Slashdot Mirror

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

Microsoft Rewarding Employees Who Phone It In

Posted by ryuzaki0 on from the have-a-couple-bucks dept.

theodp writes "For developers who are all about the Benjamins, Microsoft has come up with an intriguing alternative to Google's vaunted 20% time. To boost the number of Windows Phone 7 apps, Microsoft has relaxed a strict rule and will let employees moonlight and keep the resulting intellectual property and 70% of the revenue, as long as that second job is writing apps for WP7-based devices. The rule change offers an option for employees who don't want to leave for the insecurity of a start-up, but still want a shot at recognition and rewards for their own ideas."

24 of 280 comments (clear)

  1. Wow! by beaviz · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Microsoft has relaxed a strict rule and will let employees moonlight and keep the resulting intellectual property

    A company letting their employees do what the want in their own free time. They deserve the Nobel peace price!

    Seriously, is it common (in the states) to "own" your employees even when they are not at work?

    1. Re:Wow! by mfh · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Seriously, is it common (in the states) to "own" your employees even when they are not at work?

      You would be surprised, but yes it is very common for companies to claim IP over things created even when an employee is doing them on their own free time. Companies argue that exposure to their policies arguably enabled the person to create the product, service or technology... which is wrong in my opinion but it still happens. I think that if you work for a company and there aren't explicit agreements in place you are protected in most states but you should definitely check first before starting up something awesome.

      This is bad for all of us because it slows down the invention of new things to the angular flow rate of cold molasses.

      --
      The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
    2. Re:Wow! by Giometrix · · Score: 4, Informative

      Microsoft has relaxed a strict rule and will let employees moonlight and keep the resulting intellectual property

      A company letting their employees do what the want in their own free time. They deserve the Nobel peace price!

      Seriously, is it common (in the states) to "own" your employees even when they are not at work?

      This is absolutely the norm. Some places are worse than others, making you sign a "everything you do belongs to us" agreement (how enforceable that is I don't know, IANAL). Most places just don't want you to compete with them, so anything you do on your time related to their industry belongs to them. In this case we're talking software, so MS is relaxing that restriction for wp7 apps.

      --
      Download free e-books, lectures, and tutorials at bookgoldmine.com
    3. Re:Wow! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I had to look into this when my previous employer wanted to change the contracts.

      Basically they added a catch all, anything you think or do belongs to us (first borns included). So if you are programmer but come up with a new clothes line peg they own the IP.

      The actual law is actually more sensible, if you come up with something you'd be expected to do in your job the company owns the IP, otherwise you do. For instance as a programmer if I come up with a new piece of software the company could argue it is their IP, but if I make and sell some artwork I own it.

      All been said it is a bit of a grey area and getting it tested in court would be expensive for any normal person.

      Captcha:Stolen :)

    4. Re:Wow! by Dunbal · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A company letting their employees do what the want in their own free time.

      You must have missed the "as long as that second job is writing apps for WP7-based devices" part. That is not "letting people do what they want". In fact, it places a fairly strict boundary.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    5. Re:Wow! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If the company name was anything other than microsoft it would recieve nothing but praise.

    6. Re:Wow! by arkenian · · Score: 4, Informative

      Seriously, is it common (in the states) to "own" your employees even when they are not at work?

      You would be surprised, but yes it is very common for companies to claim IP over things created even when an employee is doing them on their own free time. Companies argue that exposure to their policies arguably enabled the person to create the product, service or technology... which is wrong in my opinion but it still happens. I think that if you work for a company and there aren't explicit agreements in place you are protected in most states but you should definitely check first before starting up something awesome.

      This is bad for all of us because it slows down the invention of new things to the angular flow rate of cold molasses.

