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LotR Rewritten From a Mordor Perspective

Hugh Pickens writes writes "It's been said that history is written by the winners but Laura Miller writes in Salon about a counterexample as she reviews a new version of Lord of the Rings. The Last Ring-bearer was published to acclaim in Russia by Kirill Yeskov, a paleontologist whose job is reconstructing long-extinct organisms and their way of life. Yeskov performs essentially the same feat in his book. The Last Ring-bearer is set during and after the end of the War of the Ring and told from the perspective of the losers. In Yeskov's retelling, available in translation as a free download, the wizard Gandalf is a war-monger intent on crushing the scientific and technological initiative of Mordor and its southern allies because science 'destroys the harmony of the world and dries up the souls of men' and Aragorn is depicted by Yeskov as a ruthless Machiavellian schemer who is ultimately the puppet of his wife, the elf Arwen. Sauron's citadel Barad-dur is, by contrast, described as 'that amazing city of alchemists and poets, mechanics and astronomers, philosophers and physicians, the heart of the only civilization in Middle-earth to bet on rational knowledge and bravely pitch its barely adolescent technology against ancient magic.'"

40 of 583 comments (clear)

  1. Great book by KiloByte · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's a great book, I've read it ten years ago, in the Polish translation.

    Quoting Wikipedia: "fear of the vigilant and litigious Tolkien estate has heretofore prevented its publication in English". Tell me again, how exactly copyright encourages creation of new works?

    --
    The creatures outside looked from Alt-Right to Antifa; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
    1. Re:Great book by giuseppemag · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It is published in English for free, and so far no litigations have happened. In this copyright is simply stopping this guy from taking *commercial* advantage of the huge amount of work done in creating the setting for his story.

      This said, if they decide to go after this book after all then they should be hanged by their testicles...

      --
      My book: Friendly F#, fun with game development and XNA; my game: Galaxy Wars by VSTeam; my gamedev language: Casanova.
    2. Re:Great book by snaggen · · Score: 5, Insightful

      exactly! Without copyright nothing of any quality would ever be written. It would all just be the cheap amateurish crap like shakespear and mozart. Thank god for copyright so we can enjoy good culture like die hard 4 and Britney Spears.

    3. Re:Great book by vadim_t · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Copyright is needed, but it's currently far too long.

      Tolkien has been dead and buried for 38 years now. His estate is preventing the translation from being published for what reason exactly? Where's the benefit to society from that?

    4. Re:Great book by thijsh · · Score: 5, Funny

      Oh, I know the answers: 'greed' and 'none'. I shall now claim this free PDF as my prize...

    5. Re:Great book by bunratty · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I would have to agree that the copyright and patent systems could be better. But abolishing them altogether could be disastrous. They do serve a purpose.

      Perhaps the car analogy is that thousands are killed by cars every year, but abolishing cars could be a disaster. Just because you can think of a disadvantage of something doesn't mean it's all bad and should be abolished. Too many times what I say is reduced to "X is all good" or "X is all bad". There are tradeoffs. Life isn't black and white.

      --
      What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
    6. Re:Great book by vbraga · · Score: 3, Informative

      Shakespeare had copy rights for his work!

      From the The Oxford companion to Shakespeare

      :

      The acting companies for which Shakespeare wrote held the legal copy rights to his manuscripts. Theater historians have traditionally maintained that players were reluctant to allow their plays to be printed, either because they feared losing exclusive acting rights to another company or because they believed that the sale of printed texts might reduce the demand for performances.

      I don't know about Mozart.

      --
      English is not my first language. Corrections and suggestions are welcome.
    7. Re:Great book by commodore6502 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      >>>If there was no copyright, then everyone could simply copy the works of authors and they may not end up being paid for their work.

      They aren't paid now.
      Numerous authors have to sue RIAA or MPAA-affiliated companies, just to get paid. Example: The corporation that made Lord of the Rings claimed "we made no profit" and paid the director, scriptwriter, actors, and Tolkien's family nothing. Ditto Titanic and Avatar and Forrest Gump and.....

