Slashdot Mirror


Does the Moon Have Military Value?

MarkWhittington writes "Despite the fact that under President Barack Obama's space policy, Americans will not be going back to the moon any time soon, discussions are occurring about what, if any, military value the Earth's nearest neighbor has. Opinions, as can be expected, vary on the subject."

21 of 332 comments (clear)

  1. Whatever gets the space program more funding... by mykos · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Are you reading this, The U.S. Government? The moon is of endless strategic military value! You could be the most powerful military on earth if you had the most advanced space programs.

    Divert some of that ridiculously high military funding toward space programs, as much as you can spare!

    1. Re:Whatever gets the space program more funding... by Barny · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Funnily enough, it could very much be not just strategic but also of value as a raw source of minerals.

      It would give a military somewhere to put whatever the fuck they want:
      Dirty nukes?
      Toxic weapons?

      Not to mention the ability to do research on virus strains as weapons without any fear of the subject 'getting loose'.

      Now, throw in the fact that china are being very cagey of late about letting anyone have a share of their rare minerals and the moon becomes more use further, both for mining as well as a staging point for asteroid mining, with a much lower requirement on vehicles needing to leave its surface in regards to escape velocity.

      Give me some science reports and a few half-whacko strategists and I am sure I could write up a few hundred pages of document as to why it must be seized immediately, if only to deny 'the enemy' the chance :)

      Yeah, tons of speculation, but I have a few cups of good Earl Grey in me, there's not much else to do at this stage.

      --
      ...
      /me sighs
    2. Re:Whatever gets the space program more funding... by JWSmythe · · Score: 4, Informative

          There's a pesky thing that the US and a few other countries (those with space programs, and those who wanted to play nice with the US, Russia, and China) have ratified named the "Treaty on Principles Governing the Activities of States in the Exploration and Use of Outer Space, including the Moon and Other Celestial Bodies", or simply "Space Treaty". One of the major points of it is the agreement that no one will militarize space.

          If anyone did militarize space, it would be nasty. It would either curtail all space exploration, or cause some pretty nasty wars. All the countries with space programs are very limited to what they can do right now. We can worry about nukes raining down from space, but for as much effort is involved, it could easily be eliminated at the cost of billions of dollars and a few lives. Consider if the shuttle were completely packed with any weapons. That would be a total capacity of approximately 8,400 pounds. Sure, it saves the required fuel capacity, but it's only the equivalent of a single Trident II warhead. It would still require fuel for it's deorbit burn. It's a lot cheaper and easier to have ground, sea, and air based deployment systems in place.

          If any country were to militarize space, they wouldn't have a distinct advantage, because there are too many traditional deployment systems in place that meet or exceed the capability.

          If, for example, the US did militarize space with the space shuttle, it wouldn't be long before future missions would be under threat of being shot down. Since too many countries depend on each other to make space missions work, it's not advantageous for any of them to create such a situation.

          But hey, if it'd get humanity back into serious space missions, maybe it's not a bad idea. Being that it's been decades since a human was any farther than just orbiting the Earth, it may not be all that bad. Well, until some country sets up a space based weapons platform. We have enough problems with the existing weapons systems, do we need to even consider having any more?

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
    3. Re:Whatever gets the space program more funding... by bds1986 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If anyone did militarize space, it would be nasty. It would either curtail all space exploration, or cause some pretty nasty wars.

      It's highly unlikely militarisation of space would curtail exploration any more than militarisation of the sea curtailed exploration here on earth. As for the wars, perhaps.

      On the flip side, the military has been the driving force behind many of the great technologies humanity has developed. Aeronautics, explosives, rocketry, computing, long-distance communications, the internet, optics, nuclear power, emergency medicine, navigation, and composites, too name a few, were all either invented or rapidly matured in response to military needs. Most of these technologies then furthered peaceful means. If there's no short-term profit in developing a technology, the military is the next best bet, provided it can somehow be adapted to make killing people easier.

    4. Re:Whatever gets the space program more funding... by Kjella · · Score: 5, Insightful

      As for rare earth minerals, they're not that rare. Even the most expensive minerals only cost about $100k/kilo, meaning a $100 million dollar expedition - not even a Mars Rover - would have to bring back a ton in 100% pure form. And that needs to cover a full excavation, processing and launch system plus operating costs of such.