      To be fair, most employment contracts I've read are a little more specific than that. Specifically they own any IP on anything related to the work you do for them, fairly broadly defined. This tends to mean that, if you work at microsoft, any software you wrote would be covered. But if you wrote a novel, that would not be covered. Actually, the way I read the ones I've signed, they're more on the order of noncompete agreements than the company making any claims as to why you were able to do it. They don't care why, as part of your employment you agree not to compete with their products. The best way to PREVENT you from competing with them is that, if you do, they own it anyway. Likewise I'm forbidden from providing consulting services to competitors etc.

    7. Re:Wow! by billcopc · · Score: 4, Funny

      People sign this shit, because: 99% of people out there are uncreative and just do whatever is needed to get a paycheck.

      Do you honestly think that design-by-committee Java guy next to you has even the slightest spark of inspiration ? He probably can't even get it up without writing 4 support interfaces that describe the various ways one can (choose not to) interact with his cock.

      --
      -Billco, Fnarg.com
    8. Re:Wow! by mfh · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I think you're interpreting that too broadly. If they own the IP of the work you do for them, they own software you were ordered to create on company time. If they don't order it and you create it on your own time and it's different enough than what you're doing then it should be your property. But MSFT assumes if you do some software you got the idea from them, when in fact it could have been your own idea. They keep this water muddy intentionally, even if it appears to be spelled out properly. Watch what happens when someone codes something they want to launch... 70% of the profits? Yeah right. They would try to buy you out or create something that oversteps your prior art and merely bypass you. They have heavy feet.

      --
      The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
    9. Re:Wow! by magical+liopleurodon · · Score: 5, Informative

      1)They find reading legal documents difficult
      2)They really want a job,and so are will to sacrifice for it,
      3) They aren't all that creative and don't have enough free time at home anyways.

      1) It's pretty obvious that you're signing your soul away. I signed one of these myself, but they're not valid in Minnesota. A number of states don't allow this. California is another one where even if you sign something like this, it cannot be enforced.

      And people actually sign this shit, that is the problem. It works against you because if you don't sign it, they throw you out. If EVERYONE refuses to sign it, the company is the one who is fucked.

      So many companies do this. If you're not in a state where it's unenforceable, the only leverage you have is starting your own company. Which I encourage, and when you all do do that, don't make your employees sign contracts like this.

    10. Re:Wow! by Lehk228 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This is yet another example of why programmers especially, but really all tech workers, would benefit from a union, but crony capitalist propaganda keeps people convinced that a union would lower their pay and benefits, despite mountains of evidence to the contrary, workers get better pay and working conditions in a unionized environment.

      everyone likes to consider themselves better at everything, so they think they can negotiate better for their own pay, but really who will do better, one guy who needs to pay his mortgage next month vs. a company who can keep a position open as long as they need to, and just keep leaning on the other programmers to make up the slack, since THEY need to pay their mortgage too, they shut up and put in their 70-80 hour/week deathmarch.

      the reality of the situation is, even if you are in the top 10% of programmers, you are not going to also be in the top 10% of negotiators AND be in a position to hold out for as long as it takes to get compensation that is appropriate to the value you bring to the company.

      --
      Snowden and Manning are heroes.
    11. Re:Wow! by PopeRatzo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If they don't order it and you create it on your own time and it's different enough than what you're doing then it should be your property.

      That won't matter if the lawyers for the company you work for make it impossible for you to profit from "your property" or if the legal costs wipe out any possible profit.

      I think the intellectual property laws are as likely to hinder innovation than encourage it. That's usually the signal when a law needs to be repealed or changed. When when a law actually encourages lawless behavior, and results in rewarding criminal behavior, as in the drug laws, it's probably ripe for change or repeal. Considering that IP laws make criminals out of tens of millions of Americans and probably hundreds of millions of people worldwide, you have to wonder what benefit these laws provide in the first place.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    12. Re:Wow! by Lashat · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This is not an attempt by Microsoft to co-op and then take over Windows Phone 7 apps that their employees develop. Microsoft wants WP7 apps to be developed and get to the consumer thus promoting the WP7 os and devices. Everyone know that the combination of devices ability and available apps are going to decide the smartphone os wars.