      So explain again how copyright is "good"? These authors would be better off sticking a Paypal button in their books & asking for donations - they'd make more money than the lying asshat corporations pay them.

      --
      Information wants to be expensive AND wants to be free. So you have Value vs. Cheap distribution fighting each other.
    8. Re:Great book by mysidia · · Score: 3, Informative

      Quoting Wikipedia: "fear of the vigilant and litigious Tolkien estate has heretofore prevented its publication in English". Tell me again, how exactly copyright encourages creation of new works?

      It enables authors to profit, by actually having a market, which encourages publishers to pay authors and authors to write books, without banning any technology -- especially now; without copyright, there'd be not enough profit in publishing books.

      After limited times, meaning a short amount of time, the duration of the copyright expires, and new works can be made based on the old work. This is how copyright avoids stifling new works -- old works' copyright expires. This promotes progress in the arts and sciences because there is now not much (if any) profit in rehashing old works.

      Promoting progress means encouraging new works, and since copyright protections only apply to new works (that is: works that are so new, that they are still subject to copyright), new works are encouraged.

      You basically have 3 choices... (A) Have copyright, (B) Ban sale/possession of electronic/mechanic devices capable of copying or rendering books except by 'licensed publishers' (essentially -- personal computers would be banned), or (C) Have few/no books, because there's no profit un publishing to be made making and selling large books. The few books that could exist would be advertising supported.

    9. Re:Great book by Jason+Levine · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I agree. Lord of the Rings was first published in 1954 and 1955. According to current copyright law (assuming no extensions are passed, which is a huge assumption), the copyright will end in 2049/2050. It's been under copyright for about 56 years already and still has about 39 to go. I know the Tolkien estate profits off of Lord of the Rings, but I don't see how that encourages new works. Yes, we got the LoTR movies, but those could have been made if LoTR passed into the public domain. The only people who would lose out would be the children/grandchildren of JRR Tolkien.

      Of course, even worse is Gone With The Wind. It was published in 1936 and is still considered to be under copyright protection 75 years later. We need to wait until 2031 until it enters the Public Domain. Meanwhile, the author, Margaret Mitchell, has been dead for 62 years. Her children (if she had any, I can't find any reference to kids) would be grown up by now with grandkids of their own. Copyright was not intended to be a paycheck for your great-grandkids.

      A fair copyright term would be 20 years plus a one time 20 year renewal. (And I'm being generous as I think the ideal would be 14/14.) Under this, Lord of the Rings would have passed into the public domain in 1994/1995. In fact, under this copyright term length, anything published before 1971 would be in the public domain. How many works published prior to 1971 create substantial income for their authors (or their estates)? How many languish in obscurity because no publishing house wants to re-release them and small presses can't secure the rights to print them? How many derivative works could be made from stories that are over 40 years old (thus bringing the originals back into the public light)?

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    10. Re:Great book by Kokuyo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Whenever someone says that without copyright, nothing of value would be created anymore, I just have to think back to Pablo Picasso and all the riches he amassed through his art. After all, without copyright, everyone could have copied him and thus taken away his well deserved reward without which he would never have painted in the first place.

      Oh wait...

    11. Re:Great book by Guido+von+Guido · · Score: 5, Informative

      Shakespear was published under a regime of perpetual copyright.

      Which is why Hamlet and King Lear, among other plays, are thought to be reworkings of older plays.

      At the time England didn't have copyright laws. They did have the Stationer's Company, which was the printers' guild. In theory once a printer entered a work into the Stationer's Company Register, other printers weren't able to print a copy of that work. In practice, this wasn't well enforced, and publishers often printed works registered to other printers. The first actual copyright law didn't come until the 18th century.

    12. Re:Great book by Compaqt · · Score: 5, Informative

      >Shakespear was published under a regime of perpetual copyright.

