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N.C. Official Sics License Police On Computer Scientist For Too Good a Complaint
snsh writes "When a computer scientist in North Carolina petitioned the state for a new traffic signal in his neighborhood, a transportation official replied with a complaint about what 'appears to be engineering-level work' done by someone who is not licensed as a professional engineer." Kevin Lacy, chief traffic engineer for the state DOT, and the one who filed a complaint with the N.C. Board of Examiners for Engineers and Surveyors, protested that in trying to have Computer Scientist David Cox investigated for his detailed complaint about a traffic intersection while not licensed as a professional engineer, "I'm not trying to hush him up."
How will they deal with people who have knowledge even though they're not licensed? Next thing you know, people might start noticing cracks in bridges!
"...the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances"
Or would they prosecute you for practicing law without a license?
Than citizen volunteers who would dare to do something for free.
If you do ANYTHING that embarrasses a public official, they will retaliate. That's the kind of jackasses they are.
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
Since when is talking about technology the same as practicing without a license? Asshole in power is being an asshole.
"In prison you just have to shut your eyes and take it. Here you have to shut your eyes and give it."
Has this sort of argument been brought up before in other areas? Your complaint to the school board was well-formed, properly formatted and grammatically correct, yet you are not a board-certified English teacher. Perhaps even: You took your car to the mechanic and told him it was a quart low on oil, yet you are not a licensed mechanic.
Come on, is this is the best idea they could come up with to shut down the complaint?
Death looks every man in the face. All any man can do is look back and smile. - Marcus Aurelius
What a bunch of dipshits. Traffic is just a routing / scheduling algorithm, if anything his background in Computer Science should *help* him present his case. God, what morons. He just did all that work for you, it's not like you won't review it anyway. Suck it up and do a review. It's your *job*.
This is not a viral sig. Copy it at your peril.
So in essence, the complaint is that Cox appeared more competent than an ordinary citizen is allowed.
If Cox is found to have practiced engineering without a license, Ritter said, the likely action would be a letter telling him not to do it again."
Don't you have to accept money or be involved in some sort of contractual obligation to risk something like this? Nothing in the article indicates that Mr. Cox misled anyone. The only thing he did, from what I read, was put together a detailed OPINION of reasoning why these stop lights are needed. Granted, they hired an engineer and the engineer said it was not needed, but why is performing your own research a crime?
Also the summary is incorrect It should read:
"Kevin Asshat, chief traffic asshole for the state DOT, and the shitbag who filed a complaint, protested that in trying to have Computer Scientist and Esteemed Citizen David Cox investigated while not licensed as a professional engineer: "I'm not trying to hush him up. I'm just trying to be a tyrant and make his life miserable, because I enjoy acting like Mubarak."
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
This is some kind of absurd bureaucratic witch hunt.
Here's the form that you use to report on people suspected of practicing engineering without a license in N.C.
http://www.ncbels.org/forms/ComplaintForm.pdf
What say you that we flood them with complaints about ineptitude?
Seriously, they're investigating the guy because the report was "too good"? Since when do you need a license to be smart? It's no wonder the US is losing ground in the tech and scientific sector.
I think the Internet needs to tell the people in charge exactly how ridiculous that is. Demand an apology at the very least, if not an investigation into the people who are making these accusations.
Here's a link to get you started:
http://www.ncdot.org/
I simply do not believe the second half. There was clearly no attempt to mislead or misrepresent. If the DOT read the paper and failed to find errors, either that's a reflection on their own professional competence or they were not misled in any way. This is purely an attempt to stop citizen activism from members of a group - civil engineers - that particularly dislike any challenge from anyone outside their profession,
From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
Let me see if I got this right. The state official is concerned because a non-licensed person produced a work product that is of the quality level of a professionally licensed engineer. I was under the impression that the point of such licensing was to ensure that inferior work product was not passed off as quality engineering, yet this government official is complaining because an unlicensed person was able to produce work that looks as good as that produced by a lcensed engineer.
What is revealed is that the point of licensing in this case is to prevent people from competing with those who have been duly selected by the state. Of course, that is really the point of most government regulations, to protect certain government favored groups or businesses from competition.
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
And the award for best face palm inducing quote goes to:
I'm a software developer, if I use wireshark to discover that my ISP is up to something fishy, will I be sued for practicing network engineering without a license? If I start counting the number of pedestrians crossing a busy street in order to advocate for a crosswalk, will I be sued for for practicing civil engineering without a license?
We always knew Comcast was corrupt, here's the proof: http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1909890&cid=34545432
You do need to be a PE to design something that is going to be used to construct public works.
But that's not what he did here. What he did was lobby the government on a decisionmaking matter. Anyone can do that, using any information at all, at any time. If his design is accepted it would have to be redesigned by a PE.
What his government officials are doing to him by "investigating" him is a clear violation of his rights. No matter how they try to spin it after the fact.
What could possibly go wrong?
