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Google Pushes Openness Over Rooting

jamlam writes "The Android developers blog has a comment from their dev team on the recent 'rooting' of their Nexus S phones. It contains a call from Google to handset manufacturers to open up their phones to give users choice. But will this ever happen in a market dominated by lock-'em-down cellular networks?"

30 of 196 comments (clear)

  1. Suggestion: by Ethanol-fueled · · Score: 4, Interesting
    TFS (TFA doesn't say much more and won't even scroll with NoScript untill you allow the page):

    "It contains a call from Google to handset manufacturers to open up their phones to give users choice. But will this ever happen in a market dominated by lock-'em-down cellular networks?"

    No. The only solution is for Google to roll out their own infrastructure and run their own telecommunications network. They're big enough to compete with the other big boys like At&t.

    But, but...Google will be mining our data and knowing everything about us...

    Like At&t doesn't?! Also, Ph1r5t P05t. May we all have a comfortable and hassle-free series of end-of-year rituals.

    1. Re:Suggestion: by damaged_sectors · · Score: 2

      I trust Google more than AT&T by far.

      I distrust Google less the AT&T by far.

      There, fixed that for you.

      Somewhere between glancing at the subject, and writing the subject headline, the Solstice drinkypoos kicked in. And a comment made by someone called Nick, on a blog written by someone called Tim (both "developers") became the official position of the company that employs them?

      I agree with the(ir) sentiments, but not the interpretation it's turned into. Bah humbug

      As to Google becoming a carrier... pretty likely I'd guess. Verizon'll give the the spectrum they need (in the US). Add VoIP to that and the other carriers have serious competition. Dig a little through Google's acquisitions over the last few years and maybe, just maybe, dark fibre will extend that network.

      A very Happy Solstice and a merry New Year to all

    2. Re:Suggestion: by Daengbo · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I don't think Google should go with cellular, but instead offer free ubiquitous WiFi and promote VoiP. Set up a Google Voice account and you're good. They have the fiber. They have the tech. Google doesn't want to get in that business, but if the net starts Balkanizing, I bet they'd do it.

    3. Re:Suggestion: by imgod2u · · Score: 2

      It'd take a lot for WiFi to be "ubiquitous" to the same level as 3G is now. In major metropolitan areas, it's possible but people outside of cities still want their mobile data.

    4. Re:Suggestion: by arivanov · · Score: 2

      They cannot and it is the _SAME_ reason why the handsets will continue to be locked down.

      The economic model and the expectation towards return on investment by networks is not based on data. It is based on value added services where data is merely a conduit.

      By design, 3G and LTE should have had that imlemented via IMS - all applications were supposed to use it for all of the following: requesting resources, authorisation and billing. All the LTE (and 3G from rel 5 onwards) architecture is a mere slave to that idea. However that _FAILED_. No applications materialised and no revenue was coming from there. The data was idle so mobile networks let us have some of it. However unless they find a way to charge us by application and by transaction and make a premium out of it they cannot break even on data alone.

      So here come plan B and plan C:

      B: Charging based on application by wrapping it around and controlling what it does even if it is not with the resolution of IMS. In order to do that the operators need to ensure that phones are not rooted and we do not get into the habit of doing it.

      C: Charing based on DPI as proposed by the likes of OpeNet.

      Both are coming and the sole reason for them not to be here now is that the billing part is just not there yet. The moment Mobile Cos get their billing and revenue assurance together to bill for plan B and plan C they will do so and no consumer watchdogs, no protests and no legislation will stop them. If they do not they will not break even on their investment into 3G and LTE.

      Coming back to google, google does _NOT_ have that model. It cannot pay for spectrum the same amount of money like let's say Verizon because its model does not provide suffient revenue to break even. The fact that the mobile model has already _FAILED_ massively on IMS and IMS based VAS and will probably struggle very badly on both Plan B (per app charging by operator) and Plan C (DPI) is of little relevance. As long as the mobile companies believe that they can have ROI this way they can and will outinvest the likes of Google which have more conservative revenue models.

