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ISPs Warn Europe — Website Blocks Don't Work
Mark.JUK writes "The European Internet Services Providers Association has today warned the European Union that plans aimed at tackling online child sexual abuse content, which propose to force ISPs into adopting mandatory website blocking (censorship) technology, will not work because such methods are easy to circumvent; an ISP might cover your eyes but anybody can still take the blindfold off. Instead the EuroISPA has called for members of Parliament to consider permanently removing Internet-based child sexual abuse content at source, although this also runs into problems when the servers are based outside of your jurisdiction."
EU: You say it's impossible? Pick one: do it anyway, stop being an ISP, or go to jail. Also, you get to work out the implementation and we get to determine if you're doing it right.
No one proposes banning pawn shops and second hand shops just because these are used by the criminal element to fence stolen goods. Legitimate businesses or structures are sadly used to illicit ends. You deal with crimes as they happen, not try all manner of questionable laws that infringe on civil liberties in the vain hope that somehow you can prevent crimes from happening.
The only thing filtering will do is catch the more inept child porn producers and consumers. The smart ones have a command of the technical aspects of the networks they swap their foul evil on. The best we can hope to do with child porn, like any criminal act, is create savvy enough investigators to catch and prosecute them.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
I call this bullshit.
Look at banks. When a fake bank site goes up, it only takes hours sometimes a few days for it to be taken down after it was asked. Anywhere in the world.
But it is probably better not to take the site down, but to collect IP-addresses and so on anyway.
New things are always on the horizon
I imagine that once the technology is in place, it's use will be expanded. How long before the big copyright organisations start lobbying for laws to add major copyright infringing websites to the list, thus allowing them to finally be rid of the pirate bay?
I wish these governments would apply all the resources they spend on supressing the EVIDENCE of child abuse, on supressing the abuse itself. Instead, posession of the evidence of the crime seems to be considered the crime itself. I have to wonder what caused this state of affairs to arise and why we don't have rules criminalizing the posession of evidence of other wrongdoing.
I think we have a winner for the "why is this done in the first place when it can't do jack about child porn?" riddle.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
More and more ways to put your neighbors with open/WEP APs in trouble.
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No, any ISP-level sex blocking should pass the legal porn test. Which also means it's almost impossible to block it automatically, that's why these filters are planned to use manually updated (and probably secret) blacklists.
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The problem is identifying those sites. You generally don't have to worry a lot about major pay sites, but the smaller sites and the free sites are a different matter. Establishing the age of the individuals is really the hurdle. It's often times not any easier for law enforcement to determine that the individual is 15 rather than a young looking 18 year old.
Additionally, if you get dumped onto an index site there's no way of knowing which images are legal and which ones aren't unless they're very obviously illegal.
permanently removing internet based child sexual abuse content at source, although this also runs into problems when the servers are based outside of your jurisdiction."
No, it doesn't. This is the argument the proponents of filters are putting forward all the time. They've smartened up since we sunk their ship last, and are now claiming their goal is to "only block where we can not delete".
Well, that would be nowhere because for a year now we've been asking them the same question, and they still haven't provided an answer: "Where in the world would that be?" It turns out that child pornography is illegal in every country on earth that has any Internet infrastructure worth mentioning. An especially naive and dumb politician here in Germany threw out a few country names when the debate started, and was quickly proven wrong in addition to receiving angry comments from those countries ambassadors. Then she tried a stupid trick, claiming that in some countries (again, names were named) there was no law against child pornography. She was technically correct - the muslim countries she had mentioned consider all pornography to illegal, punishable by death, so there is no specific law mentioning children.
This whole campaign has been lies and bullshit on the side of the proponents from the start. I have yet to hear one argument from their side that is not a lie. However, they aren't dumb. They know how to play the public. They tested the waters and found them hotter than they had anticipated. But their current campaign is lot more "reasonable". In a debate, they stand a great chance of being able to convince Joe Public that they have a moderate POV that takes all eventualities into account and only wants to reserve the most drastic measure for the exceptional cases, but those freedom hippies they are the extremists and refuse to consider the possibility of evil, evil people abusing children by the thousands.