      Well, I'm no expert, but this guy from Duke says Shakespeare was written before the "Statute of Anne" or any other copyright law:

      http://library.duke.edu/blogs/scholcomm/2011/02/18/shakespeare-and-copyright/

      --
      I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the Internet. Blog
    13. Re:Great book by bunratty · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Mozart's works were generally commissioned by the wealthy. Without copyright, we'd likely go back to a patronage system, and as a result we'd have significantly fewer books and movies. We'd have theater and music, because actors and musicians could charge audiences to see shows. We'd likely have television because broadcasters could keep shows from being copied until they were shown with ads. Books and movies, however, could be copied and distributed without money going back to the people who produced them.

      --
      What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
    14. Re:Great book by mike2R · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The point (and yes I am just parroting Lessig here) was that the Statute of Anne was the replacement for the old common law copyrights which were perpetual. The point of the Statute of Anne was to stop copyrights being perpetual in English law. That said there were none of the implications for derivative works that we have today. I'm pretty sure that while the owner of the copyright had the perpetual right to be the only one who could print copies of Shakespear's plays, anyone could perform them without licence: it was literally the right to make copies.

      --
      This sig all sigs devours
    15. Re:Great book by vadim_t · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The original owner of a work may be dead, but the franchise lives on. Shouldn't the franchise holders be protected from losing their investment to copy-cats?

      Why should they be? My idea is simply reducing the length. It would be simply the question of planning to make a profit within 14-30 years. And if you can't make a profit in 14 years they'll probably never make it, anyway.

      If George Lucas died today, should Star Wars immediately become public domain, even when there's a huge MMO and lots of movie memorabilia with full licensing and lots of money still to be made by the people who paid for the right to do so?

      No, because having copyright expire on death would provide a perverse incentive for murdering authors of famous works, like George Lucas for instance.

      Copyright should be much shorter, but it should last the same whether the creator lives or dies.

    16. Re:Great book by shikaisi · · Score: 5, Funny

      I wouldn't want to abolish it, but I'd like to make it much shorter.

      I totally agree.

      Oh, sorry, you were talking about copyright. I thought you meant Lord of the Rings.

      --
      No left turn unstoned.
    17. Re:Great book by quenda · · Score: 3, Insightful

      just say "when you've made 5M bucks off your book, it's off copyright"?

      I don't know about books, but for movies that would equate to perpetual copyright

    18. Re:Great book by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 3, Insightful

      How about just making it annual up to some maximum?

      If a copyright holder is only interested in copyright for, say, 3 years, and is so uninterested after that point that he can't even summon up the energy to deliberately release the work to the public domain (but wouldn't care if it did enter), you're still giving him 7-12 years for no good reason.

      Given that most of the economic value (and copyright is about nothing other than economic value) is realized very quickly upon publication in any given medium, most works don't need long copyrights. (E.g. a daily newspaper is fishwrap by the end of the day, a book has maybe 18 months, there being nowhere to go after a release in paperback, and movies are little more than movies of the week after 10, maybe 15 years.)

      It's really rare to have a work of long-lasting value, and we may as well design the system around the majority of works, rather than the rare, successful outliers. And the guys with the long-lived works can surely afford the more frequent renewal schedule.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    19. Re:Great book by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No.

      Which is not to say that copyright should be based around the life of the author. It should be a term of years from publication or some other fixed point in time. This makes it predictable, which is good for everyone.

      But copyright isn't intended to benefit authors or people who made deals with authors. It is intended to benefit the public. The value to authors is just a means to an end; we give them a monopoly in order to encourage them to create things that will enter the public domain, and if the work is popular, the monopoly is worth something for them to exploit.

      Ideally then, we should grant the bare minimum copyright necessary in order to get works created. Less would not be as beneficial as possible to the public, more would be superfluous and wasteful. This may not be possible on a work-by-work basis, but we can probably work out some good average numbers.

      That the work is still popular by the time the copyright runs out is no justification for granting a longer term. And why should the public only get to enjoy worthless works freely anyway?