      --
      Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
      http://www.sigsegv.cx/
  2. Developer's Choice by lacqui · · Score: 2

    I don't understand this. Google, the creator of the software, has basically said "we want this to be changeable by the user". Which means that, by locking the OS down, the manufacturers are going against the spirit of the developers' wishes. Why didn't Google put a clause in the manufacturer/provider contract "The user will always be allowed full access to the device being managed by this operating system"?

    1. Re:Developer's Choice by Microlith · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Because the handset vendors don't want that, as it leaves an easy avenue for self-support. Rooting is why Motorola locks the kernel down, so you absolutely cannot upgrade to new versions of Android directly.

      Carriers hate it because it means that you're less likely to upgrade to a new contract, since your old phone will last longer.

    2. Re:Developer's Choice by igreaterthanu · · Score: 2

      Why didn't Google put a clause in the manufacturer/provider contract "The user will always be allowed full access to the device being managed by this operating system"

      Um perhaps because Android, being a linux distro, is under the GPL which does not allow them to add additional terms? This could of course be fixed by requiring GPLv3 but that comes with it's own problems.

      --
      I dream of a nation where a man is not judged by his skin color but by an number assigned by a credit rating agency.
    3. Re:Developer's Choice by ArcherB · · Score: 4, Informative

      What good is your old phone without a contract?

      The cell providers make you sign the same contract whether you buy a phone or not. Wouldn't they have an interest in keeping you using the same phone for longer? I don't understand why more carriers don't sell more open phones

      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    4. Re:Developer's Choice by igreaterthanu · · Score: 2

      Not necessarily, see this.

      --
      I dream of a nation where a man is not judged by his skin color but by an number assigned by a credit rating agency.
    5. Re:Developer's Choice by ducomputergeek · · Score: 2

      Correction, because the carriers don't want this. After all, the customers of the handset vendors IS NOT YOU THE END USER, it is the carriers. That is who they are selling to and not the end user. And carriers don't want to sell you a device that lets you do whatever as they've found ways in the past to nickel and dime every feature.

      --
      "The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
    6. Re:Developer's Choice by noidentity · · Score: 4, Funny

      What good is your old phone without a contract?

      Reworded: Tell me, Mr. Anderson, what good is your old phone if you... can't... speak?

    7. Re:Developer's Choice by crasher35 · · Score: 5, Informative

      What good is your old phone without a contract?

      The cell providers make you sign the same contract whether you buy a phone or not. Wouldn't they have an interest in keeping you using the same phone for longer? I don't understand why more carriers don't sell more open phones

      You don't have to renew your contract to continue your service. That's a common misconception. Most carriers will continue to give you service once the contract is up. That's why they offer to upgrade your phone every time your contract is nearing an end, because that becomes an incentive for you to sign into a new contract.

      --

      I don't like to sit. Sitting is for people who like to sit.

    8. Re:Developer's Choice by Sancho · · Score: 5, Informative

      Wrong.

      9. The Free Software Foundation may publish revised and/or new versions
      of the General Public License from time to time. Such new versions will
      be similar in spirit to the present version, but may differ in detail to
      address new problems or concerns.

      Each version is given a distinguishing version number. If the Program
      specifies a version number of this License which applies to it and "any
      later version", you have the option of following the terms and conditions
      either of that version or of any later version published by the Free
      Software Foundation. If the Program does not specify a version number of
      this License, you may choose any version ever published by the Free Software
      Foundation.

      Source

      They can copy the Linux kernel which they can acquire at GPLv2 and then give it out (modified or not) as GPLv3 and those who receive it from them can only use it under the license they received it in, or a newer version. If they want an earlier version of the license then they must find someone willing to give them a copy with an earlier version attached.

      In short, the GPL is forwards compatible not backwards compatible.

