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California Rare-Earth Mine Reopens

burnin1965 writes in to let us know that the looming crisis in rare-earth materials (which we have discussed recently) has prompted Molycorp, the erstwhile operator of a California mine closed in 2002, to announce plans to reopen it. "With increasing prices on rare earth ore, tariffs raised by the Chinese government, and the threat of embargoes that would damage United States high-tech manufacturing Molycorp now has the needed incentive to reopen the California Mountain Pass mine. They will spend the capital needed to implement badly needed updates to environmental controls that will mitigate the radioactive waste water releases that plagued the mine in the past. Chinese imports in the 90s nearly halved ore prices and the California mine experienced multiple failures in environmental controls that resulted in the release of huge volumes of radioactive waste water. Updating the mine to address the environmental issues was not financially viable due to the cheap Chinese imports so it was closed in 2002." Within two years the mine could be producing 20% of the amount of rare earths we import from China.

244 comments

  1. Good! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Finally, someone bringing resources and manufacturing back to America!

    1. Re:Good! by matthewncohen · · Score: 3, Funny

      Finally, someone bringing radioactive waste water releases back to America!

    2. Re:Good! by mangu · · Score: 0

      I don't know where TFS got this mention of "radioactive waste water", it was not in TFA.

      However, what about it? The waste water contains what's left from refining the ore, all the radioactive components in the water were in the soil to begin with. What's the difference between letting the radioactive wastes in the ground and putting them back in the ground after you get the ore out?

    3. Re:Good! by frank_tudor · · Score: 1

      I am trying to bring a Rare Earths Elements Company online (I have two mineral resources right herre in the U.S. ....But sadly, I can't find funding to start operations.

    4. Re:Good! by spun · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Really? You are confused here? What is the difference between concentrating radioactive elements and running hundreds of thousands of gallons of water through them, and having tiny amounts of water percolate through the same elements widely dispersed in their natural state? You need help figuring that out, do you? Take off the blinders and stop apologizing for people who will gladly ruin your entire family's health and take no responsibility for it.

      This is basic, people, something we all should have learned no later than preschool: you make a mess, you clean it up.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    5. Re:Good! by Qzukk · · Score: 1

      What's the difference between letting the radioactive wastes in the ground and putting them back in the ground after you get the ore out?

      They weren't putting it back in the ground, they were pumping it 14 miles away to evaporative ponds, except for the 60-odd times the pipe broke over 14 years.

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    6. Re:Good! by paiute · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      I am trying to bring a Rare Earths Elements Company online (I have two mineral resources right herre in the U.S. ....But sadly, I can't find funding to start operations.

      Why should we trust someone who can't spell or punctuate a short post correctly to handle radioactive waste properly?

      --
      If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
    7. Re:Good! by spun · · Score: 3, Funny

      I am trying to bring a Rare Earths Elements Company online (I have two mineral resources right herre in the U.S. ....But sadly, I can't find funding to start operations.

      Wait a second, I call shenanigans. We gave all kinds of tax breaks to the rich, just so they would have money to invest in things like this. Are you trying to tell me the rich aren't investing in American businesses? Next you are going to tell me that rather than funding businesses here, they are investing it all in foreign corporations in countries with cheaper labor and no environmental laws.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    8. Re:Good! by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 1

      What's the difference between letting the radioactive wastes in the ground and putting them back in the ground after you get the ore out?

      You mean other than the fact that the relative concentrations of these radioactive wastes are many times higher afterwards than they were originally in the soil?

    9. Re:Good! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      DEAR MR. FRANK_TUDOR, MY NAME IS NIMBU-ADAMINABI, I AM THE SON OF THE LATE FORMER DIRECTOR OF RARE EARTH MINING, EXECUTIVE MBUDAH-ADAMINABI OF THE NIGERIA RARE EARTH MINING COMPANY. DUE TO POLITICAL REASONS, MY MINING COMPANY, ESTIMATED TO BE WORTH IN EXCESS OF 78 MILLION DOLLARS, CAN NO LONGER OPERATE IN COUNTRY AND IS IN NEED OF ASSISTANCE TO BE RELOCATED TO THE USA FOR START UP. WE ARE WILLING TO FUND STARTING OPERATIONS FOR YOUR COMPANY, BUT REQUIRE ASSISTANCE TO LIQUIDATE AND TRANSFER THE 78 MILLION DOLLARS IN ASSETS OUT OF THE COUNTRY. ALL I NEED FROM YOU FOR YOUR ASSISTANCE IS:

      1) YOUR BANK NAME
      2) ACCOUNT NAME
      3) ACCOUNT NUMBER
      4) BANK ADDRESS, TELEPHONE AND FAX NUMBERS TO ENABLE ME TO TRANSFER THE 78 MILLION DOLLARS INTO YOUR ACCOUNT.

      AS COMPENSATION FOR YOUR SERVICE, I AM OFFERING 20% OF THE ASSETS OF THE MINING COMPANY, I REALLY WANT TO INVEST IN YOUR COMPANY AS IT IS LOCATED IN A STABLE GOVERNMENT, SOCIAL, AND ECONOMICAL REGION. TO PROVE MY TRUSTWORTHINESS, I HAVE ATTACHED A COPY OF THE ASSET CERTIFICATE FROM THE BANK OF ADIJUBA IN NIGERIA WITH A LIST OF ALL COMPANY ASSETS. MY LATE FATHER CALLED ME TO HIS BEDSIDE BEFORE HIS CALL TO GLORY (R.I.P) THAT I SHOULD PRAY TO GOD FOR FIRST, BEFORE FINDING A PARTNER IN THE WONDERFUL COUNTRY OF USA. GOD GUIDED ME TO YOU AND HELPED ME AVOID EVIL MINDED AND GREEDY PEOPLE WHO MIGHT TAKE ADVANTAGE OF ME AND MY COMPANY.

      THANKS AND GOD BLESS.

      BEST REGARDS,

      NIMBU-ADAMINABI (NREMC)

    10. Re:Good! by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      What's the difference between letting the radioactive wastes in the ground and putting them back in the ground after you get the ore out?

      Leaving it in water lets it seep down into the water table and away from the site.

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    11. Re:Good! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They weren't putting it back in the ground, they were pumping it 14 miles away to evaporative ponds, except for the 60-odd times the pipe broke over 14 years .

      Oh, horrors. Such intractable problems! Shut down everything!

      I mean, fixing the pipe, that's not an option, because nobody's ever figured out how to run liquids through tubes anymore. Building a new pipe out of something a little more resistant to scale buildup? Naw, can't happen, there've been no developments in plastics or polymers in the past century. Run little scrubber robots down the pipe to clean it out more frequently? Of course not, robots don't exist either.

      If you'd prefer to get your rare earths from China, (where nobody cares about the environmental impacts) just say so. If you'd prefer to simply live without rare earths - and consequently, without the capacitors in your high-efficiency power supply, the magnets in your electric or hybrid vehicle motors, again, just say so. I drive an old internal-combustion-engine-powered vehicle myself.

      But don't try to pretend that engineering problems are intractable problems.

    12. Re:Good! by niftymitch · · Score: 0

      Golly... this mine is in the high desert. There is no
      such thing as hundreds of thousands of gallons of water....
      Any water used will be recycled....

      In this part of the desert folk drive 40 miles to the mail box.

      This is not to say that they can ignore environmental cautions
      and concerns but -- for goodness sake get some facts right.

      --
      Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.
    13. Re:Good! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The radioactive element that occurs in association with rare earths is thorium, it isn't even as slightly soluble as uranium. The naturally occurring isotope is Th-232, with a half-life of 14.05 billion years. For comparison, U-238 has a half-life of 4.47 billion years, and u-235 has one of 704 million years. Yes, that means the mine tailings are radioactive. Slightly. Less so than yellowcake. But regulations are regulations, and just saying the R-word and some people lose all common sense.

    14. Re:Good! by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Did you sleep through the part of EC101 where they talk about "externalities"? Or were you attending the "You can't make an omelette without killing some people" school of progress, where they skip that part entirely?

    15. Re:Good! by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 4, Informative

      Luckily, when you spill thorium-laced water over a large area of desert, it never gradually turns into wind-borne radioactive dust...

    16. Re:Good! by SnarfQuest · · Score: 1

      Why should we trust someone who can't spell or punctuate a short post correctly to handle radioactive waste properly?

      I think he must be buying it in a WOW auction. He'll probably do more damage there anyway.

      --
      Who would win this election: Andrew Weiner vs Andrew Weiner's weiner.
    17. Re:Good! by spun · · Score: 3, Informative

      The Mountain Pass rare earth mine uses froth floatation, a water intensive process. For goodness sake get some facts right. Even in the high desert, we have these things known as "pipes."

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    18. Re:Good! by burnin1965 · · Score: 1

      Likely took the alternate, RP101 (Rape & Pillage 101); This beginning course in self destructive economics will provide you with the foundation of modern day slash & burn or salt & till economics. Prerequisites include RJ101 (Religious Justification), IC101 (Inhibiting your Conscience), and RB101 (Robber Barons)

    19. Re:Good! by darrad · · Score: 1

      Your statement leads me to believe that your are OK with radioactive waste water releases as long as they are not in America. Since you do not seem to indicate that you are against the uses of rare earth.

    20. Re:Good! by burnin1965 · · Score: 1

      It is not that hard to research the facts...

      Mountain Pass Mine Environmental Impact

      In the 1980s, the company began piping wastewater as far as 14 miles to evaporation ponds ... This pipeline repeatedly ruptured during cleaning operations ... federal investigation later found that some 60 spills—some unreported—occurred between 1984 and 1998 ... about 600,000 gallons of radioactive and other hazardous waste flowed onto the desert floor

    21. Re:Good! by Khyber · · Score: 1

      "Golly... this mine is in the high desert. There is no
      such thing as hundreds of thousands of gallons of water...."

      I have to assume you don't live in California. I'm an hour away from the high desert, and the WHOLE REGION has just had two weeks straight record rainfalls that beat anything in the past decade.

      TRY MILLIONS OF GALLONS OF WATER, n00b.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    22. Re:Good! by burnin1965 · · Score: 1

      Ssssshhh, you'll burst the bubble that is keeping the stupidity contained to themselves.

    23. Re:Good! by spun · · Score: 2

      I call it "The Tragedy of the Privates." There is no incentive for a private owner to manage a resource sustainably when they can simply use their profits to buy another resource to exploit. Democratically manged resources will be managed sustainably, as everyone has an incentive to leave the resource usable by their children, and no one can withdraw all the profits and move on.

      The better known "Tragedy of the Commons" is a fairly useless parable, as it compares privately owned resources with unmanaged resources, as opposed to comparing them with democratically managed resources.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    24. Re:Good! by choko · · Score: 1

      I was unaware that the two skills are somehow related. Some of the most "powerful" people in the world have terrible grammar and punctuation skills.

    25. Re:Good! by matthewncohen · · Score: 2

      People jump to a lot of conclusions on the internet.

    26. Re:Good! by spun · · Score: 2

      No one was claiming these were engineering problems. The problem is obviously not an engineering one, it is a profit motive problem. The owners would rather have someone else pay for the impact they cause. Even after numerous warnings, they refused to fix things. They were shut down as punishment, because they refused to pay for their mistakes the honest and easy way, they had to pay for their mistakes the hard way. You see, that is what civilized countries do to people who profit off of harming others: we stop them.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    27. Re:Good! by spun · · Score: 1

      Your statement leads me to believe one of two things: you are either stupid or dishonest. No one said they are okay with pollution in China. You present a false dichotomy: either accept pollution, or do not use rare earths. What about, pay the full cost of extracting using rare earths in an environmental fashion? Personally, I would be fine paying a little more if that is what things really cost. I'm not comfortable making other people pay for the things I use, yet that is what happens with rare earths. I get them for cheap, while other people get sick and die. I'd rather pay more and have less of the getting sick and dying thing.

      So, were you deliberately ignoring the obvious third choice, "Pay the full cost for what you use rather than harming others and refusing to pay for it" and are therefore dishonest? Or could you really not see that choice, and are therefore stupid?

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    28. Re:Good! by Qzukk · · Score: 2

      But don't try to pretend that engineering problems are intractable problems.

      Don't try to pretend that capitalism problems are engineering problems. Replacing a 14 mile pipe costs money. Money you don't have if some company in China that just dumps the waste in the nearest ditch is undercutting you, but which might become available when the Chinese government tells their company to stop competing with you (by preventing it from exporting out of China).

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    29. Re:Good! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except, of course, when we don't.

    30. Re:Good! by spun · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Who said we were a civilized country anymore? We're being run by a band of brigands intent on looting and pillaging rather than inventing and building, just like a third world banana republic. We ship raw materials and import finished goods, just like a banana republic. We lack any national health care system, when every other civilized nation has one. We execute people. We have more people in prison, per capita, than any other developed nation. We have a higher infant mortality rate than other developed countries. In all ways, we are becoming an uncivilized nation, and I didn't even mention reality television.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    31. Re:Good! by Undead+Waffle · · Score: 1

      There is nothing tragic about my privates.

    32. Re:Good! by burnin1965 · · Score: 0

      Hmmmm. I don't give a fuck.

      Move to China, their policies seem to suit you.

    33. Re:Good! by Dishevel · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Environmental whack jobs and union give me mine asshole are 100% responsible for shipping all the manufacturing out of what used to be a great country. We can't build Coal, or Nuclear power plants. Because of enviro pussies that talk shit about SUV drivers while the put around in their Toyota Prius that dose more enviromental damage than 10 SUVs. We can't make anything and we are not allowed to become more efficient unless we pay the same number of workers more money to create less. Instead of telling me to move. Why don't all the Enviro fucktards get out while there is still some greatness left here. Go to Europe.

