AMD Bulldozer Will Bring Socket Shift To PCs

An anonymous reader writes "One of the most dreaded hurdles on the PC upgrade path is the CPU socket. If socket design changes then you'll almost certainly need a new motherboard when you do upgrade. This is an area where AMD has historically been much better than Intel. Intel tends to change sockets with each generation of CPU — currently there are three types out there, LGA 1155 for Sandy Bridge, LGA 1156 for first generation core and LGA 1366 for the performance Core i7 processors. AMD on the other hand has always tried to keep sockets across generations. When it releases its new Bulldozer core desktop processors later this year AMD is having to make a socket shift from the current AM3 socket to a new one called AM3+. This article discusses the change, issues like backwards compatibility and what the industry is doing to prepare for the socket shift."

Comments

Is it necessary?

[colinrichardday]

Perhaps you can only maintain backward compatibility so far.

Re:Is it necessary?

[stonedcat]

In this economy why would you replace instead of upgrading when it's possible?

Re:Is it necessary?

[LordLimecat]

Makes a difference to me; I have a 5 year old core2 system (E6300) that is generally just fine; 4GB of ram suits my needs as does the graphics card, and the drives are configured as I like.

Unfortunately, I cant shift either motherboard or processor without swapping the other, and its kind of obnoxious...

Re:Is it necessary?

[oh_my_080980980]

Yes well when some of us don't have money to throw around and have invested in PSU, Memory, etc., being able to swap out CPU saves ALOT of money.

Re:Is it necessary?

[SeNtM]

Affordable is relative. I have experienced a 50% reduction in income over the last 2 years plus the unemployment of my wife. Dropping $500-$1500 on a system 2-3 years ago would have been easily accomplished after a weeks worth of income...now I would have save for about six months for the low end components. I think most people are in this boat...

Re:Is it necessary?

[beelsebob]

Not only is it not necessary, it's also not true that AMD have been better – AMD have been releasing a new socket with each CPU arch... they've just not been releasing any new CPU archs!

I've always had to upgrade my MB

[elrous0]

I've built a lot of computers and have never once reused a motherboard. MB cost is trivial and usually comes with improvements--such as a faster FSB/more memory slots, etc. So even if my old MB could accept my new CPU, I would probably still buy one. And since I stopped gaming, I upgrade so rarely now that my old MB almost never supports the new CPU anyway.

Are there really people out there who upgrade their CPU's so often that this is even an issue?

Re:I've always had to upgrade my MB

[MightyMartian]

No kidding. To my mind RAM compatibility is probably a bigger issue.

Re:I've always had to upgrade my MB

[CynicTheHedgehog]

As soon as Bulldozer hits I plan on getting a dirt-cheap Phenom II X6 to replace my Athlon II X4 ... which will go back my old motherboard to make a new system for my kids ...

So a delayed upgrade, and still a 1:1 ratio of motherboard-to-CPU, but an upgrade nonetheless...

Re:I've always had to upgrade my MB

[oh_my_080980980]

Which is why you typically don't throw out your motherboard because a new board invariably means you have to buy new ram.

Re:I've always had to upgrade my MB

[smelch]

CPU fans, my god is there anything worse? I'm in here, between six important looking capacitors, with a screw driver on a tiny lip of metal, leaning all my weight on it. How is this a good idea?

I have upgraded several CPUs without switching out the motherboard but not lately. I've also switched out motherboards without getting a new CPU. Example: one time my case got some snow in it. I let it all dry out and the motherboard was the only thing that needed to be replaced.

Re:I've always had to upgrade my MB

[vlm]

Are there really people out there who upgrade their CPU's so often that this is even an issue?

Since the early 90s my game plan has always been two step upgrades... buy the newest MB with the cheapest slowest CPU available (usually pretty good anyway). Then when the fastest CPU available is cheap (because its pseudo obsolete) I buy that chip and install it on the MB. Over the years I've had plenty of fun... Some boards need to have the BIOS flashed to support the most recent CPUs...

Looks like the price of AM3 CPUs will be collapsing in the next couple months, so I'll be upgrading the CPU.

In a couple years or so, lets say late 2012, I'll buy a fancy new "bulldoze" motherboard and the cheapest CPU available for it...

Re:I've always had to upgrade my MB

[Pentium100]

The worst shift that I remember was AGP to PCIe - you have to buy new video card if you want a new motherboard (or better, buy a new CPU, replace MB, RAM and VGA just to be compatible) and gaming cards are not cheap. At least with ISA/PCI/AGP you could still use the old card while you save the money for a new one. While I have a few AGP video cards laying around, if my PCIe VGA failed, until I repair it or buy a new one, I'd have to use a PCI VGA made in 1995.

