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N.C. Official Sics License Police On Computer Scientist For Too Good a Complaint
snsh writes "When a computer scientist in North Carolina petitioned the state for a new traffic signal in his neighborhood, a transportation official replied with a complaint about what 'appears to be engineering-level work' done by someone who is not licensed as a professional engineer." Kevin Lacy, chief traffic engineer for the state DOT, and the one who filed a complaint with the N.C. Board of Examiners for Engineers and Surveyors, protested that in trying to have Computer Scientist David Cox investigated for his detailed complaint about a traffic intersection while not licensed as a professional engineer, "I'm not trying to hush him up."
I'm sorry, that's it.
America over.
The end.
How will they deal with people who have knowledge even though they're not licensed? Next thing you know, people might start noticing cracks in bridges!
"...the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances"
Or would they prosecute you for practicing law without a license?
Than citizen volunteers who would dare to do something for free.
Has this sort of argument been brought up before in other areas? Your complaint to the school board was well-formed, properly formatted and grammatically correct, yet you are not a board-certified English teacher. Perhaps even: You took your car to the mechanic and told him it was a quart low on oil, yet you are not a licensed mechanic.
Come on, is this is the best idea they could come up with to shut down the complaint?
Death looks every man in the face. All any man can do is look back and smile. - Marcus Aurelius
What a bunch of dipshits. Traffic is just a routing / scheduling algorithm, if anything his background in Computer Science should *help* him present his case. God, what morons. He just did all that work for you, it's not like you won't review it anyway. Suck it up and do a review. It's your *job*.
This is not a viral sig. Copy it at your peril.
If Cox is found to have practiced engineering without a license, Ritter said, the likely action would be a letter telling him not to do it again."
Don't you have to accept money or be involved in some sort of contractual obligation to risk something like this? Nothing in the article indicates that Mr. Cox misled anyone. The only thing he did, from what I read, was put together a detailed OPINION of reasoning why these stop lights are needed. Granted, they hired an engineer and the engineer said it was not needed, but why is performing your own research a crime?
Also the summary is incorrect It should read:
"Kevin Asshat, chief traffic asshole for the state DOT, and the shitbag who filed a complaint, protested that in trying to have Computer Scientist and Esteemed Citizen David Cox investigated while not licensed as a professional engineer: "I'm not trying to hush him up. I'm just trying to be a tyrant and make his life miserable, because I enjoy acting like Mubarak."
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
Seriously, they're investigating the guy because the report was "too good"? Since when do you need a license to be smart? It's no wonder the US is losing ground in the tech and scientific sector.
I think the Internet needs to tell the people in charge exactly how ridiculous that is. Demand an apology at the very least, if not an investigation into the people who are making these accusations.
Here's a link to get you started:
http://www.ncdot.org/
I simply do not believe the second half. There was clearly no attempt to mislead or misrepresent. If the DOT read the paper and failed to find errors, either that's a reflection on their own professional competence or they were not misled in any way. This is purely an attempt to stop citizen activism from members of a group - civil engineers - that particularly dislike any challenge from anyone outside their profession,
From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
Lol, this is great
You CAN practice engineering without a license, in fact, it's fine, you just can't sign the document " P.E. " (Professional Engineer) most engineers aren't licensed, because it is primarily used by civil engineers who are designing buildings, bridges, ect. The whole point of a P.E. is enabling you to sign off on documents, official documents that represent build plans for some government facility, or something that legally needs to have a responsible engineer. While it's good to go through the trouble of getting one (Bill Nye has his license) it only qualifies you to sign your work as John Hancock Professional Engineer, or claim to list your services as engineering services in terms of running a business.
Some companies just hire one P.E. to claim their work as engineering, cause they just need one to sign off on everything.
If it's something that's not going to put people's lives in danger if it's misdesigned (i.e. a robot, UAV, toy, printer) normally you don't even need a P.E. to do the work. P.E's are just something that at the end of the day are a legal check to sell engineering work.
and in some states I believe it's enough to just have a degree in engineering to consider yourself a professional engineer (though I know in most you must take a test to attain a license )
Here's a link to the P.E licensing board's website
http://www.nspe.org/Licensure/index.html
WHAT? Are you practising network engineering, in public, on a network, without a license?