Yeah, let's give "the Government" LESS power instead. That way, instead of him being able to fight back and likely eventually get the traffic signals he is asking for like he's doing now, there will be no tax revenue for traffic signals to begin with. That way, instead of his chances being pretty good if he's willing to deal with the nuisance of this Lacy guy, they will be mathematically zero.
Yup, that's the answer.
I can assure you that I do Engineer-level work on a daily basis without being a licensed Engineer. In fact, you have to do such work for several years as a requirement to get that license. Some people just need something to complain about.
Common Sense isn't as Common as people think...
This is about protection of a monopoly of certified engineers ... it's not about bureaucracy, it's about crony capitalism.
Story should read:
City Engineer complains when someone gives him quality work that he must investigate instead of dismissing offhand.
In other news, consulting company looks embarrassed when non-professionals dispute shoddy work as requested by the state.
Some people's egos are so fragile they have to shit on everyone they meet to feel good about themselves.
ics
Corporately Owned
Some government bureaucrat abuses his power and numpties like this emerge from the woodwork and ascribe guilt to corporations.
You people make no sense.
Yes, who's going to be first to complain about Asshat Lacy practicing law without a license?
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
Riiiiight, so even the most extreme excesses of government regulation are the fault of capitalism? Hmm, maybe that's so - most monopolies thoughout history were government creations, come to think of it.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Big Government is a myth established by the "Republicans" to divert public funds to a very small number of very large corporations.
Exactly.
Lacy said this is the first time he has referred a case to the professional licensing board.
Right, so before this, Mr Lacy has always said "The petition is rejected because the petitioner doesn't know what he's talking about." Now Mr Lacy is trying a new way to reject a claim: "The petition is rejected because the petitioner does know what he's talking about."
Wow. With logic like that, Mr Lacy must have an easy job.
Even if i could i don't think i would get a PE licence - too much liability on what you sign off on.
The real problem here is, the PE in question is now liable if he fails to properly investigate and refute the report. Its an ego play because he doesn't want to be in a position where he's beholden to the public for failing to do his job.
I'm sorry, that's it.
America over.
The end.
All of our modern conveniences were created by engineers. Some percentage of those engineers are neurotic and controlling and completely lack social skills. We would be swimming in our own filth if it weren't for those people. What we really need are personality engineers to help them blow off steam or to feed their egos in a self contained environment. For the meantime we have the occasional Kafka moment.
postmodernsideshow.com
Or if you look at it another way, the government is enforcing the laws for the corporations - the work done by a company suggesting the traffic signal was not needed was contradicted by a personal submission. Mr Lacy is complaining that this kind of personal initiative has no place in his county.
Man who leaps off cliff jumps to conclusion.
Perhaps you are not against "all regulation." But a lot of libertarians are.
What we have here, though, is not an example of regulation. It is an example of someone deciding that being a government employee gives him the right, nay, the responsibility to act like a petty tyrant. It's got nothing to do with regulation, per se. It's abuse of power. It's very common in the U.S., and practiced by government functionaries from all parts of the political spectrum.
It's unfortunate that we the people tend to spend so much time being polarized against one another, and less time acting as citizens should: restraining abuses of power in the government that is supposed to be working for us.
Medical work is another story- it doesn't matter if you work for free, but you can't practice medicine, do surgery, etc, without a license.
I covered that" "Any level of study work (not involving actual actions or other people)".
You can study diseases, conduct lab experiments, maybe even on lab mice, write papers (good luck getting them published), etc. Study. Just don't involve other people, or take any actions that might be construed as "practicing" or do any dangerous experiments that put people at risk or involve controlled substances.
Same thing for Detective work. You might need a license to carry a gun, or sell your services as a Private Investigator. But as an individual working only for your self, you can research all you want, dig thru the net, research in libraries, check public records, call people up, and ask people questions. (Not to the point of harassment).
You can be a rocket scientist and handle things that are quite dangerous, like solid fuel rocket motors.
You can design roads and bridges, automobiles, airplanes, buildings, ships. Just can't sell them, or in some cases even build them without having them blessed by someone with credentials.
Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
Are you suggesting that (somewhere in the Insane States of America) there is a board that will sue you if you don't fuck up enough!? Because that is what you appear to have said - "The executive director of the engineers licensing board (believes there is a law) prohibiting doing engineer quality work".
To play devil's advocate for a minute, what's the difference between building a house without review, and getting an exact detailed proposal approved by a city?
Think of other similar stories that happen every day. How often do computer scientists complain about software specifications that come from the folks in marketing? Sure, they might look good at first glance, but there's almost always hidden problems. Of course, by the time those problems are noticed, the plan has been approved, and it's nearly impossible to convince management that it's a bad idea.
The same goes for any city. Once the plan's approved by the council/voters/whatever in charge, it's nearly impossible to make significant changes, even if the original plan is wrong. The concern is that by having such a detailed plan, it could be pushed through without adequate review from engineers who've had all their training.
You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.