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    34. Re:Good! by haruchai · · Score: 1

      And me without mod points. +2 to you.

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    35. Re:Good! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "Are you trying to tell me the rich aren't investing in American businesses?"

      What businesses? There are almost none left.

    36. Re:Good! by haruchai · · Score: 1

      I'm amazed at how hard environmentalists and unions (back in their early days) had to fight against robber barons and corporate scoundrels in the US - a country that prides itself on its Christian faith. They are good and safe ways to do most things but it does drive the cost up. But, in the slightly longer run, it pays for itself in what does NOT have to be done - fewer expensive cleanups, less spent on health coverage, etc.

      I suspect that your attack on the Prius is due to a long-refuted article. You can find links to the various counterpoints at
      answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080115163841AAaTOdb

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    37. Re:Good! by haruchai · · Score: 1

      I see you got modded Troll for telling the truth.
      That'll teach you to knock reality TV ;-)

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    38. Re:Good! by haruchai · · Score: 1

      Don't judge all the world's powerful people by a few idiots. Most of them, even the evil bastards, are very well educated

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    39. Re:Good! by burnin1965 · · Score: 1

      shipping all the manufacturing out of what used to be a great country

      Quit being a whiny pussy and move. Each Foxconn suicide is just one more opportunity for you.

      Stop being a cry baby and move. The Chinese share your 'screw the environment, profits rule' and 'screw human beings, profits rule' mentality.

      Just get it over with and move your ideology to China and your suffering under environmental regulation will be over, you will be in a blissful heaven of pathetic wages, poisoned rivers and pollution choked skies, Your fantasy world come true.

      There is no reason to piss and moan endlessly about the rest of the populace who want nothing to do with your crap, your vision of a perfect world is already practised in China, just move already.

    40. Re:Good! by spun · · Score: 2

      I think that the moderators took "Run by a band of brigands" as an indictment of their favorite political group, when I mean it to apply to all political groups equally.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    41. Re:Good! by ohiovr · · Score: 1

      NIMBY STFO

    42. Re:Good! by moonbender · · Score: 1

      I was unaware that the two attributes are somehow related. Some of the most "powerful" people in the world are not very trustworthy.

      --
      Switch back to Slashdot's D1 system.
    43. Re:Good! by burnin1965 · · Score: 1
    44. Re:Good! by darrad · · Score: 1

      The original poster did not present options, only a sarcastic statement. Which prompted my reply. Apparently, you are either stupid or dishonest for missing the third option of sarcasm.

    45. Re:Good! by spun · · Score: 1

      First poster said "Finally, someone bringing radioactive waste water releases back to America!" which is a sarcastic statement, sure. But so what? Is radioactive waste water release NOT a problem?

      You sarcastically respond by assuming that, instead of criticizing pollution, the original poster must be FOR pollution in China, or AGAINST rare earth, because, as EVERYONE knows, those are the only two options.

      I pointed out that that is not the case, the original poster may in fact have been against ANY pollution. Just because they did not mention the obvious solution of "Mine rare earths without polluting" does not make that solution any less obvious to most of us.

      In closing, please try to pick a more original defense than "I was just joking!"

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    46. Re:Good! by darrad · · Score: 1

      It was not intended as a defense, merely an explanation of the reason for my post. I cannot help it if you feel the need to over react.

    47. Re:Good! by spun · · Score: 2

      I'm not overreacting, I'm always this much of a bastard.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    48. Re:Good! by darrad · · Score: 2

      Well I guess we can agree on something...

    49. Re:Good! by spun · · Score: 1

      Sorry, it sounded like you were trying a fairly standard line of argumentation I have heard over and over again, the false dichotomy of "If you oppose pollution, you oppose progress." If that was not what you were trying to do, then take this as a piece of constructive criticism, you appeared to be offering a false dichotomy that paints everyone concerned about pollution as Luddites. I'm glad that wasn't what you were trying to do, as I think we can both agree, that would be petty and illogical.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    50. Re:Good! by haruchai · · Score: 1

      Looks like a high school friend of mine may have been right when he said all the sane people are in the asylums and the nutcases are running loose.

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    51. Re:Good! by Javajunk · · Score: 1

      Fantastic. If you'd written that in a slightly more disjointed way it would pass as the real deal.

      --
      "It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with potatoes." Douglas Adams
    52. Re:Good! by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      per capita? We imprison more people than China period.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    53. Re:Good! by darrad · · Score: 1

      Often times intent is lost when posting. The original post struck me as one that cries about pollution but still continues to use the products. Very much a NIMBY attitude, but they have no problem with someone else's yard. That may not be what was intended, but that is the way it sounds.

      I am all for responsibility in companies and individuals. However, I am not for causes, movements, etc. Most of these are composed of mindless sheep who oppose anything that they think harms the cute cuddliness of the moment.

      Find a clean responsible way to extract resources and present the product to the market in a fair manner where profit can be made, reinvestment can occur and innovation can happen.

      Captain Planet did a huge disservice to a generation. Too many people see companies and corporations as evil for no other reason than they fact that they are companies or corporations. Some are good, some are bad, but that can be said of anything. Judge the company or corporation by their actions, just as you should with people.

    54. Re:Good! by dryeo · · Score: 1

      The majority of Americans are not San Fransisco based Apple Fags. The majority of Politicians though seem to be.

      And you're better because you want to have sex with old dead prophets?

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    55. Re:Good! by shentino · · Score: 1

      Yeah.

      In China you don't go to jail, you just get executed.

    56. Re:Good! by sumdumass · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Actually, it is a bit of an engineering problem too.

      You see, it's not that the pipes couldn't be upgraded, it's that if the pipes were in place before regulations changed, then upgrading or doing anything besides bringing them back to whatever the grandfathered spec is, could trigger a crap load of other requirements to be met without touching the pipes too.

      This is particularly problematic for electrical generations facilities. An attempt to put misters in the exhaust plumes of one coal burning facility to catch more fly-ash and introduce some reagent in the process supposedly to make the exhaust cleaner ended up being sidelined because they would have been forced to re-engineer the entire plant to meet 2003 regulations when the plant was built in 1955. Since then, there has been approval to use plain water to catch fly-ash but they couldn't use any chemicals without losing their grandfather status on the regulation.

      So fixing things back to the way they were instead of fixing things to be better seems to be the way to avoid unnecessary costs in this regulation swapping world.

      And yes, that would be an unnecessary cost. If the pollution wasn't a problem when the plant was built and put into operation, then even though it's seen as a problem today, shouldn't effect that operation.

    57. Re:Good! by sourcerror · · Score: 1

      Since when is China a developed nation?

    58. Re:Good! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We have more people in prison, per capita, than any other developed nation.

      Developed? per capita? You don't need either of those qualifiers. No matter how you measure it we have more people in prison than any other nation in the world either per capita or as a total number. Historically, the only times there have been more people in prison has been during times of war and 'cleansings' such as the Great Purge in Stalinist Russia.

      A number of Caribbean islands serve a key roll in the drug trade. They have really high incarceration rates but even these small outliers have lower incarceration rates than the United States.

    59. Re:Good! by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      fine; pick any other country. We still jail more people than them.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    60. Re:Good! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I'm not overreacting, I'm always this much of a bastard."

      You forgot stupid, stupid.

    61. Re:Good! by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 1

      GP didn't say don't do it, GP said if you make a mess clean it up. But we see time and time again that corporations cut the cleaning up corner just about every time. A corporation that wants to be responsible can't compete since they do foot the bill for the clean up, and finally the general public will still buy the cheapest item no matter how bad the corporations are.

      Bottom line. Most people don't care as long as it affects someone else. That is not progress. That is short sighted.

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    62. Re:Good! by GrumblyStuff · · Score: 1

      Wow. How did that slip by the caps filter?

    63. Re:Good! by Rayonic · · Score: 1

      FYI, infant mortality rate comparisons are mostly meaningless. Everyone has their own standards when deciding if an infant is "stillborn" or not. Generally, if the baby is in a condition that they can't treat at all, it isn't counted. That's what the U.S.'s rate is comparatively high -- they try to save more infants.

      http://health.usnews.com/usnews/health/articles/060924/2healy.htm

    64. Re:Good! by cpricejones · · Score: 1

      Well, I'm a graduate student, and I own some of Molycorp (MCP). I bought in at 29.20, and look where it is now ... it looks like a hell of an investment to me. It's not just the rich who can invest in these things.

    65. Re:Good! by Dishevel · · Score: 1

      Cool. So you have decided that with zero evidence to support your position that I am a religious person. Just because I share conservative fiscal views with the right dose not make me a religious person. I know that the left loves to tell me that all points of view are the same. That all people are the same. Not true. Some people are fucking stupid. Some people take no responsibility for themselves and want the government to do it for them. There are even a few fucking idiots out there that accuse people of having certain beliefs with out any evidence.

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    66. Re:Good! by spun · · Score: 1

      That article is blatant pro-America propaganda, and it cites no actual studies. It's complete bullshit.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    67. Re:Good! by spun · · Score: 1

      Actually, grandfather clauses don't work like that, despite what anti-government wing nuts like to claim. Citations or shut up.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    68. Re:Good! by spun · · Score: 1

      Corporations are evil by design. They cause huge moral hazards by their very structure of limited liability. It creates a diffusion of responsibility that makes it very easy for people to make very bad, very harmful decisions without having to think too hard about the consequences. We have allowed corporations to amass too much power and control over our society. As major centers of power, corporations attract all the high functioning sociopaths. They are evil, through and through.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    69. Re:Good! by QuantumBeep · · Score: 1

      No. You can't wander into a discussion and demand the participants give citations for you.

      Why don't you provide some counter-citations instead?

    70. Re:Good! by spun · · Score: 1

      I'm telling you, anything presented with no evidence can be dismissed without evidence, and I can wander into any fucking discussion I want and demand citations. If you can't prove what you are saying, why bother saying it? Maybe that shit flies where you come from, but here at Slashdot, we demand proof of wild accusations. And one final question, who the fuck are you to wander into this thread and tell me what I can and can't do? No one, that's who. Your opinion doesn't matter, and this thread is yesterday's news, it is only the wingnuts like you still commenting.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    71. Re:Good! by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      How do they work then? Because what I am describing is reality. So show me how they do work.

      And Yes, I am speaking from personal experience when I said a power plant in Ohio had to get a special permit to introduce the fly-ash containment and couldn't touch the reagents because the EPA would have requires a complete redesign of the stack and facility in order to comply with newer emissions regulations that would be forced on them. I was a member of the hazmat response team and we were in on most of these things as it pertained to our jobs at the plants.

    72. Re:Good! by spun · · Score: 1

      Here is a good paper on the subject. Generally, only modifications that increase pollution void the grandfather clause.

      https://www.law.northwestern.edu/lawreview/v101/n4/1677/LR101n4Nash.pdf

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    73. Re:Good! by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Yawn.. Did you even read your paper?

      It specifically talks about modifications pertaining to the various defined routine maintenance verses life extension repairs. It even cites Wisconsin Electric Power Company v.
      Reilly (WEPCO) in reference to it. It then goes on to show that in the years after WEPCO, the EPA applied the courts four factor test to several industries and determined that the repair and maintenance performed before now qualified as Major modifications require a new site performance review.

      And the cases you mentioned about the increased emissions, it's not only increased emissions, it's increased potential for emissions. In other words, if you expand or extend the life of a grandfathered facility, then it needs to undergo the current regulation reviews and meet the current standards. In the case of expanding, only the new portions would need to be under the new regulation unless it's interconnected to the old grandfathered portion in which it all goes.

      This is all listed quite clearly and plainly in your article.

    74. Re:Good! by spun · · Score: 1

      Yes, and that is as it should be. Grandfather clauses apply to unmodified facilities, if you modify it you need to bring it up to code.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    75. Re:Good! by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Wow.. That's what I originally said..

    76. Re:Good! by kaatochacha · · Score: 1

      however,.... Should one completely ignore ALL business considerations, then all businesses will do just that: move to China. Then, a certain amount of years from now, the Chinese companies ( read government) that have replaced these businesses will simply move back here and dictate that you take all your environmental considerations and stuff them. Because they will hold the money.

    77. Re:Good! by darrad · · Score: 1

      Have you ever worked for a corporation? They are no different from any other group of people working together for a common cause. You may not agree with the cause, but that does not change the fact.

      Corporations are not entities, they do not live, there is not one living organism that you can identify as a corporation. Therefore a corporation cannot make decisions.

      People are entities, they do live and make decisions. Any action of a group is only a result of the individuals in the group. Be it a collective, a commune, a family or a corporation. If the members of the corporation decide to make bad decisions, that this the fault of the members.

      If, as you say, all the high functioning sociapaths gravitate to corporations, is that the fault of the corporation, or is it the fault of the society that breeds the sociopath?

    78. Re:Good! by niftymitch · · Score: 0

      Yes sir. In two weeks the desert
      has seen rain that qualifies as a record.

      Millions of gallons -- does qualify as a record.
      rain fall in the desert is a funny thing.
      Some years you get some and most years nothing..

      One thing that is important is how easy it
      is to detect a leak if Thorium or
      Radium is contained in the material.
      Compare and contrast one gram of Thorium and one gram of lead (or As)
      in the context of detection and environmental impact.

      What we in the world must understand is that
      our spinning disks spin on and seek with rare
      earth magnets. Yes, processing material like Thorium and Radium should be sequestered but
      not vilified. This is not a reactor making isotopes.