Re:I've always had to upgrade my MB

[Pentium100]

Depends on the fan/heatsink.

I usually use Zalman coolers that attach to the motherboard by screws (though you need to attach a new backplate to the motherboard so it's PITA if the computer is already built) and are quite good at cooling, but a bit expensive.

Re:I've always had to upgrade my MB

[grimsweep]

ASRock actually had a solution to this that I owned, known as the 939Dual-VSTA, which offered both fullspeed AGP and PCIe slots. Despite what you might think, it was a shockingly stable board that survived tortuous sessions of Planetside and several amateur computing experiments. It eased my transition to PCIe while even providing an upgrade path to AM2 cores.

Sadly, it wasn't really available until a good time after PCIe began to go mainstream.

Re:I've always had to upgrade my MB

[PoorCoder]

Late 2012? Oh... Don't forget something really big is going to happen by then.

No user-serviceable parts inside

[Animats]

Nobody really replaces CPUs. As of a few years ago, 80% of desktop machines were never opened during their lifetime. That's probably higher now, and higher still for laptops.

Re:No user-serviceable parts inside

[SimonUK]

BS. If no one replaced CPUs, why do they still sell them Seperately? If no one makes or go's inside of computers. Why are all the parts still available.

Re:No user-serviceable parts inside

[Wyatt Earp]

I replaced the CPU three times in my G3 Minitower Mac.

From a 233 MHz to 366 to a 433 over the years.

Re:No user-serviceable parts inside

[ThatMegathronDude]

There's still a market for enthusiasts that build their own machines from parts. You get exactly what you want that way. That's how I get new machines. Granted, I rarely upgrade a CPU without building a new box; I do tend to upgrade video card/memory at least once before I send an old gaming box to a family member.

Re:No user-serviceable parts inside

[Mister Whirly]

You do realize that if 80% of desktops have not been opened/modified, that means that 20% have been. That is who the separate CPUs are sold for. That and the big desktop manufacturers - Dell, HP, etc. who could not possibly afford to replace the entire desktop on a warrantied system, and will actually replace the components that fail. Sometimes these are CPUs. (Don't fall into the Slashdot trap thinking that the general public likes to actively mess around inside the guts of their computer systems.)

Re:No user-serviceable parts inside

[frosty_tsm]

There's still a market for enthusiasts that build their own machines from parts. You get exactly what you want that way. That's how I get new machines. Granted, I rarely upgrade a CPU without building a new box; I do tend to upgrade video card/memory at least once before I send an old gaming box to a family member.

This describes me pretty well. I want to pick specific components and features (which Intel processor, which graphics and SATA support, etc).

I have no interest in buying an off-the-shelf box with a motherboard and components picked amongst the lowest bidders paired with the most expensive Intel CPU available. I get a either a bare-bones system or motherboard combo from mwave (paying $10 for them to assemble and test), and I can upgrade to a screamer of a machine for $500 + graphics card (last time that was $300 for a near-top-of-the-line).

Re:No user-serviceable parts inside

[sandytaru]

Yup, this. My last system was $370 for all parts including a mid-line GPU. I'm waiting until the older Intel SSDs to drop in price when the new ones are released, then I'll add that into the system, probably bringing it to a total of $400 for a machine that kicks the butt of any brand name PC sold in stores for twice the price. Couldn't have done it without being able to handpick my CPU and mobo.

Re:No user-serviceable parts inside

[Wyatt Earp]

Did you read parent post?

"Nobody really replaces CPUs."

Well I have, thats what it has to do with the topic.

Re:No user-serviceable parts inside

[element-o.p.]

Admittedly, you said "desktops", but I've got a counter-example for you.

Where I work, we recently were trying to figure out what to do with a quartet of older, out-of-warranty Dell PE2970 servers. They were perfectly good servers, but they were no longer covered under a maintenance contract, so using them for mission-critical services was rather like playing Russian roulette. They might last for another decade, or they might die tomorrow, and if they were to die tomorrow, we would have down time while performing an emergency migration to a new physical host.

However, we had just built a new virtual server pool with a smoking-fast SAN on the back-end, and it occurred to us that these PE2970s would be great as a second pool of servers. This would allow us to continue to use these servers, rather than replace them with new hardware. The machines would be out of warranty so a hardware failure still means we have a physical machine down, but with four of them and with Xen's ability to move virtual machines between physical hosts in a server pool, a catastrophic failure of a physical host would only mean dropping a couple of packets until the virtual host was running on another physical machine (we've tested it, and it works as advertised).