So, remember, even the "block what we can not delete" is not a balanced position, it is a strawman. The only reason that the police here in Germany does not currently contact providers outside of Germany with a simple notice "hey, you are hosting child pornography, did you know that?" - which according to tests done by an NGO last year leads to a 95% takedown rate within a week, and a 100% takedown rate within a month - is that they are not allowed to do so. Not allowed by whom? Take a guess. Yes, that is right, the same people that need their "inability" to act so they can push for "block where we can not delete".
They are lying bastards, and children are the least thing they worry about.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Here's the problem I see -- it's not that blocking sites is infeasible and ineffective, and it's not that an ISP can't do it anyways, because they can. The problem I see is that when/if an ISP does implement a censor, no matter how ineffective, it will be abused and legitimate content will be blocked for legitimate users. Child porn will still be out there, and the people who participate in that industry will at best be inconvenienced -- it's the legitimate content that accidentally or maliciously gets caught in the crossfire that concerns me. The potential for good approaches zero, and the possible harm is non-negligable. This is why it shouldn't be implemented.
You have advocated a
(x) technical (x) legislative ( ) market-based ( ) vigilante
approach to fighting online child porn (and/or pedophilia in general). Your idea will not work. Here is why it won't work. (One or more of the following may apply to your particular idea, and it may have other flaws which used to vary from country to country before a bad international agreement was made.)
(x) Pedophiles can easily use it to harvest URLs of sites containing child porn
( ) Family photo albums with bathtub photos ( ) legitimate porn sites would be affected
( ) No one will be able to find the guy or arrest him
(x) It is defenseless against brute force attacks
(x) It will stop child porn for two weeks and then we'll be stuck with it
(x) Internet users will not put up with it
( ) ISPs will not put up with it
( ) The police will not put up with it
(x) Requires too much cooperation from pedophiles
(x) Requires immediate total cooperation from everybody at once
( ) Many internet users cannot afford to lose business or alienate potential employers
( ) Pedophiles don't care about innocent people who get caught in FBI honeypots
(x) Anyone could anonymously destroy anyone else's career, business, or entire life
Specifically, your plan fails to account for
(x) Laws expressly prohibiting it
(x) Lack of centrally controlling authority for the internet
(x) Open relays in foreign countries
(x) Ease of bypassing security measures
( ) Asshats
(x) Jurisdictional problems
( ) Unpopularity of weird new taxes
( ) Public reluctance to accept weird new forms of money
(x) Huge existing software investment in (x) HTTP (x) DNS
(x) Availability of protocols other than (x) HTTP[S] (x) FTP to access the internet
( ) Willingness of users to install OS patches received by email
( ) Armies of worm riddled broadband-connected Windows boxes
(x) Eternal arms race involved in all filtering approaches
( ) Extreme profitability of "18-year-old" porn
(x) Joe jobs and/or identity theft
(x) Technically illiterate politicians
( ) Extreme stupidity on the part of people who download child porn
( ) Dishonesty on the part of pedophiles
(x) Exploitation of children which is unaffected by ISPs filtering the web
( ) Outlook
and the following philosophical objections may also apply:
(x) Ideas similar to yours are easy to come up with, yet none have ever been shown practical
( ) Any scheme based on opt-out is unacceptable
(x) HTTP headers should not be the subject of legislation
(x) Blacklists suck
( ) Whitelists suck
( ) We should be able to talk about Viagra without being censored
( ) Countermeasures should not involve wire fraud or credit card fraud
(x) Countermeasures should not involve sabotage of public networks
(x) Countermeasures must work if phased in gradually
( ) Visiting a web site should be free
(x) Why should we have to trust you and your servers?
( ) Incompatibility with open source or open source licenses
(x) Feel-good measures do nothing to solve the problem
( ) Temporary/one-time email addresses are cumbersome
(x) I don't want the government reading my internet logs
( ) Killing them that way is not slow and painful enough
Furthermore, this is what I think about you:
(x) Sorry dude, but I don't think it would work.
(x) This is a stupid idea, and you're a stupid person for suggesting it.
( ) Nice try, assh0le! I'm going to find out where you live and burn your house down!
People make the same argument about regular porn in countries where it is illegal: that if you make regular porn available then it will inflame the sexual desires of good upstanding citizens and lead to them raping people.
Unfortunately the exact opposite turns out to be true, regular porn becomes more available, rapes go down.
You want to believe.It sounds coherent, it sounds logical, it appeals to you. It's great in theory .but the data goes the other way.