      --
      Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.
    79. Re:Good! by niftymitch · · Score: 0

      The Mountain Pass rare earth mine uses froth floatation, a water intensive process. For goodness sake get some facts right. Even in the high desert, we have these things known as "pipes."

      Yes pipes and recycling.
      When I was at the mine in the '60s
      they were water constrained.

      Time to stop before we begin to sound like
      economists and Obama.

      --
      Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.
    80. Re:Good! by spun · · Score: 1

      Society has very little control over how many sociopaths it breed, because they are bred, not made. Every society has around the same amount.

      Actions of individuals are influenced by their setting. Different settings prompt different actions. Corporations create a moral hazard, as I said, due to their structure. They diffuse responsibility. They are also authoritarian, and can prompt the same sorts of behaviors that were seen in the Milgram experiments.

      People do not have one nature. They have many different faces that they put on or take off as circumstances dictate. A corporation is structured differently from other types of groups, and creates different types of behaviors in its members.

      While I agree that any action of a group is only the result of the individuals, the difference between a group and an individual is that in a group, the interactions of the individuals creates a dynamic that is not present in a single individual.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    81. Re:Good! by burnin1965 · · Score: 1

      The comment about religion was not for you. The slashdot comment system seems to be cracking under pressure.

      That comment was in response to haruchai who seemed to be suggest that people were not following Christianity.

  2. BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

    Barbara Boxer will shut that down. This is California you fuckers! No mining allowed. Oh, and we've decided that Spanish will now be the official primary language of the state.

    1. Re:BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I hear that one of those "safety measures" is a substantial donation to Ms boxers campaign fund...

  3. better then buying for mines where works make $0.5 by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 0

    better then buying for mines where works make $0.50 hour with no little safely and very long over time.

  4. so one thing i don't get... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If I'm in the market for rare earth metals, why would I buy from this US source?

    It seems like the factors that drove them out in the first place still exist, no? They still have environmental regulations to deal with that the Chinese suppliers don't, they'll still have far higher labour costs than their Chinese competitors, and so on. So if China wants to drive the price back down and run them out of business, they can do so.

    1. Re:so one thing i don't get... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      China is raising the prices, not lowering them.

    2. Re:so one thing i don't get... by spun · · Score: 1

      As we run out of oil, transportation costs will only go up. World wide demand for rare earths is rising, at the same time supply is dwindling. Previously, it was just not financially feasible to mine rare earths in environmentally friendly ways. The true costs were externalized. Mine owners got rich at the cost of other people's health. But we have gotten better at doing things in safe, clean ways now. So it looks like we are at the intersection of rising prices and demand for rare earth, and declining costs of environmental technologies.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    3. Re:so one thing i don't get... by careysub · · Score: 2

      If I'm in the market for rare earth metals, why would I buy from this US source?

      It seems like the factors that drove them out in the first place still exist, no? They still have environmental regulations to deal with that the Chinese suppliers don't, they'll still have far higher labour costs than their Chinese competitors, and so on. So if China wants to drive the price back down and run them out of business, they can do so.

      Shortly after acquiring their monopoly on rare earth supply China began demonstrating to the world how monopoly power can be used - raising prices at will, using supply as an economic/political weapon, etc. Companies and nations affected by these tactics (which are most users of rare earths outside of China) are not amused and will be willing to pay premiums for a reliable supply at predictable prices. Expect to see companies hedging their bets by entering long term contracts with MolyCorp even if they also continue to buy from China.

      --
      Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj
    4. Re:so one thing i don't get... by interkin3tic · · Score: 2

      If I'm in the market for rare earth metals, why would I buy from this US source?

      Illiterate troll is illiterate. From the first line of the summary: "With increasing prices on rare earth ore, tariffs raised by the Chinese government, and the threat of embargoes that would damage United States high-tech manufacturing..."

      So if China wants to drive the price back down and run them out of business, they can do so.

      The point of the embargo would be to threaten the US with. "Don't push us on human rights / Taiwan / copyright bullshit / economy stuff / national pride / corporate stuff or we'll stop selling you your precious metals." If we can credibly respond with "Fine, we'll just dig up our own in our backyard," that makes the threat pointless. We could go back and forth with it, China says we won't sell, we start digging, china sells, we stop digging, china stops selling etc, but that's not really in anyone's interests to stress the market like that, you'd just be introducing chaos to a big economic sector.

      Whether or not the right actors realize that and are mature enough to deal with the problems rather than playing games with billions of dollars is one thing, but assuming the Chinese diplomats and government isn't completely bullheaded about it, they'll either back off from threatening the embargo once they see it won't be that big of a deal for us, the US will the the mature one and not make too big a fuss out of too many issues (ideally focusing on human rights rather than unimportant corporate/copyright issues, though that's doubtful), or both will compromise.

    5. Re:so one thing i don't get... by burnin1965 · · Score: 1

      Why is it that people like you don't move to China to live and work in their factories?

    6. Re:so one thing i don't get... by istartedi · · Score: 1

      Because it's a commodity. As long as the cost of production is less than the market price, you will buy from them. The labor and environmental regulations will affect their profit margin. As the purchaser of a commodity, you don't care about that.

      This is true for any fungible commodity. When you buy gold, you don't care if it cost $500/oz or $1000/oz for a particular miner to extract. You only care that it costs $1400/oz.

      --
      For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
    7. Re:so one thing i don't get... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry to be the grammar nazi but it is "intents and purposes". I used to make that same mistake all the time.

    8. Re:so one thing i don't get... by PieSquared · · Score: 1

      You'd buy from it because it was cheaper. The technology to keep the mine running in 2002 was too expensive to keep up with China's prices, but since then the price for the technology has gone down and China's prices (for export, at least) have gone up. Now they think they can be cheaper then China even with CA's labor and environment laws.

      But more then that, the China threatened to cut off our supply of rare earth metals, and because they are used in many military applications this really is a national security issue. If I were an investor, I'd bet my money that even if China drops its tariffs back down, the US government will either tax foreign rare earth metals or subsidize their production stateside. Especially if someone donates to the right campaigns.

      --
      Does a line appended to your comment give your post meaning in and of itself, or only in relation to those without?
  5. So you want to sell your nation away by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 1

    So you want to sell your nation away people like you should go to a re education camp!

  6. No! Totally wrong approach by arcite · · Score: 2, Funny

    The more we mine them, the less rare they will be. Doesn't this defeat the purpose? .... ;)

    1. Re:No! Totally wrong approach by Palmsie · · Score: 3, Informative

      Rare earth materials are actually quite common, despite their name. Some of them are actually more common than lead or nitrogen.

      --
      Carl Sagan quotes get you an automatic +5 on all posts.
    2. Re:No! Totally wrong approach by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      I've always preferred my Earth Material medium-rare.

    3. Re:No! Totally wrong approach by jensend · · Score: 1, Redundant

      No. The only way to make rare earths less rare is to make more earths, duh. Among other things, the cost of shipping a whole factory-built planet to the nearest Sol-like stars and the loud-mouthed protests of tree-huggers whining about resource depletion (jeez, it's not like anybody else was USING every little yottagram of that feldspar anyway) tend to discourage this.

      On a side note: at least the FedEx guy could be a little more POLITE in telling me they don't ship to Tau Ceti. Sheesh. And just FYI, the USPS flat-rate boxes top out at a pathetic 1.3E-11 km^3.

    4. Re:No! Totally wrong approach by demonbug · · Score: 1

      The more we mine them, the less rare they will be. Doesn't this defeat the purpose? .... ;)

      Not if we don't overcook them.

    5. Re:No! Totally wrong approach by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They are common trace metals like gold is very common in soil and water. The difference is the geological processes haven't concentrated them like gold, copper and iron have. You've got to process tons of ore to get just a few ounces or even grams of the elements. That's where they become expensive.

    6. Re:No! Totally wrong approach by haruchai · · Score: 1

      Lead, perhaps but Nitrogen? It's 80% of the atmosphere. That would be one huge pile of rare earth.

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    7. Re:No! Totally wrong approach by lyml · · Score: 1

      mass of athmosphere = 5*10^18 kg Nitrogen in atmosphere = 80% by volume
      Oxygen in atmosphere = 20% by volume
      Atomic mass of N2 = 28 u
      Atomic mass of O2 = 36 u
      mass of Nitrogen in atmosphere = (28*4)/(28*4+36)*5*10^18 = 3.8*10^18 kg
      Earth mass = 6*10^24 kg

      Amount of Earth mass that is Nitrogen in atmosphere = 3.8*10^18/(6*10^24) = 0.6 ppm

      That means anything that is more common than 0.6 ppm of the earth would be more common than the nitrogen (in the atmosphere at least, I have no idea how common nitrogen is in the earth).

    8. Re:No! Totally wrong approach by haruchai · · Score: 1

      I think we're both wrong in our calculations. For one, mineral / element abundance is calculated for the Earth's crust but you're using the weight of the entire planet so your ppm figures for Nitrogen are very low.

      From what I've found, N2 in the crust is only in trace amounts but it's found in 0.5 ppm in seawater.
      I can't find numbers for mass of crust, however but I did find that it's volume is only 1% of planetary total.

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    9. Re:No! Totally wrong approach by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then just leave them in the earth for a (m|b|tr)illion more years.

  7. China Is Threatening to Ban Exports by eldavojohn · · Score: 0

    To the US and Japan. And I've heard all sorts of speculation why but I'll leave that up to the reader.

    --
    My work here is dung.
  8. They can't do this! by Yaos · · Score: 1

    Don't you guys read articles and look at infographics? All technology and infrastructure instantly hits a standstill the second those articles and infographics are released. By opening this mine they are destroying the fragile web of stupidity created by the idiots that make those things. Just think, somebody may even try to create technologies that use less rare-earth minerals!

  9. Molycorp's production is going straight to Japan by SuperBanana · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Despite the story's GO AMERICA slant, a lot of material is going straight to Japan, where most of it is consumed in the first place. Like to Hitachi: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6BK5PL20101221

    Oh look. They also signed deals with Sumitomo and Mitsubishi: http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/business/T101219002181.htm

    They got huge piles of cash from Sumitomo, Mitsubishi, and Hitachi...which is why it's hilarious to hear the CEO of Molycorp waving American flags in various quotes. Oh, and Molycorp's stock has shot up since their IPO in July: http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-07-28/molycorp-s-ipo-aims-at-chinese-grip-on-smart-bombs.html

    Also, how interesting that the EPA announces cleanup plan of Molycorp site just a few days ago: http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=12460111

    The EPA said contaminated material from the Molycorp site includes about 328 million tons of acid-generating waste rock, more than 100 million tons of tailings and acid-rock drainage at the mine and seepage at the tailings facility.

    Anyone want to place bets on whether or not the US government will press environmental regulations on Molycorp this time, now that national security interests are involved?

  10. Re:Molycorp's production is going straight to Japa by Spoke · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Uh, how is exporting raw materials (many of which will end up in electronics back on our shores) bad for America?

    Sure, it would be better if those materials were used in local manufacturing facilities, but opening a source of those raw materials will make it more financially viable to do so.

  11. Re:better then buying for mines where works make $ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    better then buying for mines where works make $0.50 hour with no little safely and very long over time.

    Soooo, where will the workers that were working in the unsafe mine go? To the next best alternative...a mine that pays even less and/or even more unsafe!

  12. Summary was TLDR, but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Getting Rare Earth back together to do a gig in California is an event worth celebrating.

  13. Legitimate question: by Regnad2k7 · · Score: 0
    1. Re:Legitimate question: by PatPending · · Score: 1

      It looks like they are standing in one of the evaporator ponds for the radioactive waste.

      --
      What one fool can do, another can. (Ancient Simian Proverb)
    2. Re:Legitimate question: by Regnad2k7 · · Score: 0

      prolly should have been

  14. the real reason by ILuvRamen · · Score: 1, Funny

    I have a feeling that they're banking on China getting mad that the US will have a significant mine. If they say "Oh, you want to make your own? Fine, BANHAMMER!" and stop all rare earth exports, that mine will turn into the sole source for the US and they can charge whatever they want. If they start getting materials and China doesn't do anything different, the US company still has to compete with China's current prices which aren't THAT high right now. It's all just theoretical that China could skyrocket the prices if they wanted to. So since they won't make much money otherwise, they definitely have to be speculating that China will try to retaliate and it will work in their favor.

    --
    Google's Super Secret Search Algorithm: SELECT @search_results FROM internet WHERE @search_results = 'good'
    1. Re:the real reason by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      I don't think that I'd actually want to find out the hard way; but it would actually be quite interesting to know how absolute a banhammer the Chinese government could wield...

      Over the mines themselves, a fairly limited number of sites, the state could probably just use the PLA if it came to that(and hope that half the officer corps isn't supplementing their pensions by doing a little smuggling on the side)...

      Unless they felt like shutting down domestic manufacturing of a huge number of products, though, which would run counter to their current 'aggressive-industrialization-with-mercantilist-tendencies' policies, they would have to permit rare-earth movement to domestic manufacturers all over the place. From there, either they would have to grow a big pile of domestic demand, or continue to permit export of finished products (at least to friendly client states, if not to specific rivals). Some of their friendly client states are a bit... porous... so re-export from there would seem likely.

      Prices would, obviously, be higher than under a like-shit-through-a-goose export policy; but it would be pretty hard to wall of supplies entirely without crashing domestic manufacturers in a number of sectors, risking substantial labor unrest, etc...

    2. Re:the real reason by Khyber · · Score: 1

      "but it would actually be quite interesting to know how absolute a banhammer the Chinese government could wield..."

      None at all. We have these things called treaties, and these other things called alliances.

      You do realize we're right on the precipice of WWIII, right?