      Usually, any MS employee would be hamstrung by the blanket IP policy, which is narrow enough that a novel would not be covered, but any Windows realated code would. The new policies rally the MS troops with deepest access to WP7 source with incentive to develop specifically for the platform. Also, worth a mention is the fact that app approval process will be greased by MS 30% interest. The resulting apps will have a much better chance of making it to the consumer.

      --
      For every benefit you receive a tax is levied. - Ralph Waldo Emerson
    13. Re:Wow! by Znork · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The new policies rally the MS troops with deepest access to WP7 source with incentive to develop specifically for the platform.

      Ah, yes, the incentive of taking 30% of the profit the employee makes on his own time. What's next, encouraging employee stock ownership by only requiring 30% repayment to the company of any profits (excepted upper management of course)?

      The humorous part is that management probably thinks employees should be grateful for such incentive, while it will only serve to educate the employees that their contracts shaft them, reducing morale and certainly not creating a desire to work for free in their spare time.

      Microsoft seems more out of touch every year, and this certainly won't help windows mobile. Poor Nokia.

    14. Re:Wow! by VertigoAce · · Score: 5, Informative

      The 30% is the cut that Microsoft takes from every app on the WP7 marketplace (same as Apple does with their app store). Employees get the same 70% that third party developers get.

      The people I work with had the opposite reaction from what you suggest. The policy removed the uncertainty around moonlighting in this case and encouraged people to start developing apps. I don't think this would have been against policy in any case, but most employees aren't going to spend the time talking to their manager, legal, and HR just to get approval to release a $0.99 app.

    15. Re:Wow! by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I don't buy this concept in most cases, including the one involving the ratchet, with which I am somewhat familiar.

      The guy could have gotten the same idea from simply disassembling a socket wrench in his garage, or just from general knowledge about how they are built. I doubt that it takes years of work in a wrench factory to really have such ideas.

      My father worked for a carpet manufacturer once, teaching them how to install their own carpet (which was physically different from other brands). He was a leader and innovator in the field... he taught himself how to do it better than anyone else when they first started manufacturing the stuff.

      He invented a new kind of tool for trimming the carpet around the edges during installation (where it meets the wall). It saved a lot of time and effort. But his contract said that any inventions he made while in their employ would belong to them.

      That would be understandable if the company had really taught him the knowledge to do the job... but in fact HE was teaching THEM, and they had no part whatever in the invention of this tool. So they got ownership of it, manufactured and sold it, and he got nothing.

      I think scenarios like that are more common than many people think. Or at least where the company contributed little or nothing to the actual idea or its implementation, and doesn't deserve to own it.

  2. sounds generous, until by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    You rephrase it the other way: "Go ahead and start a business in your free time, as long as you're getting all your work done here including meeting time and face time. Oh, but that business has to be for Windows Phone 7 apps, and we'll take 30 percent."

  3. Re:70% if the revenue? by Dunbal · · Score: 4, Funny

    watching 'the biggest looser' on TV

    Is that the show about people who go around with a wrench and screwdriver and work on loosening nuts and screws, or what? Reality TV at it's finest. Loser.

    --
    Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
  4. Re:70% if the revenue? by rainmouse · · Score: 3, Insightful

    >Microsoft then take a further 30% of this, $21, because I work for them... Leaving me with just $49

    BASTARDS

    When you work for a software company, the norm is to take complete ownership of any related software you create in your spare time, the idea is that so you cant just steal company secrets and sell them in the form of your own products. In practice its a way of completely owning their staff as though they were property (assets is the word they like to use), I have even seen contracts that stipulate ownership of the content of your dreams; however enforcing such dubious practices is another matter....