      Wrong. The Linux kernel specifies version 2. It does not include the "or later" clause which would allow the use of a later license.

      ulessthanme

    9. Re:Developer's Choice by bain_online · · Score: 2

      From the linux kernel COPYING file:

      Also note that the only valid version of the GPL as far as the kernel
      is concerned is _this_ particular version of the license (ie v2, not
      v2.2 or v3.x or whatever), unless explicitly otherwise stated.

      Linus Torvalds

      Just to substantiate parent's statement

      --
      BAIN http://www.devslashzero.com
    10. Re:Developer's Choice by pspahn · · Score: 2

      I don't know. Seems the Googs wants to wrangle the market. Theoretically, one should be able to get any old Android device and be able to install Google Voice and make calls for free (assuming wifi or whatever). On my Evo, which is currently out of service, I have Voice installed and can send texts but when I try to make a call it still routes through Sprint and won't let me.

      If the device was open, people could just get a Google number and trade a monthly bill for having to be in wifi range when making a call. I'll take that trade any day.

      --
      Someone flopped a steamer in the gene pool.
    11. Re:Developer's Choice by NorQue · · Score: 2

      What good is your old phone without a contract? The cell providers make you sign the same contract whether you buy a phone or not.[...]

      Can only speak on the situation in Germany, but when you don't want a contract here you can switch to one of the countless prepaid providers, take your old number with you and pay very little - e.g. you don't need to pay for flatrate fees that you won't ever need and minutes, sms and data plans are much cheaper compared to contract prices. My bill is usually in the sub 10 EUR range each month.

    12. Re:Developer's Choice by Ash+Vince · · Score: 2

      You do not have to renew your contract but you do pay the same price (except Tmo) and if you switch carriers you appear to have to pay the same fees. Of course now, it makes less sense to switch carriers as the US GSM carriers are no loner really compatible.

      Do you guys in the US not have a massive prepay market? Over here in Britain there are more companies giving away prepay sims than you can shake a stick at. I have a spare prepay sim in case i ever lose my phone again. I can just throw a prepay sim in an old phone and use a different number for the 3 days it takes them to send me a new contract sim.

      If you use a prepay sim all the time you get a fair amount of free data and sms messages for every £10 you spend. The only reason people go with contract over here is so you get a decent phone thrown at you every year, other than that it is far cheaper to go with prepay even if you are a high volume caller unless you make all your calls during the day at peak rate. If you only use a phone at evenings at weekends them contract is very expensive compared to prepay.

      We also now have companies offering a cheap rolling contract where you only get a sim but use your old phone. These are usually half the monthly cost for same call volume and service, of a contract that gives you a phone and a sim and then locks you in to a minimum term.

      --
      I dont read /. to RTFA, I read /. to offend people in ignorance.
    13. Re:Developer's Choice by rec9140 · · Score: 3, Informative

      "Do you guys in the US not have a massive prepay market?"

      No.

      "prepay sims"

      SIMS are only used by ATT, TMobile and for iDEN on Nextel/Boost iDEN

      The PREDOMINANT carrier(s) in the US are CDMA, and not GSM or UMTS: Verizon Wireless is CDMA and does NOT use SIMS or RUIM (equivalent to SIM in CDMA) in 90% of its phones. Only "world edition" phones have a SIM. Matter of fact the TOP carriers in the US, nationwide (VZW) or regional (US Cellular, MetroPCS, Cricket) are ALL CDMA.. The two GSM and UMTS carriers rate at the bottom of the scale as last or second to last.

      And even with att and tmetro moving from to the other is not even remotely close to the experience in the UK, EU, and other regions. Carriers in the US make it as difficult as possible. This is true even on CDMA.. Sprint REFUSES to put CDMA phone on their system that was not originally on their system to start. So if you want a sprint CDMA phone from the used market you have to purchase one that was specifically on sprint.

      The model for cell phones in the US is VASTLY different than the rest of the world.

      --
      1311393600 - Back to Black
  3. Why? by imthesponge · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "It contains a call from Google to handset manufacturers to open up their phones to give users choice."

    What possible incentive would they have to do that? The vast majority of consumers already have all the choice they want.

