of $8/hr (e.g. 0.2 cents/second)... if they were picking at 10 seconds/berry, those berries would cost a bunch more.

  52. Yes but by ben2umbc · · Score: 1

    Yes, but since they are Japanese robots, they will still require an H1B visa to work in the fields of California.

  53. I for one by scarface71795 · · Score: 0

    Welcome our good tasted Robotic overlords

  54. Tomatoes are easy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you're Dutch (as I infer from your post) you can grow your own tomatoes easily. You do not need a greenhouse or even a large garden. They will grow outside in a large flowerpot, on a balcony if needed.

    One caveat though: don't get your seeds from a garden center (Intratuin for example). Get an F1 hybrid species from a seed distributor. A packet costs about three euro's (contains more seeds than you can effectively plant).

    Every seed will grow to a plant which will give fifty to a hundred excellent, flawless tomatoes. It can't go wrong, you don't have to know about gardening. One thing: water the plants a lot. That's it.

    1. Re:Tomatoes are easy by Muad'Dave · · Score: 1

      Water regularly, not just generously. If you allow the soil to get too dried out and then give them a lot of water, the tomatoes will split.

      --
      Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
  55. Fixed the headline. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Japanese Robot
    will pick only the ripest,
    juicy strawberries.

  56. Hex of the ripest strawberries by daspecster · · Score: 1

    #CD0000

  57. The Political Side of This by progliberty · · Score: 1

    The illegal Mexican immigrants are actually technically being "imported" by the Republicans, because conservative right-wing capitalist policies (less regulations and social services, less ability to practice grass-roots politics, less liberty in the face of market rule) make Mexico less of a free country for its people, so they come here where conditions are better. And yes it could mean loss of jobs if it's actually used by fruit growing companies, but this could just backfire on the Republicans like you because the people will be less happy and poorer in the end due to lower employment. Also if you get rid of the immigrant labor you'll have more people from your own country doing low wage jobs and more people likely to form unions who you can't throw out of the country if they go on strike. Nice try but your logic may be your undoing.

  58. strawberry-picking robots! by team_girl · · Score: 1

    I find your invention of a strawberry-picking robot very fascinating. The technology for a robot to make decisions on the margin by choosing only the ripest strawberries is very impressive. Yet as users, such as “AllWorkAndNoPlay”, have already mentioned, would these robots cause an increase in unemployment? It is something to consider when looking at the economy as a whole. This new technology will increases the supply of strawberries. You should make note to not have too much of an increase of amount of strawberries. This is because with a surplus of strawberries available, the price of them may decrease. Finally, I would like to congratulate you for coming up with the interesting, unique idea of a strawberry-picking robot.