      Something like gold is only $3k/kilo, so more like 300+ tons. It's doubtful you could turn a profit even if there were 24 carat gold bars lying on the moon surface waiting to be picked up. Maybe someday in the future we will become far more desperate for this, but most likely it's cheaper to exploit every vein, dig up every land fill and recycle every last gram rather than try getting it from space.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    5. Re:Whatever gets the space program more funding... by c0lo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Most of these technologies then furthered peaceful means. If there's no short-term profit in developing a technology, the military is the next best bet, provided it can somehow be adapted to make killing people easier.

      Happens so only for the last 70-100 years and, again, not exclusively so: nano-technologies, genetics and Large Hadron Collider were not.

      Steam engine (the reason for being out from feudalism and stepped into industrialization) was not invented for military purposes. Printed press wasn't either.

      Even if it would be so, does it mean that we should bet always on military? Even worse, perhaps creating the needs the army need to react?

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
    6. Re:Whatever gets the space program more funding... by T-Bone-T · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The difference is that sinking a ship in the ocean doesn't hurt anything but blowing up something in orbit only turns one orbiting object into many orbiting objects. Imagine the ocean being 30 feet deep. A sunken ship is a hazard to every other ship just like a destroyed satellite is a hazard to other satellites.

  2. The moon? No. by Microlith · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Low Earth Orbit? Yes!

    Military wants the high ground, and in terms of Earth-focused warfare the most you need is LEO. Lunar puts you 3 days out at Apollo speeds, and at the bottom of a gravity well (even if it is significantly weaker.) LEO puts you over any potential target every 90 minutes and less than a day away from resupply.

    Until you've got strategically valuable positions in space between the Earth and Moon, the Moon itself will hold no value militarily.

  3. Re:Hells yea... by tm2b · · Score: 5, Funny

    Read a great quote a while back. "There are two kinds of Libertarians: those who don't know Heinlein was writing fiction, and those who don't know Ayn Rand was writing fiction."

    --
    "It is our blasphemy which has made us great, and will sustain us, and which the gods secretly admire in us." - Zelazny
  4. The moon is a harsh mistress. by symbolset · · Score: 5, Interesting

    You don't need nuclear weapons from the moon, nor toxic weapons either. Apparently the moon has a rich supply of these mysterious city-killing weapons called "rocks" which, when catapulted out of the moon's gravity well naturally fall into Earth's. The Earth's gravity operates on the mass of the rocks, accelerating them to great terminal energy - enough to look as much like nuclear weapons as makes little difference. Done with sufficient precision, or simply enough quantity, it should be more than enough force to get the Earth to capitulate. Scary thought: the entire moon is made up of these disastrous weapons of mass destruction, which require no fine art to deploy. I read a book about it once, a long time ago. Wish I could remember the title.

    Odd note of geek trivia: the "Toynbee Tiles" enigma is precisely about this.

    --
    Help stamp out iliturcy.
    1. Re:The moon is a harsh mistress. by WScottC · · Score: 4, Informative

      Rah! Rah! R.A.H

    2. Re:The moon is a harsh mistress. by Vinegar+Joe · · Score: 3, Funny

      Razing a whole town is soooooo 1945.

      But it gets your point across soooooo much better.

      --
      "The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
  5. One more - No more mutually assured destruction by ron_ivi · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If they have a self-sufficient moon base, the whole "mutually assured destruction" (MAD) theory of avoiding nuclear war with the soviets go away.

    As they described it to us -- since both the commies and the US had enough nukes to kill everyone, noone would be crazy enough to launch.

    However if one country has a colony on the moon; the whole MAD equation changes. Suddenly instead of "everyone dies", the result is "hey, if everyone on earth dies; I and my 144000 other colonists on this base will own everything!!!!"

  6. "Unsinkable Carrier" by Dails · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I am reminded of the Battle of Midway, where Midway island was thought of as an "unsinkable carrier" and the plans for defense included heavy use of the airstrips on the island. The island was also far from resupply or support. Once the battle started, the Japanese, who knew exactly where Midway was, bombed the hell out of it. The primary strength of aircraft carrier is their ability to move; when properly used they're hard to find even while employing their airpower in combat. The moon, I think, is analogous in both the unambiguous location and difficulty of resupply.

  7. Re:obligatory by Sparx139 · · Score: 3, Informative

    *force choke*

    I find your lack of original conversation disturbing.

    --
    Our culture doesn't get smarter, it just finds new ways of being retarded.
  8. Translation by Lord+Bitman · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "NASA's funding keeps getting cut, and yet we're spending trillions on war like it's nothing"
    "War, eh? We can do that in space, sure."