    1. Re:Why? by Kilrah_il · · Score: 2

      They didn't sell much because of many other factors, including problems with the hardware, going exclusive with Sprint for the first 6 month, bad advertisements, etc. The software had gotten mostly praises from those who reviewed it.
      I think both of us are old enough to know there isn't always a good correlation between the quality of a product and its sales record (*ahem* Windows *ahem*).

      --
      Whenever in an argument, remember this.
  4. Their own bottom line... by Junta · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If you can put latest and greatest Android on an end-of-lifed handset they haven't gotten money for in two years, they get nothing.

    If they successfully lock things down so that you need to buy a *new* handset to get the snazzy new features. If most of the reason people get new things is for software, then the hardware vendor has their own interests in making sure their stuff comes along for the ride.

    --
    XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
  5. Not Really A Call To Openness by Bigjeff5 · · Score: 5, Informative

    More like a correction of Engadget's hysteria and a lamentation at the lack of openness.

    The gist of it is that Engadget claims Android's security is shit since you can root it so easily.

    The Android devs respond by saying you shouldn't call it "rooting" since the Nexus S was intended to allow users to install their own OS. To do that, you need to be able gain root access. In fact, they tell you how in the blog: fastboot oem unlock. That's it.

    Rooting a phone implies root access was not intended, and you must exploit a security flaw to gain access. If root access was intended from the beginning, how can running the command to do so possibly be considered exploiting a security flaw?

    To put it another way, is sudo a security flaw in Linux? That's basically what Engadget is saying, and the Android devs are saying that's stupid, and oh yeah phones should be open so rooting goes the way of the do-do bird.

    --
    Security is mostly a superstition... Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. - Helen Keller
  6. Application usage logs and restrictions by bartoku · · Score: 5, Insightful

    All applications are required to declare the permissions they use, ensuring the user is in control of the information they share.

    I want more than the application to declare what permission it uses.
    I want to be able to run an application that say wants access to my GPS coordinates, but I can say no you get fake GPS access.
    The same with internet access, phone directory access, and so on.

    I do not want to be restricted to all or nothing, and have to forgo an app all together over a potential security issue.
    The best example I have is the Bible app from LifeChurch.tv. I love the app, but for awhile it wanted access to my GPS coordinates.
    Why? God knows where I am already LifeChurch. But unlike the nagging iPhone version which I could deny location information every time I ran the app it was all or nothing, location information transmitted.

    Heck I want everything the damn apps do logged, if I allow them internet access I want to know what pages and logs on the packets sent.
    Then we can really avoid these naughty apps that are transmitting things, because the OS says hey this app is transmitting this user, and the user can say hells no.

    I do not ever want to install an anti-virus application to my phone. Never ever, I do not need them on my desktop, do not need them on my phone. Die McAfee and Norton, die!

    Just my two cents. Perhaps I should download the source and make my own build. But it would be much easier on me if a Google engineer did it.

  7. It's all about the "Gapps" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    First off, the people who are talking about "rooting" an open platform are morons. The rooting occurs when the carrier and phone manufacturer -- yes I'm talking to YOU, HTC-- put gobs of needless, expensive, and ultimately pointless security on top of stock AOSP.

    They want control. The EFF (did everyone donate this year?) helped affirm our rights to control over our own equipment, but the carriers and manufacturers are responding with more and more technical hurdles.

    These short-sighted obstacles cost them money in R&D, which is ultimately passed on to us, the customer, or absorbed by their stockholders. These technical measures (locked emmcs) are pointless, immoral, bad for business, and an entire subculture has emerged dedicated to sidestepping them.

    Google has some mixed motivations here, but one thing I can think Google might do about this is to license their Google apps (or "Gapps"-- Maps, GMail, etc.) to community firmware so that they can legitimately compete with the carriers in the market. The competition and choice would benefit the consumer (example: Gingerbread is already running on the T-Mobile G2 and Froyo is available only on other platforms through community roms not offered by the carrier, who has abandoned older phones.). Plus support for community roms would help Google reach those customers who are now "locked out" of the Google market.