But there's a catch: Xen will only allow you to create a pool of servers that share the exact same type of CPU. Unfortunately, each of the 2970s had a different AMD CPU, so we bought three of the fastest CPU that was still available (a 2387, IIRC) and upgraded the three different machines.

Parent is goatse

[sideslash]

Mod down, please.

A fucking waste

[Anonymous Coward]

Agree. Who really cares anyways? Computers are so affordable that buying a whole new set instead of just upgrading only the CPU is normal fare.

It's a goddamn waste, though. It's sickening to throw out all that electronics, metal, and otherwise pretty good hardware just because someone wants to upgrade or because a component died.

At least with computers we have some choice. The other day, a pump went out on my pressure washer. Pump: $249. New pressure washer: $259 - WTF! So, I either pay out the ass for a new pump, or chuck out a perfectly good engine, frame, hose, nozzle, etc ...

OR Norelco electric shaver. New: $40. Replacement blades: $32. WTF!!!

I tell ya, our consumerist disposable society is really getting out of fucking hand.

And I'll refrain from the pollution and filling landfills with our disposable products.

I've stopped buying that shit - No more consumer electronics because it is THE worst offender.

Re:A fucking waste

[hairyfeet]

I thought that was what GFs are for? Every once in awhile my GF will take one look and say "too shaggy" and drag my to some stylist where she'll stand next to the gal telling them just how she wants things done, then for a week or so she'll be constantly running her fingers through my hair or playing with it. It makes her happy, as long as I'm not bald I couldn't care less, it works out nicely.

As for TFA in this case AMD had no choice as the new chips are NOT CPUs but APUs, which have a low to midrange GPU built in, which means it needs interconnects which simply don't exist on AM2+/AM3. Considering how many chips are out for the AM2/AM2+/AM3 platform I'm happy, and my customers sure as hell ain't complaining with $100 quads and $75 triples.

I personally think the big change is the fact that for a good 80% of the population PCs passed "good enough" when we hit duals. For FB, movies, light gaming, etc there just isn't as big a reason to upgrade as in the past during the MHz wars, and once the customer gets an AMD triple they really won't see any big gains by going quad or 6 core, simply because the jobs they have don't really slam even the dual.

That is why I think they purposely build laptops to be giant piles of shit, as it keeps people that frankly wouldn't have any reason otherwise buying new PCs. That is why I stress to my customers to have a decent desktop and buy the cheapest POS laptop they can find, as they are gonna have to shitcan it anyway. The parts to repair one are often more expensive than simply buying a new, just another big pile of eWaste created to keep people on the treadmill.

Re:Erm... nothing?

[angiasaa]

"the industry" is motherboard manufacturers, RAM manufacturers, etc..
Seriously speaking, there are very very few hobbyists would even think of building their own motherboards.

They merely buy stuff off the shelf and put it together. They're the consumers, not the industry.

Thank you for listening. :)

No kidding

[Sycraft-fu]

I think it is more done out of a "Here's something we offer that Intel doesn't," and maybe an attempt to appeal to the budget oriented crowd that tend to buy AMD.

Realistically, you probably want to upgrade your board when you upgrade your CPU. There are all kinds of new technologies that come along, not just faster CPUs.

For example I just upgraded my system from a Q9550 to an i7-2600k. Now of course I had to upgrade the board just because the socket changed, but I would have wanted to anyhow. Off the top of my head, here's the new things my new board gives me:

1) DDR3 RAM. It has doubled the measured memory speed in my system. That matters a lot for a faster CPU, I'd not get nearly so much benefit stuck on DDR2.

2) USB 3. I currently have no devices that use it, but the industry seems real interested and I think it is safe to assume I'll be getting some soon.

3) SATA 3. Again, no big deal right now but I can see getting an SSD in a year or two and it would be useful then.

4) UEFI. Much more capable than an old BIOS. My particular board has a full command line built in you can boot to for doing diags and so on.

The board upgrade was well worth it, particularly the memory. No sense in staying on slower RAM when getting a high end CPU. That just hamstrings things.

Really, it is likely a waste of money to upgrade your CPU more than once every 2-4 years and in that time enough will change that you'll really want a new board anyhow.

For that matter, you could end up needing one anyhow, even if the socket was the same. A new architecture can require a new chipset and new voltage regulators which would need a new mobo, even if the socket happened to be the same.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with using the same socket, but I don't much care if it changes either.

Not all it's cracked up to be

[MBGMorden]

AMD's socket's might carry the same numbers, but the sockets don't always work all that readily. Often seems to be the fault of the motherboard maker, but I've had plenty instances where I bought a new chip only to find out that my mobo, though having a socket that is support by the chip, doesn't support chips of that power draw, or made at a certainly transistor size, or just past a certain point in manufacturing.