  5. Re:Bribe by jeffgeno · · Score: 3, Informative
    The tools are free. You just have to pay to get your apps listed in the marketplace. $100 a year for up tp 100 apps.

    http://phone.microsoftplatformready.com/?CR_CC=200001192&WT.srch=1&CR_SCC=200001192&WT.srch=1

  6. Not really. by Penguinisto · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If Apple announced this, world+dog would deride them for the app restriction, claiming long and loud how 'Lord Jobs' is keeping tight rein over the 'peasants' in his 'domain'.

    If RIM Announced this, world+dog would collectively yawn, save for some folks who would stand back in astonishment that the Blackberry actually had apps*

    If Google announced this, world+dog would think it was normal, and point to that 20% thing they have.

    --

    Personally, I see it as Microsoft casting about to bolster its struggling product in any way that it can. They're having a pretty rough go of it, judging by the numbers so far. To give you an idea, I'm willing to wager that WP7 still has more phones in the channel than in customer hands... and there's very little prospect so far that WP 7 will do much more than eke out a presence this year, if they're lucky.

    * (they do have apps BTW - I have/use a BB Bold).

    --
    Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
  7. Yeah a great alternative by nedlohs · · Score: 4, Insightful

    For 20% of your company work time you can work on something still company related but of your choosing rather than dictated by your manager.

    versus.

    You can work on stuff related to the company's product on your own personal time at your own cost and you bear all the risk, but the company will have 30% of the revenue. Oh, and we'll give you a slice of pizza once a week.

  8. 20% time? Not really by adenied · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Someone from Google can correct me if I'm really wrong here, but I've asked a number of Google developers if they really get to use their 20% time. The general answers have been either "Yeah right. Hardly anyone does." to "Sure! I can use 20% of the 60-70 hours a week I regularly am at the campus on whatever I want."

    Not sure if that's really what people think about when they hear about the 20% time philosophy. Seems like it's more of a marketing / recruiting thing.

  9. Straightforward with some gray areas. by Aquitaine · · Score: 4, Insightful

    There are obviously shops out there that try to say that they own everything the employee does. In most places this is not legal and even if it is, you're an idiot to sign them.

    I run a shop that does youth sports management web applications. The only time I care about what my employees doing in their spare time is when it's directly relevant to their job. If you work for me and then you turn around and write your own youth sports application in your spare time, I'm going to sue your pants off because you have access to our code, our libraries, our ideas, and our clients' business needs and you can't pretend that you aren't using any of those things in your new and competing product.

    But if you write a game or a web app that clearly has got nothing to do with your job, such that the only tenuous connection I can establish between your work for us and your free time project is that you became a more competent programmer while working for us, that's awesome for you and good for us because it means you're improving yourself and making an extra buck. If you make so many extra bucks on the side that you quit your job, well that sucks for me, but you earned it.

    There are definitely some gray areas here. Like what if you start working in your spare time on an app that competes with us and then quit your job a month later? Then you get the 'hair salon migration rule' - if you took our stuff (even our abstract stuff) or solicit any of our clients to leave with you, then we go to court. But let's say you quit your job because you think the company sucks or that I'm a jerk and then a year later you start working on a competing product. Forget the law for a moment -- what does your gut tell you is the right answer here? For me, if you've been gone for a year, the only connection between what you're doing now with what you did for us a year ago is that you clearly learned a lot about the business from us, but unless you actually swiped any of our code, 'knowing how the business works' is not a crime. I don't want to police what you do after you stop working for us unless there's a very real concern that you've stolen our mojo.

    The analogy to what MS is doing also seems to be a little bit of a gray area. Our company makes niche software so there's not a huge sphere of relevant work out there. but if your job for MS is WM7 development, that's a bit different. It's tough for you to say that your free time WM7 development has got nothing to do with your professional WM7 development, and MS is basically saying that we'll compromise with you -- rather than having to figure out (probably in court) whether or not your work is yours, theirs, or a conflict of interest, they're just saying 'go do what you want, and if what you want happens to be similar to your day job, we'll sign off on it and let you keep most of the revenue.'

    From a business perspective, that seems pretty reasonable to me.