      It's going to be corporations and the governments they control versus the people of the world.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    3. Re:the real reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I doubt it. The Chinese government is corrupt, greedy, nationalistic and oppressive, but that doesn't make them stupid. They know that starting a trade/resource war with their largest market (and biggest debtor) is a terrible idea. They can and will mess with the ratios/tariffs to cause ruckus and get concessions, but them pulling that sort of extreme act is like them denying us use of a bottle of bleach by drinking the contents themselves.

  15. Re:Molycorp's production is going straight to Japa by demonbug · · Score: 1

    Anyone want to place bets on whether or not the US government will press environmental regulations on Molycorp this time, now that national security interests are involved?

    Not really; but if they have issues and US EPA won't go after them, you can be sure Cal EPA will.

    Of course, then you would just have a bunch of right-wing bloggers screaming, "Why does California hate America???" but that isn't exactly new.

  16. Wonder about the pricing by bl8n8r · · Score: 1

    They probably closed the US operation because China could manufacture it cheaper.  Kinda puts the California company in a position to exploit the market.

    --
    boycott slashdot February 10th - 17th check out: altSlashdot.org
  17. Bad by Dan+East · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I think the US should sit on this resource for now. China only has 37% of the world's proven reserves of rare-earth minerals, but they are fulfilling 97% of the world's demand. Let them burn through their easily harvested natural supplies, so a decade from now they will be reliant on other countries for a critical resource. This could provide one of the few checks and balances for dealing with China as a communist super-power.

    --
    Better known as 318230.
    1. Re:Bad by confused+one · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Because it's going to take nearly a decade (ok, 12/ a decade minimum) to spin up their operations. If they start now, they'll be ready when the Chinese market collapses.

    2. Re:Bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hmm... do you not think that some western mining companies, the US government, etc. would not all work together to set up mines and basic refineries so that the bulk of the processing still ends up being finished into usable product in China?

      China's arguments sound like they would be assailable in the WTO courts, but... somehow, I don't think most of the western governments would be willing to push the issue. The US, especially. (Unless Sarah Palin or some other tea-bagger goes all cowboy on this after 2012, presuming Pres. Obama isn't reelected in 2 years). Now there is a happy thought...

    3. Re:Bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... they'll be ready when the Chinese market collapses.

      Bwahahahahahaaaaa. Like the Chinese give a fuck about the market. It serves their purpose now, because they are able to prop up the American market and wait for teh EU to implode, but they'll back out (and revert to Marxist economics) long before the "economy" can have any significant effect on their way of life. Their participation serves a purpose (industrialization), but once they are up to speed, it will be nothing more than a tool with limited use. Your economy, OTOH, means significantly more to you.

    4. Re:Bad by rrohbeck · · Score: 2

      China is going to stop burning through anything soon because they're experiencing peak coal right now. The exponential growth we've seen over the last couple of years (>10% per year) is going to hit a wall real soon. That's going to be interesting.

    5. Re:Bad by fatp · · Score: 1

      To be precise, the US's strategy isn't 'Let them burn through their easily harvested natural supplies...'. Instead it is 'Let's rob their natural supplies...'.

    6. Re:Bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      wow, right in the popper of Mr USAfuckyeah. They don't even realize how they're getting owned. lulz

    7. Re:Bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, I'm pretty sure the USA are conscious of the path they've chosen. I suspect the choices were limited to either establishing the Euro as the global currency, or letting the Chinese have their way but keeping the greenback in its position of prominence. Uncle Sam has chosen the lesser of two evils, this time 'round. Tough to get out from under a Chinese thumb, though.

  18. Re:Molycorp's production is going straight to Japa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What? Exports are good for America whether its in the form of something that was machined and assembled or just dug out of the ground. Are miners not people?

  19. Re:Molycorp's production is going straight to Japa by thatskinnyguy · · Score: 2

    Considering the mutual hatred the Japanese and Chinese share toward each other, it's not surprising that the Japanese would want to buy rare earths from us rather than the Chinese. In my narrow view of economics, any time we can export something it's a plus. Our trade deficit hasn't exactly been ideal lately.

    --
    The game.
  20. I burn in hell for demanding responsibility? by spun · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Progress does not consist of a small group of people enriching themselves at everyone else's expense. Progress consists of better things for everyone, not a trade off where some people must lose in order for others to win.

    All I ask is that people pay all the costs they generate, rather than asking others to pay. Why should I burn in hell for asking that people take responsibility for their actions, and how their actions affect others?

    I'm all for real progress, but poisoning people, animals, plants and ecosystems in order to extract useful minerals is not progress. When we extract those minerals without harming others, that is progress. Making things better for some by making things worse for others is not progress.

    --
    - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    1. Re:I burn in hell for demanding responsibility? by mdarksbane · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Technically, one would have to weigh the benefits against the cost.

      If we slag 100 acres of wilderness to produce modern medical technology, I would call that progress. If we destroy the entire biosphere of a continent to save 5 cents at the gas pump, probably not.

      As a general rule, most people when voting with their dollars have chosen cheap goods over cleaner. When they get to vote with what they perceive as other people's dollars, however, suddenly clean sounds a lot better.

    2. Re:I burn in hell for demanding responsibility? by spun · · Score: 2

      Someone always pays the cost for pollution. It is a negative externality. Most people are only conditionally moral creatures, and do not mind externalizing costs onto someone else, especially when diffusion of responsibility lets them think "Well, it wasn't ME that did it, it was ALL of us." No one raindrop thinks it caused the flood, and all that.

      That is the point: people are NOT voting with their dollars for cheaper, less clean products, they are voting with other people's dollars. They are voting with the dollars of the people who will get sick, and they are voting with the dollars of people whose land gets ruined. That is what externality means, someone else pays the true cost.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    3. Re:I burn in hell for demanding responsibility? by mdarksbane · · Score: 1

      With a proper tort law setup this would only really be a problem for air pollution. Water and land pollution tends to be fairly localized and easily traceable. That's not unpaid externalities, that's property damage.

    4. Re:I burn in hell for demanding responsibility? by spun · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Or, rather than waiting for the damage to happen and suing the people who cause it, we could stop it BEFORE it happens through proper enforcement of regulations. You can trace pollution, but putting it back in the bag once it's loose is problematic.

      Another problem is that externalizing costs lets an entity rake in unfair profits that can be used to fight any lawsuits, and in our legal system, David loses to Goliath more often than not. Goliath simply has to keep fighting until David runs our of money. I'd love to see tort reform that put the rich and the poor on even legal footing, but I'm not holding my breath.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    5. Re:I burn in hell for demanding responsibility? by mdarksbane · · Score: 1

      And thankfully we have wise people with no personal agenda nor lobbyist influence making decisions about what is proper regulation.

    6. Re:I burn in hell for demanding responsibility? by spun · · Score: 1

      Please try to limit your criticisms to things that DON'T apply to every single human social system ever invented. And, when responding to criticism of your favored system, please try to refute the criticism rather than deflecting it with charges that apply equally to all social systems.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    7. Re:I burn in hell for demanding responsibility? by khallow · · Score: 2, Insightful

      All I ask is that people pay all the costs they generate, rather than asking others to pay.

      I disagree. A standard NIMBY tactic (perhaps more a phenomena since "tactic" implies conscious intent) is to build residential real estate next to a noxious neighbor (say an asphalt plant or adult store), then get government to impose harsh restrictions on the location's ability to do business, eventually leading to elimination of the business. Then the price of the neighboring real estate rises.

      The noxious neighbor didn't have a choice in the matter of what the neighboring land is used for (unless they can buy it). So they end up generating an externality, but not by choice. The resulting "harsh restrictions" above then are externalities on the noxious neighbor!

      This imposition of externality is in particularly repugnant form with environmental regulation. Ok, fine, society decides that pollution causes a "cost" which "polluters" should pay. Rather than figure how a reasonable dollar amount for the cost in question, regulation on the activities of the polluter are imposed without regard for the cost of compliance with the regulation.

      The absolutely worst of the lot are the costs which are decided after the fact when the perpetrator no longer has any means to reduce the alleged harm of the activity. The US Superfund program is probably one of the worst environmental regulations of the 20th Century for one very important reason, because costs of compliance with Superfund are decided long after the polluter has lost any means to control the pollution in question. I remain puzzled how something like that could ever have survived Constitutional challenge because it's clearly a case of heavily punishing an activity which wasn't wrong at the time it happened.

      I think a reasonable solution here is that if you're going to create an expensive externality, such as deciding the environment is so valuable that onerous burdens must be placed on business in order to comply, you should be the one to pay for it in the beginning.

    8. Re:I burn in hell for demanding responsibility? by burnin1965 · · Score: 1

      The fact that we hear no end to complaints about adhering to environmental regulations, including in this case where Molycorp accepted the cost of updating the environmental controls but not without whining about it, suggest that while it is not perfect and free from corrupting influence it does at times have the desired impact.

      But I will say that I agree with your sentiment in the original post, we do need to be reasonable with our decisions on regulations and environmental controls. But they must not be solely based on the profitability of one corporation that protects the environment versus another that freely pollutes without concern.

    9. Re:I burn in hell for demanding responsibility? by spun · · Score: 1

      Before we begin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality

      The noxious neighbor should never have been noxious in the first place. If you can not create a profitable business without making others pay for part of the cost, such as cleaning up pollution, you have no right to be in business at all.

      What you define is not an "imposition of externalities." It is an "imposition to mitigate externalities." Your profitability is not a consideration, the damage you case is.

      The idea that, sans laws prohibiting it, pollution is acceptable, is simply ludicrous. Harm was done, regardless of the laws at the time. That harm must be rectified.

      The idea that people "create" externalities is also ludicrous. They exist whether people define them or not. When you profit, but someone else must pay part of the cost, that is a negative externality, regardless of how you define it under the law. Similarly, when you do something that everyone profits from, but you are not rewarded sufficiently, that is a positive externality.

      Externalities are failure modes of the free market, where the market fails to efficiently allocate resources. They are not things imposed by governments.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    10. Re:I burn in hell for demanding responsibility? by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      There is a legal concept of 'coming to the nuisance' - it was obvious that the asphalt plant was in operation, so it makes me wonder how these guys aren't laughed out of court. "you built a subdivision next to an industrial plant? Really?". The fact is, there's more than simply pollution - industrial areas are loud and smelly. If we're just talking about an extant externality, the existence of the residential area would be irrelevant - a developer could buy land, sue the neighbor, then build.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    11. Re:I burn in hell for demanding responsibility? by publiclurker · · Score: 1

      Actually, it's worse than that, since all a company has to do is declare bankruptcy, after giving fat golden parachutes to it's executives, end they don't have to clean anything up.

    12. Re:I burn in hell for demanding responsibility? by khallow · · Score: 1

      The noxious neighbor should never have been noxious in the first place. If you can not create a profitable business without making others pay for part of the cost, such as cleaning up pollution, you have no right to be in business at all.

      The other replier brought up the term for this, coming to the nuisance. The principle is basically that you shouldn't have legal remedy, if you come to an externality which you should have anticipated (even one that hasn't arrived yet, such as an industrial plant under construction) rather than the converse.

      The idea that, sans laws prohibiting it, pollution is acceptable, is simply ludicrous. Harm was done, regardless of the laws at the time. That harm must be rectified.

      "Harm was done." Note that in most cases of regulated pollution, harm has never been demonstrated. A threshold is established at which harm cannot occur (which can be far, far lower than the level at which harm can occur, particularly if for the instance of pollution, there's a limited or no pathway for the pollution to enter humans) and penalties are applied past that point.

      The idea that people "create" externalities is also ludicrous. They exist whether people define them or not. When you profit, but someone else must pay part of the cost, that is a negative externality, regardless of how you define it under the law. Similarly, when you do something that everyone profits from, but you are not rewarded sufficiently, that is a positive externality.

      It's also a fact that it occurs as described in the "coming to the nuisance" article. As to claiming that externalities exist absolutely, that is incorrect. Value does not have an objective value else there would be no externality in the first place (since everyone would value the full costs and benefits of an activity the same). The obvious point of disagreement would be in valuing cost of an externality by the perpetrator and the victim.

    13. Re:I burn in hell for demanding responsibility? by shentino · · Score: 1

      Seeing as the rich are the ones buying the laws in the first place, yeah.

      You'd need like a revolution for something like that.

    14. Re:I burn in hell for demanding responsibility? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Nope, a company cannot declare bankruptcy after giving golden parachutes to it's executives.

      You cannot declare bankruptcy for your own actions in going bankrupt. Learn a little about the system before concocting these fables. IF a company was to erroneously spend itself into bankruptcy without justification (an no, severance packages wouldn't be justification) not only would it be barred from bankruptcy to escape it's responsibilities, it's executive that accepted the golden parachutes and those that orchestrated it would be up on charges.

      You can't purposely become bankrupt and use the bankruptcy laws to bail out. It's only there for legitimate encounters where something outside of your control caused the bankruptcy. You then have to make a best effort to control or limit that outside force and throwing money to executives wouldn't hold up against a fiduciary responsibility.

    15. Re:I burn in hell for demanding responsibility? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      I'm not supporting his premise, although I have seen it happen with agriculture operations where the neighboring farm sold land for commercial development that later turned into housing and the new owners made the smell producing farm operations shut down.

      Anyways, one of the conspiracy theories about the environmental groups that keep their membership secret is that it's an effort to close off a certain portion of available lands in order to drive the costs of the other lands up when a city expands. It's supposedly benefits the members who own the non-effected lands when regulation makes it almost impossible to expand in a certain direction.

