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White House Releases Trusted Internet ID Plan

angry tapir writes "From the Computerworld article: 'the U.S. government will coordinate private-sector efforts to create trusted identification systems for the Internet, with the goal of giving consumers and businesses multiple options for authenticating identity online, according to a plan released by President Barack Obama's administration.'"

229 comments

  1. Thanks, but no thanks... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    No way, Barry...

    1. Re:Thanks, but no thanks... by Compaqt · · Score: 1

      Remember the days when only dictatorships required "Internet drivers licenses" to access the Internet?

      --
      I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the Internet. Blog
  2. From TFA: "entirely voluntary" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Just like a SSN.

    1. Re:From TFA: "entirely voluntary" by bitbucketeer · · Score: 1

      Probably more like EDIPI: .

    2. Re:From TFA: "entirely voluntary" by tripleevenfall · · Score: 4, Insightful

      My guess is this will go from "great, safe option" to "suggested" to "merged with your SSN and required" to "Used to search for and track 'potential domestic terrorists'".

      Probably won't take too long either.

    3. Re:From TFA: "entirely voluntary" by cinderblock · · Score: 1

      Exactly. Except secure.

      Instead of farming the job out to private corporations, a government agency should be in charge of it. One with a large web presence. They maintain you public key and force you to update keys regularly. (Opt-in of course, if you want the benefits of the secure online identity). There would also be physical locations, maybe just extend the DMV's job (I know, shoot me) or some other agency that is already in the business of authenticating people that would serve as the human fallback that the masses need to fix any security issues.

      Private corporations could try to step into the personal key managing business. We just can't trust private industry to keep the people's interest's at heart. That is what the government is (supposed to be) for. And regulation of the private industry that would handle this would just be a slow and wasteful alternative.

    4. Re:From TFA: "entirely voluntary" by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 1

      Cos no one can hack into US government computers, not even Gary McKinnon!

      --
      Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
    5. Re:From TFA: "entirely voluntary" by markdavis · · Score: 2

      +1 I wish I could mod you up because that is EXACTLY what I was going to say.

      Obviously it will not be voluntary, except in the sense that you can choose not to do any online business/purchasing anymore. Once a system catches on, it won't be "optional" anymore.

    6. Re:From TFA: "entirely voluntary" by cinderblock · · Score: 1

      I trust the government more than competing private corporations... And worse case scenario, the government has the law, and the power to physically enforce it, and could even call attacks on the system acts of terrorism. (again, worst case...)

    7. Re:From TFA: "entirely voluntary" by alphatel · · Score: 1

      Just like a tattoo, except we'll all have "Trustmarkings"

      --
      When the foot seeks the place of the head, the line is crossed. Know your place. Keep your place. Be a shoe.
    8. Re:From TFA: "entirely voluntary" by Man+On+Pink+Corner · · Score: 2

      (Shrug) With regard to security theater, most of what has happened since 9/11 could have been imagined by anyone watching the news that day. Bush may not have planned that little Reichstag fire but no administration in history would've let it go to waste.

      The slippery slope fallacy is only fallacious in a logical context. People aren't all that logical, in case you haven't been paying attention.

    9. Re:From TFA: "entirely voluntary" by darkpixel2k · · Score: 3, Insightful

      My guess is this will go from "great, safe option" to "suggested" to "merged with your SSN and required" to "Used to search for and track 'potential domestic terrorists'".

      Probably won't take too long either.

      How in the hell did you get rated 'Flamebait'?!? Seriously--Your Social Security Number went from being a 'social insurance' number, to your taxpayer ID, and now it's required pretty much everywhere--bank accounts, new jobs, car loans, doctors appointments, etc... ...and it started out with very strong language that it was *only* to be used for social security...

      --
      There's no place like ::1 (I've completed my transition to IPv6)
    10. Re:From TFA: "entirely voluntary" by AK+Marc · · Score: 3

      You don't have to give your SSN for a doctors appt or for a car loan, but don't be surprised if they refuse your business if you don't give it. After all, in a free market, if you don't want to give it, then some company would have come along and filled the niche. Invisible hand to the rescue.

    11. Re:From TFA: "entirely voluntary" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not only that, but you can be denied services for not handing over your SSN. Banking, driver's license, and even health care (something I encountered).

      btw, how soon before they start making the old, unauthenticated internet dangerous and then illegal, or requiring authentication as licensing, even to the point where you have to "log in" to surf.

      This crap is getting annoying. Corporations to the right. Big government to the left. Moral police behind. Guess we better learn to run.

    12. Re:From TFA: "entirely voluntary" by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 2

      What most people refer to as the "slippery slope fallacy" is not even fallacious in most logical contexts!

      Contrary to what many believe, the "slippery slope fallacy" is only a fallacy when something that is not a slippery slope is claimed to be. It has nothing at all to do with whether slippery slopes exist. They do.

      The fallacy refers only to false accusations of slippery slope, nothing more. As such, it doesn't even deserve the title "fallacy", because false accusations of anything are logically faulty.

    13. Re:From TFA: "entirely voluntary" by bipedalhominid · · Score: 1

      Papers, we must see your papers. I dont care if you just want to buy a burger at Macky Dee's. Show us your papers.