In the end, it's less hassle to just replace the board when you replace the chip either way. In my groggy old age (only 29, but I feel pretty old in computer terms :)) I just don't care about overclocking and whatnot anymore, and if you just want a barebones "plug it in and work at stock settings" board you can usually get one for under $50.

Re:Sockets

[h4rr4r]

Please to post a link to this socket 423 or 478 or 778 to modern socket adapter.

Re:It is

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

This is especially likely now that memory controllers and GPUs and other formerly-motherboard components are now sharing a die, or at least a package, with the CPU. The latency savings cannot be denied; but it does mean that the CPU package needs rather more pins/lands than it otherwise would, and increases the number of things that can make a given socket design either fully obsolete or 'works; but not as designed'.

There is certainly a point past which changing sockets all the time is just about extracting rents; but there are plenty of reasons why a a new CPU design might either require a new socket, or be sufficiently poorly supported by the old one that buying a new CPU for an old motherboard wouldn't increase performance.

That's why I keep buying AMD

[acid06]

It may be silly but this is the sort of thing that makes me keep buying AMD. It shows they still respect their "power users".

I bought an Asus M2N-E motherboard several years ago for a single core Athlon 64 processor. Today, this same motherboard runs a Phenom X4 processor. And it will still hopefully serve other family members for some years when I finally switch it.

It may be silly, but I believe that all those "green aficionados" should be congratulating AMD. While Intel makes sure everyone needs to replace their MBs every year (and a lot of those go to the trash), AMD gives you another choice. Sure, most people just end up buying everything new again, but at least AMD gives you the choice.

Ship of Theseus

[tepples]

If you upgrade the CPU, RAM, drives, and operating system, what's the difference between that and buying a new PC? If you buy a new PC, you can repurpose the old one.

Re:Ship of Theseus

[visualight]

Well, the cost of 1 case and 1 motherboard. Also, the cost of drives because only the cpu and ram need to be upgraded. Also, since we're going from ddr3 to ddr3 (unlike am2-to-am3), only the cpu needs to be upgraded. So yeah, you save the cost of the motherboard, ram, drives, and case.

Re:It is

[rrhal]

In this case the DDR3 memory standard is just fine for Bulldozer and AMD just upped the HT speed between the CPU and the 800 series chip sets. Most of the platform change is happening inside the CPU or the 900 series chips.

Re:Uh

[Tacvek]

The following table represents what is possible in theory. Actual support does differ based on board manufacturer.

. . . . .Type of CPU
. . . .AM3+ AM3. AM2+ AM2.
. AM3+ YES. YES. NO.. NO..
S
O AM3. YES. YES. NO.. NO..
C
K AM2+ ??.. YES. YES. YES.
E
T AM2. ??.. YES. YES. YES.

I suspect that the two I have marked with question marks will have a value of "NO", since doing that would allow AMD to drop support for DDR2 from the new processor designs.

Does it sting?

[hairyfeet]

Tell me Petey, does it hurt? Does it eat and your mind, knowing that on every single post I make I not only insult your idiocy but I give a link to a laundry list of your failures? Does it keep you up at night? Does it hurt? I find that....marvelous. Now enjoy some nice insults mixed with the broken glass that is reality, something you sadly can't seem to grasp. Now wallow in your failure monkey boy, and do the dance of humiliation!

And this coming from poor wittle APK, known script kiddie and troll, also know as "Petey, the idiot HOPES file guy"? As in you HOPES that one of the 300,000+ constantly changing array of websites that are infected doesn't happen to be the one you visit today? Or that you HOPES that nobody notices after repeatedly being asked you have FAILED to show even the tiniest shred of mathematical proof that your magical woobie can scale? That you HOPES nobody notices your only "proof" is anecdotes, often by your own sock puppets like Kingsjester and MEK_Lovebug?

If there is ANYONE that should be LOLing it is me, for pointing out there are still morons that believe 16Mb HOPES files can do anything but block ads since ad servers are...what do you call it...oh yeah STATIC, just like your HOPES file, but really you are just kinda pathetic. You're like the idiot that just keeps hanging onto that three years out of date copy of Norton, because he is just so damned sure it still works, only the Norton guy is actually better protected than you are, since it did used to work in the past 5 years.

So please, keep posting APK, I do so enjoy pointing out the total uber fail of your magical woobie so. I also personally consider it a public service to point people to solutions that actually work instead of relying on magical woobies and anecdotes. And of course bitch slapping your around is also quite fun!