    16. Re:I burn in hell for demanding responsibility? by publiclurker · · Score: 1

      Right..., you just keep telling yourself that while the rest of us in the real world are busy paying the price of your friends greed and incompetence.

    17. Re:I burn in hell for demanding responsibility? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Show me a company that did is you think it happens.

      I mean the law is pretty clear on this. It's intent isn't hidden nor is it somehow ineffective in the law. Look at Enron, World Com, Tyco and all those who went bankrupt after trying ploys like this and their CEOs went up on charges and got prison sentences with the exceptions of the ones who dies during trial in which case the charges weren't pursued any longer against them.

      But hey, I'm sure you have some real world examples. So why don't you name some and post a link or two for verification. You know, show this existing "in the real world".

    18. Re:I burn in hell for demanding responsibility? by timmarhy · · Score: 0
      i don't know how it works in the USA, but here in australia that's not how it works with mining companies. here and in most other 1st world countries miners have to pay environmental bonds to cover the cost of clean up if they walk away. they only get part of that back if they perform full rehab works.

      of course if your living in some bum fucked 3rd world country where your officals are corrupt, well your fucked and need to fix your country.

      --
      If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
    19. Re:I burn in hell for demanding responsibility? by publiclurker · · Score: 1

      Try every bailed out bank for example. You can even include Enron, Most of the people responsible managed to get away with their fat paychecks for ruining everyone else's lives. but I wouldn't expect you to take that into account, since you are obviously more interested in whoring for your friends than any form of basic morality or fairness.

    20. Re:I burn in hell for demanding responsibility? by cthulhu11 · · Score: 1

      Progress does not consist of a small group of people enriching themselves at everyone else's expense Clearly you don't live in King County, WA. 68,000 Microcult/Amazon/etc. millionaires often get special treatment, and MSFT's compensation policies especially are responsible for the skyrocketing of housing prices a few years back. Code monkeys right out of college make $80k+, and I'm stuck in a friggin townhouse.

    21. Re:I burn in hell for demanding responsibility? by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 1

      The law is not the problem in the US. Its the enforcement of the law that is. A big faceless corporation simply doesn't pay what the real damage really costs. Even if sued.

      Ground water contamination can be quite unlocalized as well.

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    22. Re:I burn in hell for demanding responsibility? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You make an interesting point, but I think you're still wrong.

      Here's why: your argument falls down because it fundamentally fails to acknowledge (or, rather, attempts to cover up) the fact that the polluter in question is still, well, polluting; and not just their own property but also neighboring areas. There is such a thing as caveat emptor, even for land sales (don't build a house next to a baseball stadium if you don't like dealing with crowds!), but there are also certain standards that are fair to impose on everyone, even ex post facto. You don't always get grandfathered in just because you "always did it this way".

      If you cannot help but pollute neighboring land that does not belong to you, buy it. If you cannot buy it, stop polluting it. At the very least, don't complain when others buy it and then ask you to stop polluting it and ask the local legislature to require you to do so if you don't do it voluntarily.

      Remember, your right to swing your fist ends where my face starts, and if you've been swinging your fist on land that doesn't belong to you, don't complain when somebody else buys this land and then expects you to not swing your fist on THEIR land anymore.

    23. Re:I burn in hell for demanding responsibility? by mdarksbane · · Score: 1

      My argument, more generally, was that the structure of systems does matter in their efficiency in dealing with these sorts of problems. When you give a single group unilateral control over an issue and no personal link to any penalties for their failure, you end up with inefficient and poorly functioning systems. This, in general, describes regulatory bureaucracy.

      The more ability to regulate you place in a single group, especially one who is not directly accountable, the more you have these sorts of problems.

      Yes, you *can* have the same issues with a proper tort law setup, but legislators writing those tort laws have far more constituencies to balance, and judges have more general issues and specific accountability as well. Moreover, because those suing and being sued are bearing the actual, not potential or estimated costs involved, striking the correct balance is more direct.

      So yes, I pointed to problems inherent with all human systems. That does not mean that some systems are more or less vulnerable to them.

    24. Re:I burn in hell for demanding responsibility? by khallow · · Score: 1

      Here's why: your argument falls down because it fundamentally fails to acknowledge (or, rather, attempts to cover up) the fact that the polluter in question is still, well, polluting; and not just their own property but also neighboring areas. There is such a thing as caveat emptor, even for land sales (don't build a house next to a baseball stadium if you don't like dealing with crowds!), but there are also certain standards that are fair to impose on everyone, even ex post facto. You don't always get grandfathered in just because you "always did it this way".

      The point is that pollution in itself is not harmful. Obviously, the definition and connotation of pollution is that it is harmful. But current society doesn't distinguish degree of harm. If I'm dumping lead into the watershed, it's pollution, just like dumping lead into a holding pond. But the former is significantly more harmful than the latter (which may be harmless despite technically release a dangerous heavy metal into the environment). In a lot of cases, pollution is only harmful, if there are neighbors to harm. Yet regulation-wise, these acts are still treated mostly the same.

      If you cannot help but pollute neighboring land that does not belong to you, buy it. If you cannot buy it, stop polluting it. At the very least, don't complain when others buy it and then ask you to stop polluting it and ask the local legislature to require you to do so if you don't do it voluntarily.

      Or point out that the neighbors were "coming to the nuisance" and hence, do not deserve relief.

      Remember, your right to swing your fist ends where my face starts, and if you've been swinging your fist on land that doesn't belong to you, don't complain when somebody else buys this land and then expects you to not swing your fist on THEIR land anymore.

      My right to swing my fist doesn't end merely because you suddenly impose your face in the way. What I'm saying here is that spun's post asserts an absolute duty to pay for externalities like pollution. But in practice, neighbors can act in ways that exaggerate, unfairly to the polluter, the harm of the pollution, even to the point of creating harm where there was none before.

    25. Re:I burn in hell for demanding responsibility? by spun · · Score: 1

      You do not understand how golden parachutes work. They are part of a person's employment contract. The person gets the parachute no matter what, because it is a pre-existing debt, in effect, it is actually an operating expense. A few Enron, World Com, and Tyco executives may have gone to prison, but they did so WITH their golden parachutes.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    26. Re:I burn in hell for demanding responsibility? by spun · · Score: 1

      In our democracy, no one group has unilateral control over anything. If they did, it wouldn't be a democracy.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    27. Re:I burn in hell for demanding responsibility? by spun · · Score: 1

      The rich can not "buy the law." They can try to buy votes for someone who will enact their laws, but if we are not selling our votes, they will not succeed.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    28. Re:I burn in hell for demanding responsibility? by spun · · Score: 1

      So, you admit that your first post on the subject was completely wrong? You can't legally "come to the nuisance" and then whine about it? Thank you for that.

      In which cases of regulated pollution has harm NOT been shown? I say, it ha been shown in all cases.

      Externalities exist even though value is not objective. If someone is harmed, and the person causing the harm does not have to pay for it, there is an externality. The magnitude of the externality might be open to debate, and certainly, some may cry "harm" when there is none, but that does not negate the existence of externalities as class. You are basically saying, "Harm is not objective," and I agree, but so what? Our legal system still manages to work fairly well regardless.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    29. Re:I burn in hell for demanding responsibility? by khallow · · Score: 1

      So, you admit that your first post on the subject was completely wrong? You can't legally "come to the nuisance" and then whine about it? Thank you for that.

      In a courtroom, "coming to the nuisance" is a defense for the nuisance. But the courts aren't the only government bodies out there. The simplest is to act via local government. They have significant powers to impose and enforce regulation on nuisances.

      In which cases of regulated pollution has harm NOT been shown? I say, it ha been shown in all cases.

      For example, the EPA has recently created new standards for sulfur dioxide concentrations at 75 parts per billion. They didn't pick the threshold because 76 ppb was harmful but 74 ppb not harmful. So if a coal plant releases enough SO2 so that a nearby measurement shows 80 ppb, that doesn't mean that the coal plant's pollution is harmful even though it exceeds the threshold.

      Externalities exist even though value is not objective. If someone is harmed, and the person causing the harm does not have to pay for it, there is an externality. The magnitude of the externality might be open to debate, and certainly, some may cry "harm" when there is none, but that does not negate the existence of externalities as class. You are basically saying, "Harm is not objective," and I agree, but so what? Our legal system still manages to work fairly well regardless.

      My point is that saying "externalities exist whether people define them or not" is incorrect. A lot of externalities, such as deciding 80 ppb of SO2 exceeds standards, are externalities only because someone with power decides they are.

    30. Re:I burn in hell for demanding responsibility? by spun · · Score: 1

      Show me a case where someone came to the nuisance, and then used legislation to get the nuisance removed.

      You don't seem to realize how thresholds work, how they are chosen, and why, so you claim it is arbitrary. But it is your lack of understanding that is the problem. Sure, 75ppb may seem arbitrary, but the number was not picked out of a hat. It takes many, many factors into account, such as how far the pollutant spreads, what other sources are there, whether it bioaccumulates, and how quickly natural processes remove it from the environment.

      Ah, look, the 80ppb is not the externality. You've got it so backward I can't even figure out how you got there. The 80ppb is an attempt to fix an externality, the harm that comes from sulfur emissions. It is not that 81ppb creates an externality and 79 does not. That is just stupid, willful ignorance of the way things work, we have many different polluters and we are trying to create a fair cap that will reduce harm overall. The fact is that given the right conditions, even 40ppb can cause problems, and the people that it causes problems for probably won't even realize the problem was caused by sulfur, let alone who emitted the sulfur.

      We know that sulfur in the environment causes health problems, as well as another negative externality known as "stench." We have to set an arbitrary limit for sulfur emissions to reduce the externality. It is not the regulation that is the externality! It is a regulation, it is NOT EXTERNAL! Fines are paid, it is not an externality. Remember, an externality is something that is not paid for.

      I'm getting bored trying to explain econ 101 to you, trying to argue with a know it all who knows nothing is pointless. Please educate yourself to the point that you can use the language in the same way other people use it, rather than making up definitions in your head. If you have a completely different definition of 'externality' than everyone else, then you and I can not have a rational conversation about externalities.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    31. Re:I burn in hell for demanding responsibility? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      No a person does not gets the parachute no matter what. The point of bankruptcy relief is because you or the company owes more then your assets and what it can hope to repay in a normal lifetime through no deliberate act of it's own. When a company or you files for bankruptcy, retirement, employee compensation, benefits, expenditures and all that has to be reviewed by a judge or arbitrator who was appointed by the bankruptcy court then justified as an ongoing payment before it's reviewed. Look into it a bit more before replying and go further then wikipedia.

      Not only have CEO's lost all compensation for the year the company went into bankruptcy, but employees have lost back pay, retirement and so on in the process. I'm aware of one company in Ohio that even lost the ability to provide medical insurance to it's employees during the filings.

      It seems that you do not know what a bankruptcy is. It's a legal means to break contracts and forget debt- including employment contracts.

      A few Enron, World Com, and Tyco executives may have gone to prison, but they did so WITH their golden parachutes.

      No they didn't go with golden parachutes. Those were all taken from them, plus any extra. In fact, it was the golden parachutes that launched the probes into their fiduciary problems that caused them to go to prison in the first place.

      I know you have been brainwashed that corporations==bad==evil. I'm not going to argue that, but I will argue against your misconceptions to the point they become fallacies.

    32. Re:I burn in hell for demanding responsibility? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      The bailed out banks didn't file bankruptcy. The bail out prevented that remember?

      And you obviously didn't follow enron very closely. Almost everyone who got a severance package that was in a position that could have stopped the cooked books had that package confiscated from them. The CEOs even had assets frozen and confiscated that couldn't be justified by payments outside their connections to Enron.

    33. Re:I burn in hell for demanding responsibility? by khallow · · Score: 1

      Show me a case where someone came to the nuisance, and then used legislation to get the nuisance removed.

      The classic examples are American Indians. They were repeatedly moved because they were bothering settlers who often had moved illegally into Indian reservations.

      Ah, look, the 80ppb is not the externality. You've got it so backward I can't even figure out how you got there. The 80ppb is an attempt to fix an externality, the harm that comes from sulfur emissions. It is not that 81ppb creates an externality and 79 does not. That is just stupid, willful ignorance of the way things work, we have many different polluters and we are trying to create a fair cap that will reduce harm overall.

      If I go over the limit even by a little and don't take whatever action is mandated, then I can be subject to fines and worse. Those costs have been rationalized because SO2 emission is considered to be an externality. The costs of compliance (and noncompliance) I experience are tied explicitly to the harm of pollution. The point here is that prohibitions which negate the externality are always more costly than the perceived externality. This is why I favor things like pollution credits.

      The fact is that given the right conditions, even 40ppb can cause problems, and the people that it causes problems for probably won't even realize the problem was caused by sulfur, let alone who emitted the sulfur.

      Replacing "The fact" with "My opinion" and your statement above is as correct as it'll ever be.

      I'm getting bored trying to explain econ 101 to you, trying to argue with a know it all who knows nothing is pointless. Please educate yourself to the point that you can use the language in the same way other people use it, rather than making up definitions in your head. If you have a completely different definition of 'externality' than everyone else, then you and I can not have a rational conversation about externalities.

      That makes one of us. I find your attempts entertaining. Just remember arguments that are based on poorly founded assumptions can't hold up.

    34. Re:I burn in hell for demanding responsibility? by spun · · Score: 1

      Back then, the Indians were not considered Americans and had no rights to any protections under the law. But really, you need to go back that far, and stretch the meaning of 'coming to the nuisance' to insane lengths? I would just call that plain old imperialism.