You fell for the bait, citizen. Against the wall, you.
/Live near Raleigh, getting a kick, etc.
Well, I think the issue here is:
In most fields of engineering (electrical engineering is what I am most familiar with), there isn't a requirement for an engineer to be licensed. The PE organization would beg to differ in that regard, but in general you rarely see EEs, MechEs working in non-civil fields, etc licensed as PEs:
Within the field of civil engineering, nearly all states require any project to be signed off by a licensed civil engineer with a PE certification. In general, I believe most civil engineers need a PE certification or they simply can't function in the current regulatory environment. One should assume in this case that "engineering = civil engineering" when a civil engineer talks about engineering.
The claim here is that supposedly a non-licensed person practiced civil engineering in generating this work product. However:
1) It was not an official work product, it was a complaint to an organization that DOES contain licensed engineers
2) There were no claims made that anyone involved in the document preparation were civil engineers, licensed or otherwise
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
Government employees really need to be reminded that as a condition of being employed by the state that they are held to a higher standard and can be tossed to the wolves for stuff like this, namely:
TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 13 > 241
241. Conspiracy against rights
If two or more persons conspire to injure, oppress, threaten, or intimidate any person in any State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District in the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to him by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or because of his having so exercised the same; or
If two or more persons go in disguise on the highway, or on the premises of another, with intent to prevent or hinder his free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege so secured—
They shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and if death results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, they shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.
TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 13 > 242
242. Deprivation of rights under color of law
Whoever, under color of any law, statute, ordinance, regulation, or custom, willfully subjects any person in any State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured or protected by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or to different punishments, pains, or penalties, on account of such person being an alien, or by reason of his color, or race, than are prescribed for the punishment of citizens, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both; and if bodily injury results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include the use, attempted use, or threatened use of a dangerous weapon, explosives, or fire, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and if death results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, shall be fined under this title, or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.
Further, he has no basis for his complaint.
There is no law prohibiting doing engineer quality work unless you try to do it for money or pass it off as the work of an engineer.
You can pretty much do any level of study work (not involving actual actions or other people), as long as you don't pretend to be what you are not, use false credentials, and don't charge someone for the work.
You can design and engineer your own house from the foundation to the roof. Just don't try to build it without an actual engineer signing off on it.
Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
Typical NC bureaucracy in action. Both the DOT and the licensing board. All five of my professional licenses are issued and "supervised" by idiots who can't do the work themselves and make a living, and and the work I do under three of them are subject to review and oversight by morons who are either political hires or failed contractors with political connections. Perfect case in point. Greensboro is in Guilford county. The county has an inspection department for refrigeration work done in the county, while the city has an inspections department for refrigeration work done in the city. Both departments use the state building codes, with no amendments or other crap. What the code says is what the county/city codes are. If I install two identical walk-in coolers, one in Guilford county, and the other one 20 feet over the line and in Greensboro, and install them both in the same exact manner, one will fail. In Guilford county if the inspector sees any silicone caulk around the camlock covers (little things that look like smooth metal buttons on the walls and ceilings of walk-ins that cover where the camlock holes are at) he will fail it. Conversely, if a Greensboro city inspector, using the same state codes, does not see the caulk, he will fail it. The Electrical inspectors are the same, yet worse, as each one as their own personal likes and dislikes, and you do it their way or get failed. And if I should protest something and submit documents that I drew using standard architectural or engineering symbols, nicely plotted with all "projections" and such calculated correctly, am I going to be investigated also? Fucktard politicians now want to allow failass bureaucrats to stamp out smart people. Or hell, just plain competent people.
Exactly.
Lacy said this is the first time he has referred a case to the professional licensing board.
Right, so before this, Mr Lacy has always said "The petition is rejected because the petitioner doesn't know what he's talking about." Now Mr Lacy is trying a new way to reject a claim: "The petition is rejected because the petitioner does know what he's talking about."
Wow. With logic like that, Mr Lacy must have an easy job.