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    20. Re:Great book by Haeleth · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Shakespear was published under a regime of perpetual copyright.

      Which is why Hamlet and King Lear, among other plays, are thought to be reworkings of older plays.

      And, in the case of Hamlet, the earliest edition is widely believed to be an unauthorized copy -- basically the 17th-century equivalent of a camcorder. There is no record whatsoever of anyone ever being sued or punished for that.

    21. Re:Great book by DMUTPeregrine · · Score: 3, Interesting

      How about this: Copyright is free and automatic for one year. After that it must be registered, for a fee of Ten dollars (to be adjusted for inflation/deflation every ten years) and renewed every year. The renewal fee shall double each year.
      1 year = free.
      2 years = $10
      3 years = $20
      4 years = $40
      5 years = $80
      6 years = 160
      etc, etc.
      At 19 years it costs over a million dollars a year. If you are making over a million dollars a year from the work society still considers it valuable in its original from. If you have not been able to make a profit in this time, then the work is clearly not profitable, and should be released to the public domain for others to improve upon.
      Unless a company is making an exponentially increasing profit such a system will put a soft cap on the length of copyright. That length will be determined by the value of the work to the creator. Furthermore, since the fees increase so much for long-held works there is a strong incentive to create many new works, rather than attempt to keep old works protected.
      I'd also like to see a GPL-like or CC-by-SA type option for a period, which would waive the fee.

      --
      Not a sentence!
    22. Re:Great book by lgw · · Score: 3, Informative

      England is a common-law regime. Most laws at that time were just writing down what the accepted common law (tradition) was, not creating new legal concepts. "Law" preceeds "statute" in just about every culture.

      There was effectively perpetual copyright in common law, but enforced IIRC through the printer's guild. That was only true copyright, however: the right to print a copy. It wasn't performance rights, derivative works, or other modern concepts under the copyright umbrella.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    23. Re:Great book by Myopic · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You have made a moral argument for copyright, which I reject. I don't pay the workmen who built my house each year that I live in it; General Motors didn't get a cut when I bought my used Jeep Liberty vehicle; I don't pay the Ginsu company a royalty every time I cut meat with its knives -- and I reject a moral argument that I "should" do so in any of those cases. For intellectual works, I feel similarly. I get up every morning and make my money by performing my craft, which is software programming, which is just like almost everybody makes their money, for performances.

      The arguments in favor of copyright which I accept are practical arguments. I want the best ongoing media creation I can have, and I support whatever laws help me get it. Some intellectual property doesn't lend itself to performance-style income, such as long-term-use-with-no-support software, or literary novels, or blockbuster movies. Because I like software, novels and movies, I support laws that help me get those things.

      The question, then, is not what do we "owe" the authors (answer: nothing) but rather what system do we need to encourage them. Do we need copyrights that last longer than two human lifetimes? I don't think we do. Do we need copyrights that preclude derivative works? I don't think we do. How about preventing collage and sampling? I don't think so. I think we can have all the benefits of copyright, and much less of the drawbacks, if we change the balances in the copyright system.

  2. Banewreaker by ShakaUVM · · Score: 4, Interesting

    If y'all are interested in this kind of fiction, Jacqueline Carey did a really good duology on it in her Banewreaker series.

    She's mostly known for steamy fantasy/romance novels (the Kushiel series), but she does a very good take on a LOTR-analogue world in which the Sauron equivalent is shown as the good guys. Or not good guys, precisely, but as more or less a guy wanting to be left alone, with the Gandalf-equivalent instigating the "good" races to destroy him in his Mordorish fortress. You really end up hating the good guys by the end of the series. =)

    I highly recommend it.

    http://www.amazon.com/Banewreaker-Sundering-Book-Jacqueline-Carey/dp/0765305216

    1. Re:Banewreaker by ShakaUVM · · Score: 5, Insightful

      >>The WW2 allies were hardly virtuous, what with fire-bombing of innocent civilians

      It's not that simple.