    The downside might be more support headaches or returned bricked phones for the phone companies. But can't they look at that as a potential new market? Yeah, when you sell someone a computer and they trash it, it's a headache. A headache you can charge them to fix. Right now people brick their phones after trying to install a rom in the shadows and then return them. If phones were treated by carriers as the computers they ARE, it would be no different than someone trashing their DELL and needing Best-Buy or whomever to reinstall Windows. Or maybe they'd pay $10/hr in support.

    The point is-- if tomorrow people were locked out of their computers' operating system by the manufacturers or told what software they could run on their laptops by their ISPs, there would be revolt (I would hope). But we're slowly being conditioned to accept such control starting with smartphones, working up to tables...

    what's next?

  8. There's also a "technical" reason by VincenzoRomano · · Score: 2

    The operators say that misbehaving phones can disrupt their network. That could be true for a very large number of bad phones.
    The truth is that I don't know a out any "mod" touching the radio stuff.
    It's just FUD.

    --
    Maybe Computers will never be as intelligent as Humans.
    For sure they won't ever become so stupid. [VR-1988]
    1. Re:There's also a "technical" reason by vijayiyer · · Score: 4, Informative

      Jailbreaking (a.k.a. rooting) an iPhone doesn't modify the baseband. Only the unlocks do.

    2. Re:There's also a "technical" reason by jonbryce · · Score: 2

      Malware by definition is software that does something bad. Mal=bad, ware=software.
      Jailbreak software is hacking software in the traditional sense in that it does something outside the specification of the device. Malware can and often does use hacking techniques, but that doesn't mean that everything that uses hacking techniques is malware.

    3. Re:There's also a "technical" reason by cbope · · Score: 2

      All the more reason allow and encourage updating your phone. It's akin to running a pre-SP1 WinXP or similar directly connected to the net. If you are running an unpatched OS, whether it's your phone or your PC, the end result is the same. Your device will be owned. The security of your data and device are at risk if not kept up-to-date.

      I'm just glad this mobile phone catastrophe is a mostly-US thing. The US really needs to open up its mobile phone market and get some REAL competition started. Compared to the rest of the developed world it's still in the dark ages. Let's start with a list of things that most if not all EU states have in a fairly competitive mobile phone market: Number portability, got it. Device portability, got it. Unlocked phones, got it. Phones without contracts, got it. Pay-as-you-go SIM cards available at any kiosk, got it. Data plans that don't suck your bank account dry, got it. Reasonable (cheap) text message cost, got it.

      I read all the time about the US mobile market, and as an ex-pat living abroad for more than 10 years, I wonder why do you still accept it? It's light years behind the rest of the developed modern world. You have so much lock-in and control exerted by just a few monopolistic mobile operators across the whole US. I live in a country with a small population of only 5.2 million, and last time I checked we had at least double the number of operators compared to the US and real price competition. Sure, phones are going to cost more if you buy them without a contract and I'm not disputing that fact. But the fact is we can and it's easy. And I'm not talking about buying an "unlocked" phone from ebay from a dubious gray market reseller, I'm talking about walking into any mobile store in any local mall and making a "normal" purchase with a full warranty, support, etc. I can buy a SIM from any mobile operator (or the local kiosk) and pop it in my phone. It will work. Phones are not locked to the operator and doing so would go against anti-competitive laws here. Most of the "tricks" I read about by the US operators are simply illegal here. The operator would never be able to get away with these tricks here, they would be out of business, if not from lack of customers then the government would go after them for anti-competitive behavior.

      I really tire of reading about topics like this, the US should be leading by example instead of looking like a third world dictatorship (or more accurately an corporatocracy) that is behind the times. Seriously, this is the picture seen from outside the US, I know it hurts but it's the truth.

  9. Re:Why doesn't Google just make Android GPLv3? by Sancho · · Score: 2

    Android is based upon the Linux kernel, which is GPLv2. Though some GPL software says "version X or later", the kernel does not.