      No, the cost of compliance is decidedly NOT tied to the harm of pollution, nor should it be. The fines are punative, they are a punishment. They cost of the fine takes many things into account, including the likelihood of being caught. If nine out of ten offenders will not be caught, in general our law makes the punishment much more harsh, in order to be an effective deterrent. Also, if only one in ten polluters are caught, in order to mitigate the damage, the one that is caught needs to be charged ten times as much. If you have a problem with that, don't break the law and harm others.

      Not opinion, fact. I said "given the right conditions" and that could include bioaccumulation, or other sorts of naturally occurring processes that concentrate pollutants, for instance, evaporation of groundwater with 40ppb of a pollutant can leave a very concentrated pollutant.

      I'm glad that you can admit your arguments are based on poorly founded assumptions.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    35. Re:I burn in hell for demanding responsibility? by shentino · · Score: 1

      Ahem.

      I mean "contribute campaign contributions and offer cushy private sector jobs in return for special favors."

    36. Re:I burn in hell for demanding responsibility? by khallow · · Score: 1

      Back then, the Indians were not considered Americans and had no rights to any protections under the law. But really, you need to go back that far, and stretch the meaning of 'coming to the nuisance' to insane lengths? I would just call that plain old imperialism.

      I choose that case because it's the most egregious example in the US. For modern examples, consider night flights out of airports. For example, back in 2001, the European Court of Human Rights ruled that the noise from night flights out of Heathrow Airport in the UK violated the human rights of local residents. I don't know how long Heathrow has had night flights, but surely it's been going on for decades by the time of the court case.

      More generally, there's a movement to ban all night flights in the EU, even for locations where night flights aren't a problem. They apparently have the ear of several European Parliament members.

      In the US, due to urban spawl and the high cost of real estate, there are many residences and delicate public buildings (like schools) near industrial areas and other nuisances. For example:

      "It troubles me, 12 or 14 years later, to go back to a business owner in Whistler after we made a decision to put a neighbourhood next to his plant and say, 'You know what? Back then we thought this. Now we're choosing to interpret this differently, and now you're going to have to pay.' I don't think that's a good way to do business. It's not logical to me."

      The reporter interviewed a resident later in the article who said:

      "Oh, he doesn't have to worry about that," said Tim Koshul, struggling to compose himself, tears of relief streaming down his face. "I'm ecstatic to live with the status quo, because the status quo means that we have a very good shot of getting this heavy industry out of the neighbourhood and living in a safe place where we can all enjoy our lives and kids can play and everything else."

      He said there are two lawyers waiting on a call from Koshul following council's decision about what the next steps will be. Those steps are up in the air at this point.

      "We will take steps to get them out of there and make this the most amazing neighbourhood that it was planned to be for this community. I haven't been at a loss for words for 10 months," he laughed.

      This little act is repeated everywhere in the US.

      Not opinion, fact. I said "given the right conditions" and that could include bioaccumulation, or other sorts of naturally occurring processes that concentrate pollutants, for instance, evaporation of groundwater with 40ppb of a pollutant can leave a very concentrated pollutant.

      Air doesn't evaporate. And any bioaccumulation that concentrates sulfate salts, is going to concentrate naturally (as in not man-made) occurring toxic chemicals as well.

  21. Re:Molycorp's production is going straight to Japa by DCFusor · · Score: 5, Insightful
    No, it's not all going to Japan, just some. A lot of the Japanese companies are going to use this stuff *here* and might as well, because many of them manufacture little things like cars, um, here to sell to us. Molycorp is going mine-to-magnet right here, and that's where the value added is. I'm glad of it, having bought quite a lot of their stock when it was priced about half what it is today...yum. (I trade for a living, and this has been one of the good trades this year).

    RE mining has been an environmental problem for a long time. For whatever reason, the RE ores always seem to have a lot of thorium in them also -- there's your radioactive issue, and why we don't just refine and use that too, I'm clueless, as the price of uranium is also doing well (and I own stock in that too that is also doing well). As the Indians know, it's part of a useful fuel cycle as it can be bred into fissile fuel just like U238 can be. The other issue with RE's is that most of them are so chemically similar that they can be real tough to get apart into the individual RE metals. GM and others have done some work on making pretty good magnets with "what you get" rather than what you'd have in a perfect world, slightly reduced performance compared to perfect, but far lower costs at a few stages of the process.

    At the instant of this writing, MCP is up 10.2% *in one day* which is about a usual annual return from the stock markets. REMX, an ETF that tracks RE's is only up 0.87%. No guts, no glory. I don't know about the other bucks for sure, but the profits trading on MCP are going to this redneck engineer American to be spent here. I'm sure like any news driven stock, that it will either go back down, or flounder around awhile before going up again. That's why I call myself a trader -- I don't invest, I trade, and know when the heck to get out and put the money back into first bank of mattress....

    Copper is doing pretty well these days too, some due to manipulation, but in general we're finding out that Malthus was right, just in the wrong century. Won't be many decades before old landfills become a "mineral rights" issue. We really do live in a finite place.

    --
    Why guess when you can know? Measure!
  22. So does this mean... by _0rm_ · · Score: 1

    We may finally see some devices that bear the sticker "Made in America"?

    --
    Boredom is bliss.
  23. Re:Molycorp's production is going straight to Japa by zippthorne · · Score: 4, Insightful

    That's too narrow. (or maybe not narrow enough?)

    Equitable trade is mutually beneficial.

    Being a net exporter means that you lose all your stuff and get a wad of IOUs of uncertain value (inflation, for instance, kills the value of your holdings)

    Being a net importer means you incur debt, but get all the wonderful stuff.

    Neither of which is particularly healthy, and certainly can't possibly be sustainable in the long term. Think about it: China's status as the world's provider of cheaply manufactured goods means that their own citizens are not benefiting from that massive industrial capacity as much as they could be, and they're sure as hell not benefitting from that capacity if the import side of that is money or ownership stakes in foreign countries, and not, y'know, stuff.

    --
    Can you be Even More Awesome?!
  24. Re:Molycorp's production is going straight to Japa by Applekid · · Score: 1

    Are miners not people?

    The courts have often rules that minors aren't people.

    *rimshot*

    --
    More Twoson than Cupertino
  25. Re:Molycorp's production is going straight to Japa by Yosho-sama · · Score: 1

    Despite the story's GO AMERICA slant, a lot of material is going straight to Japan, where most of it is consumed in the first place. Like to Hitachi: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6BK5PL20101221

    Oh look. They also signed deals with Sumitomo and Mitsubishi: http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/business/T101219002181.htm

    They got huge piles of cash from Sumitomo, Mitsubishi, and Hitachi...which is why it's hilarious to hear the CEO of Molycorp waving American flags in various quotes. Oh, and Molycorp's stock has shot up since their IPO in July: http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-07-28/molycorp-s-ipo-aims-at-chinese-grip-on-smart-bombs.html

    Also, how interesting that the EPA announces cleanup plan of Molycorp site just a few days ago: http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=12460111

    The EPA said contaminated material from the Molycorp site includes about 328 million tons of acid-generating waste rock, more than 100 million tons of tailings and acid-rock drainage at the mine and seepage at the tailings facility.

    Anyone want to place bets on whether or not the US government will press environmental regulations on Molycorp this time, now that national security interests are involved?

    This smacks of isolationism and ignorance as to how economics work. My guns and butter are more valuable being sold to Japan than in America, then sell to Japan. I get more money out of it, Uncle Sam gets more taxes out of it, my American employees get paid for creating the product, and I don't have to worry about Japan suddenly stockpiling MY products in order to stifle trade. It's literally the biggest amount of Win/Win that can occur. China made mining in America not as profitable as importing it. Now that that is over, the mine is reopening. It's as simple as that. That radioactive waste water snippet did raise my eyebrow though.

    --
    My kingdom for a donkey!
  26. Old news by Animats · · Score: 4, Informative

    The Molycorp restart has been known for months. The IPO was back in July.

    "Rare earths" aren't really that rare. There are many potential mining sites worldwide. They're sparse, in that huge amounts of rock have to be processed to get small amounts of metal. Because of that, rare earth mines produce vast amounts of useless tailings, contaminated with the chemicals used in extraction. That's why nobody wants one nearby. The big one in Inner Mongolia is considered an environmental disaster area even by Chinese standards.

    1. Re:Old news by Graff · · Score: 1

      "Rare earths" aren't really that rare. There are many potential mining sites worldwide. They're sparse, in that huge amounts of rock have to be processed to get small amounts of metal.

      Rare, in this case, is a relative term. You might play poker and rarely get a royal flush (1 in 649,740) but if you play a billion hands you'll get an average of 1539 royal flushes. You never go above the rare chance to get a royal flush but with a big enough sample size you are likely to end up with a lot of them.

      The Earth is a HUGE sample size but that doesn't change the fact that the rare earths are, well, rare! Of course almost every element is rare in comparison to the most common element, hydrogen.

    2. Re:Old news by demonbug · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Coordinates of the Chinese mine are 41.797846,109.976892 if you are interested in looking it up on Google Earth or similar. Hard to judge the size of the mine directly, but the sprawling piles of tailings are pretty impressive (the rampant nasty-looking runoff less so).

      For comparison, the Mountain Pass mine in California appears to be at 35.47903,-115.535796 (literally just off I-15 between LA and Las Vegas).

    3. Re:Old news by demonbug · · Score: 1

      Addition to my post: You can find the Chinese mine on Google Maps if you put "baiyun'ebo" in as the search term as opposed to the various spellings in this and other articles.

    4. Re:Old news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Noticed the high school located actually ON the mining site?

      Cradle to grave get a whole new definition here.

  27. Re:Molycorp's production is going straight to Japa by Charliemopps · · Score: 1

    Your points aren't really relevant. The US is once again producing something and selling it to another country. That's a good thing and lowers our trade deficit. While we'd all love for all the materials to be mined here, and all the equipment made here that goes into our military equipment... the fact of the matter is, the loop that goes: Mined in the US, made in Japan, assembled in the US is a heck of a lot better than: Mined in China, Made in China, Assembled in the US.

    As far as the pollution goes, simply forcing the industry into a country that has no environmental regulations at all isn't solving the problem. We all share the globe. Even if MolyCorp only cleans up half what they should, that's still 50% better than what they are doing in China.

  28. Re:better then buying for mines where works make $ by spun · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Those workers aren't going anywhere. Those mines will not be shut down just because the US may produce up to 20% of our rare earths domestically. The rest of the world still needs rare earths, and we still need to get 80% of ours from someplace else.

    --
    - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
  29. Here's the scoop on the mine's problems by spun · · Score: 2
    --
    - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
  30. Re:Molycorp's production is going straight to Japa by thatskinnyguy · · Score: 1

    If I could, I would grant you points. Consider what we import from Japan versus what we export to them. It is balanced in their favor at the moment.

    --
    The game.
  31. Cold War with China by BlueBoxSW.com · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Can we finally admit that we're in a cold war with china? Finally?

    1. Re:Cold War with China by Arnold+Reinhold · · Score: 1

      Uhh no. We have some trade issues with China, but they hardly rise to the level of Cold War.

    2. Re:Cold War with China by Jeng · · Score: 2

      Can you please state what makes you think we are in a cold war with China?

      Capitalistic competitors, yes, but not cold war adversaries any longer.

      --
      Don't know something? Look it up. Still don't know? Then ask.
    3. Re:Cold War with China by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only if China allows you to. I mean, you do realize that they're the ones propping you up at this point, right?

    4. Re:Cold War with China by doyoulikeworms · · Score: 1

      The problem is, we aren't. The most committed and convincing example of cooperation between nations, beyond military and political alliances, is commerce. The friendship is rough, sure, but certainly more cooperative than adversarial.

    5. Re:Cold War with China by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can you please state what makes you think we are in a cold war with China?

      Capitalistic competitors, yes, but not cold war adversaries any longer.

      Umm, did anyone think to tell this to the PRC Politburo?

      I seem to recall something about "selling the capitalists the rope with which to hang themselves" being a principle aspect of Chinese Communist doctrine. How much of our nation's debt is underwritten by the PRC, again? Where have the manufacturing jobs that Americans used to do been getting outsourced to, lately?

      I'm not about to hold my breath waiting for our upper echelons of society to actually start exercising human decency and compassion towards their fellow citizens when they can further enrich themselves by doing business with a foreign government that has historically had nothing but antipathy towards anyone who exercised a point of view that differed from that espoused by it's own party elite.

      After all, that's where the money is, now.

  32. another group of scam artists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    There are only a few principals in Molycorp, each with millions in salaries plus bonuses. They managed to lose over 80 million USD on 22 million USD in equity in just three short years. They hired a couple firms to shake the fear lobby public relations/news tree. The Japan-China rare earth thing occurs regularly every couple of years, and this incident is no different. You may find in the next SEC filing that the principals have unloaded significant paper dilution in the latest round of scamming. I expect they will close again once the stock sale scamming has peaked.

  33. Re:Molycorp's production is going straight to Japa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Unless we live in some bizarro world where the Japanese live in houses made of rare-earth metal and eat it for breakfast whilst the ragged American hobos starve, it is highly likely that a lot of these metals are going to be made into export items and electronics. Whether the mobile phones and bomb fall systems used by Americans are created by Americans or by Japanese is pretty irrelevant. The availability for use is the important point.

    I guess in your rather bizarro world a good company is one with a low stock price, and a high stock price is somehow a character flaw or sign of shenanigans. Can't help you cure that affliction.

    Not surprising if the EPA cleans it up for free. A country is able to expend its resources to further its national goals. How this is new to you is beyond me.

  34. Re:Molycorp's production is going straight to Japa by drinkypoo · · Score: 0

    Corporations have more rights than minors for the simple reason that they can vote.