      Hamburg, for example, was partly in retaliation for Coventry earlier in the war. But Hitler only took the gloves off and started targeting civilians after the RAF started dropping bombs on German civilians. Why did the RAF target civilians, when the (evil) Nazis were refraining? Because the Luftwaffe had radar navigation, but the RAF thought they had the skill to astronavigate accurately enough to put bombs onto military targets. They didn't.

      Then you could get into the whole Battle of the Beams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Beams), and whether it was ethical to redirect German bombers onto English farmhouses...

      >>throwing minority Americans into death camps for the crime of having german/japanese grandparents

      I don't think you know what the words "death camps" actually mean.

    2. Re:Banewreaker by tophermeyer · · Score: 5, Informative

      You're about to be modded troll for this bit:

      throwing minority Americans into death camps for the crime of having german/japanese grandparents.

      It's untrue as it is offensive. My grandfather, an off the boat German immigrant from the early 30's, joined the US Marines and fought during the war. His family was not rounded up into camps.

      And death camps? Seriously? While the Japanese internment camps were indeed an atrocious violation of basic civil rights, they were limited to the West coast, and had living conditions a fair sight better than some other contemporary 'death' camps.

      I get your point, soldiers on both sides did some pretty horrible things. But implying that we were not better than governments engaged in active genocide is inflammatory. And as an American, incredibly offensive.

    3. Re:Banewreaker by david.given · · Score: 3, Informative

      Also, don't forget to check out Mary Gentle's Grunts, which is told from the point of view of the orcs... and who are definitely the bad guys. Oh yes.

      Hilarious and in incredibly bad taste.

  3. Interesting usenet:rec.arts.sf.written analysis by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Available here:

    http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.written/msg/697476f4e92d2483?dmode=source&output=gplain

    >Seriously though, I have read Yeskov's novel some ten years ago, when it was
    >officially published in Poland. It caused a great turmoil among die-hard
    >Tolkien's fans, who considered it "blasphemous" - not because of the
    >copyright issue, but because the good and the evil were so thoroughly
    >reverted there. Those who remember Gaiman's "Snow, Glass, Apples" should
    >understand what I mean. Personally, I liked the book, but this reversal of
    >well-established stereotypes is its main merit. Without any references to
    >Middle-Earth it would have been just a second-rate spy story/political
    >thriller, like the many clones of Frederick Forsyth.

    For my part, I'd rather read a first-rate spy story / political thriller, irregardless of the trappings or lack thereof.

  4. Life imitates art by NoZart · · Score: 4, Funny

    If that is not the best practical "in soviet russia..." joke, i don't know what is.

    1. Re:Life imitates art by Dr.+Spork · · Score: 3, Funny

      In Soviet Mordor, the ring disappears you.

  5. Re:Sounds about right by varcher · · Score: 4, Insightful

    That's the classical fantasy/SF duality.

    Quick-n-dirty how-to distinguish fantasy from science-fiction: It's not about elves vs spaceships. It's about conservatism vs progressivism.

    A fantasy book is about preserving/restoring/keeping the old order. Calamity befalls, and it's up to the heroes to repair the world. The tyrant has obtained absolute power, and your task is to topple it and restore the rightful ruler(s). The gods are angry because the people have strayed from the "path" and things go suddendly to hell.

    The sci-fi book is transformative. Change happens, and the world progresses. The old ways are discarded, the new ways begins (with their usual lot of gut-wrenching change) and life is transformed.

    (and then, you have modern hi-tech thrillers, in which big change happens, except it has no lasting consequences whatsoever. But that's a different topic)

    So, intrinsically, the Ring War in which Frodo and his merry band wins is fantasy. The Ring War in which Mordor wins would have been sci-fi.

  6. Re:Sounds about right by sourcerror · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Set against that on the sci-fi side, Star Wars fits perfectly into your description of fantasy.

    A lot of people think (me included) that Star Wars is fantasy.

  7. Re:Sounds about right by Nimey · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Wrong. The difference between SF and Fantasy is that SF *could* happen - its setting high tech. Fantasy *can't* happen - its setting requires magic of some sort.