    --
    -- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
  9. Re:Obligatory by OeLeWaPpErKe · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Actually, if we get nuclear fusion operational, that might not be too far from the truth. An ideal fusion fuel, Helium-3, is found on the moon in absurd quantities (due to it's constant exposure to solar radiation), and can literally be scooped up from the ground (ironically the richest deposits are surface, or just-below-surface deposits : no digging required, a spoon will do).

    The advantage of Helium-3 ? It fuses without neutron radiation. This means no radioactivity has to be evacuated from the fusion reactor. You could eat the fusion products (after cooling them) and no harm would befall you.

    A small scoop of helium-3 in a fusion reactor would produce enough power to transport all of humanity off the earth (by contrast, all the oil in the world could barely move a million people into orbit).

    The helium-3 total on the moon contains enough energy, so that if released through fusion it could heat up the earth by 10.000 degrees. All the oil that ever was in the ground was barely enough to heat us (at least directly) 0.0001 degrees. And, the best part, suppose we strip-mine the entire moon blank, after 2 years we'll have another 20 cm of Helium-3 to mine.

    So it would basically mean unlimited, "renewable" (as renewable as solar power at least) energy supply for the foreseeable future.

  10. Re:Hells yea... by mangu · · Score: 4, Funny

    Great quote. Let me rephrase that: "There are two kinds of Socialists: those who don't know Karl Marx was writing fiction, and those who don't know John Maynard Keynes was writing fiction."

  11. Re:This reporter Mark Whittington by corbettw · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Everyone has biases, including reporters. The myth of objective journalism is just that, a myth. And your focus on Mr. Whittington's political leanings is nothing short of an ad hominem. Either his article and ideas have merit, or they do not. Attacking (which includes criticizing as well as simply "pointing them out") his politics is a distraction and waste of time.

    --
    God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
  12. Re:This reporter Mark Whittington by inthealpine · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Oh no not a Republican, I guess we can ignore everything he says then. Even though you point out he uses facts and draws conclusions from those facts we can't consider his point of view because he has an imaginary R at the end of his name. If you disagree with TFA then disagree with it, don't just not like someones politics and therefore dismiss TFA out of hand.

    --
    "In God We Trust, All Others Pay Cash"
  13. The "Moon": A Ridiculous Liberal Myth by spiralx · · Score: 3, Funny

    It amazes me that so many allegedly "educated" people have fallen so quickly and so hard for a fraudulent fabrication of such laughable proportions. The very idea that a gigantic ball of rock happens to orbit our planet, showing itself in neat, four-week cycles -- with the same side facing us all the time -- is ludicrous. Furthermore, it is an insult to common sense and a damnable affront to intellectual honesty and integrity. That people actually believe it is evidence that the liberals have wrested the last vestiges of control of our public school system from decent, God-fearing Americans (as if any further evidence was needed! Daddy's Roommate? God Almighty!)

    Documentaries such as Enemy of the State have accurately portrayed the elaborate, byzantine network of surveillance satellites that the liberals have sent into space to spy on law-abiding Americans. Equipped with technology developed by Handgun Control, Inc., these satellites have the ability to detect firearms from hundreds of kilometers up. That's right, neighbors .. the next time you're out in the backyard exercising your Second Amendment rights, the liberals will see it! These satellites are sensitive enough to tell the difference between a Colt .45 and a .38 Special! And when they detect you with a firearm, their computers cross-reference the address to figure out your name, and then an enormous database housed at Berkeley is updated with information about you.

    Of course, this all works fine during the day, but what about at night? Even the liberals can't control the rotation of the Earth to prevent nightfall from setting in (only Joshua was able to ask for that particular favor!) That's where the "moon" comes in. Powered by nuclear reactors, the "moon" is nothing more than an enormous balloon, emitting trillions of candlepower of gun-revealing light. Piloted by key members of the liberal community, the "moon" is strategically moved across the country, pointing out those who dare to make use of their God-given rights at night!

    Yes, I know this probably sounds paranoid and preposterous, but consider this. Despite what the revisionist historians tell you, there is no mention of the "moon" anywhere in literature or historical documents -- anywhere -- before 1950. That is when it was initially launched. When President Josef Kennedy, at the State of the Union address, proclaimed "We choose to go to the moon", he may as well have said "We choose to go to the weather balloon." The subsequent faking of a "moon" landing on national TV was the first step in a long history of the erosion of our constitutional rights by leftists in this country. No longer can we hide from our government when the sun goes down.