    Of course, the same is true when comparing corporations to any other group...

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  35. Re:Molycorp's production is going straight to Japa by burnin1965 · · Score: 1

    <HECKLER> If they were Incorporated then they would be legal individuals! Instead they prefer to be commie unincorporated human beings. </HECKLER>

  36. The summary is way off. by mosb1000 · · Score: 4, Informative

    The article says the mine will produce about 20% of China's current output, not 20% of the amount we import.

    By the end of 2012, the company is aiming to produce 20,000 tons of rare earths

    China, on the other hand, produced about 124,000 tons of rare earths in 2009

    1. Re:The summary is way off. by spun · · Score: 2

      Well, it is all guesswork anyhow, and Molycorp has a fairly fraudulent past. More than likely, this mine will never open and the investors will see their money disappear into a giant hole in the ground. Molycorp will claim that the big bad government stopped them with its evil environmental laws, but I'm guessing they have no more intention of reopening the mine than they had any intention of running a clean mine in the first place.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    2. Re:The summary is way off. by camperslo · · Score: 1

      ...Molycorp has a fairly fraudulent past...

      citations please

      With processes that can easily expose a great deal of toxic material we need adequate regulations and oversight to insure that negligence or greed don't lead to problematic behaviors. If the company has a troubled past, we should watch even more closely.

      We have a need for a domestic source for this material. Hopefully it will bring us some new jobs making products that use it. With growth of demand for material used in magnets for wind driven generators and in motors for electric cars, there should be enough revenue to make proper operation viable.

      Certainly there is a justified fear of having bought-off regulators and horrific practices as a result. Let's hope that if things start to go down that path there will be some media left, or something like Wikileaks, to tell us about it.

  37. Re:Molycorp's production is going straight to Japa by Sleepy · · Score: 2

    China's status as the world's provider of cheaply manufactured goods means that their own citizens are not benefiting from that massive industrial capacity as much as they could be

    China's status as the world's largest manufacturer - and soon the world's highest-tech manufacturer - plus all those IOUs they own means that they will be able to do whatever the hell they want. China's not interested in raising their standard of living too fast, if it means that a huge disparity exists between the poor and the really dirt-poor. China doesn't want the manufacturing to race to the next developing nation, and it's big enough that they know there will always be suitable numbers of desperate unemployed population to keep wages (and worker demands) very low.

    But China's not stupid, they're plowing this money and tech into their military. Their submarine navy for example isn't made to carry nukes, but they ARE made to act as underwater troop carriers.

  38. Re:Molycorp's production is going straight to Japa by vux984 · · Score: 1

    Uh, how is exporting raw materials (many of which will end up in electronics back on our shores) bad for America?

    Who said it was bad for America?

    ure, it would be better if those materials were used in local manufacturing facilities, but opening a source of those raw materials will make it more financially viable to do so.

    Agreed. But lets not put the celebrations ahead of the victory. The company press released is something of a "Mission Accomplished" moment, and that is what is being poked fun at.

  39. Re:Molycorp's production is going straight to Japa by Spoke · · Score: 1

    Who said it was bad for America?

    The GP said:

    which is why it's hilarious to hear the CEO of Molycorp waving American flags in various quotes

    Seemed to me that he was implying that opening these mines in the USA is only good for the Japanese companies funding the project and bad for the USA who is stuck with the cleanup costs.

    Any substantial investment into the USA is a good reason to wave the flag, especially in a state with 12.5% unemployment.

  40. Re:Molycorp's production is going straight to Japa by vux984 · · Score: 1

    Any substantial investment into the USA is a good reason to wave the flag, especially in a state with 12.5% unemployment.

    Agreed. But its not "Mission Accomplished".

    And in many respects it parallels AmericanCorporationX opening a textiles plant in unnamed 3rd world high-unemployment country. Yay! Jobs for the unemployed is good... but long term, is it even a step in the right direction for unnamed 3rd world country?

  41. Re:Molycorp's production is going straight to Japa by khallow · · Score: 1

    And in many respects it parallels AmericanCorporationX opening a textiles plant in unnamed 3rd world high-unemployment country. Yay! Jobs for the unemployed is good... but long term, is it even a step in the right direction for unnamed 3rd world country?

    Why wouldn't it be? AmericanCorporationX pays more and has better working conditions than the local businesses. So it improves the standard of living and generates wealth for unnamed 3rd world country.

  42. Re:Molycorp's production is going straight to Japa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    acid-generating waste rock

    In the US the rock you dig up is considered hazardous. Almost all forms of rock will leech something or other when wet so it's all 'hazardous waste.'

    Mountains also frequently leech acid and other 'hazardous' chemicals. You can't sue a mountain, however. Demonstrating against landscape is seen as silly and geologic formations are unresponsive to regulation.

  43. Re:Molycorp's production is going straight to Japa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Fucking speculator. You are a parasite producing nothing of value.

  44. Re:Molycorp's production is going straight to Japa by vux984 · · Score: 1

    Why wouldn't it be? AmericanCorporationX pays more and has better working conditions than the local businesses. So it improves the standard of living and generates wealth for unnamed 3rd world country.

    There is a reason we call it exploitation.

  45. 20% total China produces, not US imports by Elder+Entropist · · Score: 2

    Within two years the mine could be producing 20% of the amount of rare earths we import from China.

    The article says the mine could produce 20% of what China produces, not 20% of what the US imports from China.

  46. Re:Molycorp's production is going straight to Japa by m50d · · Score: 1

    To do what? Do you really believe China's more interested in starting WW3 than increasing the standard of living of its population?

    --
    I am trolling
  47. Re:Molycorp's production is going straight to Japa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And in many respects it parallels AmericanCorporationX opening a textiles plant in unnamed 3rd world high-unemployment country. Yay! Jobs for the unemployed is good... but long term, is it even a step in the right direction for unnamed 3rd world country?

    Why wouldn't it be? AmericanCorporationX pays more and has better working conditions than the local businesses. So it improves the standard of living and generates wealth for unnamed 3rd world country.

    It frequently doesn't turn out that way. Usually the production moved to country C because there is some locally exploitable resource in addition to cheap labor (there are a lot of cheap labor countries to chose from, why chose one far away from cotton if you are doing textiles?) If ACX moved there because the resource was unused, there is a good chance it will work out for locals and ACX. But usually there is local business using that resource. What happens when an international country with huge resources move in is it undercuts local business, gives higher wages, pays higher for local raw material production for a while. Local business that can't compete goes bust, and wages, raw material prices and employment statistics are not much, if any, better that before. If that country had been a major producer before, ACX can also enjoy better prices for its products.

    And then ACX finds a new country D...

  48. Re:Molycorp's production is going straight to Japa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes, but you miss the point of the imbalances. It's a wonderful way to channel wealth to those that broker it all. You can bitch about the industrialists all you want, but at least they built something and generated lots of jobs in the process. What we are dealing with now is an elite class that is no more than a parasite on the human race. That aren't Capitalists. They aren't Industrialists. They are financiers and they are playing the greatest skim-game in human history, all supported by our large (quasi-)government institutions.

    This will end in blood and tears.

  49. Monazite by mangu · · Score: 1

    Luckily, when you spill thorium-laced water over a large area of desert, it never gradually turns into wind-borne radioactive dust...

    You mean, like the naturally occurring monazite sands from which rare earth metals are mined?

    1. Re:Monazite by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Death is naturally occurring, but when I do it, it's a crime.

    2. Re:Monazite by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      The fact that the monazite refining process involves either "heating it with concentrated sulfuric acid to temperatures between 120 and 150 C for several hours" or application of "sodium hydroxide solution (73 %) at about 140 C" suggests that the thorium and rare earths in the naturally occuring stuff are likely to be considerably less chemically mobile than the thorium and friends in the wastewater from the refining process...

  50. Define "mess", define "cleaning up" by mangu · · Score: 1

    This is basic, people, something we all should have learned no later than preschool: you make a mess, you clean it up.

    It would be good if people demanded this of the coal and oil industries.

    In the case of rare earths mining, the problem is only the absurd regulations that demand the radiation level in waste to be lower than what's found in nature.

    1. Re:Define "mess", define "cleaning up" by spun · · Score: 1

      Citations, or are you just making stuff up?

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    2. Re:Define "mess", define "cleaning up" by GaryOlson · · Score: 1

      EPA guidelines for water contaminants are identical regardless of your geographical location; so no variance for already existing contaminants is included. Therefore, in areas with levels of specific minerals, the mining companies have to filter for contaminants they did not introduce.
      Sorry, no single link clickeys available, homework and comparisons are required.

      --
      Every mans' island needs an ocean; choose your ocean carefully.
    3. Re:Define "mess", define "cleaning up" by spun · · Score: 1

      I did the homework and found you were lying, and I will provide as much proof as you did supporting your lie. As they say, that which is presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
  51. Re:Molycorp's production is going straight to Japa by khallow · · Score: 1

    There is a reason we call it exploitation.

    To hide the benefit? Why is it ok to be exploited by the local businesses, but not ok to be exploited, with better wages and benefits, by a multinational?

  52. so what deals have they inked with US companies? by SuperBanana · · Score: 1

    No, it's not all going to Japan, just some.

    Really? Then show me a list of US companies Molycorp has announced deals with.

    Show me what US companies Molycorp has secured hundreds of millions of dollars in financing from.

    *insert sound of crickets*

  53. Re:Molycorp's production is going straight to Japa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Using Americans as slave force after winning WW3 China can increase the "standard of living" of it's WHOLE population.

  54. Re:Molycorp's production is going straight to Japa by rtb61 · · Score: 1

    Any bets that the Government of China will drop the price of rare earths once Molycorp has invested the greatest amount of capital in it and then has huge, bankruptcy risk. Expect those in the know to buy shares early and then dump them latter just before the stock price collapse.

    Once into receivership a Chinese company will buy the mine and decommission it, the reduced supply will result in a substantial price increase in rare earths.

    face it folks, this is standard corporate economics 101. Free market thing guarantees that it will and the greed of local investors (Americans stabbing Americans in the back and betraying their own country) ensure it will happen. Corporate law, have to buy the cheapest source of supply regardless of consequences, just invest smartly to profit as a result of those consequences.

    --
    Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
  55. Digging rare earths from the ground is easy part by boorack · · Score: 4, Informative

    The hard one is separating them. And they are hard to separate because of very similiar chemical properties. Currently there is problably no functional rare earths separation facility outside of China and rare earths concentrate (mine output) has to be brought back to China and thus becomes subject of China export quotas. There is one facility in construction (in Malasia as far as I remember) but going to production will take a while. Chinese have driven everyone out of business and then bought remaining facilities and know-how. And no one in intervened - utter stupidity and incompetence of western leadership has surpassed levels of lack-of-self-preservation-instinct in this matter. We are totally dependent on Chinese and this year we learned about this the hard way. Chineese limited their export quotas by 70% and rare earths prices jumped several times. Of course, you can buy them cheaper for producing your widgets, you just need to move your production facility to China.

    I just hope we get full rare earth production chain up and working as soon as possible, but it will propably take a few years.

  56. Re:Molycorp's production is going straight to Japa by vux984 · · Score: 1

    Why is it ok to be exploited by the local businesses, but not ok to be exploited, with better wages and benefits, by a multinational?

    When did anyone say being exploited by local business was ok?

  57. Re:Molycorp's production is going straight to Japa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Uh, China is not the world's largest mfg. US still holds that position and will for a few more decades or so. China just surpassed Japan as the world's number two.

  58. Re:Molycorp's production is going straight to Japa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Being a net exporter means that you lose all your stuff and get a wad of IOUs of uncertain value (inflation, for instance, kills the value of your holdings) [...]

    Neither of which is particularly healthy, and certainly can't possibly be sustainable in the long term. Think about it: China's status as the world's provider of cheaply manufactured goods means that their own citizens are not benefiting from that massive industrial capacity as much as they could be, and they're sure as hell not benefitting from that capacity if the import side of that is money or ownership stakes in foreign countries, and not, y'know, stuff.

    Why not?

    Until *very* recently, the world's largest exporter of goods was not actually China but Germany. And I'm not talking about exports per capita, I'm talking about exports, period. Nevertheless, Germany is a wealthy first-world nation that has a very high standard of living and a human development index (HDI) comparable to that of, say, Japan or South Korea.

    The situation isn't the same in China, obviously, but it should also be obvious that being a net exporter does not automatically mean your citizens will be deprived of all your stuff.

  59. Re:Molycorp's production is going straight to Japa by khallow · · Score: 1

    You did, when you considered employment by multinationals out of context. If these workers aren't being "exploited" by someone, then they aren't working.

  60. "this is were i come from" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    t-hehe, the cool thing is that the camera used in the dailymail link
    probably has some rare-earth components inside. talk about returning to
    the place of birth ...

  61. Does it hurt, being as wrong as you are? by spun · · Score: 1

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_parachute

    http://www.irstaxattorney.com/bankruptcy/Golden_Parachute.html

    http://www.nowpublic.com/tech-biz/times-mirror-exec-payoffs-revealed-tribune-bankruptcy-filing

    http://chicagobreakingbusiness.com/2010/07/tribune-co-proposes-severance-packages-for-top-execs-if-they-are-dismissed.html

    http://www.politicalwrinkles.com/economics/8338-former-wamu-execs-sue-golden-parachutes.html

    http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1458937/how_to_cure_the_golden_parachutes.html

    But perhaps the best explanation, and the most damning to your case, can be found here:

    http://definitions.uslegal.com/g/golden-parachute-payment/

    I'll reprint the relevant bit here, because it is such an absolute and direct refutation of your silly, uninformed opinions.