    Why do some people have to inject their politics into everything?

    --
    Hail Eris, full of mischief...

    E pluribus sanguinem
  8. Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood and the Oz Wicked Witch by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 5, Interesting

    When I was a young child decades ago, Fred Rogers had the woman who played the Wicked Witch from the Wizard of Oz on his program. She explained how they did the scene where she melted. But she also tried to get kids to think about what things looked like from the Wicked Witch's perspective. Her sister was killed. The one keepsake was stolen. Her home was invaded. Finally, she is attacked just for defending herself and trying to get back her sister's property. And so on. It really shocked me in a good way, to think that things looked different from her point of view.

    Here is a FOSS project (Rakontu) my wife developed (I helped a small bit) to help people see situations from multiple perspectives.
        http://www.rakontu.org/

    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
  9. Re:Parent - Not A Troll by bunratty · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Because people who like to download free music and movies make themselves feel comfortable by demonizing the industry they are ripping off to make themselves feel better. It's called cognitive dissonance. Accepting my explanation as valid would lead to uncomfortable feelings, so you'll see many posters make lame arguments about my very simple and valid explanation. You can see it all the time in arguments against evolution and anthropogenic global warming and other science that people don't want to believe.

    --
    What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
  10. Re:Sounds about right by amnesia_tc · · Score: 4, Insightful

    And any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. So fantasy is actually the most sci-fi.

  11. I tried to read it by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I tried to read this a while back. I was really excited because I always was more interested in the lives of the Orcs than reading about the hicks of the Shire. My favorite scene in LotR is the two orcs talking to each other and expressing a desire to stuff this Mordor stuff and get lost in the world somewhere distant, where they can waylay passing travelers. It's the closest thing the Orcs get to being treated as characters. I was really disappointed with The Last Ringbearer. It really didn't make any sense, maybe because it was translated? I skipped ahead several times before just giving up. I had really wanted to like this book but it just didn't work.

    Of course, the whole thing ignores the fact that Sauron was evil, and he committed many evil acts in his thousands of years of existence prior to the events of LotR. Sauron was a total sociopath control freak. If he were alive today he'd be in charge of a corporation poisoning the public for profit. The entire point of his forging of The One Ring was slavery. Sauron crossed the moral event horizon and went full-on evil when he helped Morgoth destroy the land of Almaren, and that was in the First Age. Honestly, this review tells us a lot more about the reviewer that it does anything. Sample quote: "The novelist Michael Moorcock has attacked Middle-earth as a childishly rose-tinted vision of the Merrie Olde England that never was, as well as willfully blind to the hardships and injustice of preindustrial and feudal societies." WTF? It's a fantasy novel, people. It's something you read when you're not reading real books. Oh. I see. The reviewer has an axe to grind. "So I was horrified to discover that the Chronicles of Narnia, the joy of my childhood and the cornerstone of my imaginative life, were really just the doctrines of the Church in disguise." Yeah, surprise surprise, lady. No wonder she sees racial demonization, it's what she's looking for. Yet another writer who can't write anything original and instead can only parody others. That's the greatest failing of The Last Ringbearer. If the author had something to say, great! Say it. But jeez it's pathetic when the only thing you can do is attach another author's name to your work while criticizing the shit out of it. Am I the only one who is utterly sick to death of sequels, rewrites, spinoffs, and reimaginings? I suppose so if that's what everyone is buying. Can't argue with the market.

    --
    Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
  12. Mordor Perspective... by Landshark17 · · Score: 3, Funny

    You can read the story from the perspecive of Mordor if you like, but I'm still waiting for a version of the original LOTR that removes the offensive word "hobbit" and replaces it with the more politically correct, "large-footed halfling".

    --
    This sig is false.
  13. Tolkein is dead by Quila · · Score: 3, Insightful

    He can't write any more. No amount of compensation will convince Tolkein to do anymore work.

    So why should the copyright still exist on his work?