    According to 12 CFR 359.1 [Title 12 -- Banks and Banking; Chapter III -- Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation; Subchapter B -- Regulations and Statements of General Policy; Part 359 -- Golden Parachute and Indemnification Payments], golden parachute payment means “any payment (or any agreement to make any payment) in the nature of compensation by any insured depository institution or an affiliated depository institution holding company for the benefit of any current or former IAP pursuant to an obligation of such institution or holding company that:

    (i) Is contingent on, or by its terms is payable on or after, the termination of such party's primary employment or affiliation with the institution or holding company; and

    (ii) Is received on or after, or is made in contemplation of, any of the following events:

    (A) The insolvency (or similar event) of the insured depository institution which is making the payment or bankruptcy or insolvency (or similar event) of the depository institution holding company which is making the payment; or

    WOW! So, "Golden Parachutes" are actually (among other things) meant to protect executives in the case of bankruptcy.

    I just have to ask, why do you bother? I mean, every. single. time. you try to argue with me, you lose. Doesn't it get tiring?

    --
    - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    1. Re:Does it hurt, being as wrong as you are? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Are you stupid? I mean seriously, can you not read a little about bankruptcy law and understand how it works first before jumping to the wrong god damned conclusions and making an ignorant ass out of yourself?

      In your first link, it shows the filing in debt. That's only part of the process I stated "When a company or you files for bankruptcy, retirement, employee compensation, benefits, expenditures and all that has to be reviewed by a judge or arbitrator who was appointed by the bankruptcy court then justified as an ongoing payment before it's reviewed."

      In your second link (and I'm discounting the wikipedia link), it shows tax liabilities when a bankruptcy court allows a golden parachute payment that is in line with the corporation's fiduciary responsibility. Nothing new or different from what I said here.

      In your third link, it only expands on the first which is still in line with what I said completely.

      In your forth link, it's not even relevant because the bank, Washington Mutual didn't file bankruptcy, they were seized by the feds and dissolved or in the process of it because it was so underfunded. And if you note, they have to sue to try and get their severance packages because it was denied when the feds shut it down so if anything, it bolsters what I said.

      In your fifth link, it's irrelevant too. It talks about bank bailouts not bankruptcy. You see, there is a fucking difference between the government bailing you out and you not having to file bankruptcy and you actually filing bankruptcy. If you cannot understand that, then you probably should just shut up right now.

      I'll reprint the relevant bit here, because it is such an absolute and direct refutation of your silly, uninformed opinions.

      Relevent to whom? You? I mean common, you only posted the definition of what a golden parachute is in your last link but you failed to even remotely consider why it's defined. Well, here is why! Do you see that where in 12 CFR 359.2 it makes golden parachutes illegal?

      359.2 Golden parachute payments prohibited.

      No insured depository institution or depository institution holding company shall make or agree to make any golden parachute payment, except as provided in this part. Keep on reading because in 359.3 it makes taking insurance out on you getting the golden parachute in case the company goes bankrupt illegal too. There are some exceptions but the way you are attempting to portray it is in no way part of them.

      Go ahead and follow the regulations, even follow the link in the end where it says nothing in this regulation binds any payment to any receiver or shouldn't be construed to violate 12 U.S.C. 1828(k)(3).

      WOW! So, "Golden Parachutes" are actually (among other things) meant to protect executives in the case of bankruptcy.

      Why don't you just shut up and read the law. You started and I'm not sure if you were too incompetent to continue reading or if you purposely stopped when it started disagreeing with you.

      I just have to ask, why do you bother? I mean, every. single. time. you try to argue with me, you lose. Doesn't it get tiring?

      Ok, Now I'm sure you stop paying attention to the reality of life when it disagrees with you. Every single time we do this, I end up pointing out what you overlooked and completely misconstrued. How you can claim that is somehow a fault of mine is ridiculous but still a symptom of your idiocy.

      And yes, it does get tiring when I point out how irresponsibly wrong you are. At least in this situation, it was pretty simple, all I had to do was read past where you stopped.

    2. Re:Does it hurt, being as wrong as you are? by spun · · Score: 1

      Look, the term Golden Parachute refers to protections from bankruptcy. You are in a crashing plane, but you have a parachute, and it is worth a lot of money. The Golden parachute is a pre-existing obligation the company must discharge before unsecured debts. When a company goes into bankruptcy, its assets are be used to pay off as much of its debt as possible, and one of the first things to get paid off is the golden parachute of executives.

      Your link points to the FDIC, and only concerns banks operating under FDIC rules. It prohibits them from entering into 'golden parachute' type agreements, if they want FDIC protections. Now ask yourself why the FDIC would need to prohibit their use if they did not, in fact do what I claim.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    3. Re:Does it hurt, being as wrong as you are? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Wow.. You are still not reading what was in front of you?

      Look, the term Golden Parachute refers to protections from bankruptcy. You are in a crashing plane, but you have a parachute, and it is worth a lot of money. The Golden parachute is a pre-existing obligation the company must discharge before unsecured debts. When a company goes into bankruptcy, its assets are be used to pay off as much of its debt as possible, and one of the first things to get paid off is the golden parachute of executives.

      The term golden parachute was coined to mean a very excessive severance package. It has nothing to do with bankruptcy except that it's defined and forbidden until a review justifies it. Golden parachutes were originally intended to protect CEOs and management in case of non-bankruptcy take overs and the resulting loss of their jobs.

      And yes, it is a preexisting obligation that must be discharged before unsecured debt, but it also has to be justified by the judge or arbitrator assigned to the bankruptcy filings first. When a company goes into bankruptcy, it's only allowed to expend the funding absolutely necessary to maintain operations unless it is approved by a court or it's representatives with competent authority. There is no guarantee it would be honored as the bankruptcy legally violates all existing contracts and gives partial or whole compensation according to the law and the court which divides the assets around.

      Your link points to the FDIC, and only concerns banks operating under FDIC rules. It prohibits them from entering into 'golden parachute' type agreements, if they want FDIC protections.

      Don't play stupid. The link goes to the FDIC because your quoted definition did too. Sure you posted a reference from another site, but I posted the entire regulation from the source. In other words, Your entire "I'll reprint the relevant bit here, because it is such an absolute and direct refutation of your silly, uninformed opinions." was concerning that same regulation that only pertains to banks.

      Now ask yourself why the FDIC would need to prohibit their use if they did not, in fact do what I claim.

      You mean why is what you say is legal actually illegal? I don't follow. You see, if it's happening, then it's against the law. If it's not happening, then it's because it's illegal to happen. If the law was created because it happened in the past, then you are still wrong and I am still right because it's not happening now and is illegal to happen now.

      Your statement would make a lot more sense if you wrote "Now ask yourself why the FDIC would need to prohibit their use if they did not, in fact do what I claim in the past". Now this would imply that it might have happened in the past but isn't legal now which completely agrees with me.

    4. Re:Does it hurt, being as wrong as you are? by spun · · Score: 1

      No, it was not coined to mean an excessive severance package, it was coined to mean, a way out of the flaming wreckage that comes from mergers and bankruptcies.

      And yes, it is a preexisting obligation that must be discharged before unsecured debt

      Okay! Good. We're done here, nothing more to add after that.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    5. Re:Does it hurt, being as wrong as you are? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Try mergers and takeovers only.. It got defined and brought into bankruptcy because the bankruptcy law transfers ownership of the corporation which is a similar effect. The original intent of the golden parachutes was specifically to protect execs and make mergers and take overs appear unprofitable.

      Okay! Good. We're done here, nothing more to add after that.

      No, because it still doesn't mean anything you think it does. All preexisting obligations are subject to revisionism by the courts. Even when they are not in practice, it doesn't mean they will get it because other preexisting debt obligations can take precedence over the severance packages if they are even allowed. If after any mortgages, administration of the bankruptcy is taken care of an any money remains, then only compensation for employment. And compensation for employment can be limited by 502 regulations to if such claim is for services of an insider or attorney of the debtor, such claim exceeds the reasonable value of such services.

      In other words, the court specifically is charged under US bankruptcy law to determine if the compensation for services if reasonable with the value of the service provided. In this situation, the court can specifically alter golden parachute severance packages and remand them to something closer to normal pay. I think it was Chaney V unconsolidated creditors that said a severance compensation is only valid if it supplants a require minimum notice for leave and is in line with normal expenditures that wold be inured if the leave was contractually followed. In that position, they were speaking of the bankruptcy trustee firing employees without giving the contractual 2 days notice in which 2 days severance pay was determined to be appropriate. I believe it also discussed the severance of executives and management and limited their claims to similar levels leaving their severance contracts to be argued under the 502 process which could cut the packages if needed.

  62. China most powerfull country by luk3Z · · Score: 0

    China will become most powerfull country in the future. USA fail with their FED, IRS and worthless dollar.

    --
    Recipes for USA bankrupt - http://tinypaste.com/0d66f dd = dollar deluge (printed in the infinity)
  63. From the article: by mosb1000 · · Score: 1

    The new mine and processing facility will increase this amount seven-fold over the next two years, producing high-purity oxides, metals, alloys, and permanent magnets.

  64. Re:Molycorp's production is going straight to Japa by vux984 · · Score: 1

    If these workers aren't being "exploited" by someone, then they aren't working.

    "Employed" does not equal "Exploited"

  65. Re:Molycorp's production is going straight to Japa by kaatochacha · · Score: 1

    I do not think it means what you think it means. Raised wages, higher standard of living, better working conditions, how is this exploitation? Unless you're using the worldview of the noble savage, and that people in other parts are somehow being "duped" by the wily westerner, and are too stupid to notice and thus need to be protected by the other wily westerners who actually CARE.

  66. Re:Molycorp's production is going straight to Japa by khallow · · Score: 1

    "Employed" does not equal "Exploited"

    You didn't give me that impression earlier. Recall:

    Why wouldn't it be? AmericanCorporationX pays more and has better working conditions than the local businesses. So it improves the standard of living and generates wealth for unnamed 3rd world country.

    There is a reason we call it exploitation.

    I call it "employment".

  67. Re:Molycorp's production is going straight to Japa by vux984 · · Score: 1

    I call it "employment".

    If workers are poorly treated, the environment is damaged, and all the wealth flows out of the country then its also exploitative.

  68. Re:Molycorp's production is going straight to Japa by khallow · · Score: 1

    If workers are poorly treated, the environment is damaged, and all the wealth flows out of the country then its also exploitative.

    There's no evidence that multinationals contribute to the above problems any more so than local businesses. Instead, we find the opposite. Workers are treated and paid better than by local businesses; that most of the pollution is by local or local government controlled businesses; and that because a multinational is hiring people, investing in local infrastructure, and contributing to the local tax base, we find that wealth is moving into the country.

    Consider this thought experiment. Suppose some alien society with alien businesspeople discovers us and outsources some of their labor to us. From our point of view, their jobs would be awesome. You get to play with cool alien tech and they give really generous compensation. But the aliens have their own protesters who complain because we're being "exploited" with terrible 40 hour work weeks and lack of the incredibly generous benefits that the aliens have come to associated with work. Further, human society benefits greatly from the association as our society and us, personally improve with the knowledge and wealth provided by these aliens. Horrible exploitation versus fat city. Which is the real perception?

    The key is that the worker enters willingly into the contract with the multinational. The latter, to insure quality of the product and reliability of their employees, has to offer considerably better compensation (along the lines of Ford's "five dollar day"). These things are always to the benefit of the employee.

    Just as I would willingly sign up for "exploitation" by the generous alien employers so Third World workers are signing up for multinational employment. You can call it "exploitation", but the word has no meaning from the employee's point of view.

  69. Re:Molycorp's production is going straight to Japa by vux984 · · Score: 1

    Consider this thought experiment. Suppose some alien society with alien businesspeople discovers us and outsources some of their labor to us. From our point of view, their jobs would be awesome. You get to play with cool alien tech and they give really generous compensation. But the aliens have their own protesters who complain because we're being "exploited" with terrible 40 hour work weeks and lack of the incredibly generous benefits that the aliens have come to associated with work. Further, human society benefits greatly from the association as our society and us, personally improve with the knowledge and wealth provided by these aliens. Horrible exploitation versus fat city. Which is the real perception?

    Right, they ship their piles of medical/industrial/military waste, radio actives, and toxic chemicals to your earthly processing plant where you glibly crawl around on it scavenging valuable bits for your alien-corporate-masters without protection or medical coverage.

    Eventually the poisons render the entire region a desert wasteland. Earth has no regulations prohibiting this stuff, the country is nearly bankrupt anyway, and besides the leaders get to ride around on space ships and have sex with space hookers.

    You, of course still do it willingly, and are grateful for the "generous" alien employers because you need a job, and it puts food in your mouth for now.

    "Its a good thing."

    The thought experiment can get pretty ugly if you let it.

    Not all outsourcing is exploitation, but don't pretend none of it is.

  70. Re:Molycorp's production is going straight to Japa by khallow · · Score: 1

    Right, they ship their piles of medical/industrial/military waste, radio actives, and toxic chemicals to your earthly processing plant where you glibly crawl around on it scavenging valuable bits for your alien-corporate-masters without protection or medical coverage.

    Remember for the analogy with multinationals to hold, we have to remember that the alien businesses conform to the laws of the land. So the above would happen only in places where it is already legal.

  71. Re:Molycorp's production is going straight to Japa by m50d · · Score: 1

    War is almost never economically worth it. The amount of destruction caused by WW3 would outweigh any benefits that could be gained from winning. I very much doubt the US would surrender its citizenry into slavery without using nuclear weapons first.

    --
    I am trolling