      --
      This aint Daytona and you aint Dale Earnhardt. So stop trying to draft on Interstate 40.
    14. Re:From TFA: "entirely voluntary" by smelch · · Score: 1

      I'm fairly certain it is a regulation or law of some kind that you must give you social security number when establishing an account with a bank. I would assume that would cover loans as well.

      --
      If I can just reach out with my words and touch a butthole, just one, it will all be worth it.
    15. Re:From TFA: "entirely voluntary" by bipedalhominid · · Score: 1

      You usually cant make an appointment to see a Dr. without some sort of insurance. You usually cant get insurance without giving up your SSN. They can't just insure you without knowing who you are. Try making an appointment with a physician and never giving out your SSN or some definite way of tracking your identity. Just does not happen in this country anymore. Yes, you may choose to pay the physician in cash but they will not see you if you do not tell them who you are.

      --
      This aint Daytona and you aint Dale Earnhardt. So stop trying to draft on Interstate 40.
    16. Re:From TFA: "entirely voluntary" by MareLooke · · Score: 1

      But the barrier between "government" and "private corporations" is wearing very very thin.

    17. Re:From TFA: "entirely voluntary" by Lil'wombat · · Score: 1

      How else can they verify your Junk Food Insurance Waiver, notify the Obesity Reduction Task Force as to your weekly consumption, and confirm your exercise log at your local America Works Out franchise.

      Besides, it won't be papers - they'll put a chip in our heads.

      --

      Truth: If it's not one thing, it's another

    18. Re:From TFA: "entirely voluntary" by Lil'wombat · · Score: 1

      How about the USPS? They have offices in every town and already process your paperwork for Passports.

      --

      Truth: If it's not one thing, it's another

    19. Re:From TFA: "entirely voluntary" by SleazyRidr · · Score: 1

      I'm fairly certain it isn't. When I came to the US a couple of years ago, it took a couple of weeks before my Social Security number came through, and I set up a bank account before I got it. I also managed to get the first couple of paycheques in that time too.

    20. Re:From TFA: "entirely voluntary" by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      I've never had presentation of insurance as a requirement to make an appointment. They'll usually require payment up front if you don't have insurance, but I've never heard of a doctor that turned away people with no insurance. Given your premise is wrong, I'll have to assume everything else you say is similarly false guesses presented as fact.

    21. Re:From TFA: "entirely voluntary" by Unordained · · Score: 1

      DMV? In Oklahoma, at least, those are privately-run. All of them. Even if you order your tags online (through a state site), it asks you which private DMV you want to use, and you get your tags from that one physical location ("Tag agency".) States like Oklahoma would require the Feds to put in a clause that states can opt to provide the service any way they see fit, so states can compete, and through competition, figure out which method is best for our dearest citizens. (Note: I think competition between states is a ridiculous concept. Nobody gives California props for "trying things out" for the rest of us, nor does anyone interpret the mass migration to California as proof that its government had the best ideas.)

    22. Re:From TFA: "entirely voluntary" by markdavis · · Score: 1

      I *have* tried to refuse to give my SSN to a doctor and they refused treatment. And more than once. And it had nothing to do with insurance. So don't be too quick to dismiss his premise.

    23. Re:From TFA: "entirely voluntary" by bipedalhominid · · Score: 1

      Ok, just make all the assumptions you want. Troll. I guess your experience is all that matters or happens. No way in the world someone else's experience could be different than yours. BTW, it is called a medical record and they will not see you if they do not know how you are. Did ya see the overwhelming use of the word Usually?. Someone please stop me I am feeding the trolls again.

      --
      This aint Daytona and you aint Dale Earnhardt. So stop trying to draft on Interstate 40.
    24. Re:From TFA: "entirely voluntary" by bipedalhominid · · Score: 1

      Ok, I just can not stop on this one. I got 20 damn years supporting various software/hardware packages. Half of that supporting medical databases, voice rec engines, transcription systems, dictation,... You name it and if it involves keeping track of a medical record then I have probably dealt with it, installed it, troubleshot it, worked a help desk as a tech for it,... Get the picture Mr loving alaska. I have earned an opinion on this one. Not to mention that my significant other also holds a medical degree, multiple certifications in current standing and manages a large medical record transcription dept. and talks to me nightly about her issues and rules at work dealing with these exact same things as identity and what does and what does not constitute and accurate record. They do call it a record for a reason, you can sue the Dr. if they do something wrong. The physicians keep the record to help themselves and their colleagues treat you in the future and so they can prove what they did and or did not do to you. Also, it is a really bad idea to simply "practice" medicine and not keep an accurate record of what you did and WHO you fricking did it to. Verification of a patient's identity is important. You can get insurance and tell the company providing it that you do not wish to be tracked by your SSN. We can simply put 999-99-9999 instead of your real SSN when putting you in the system but Why for Christ's sake would you want to do that? Is it to keep the illusion alive that you still have some sort of protection from identity theft in this world? You got more than one identity? You want a gun shot wound treated and have the police report reflect the wrong person? OK here's the real end rant.

      --
      This aint Daytona and you aint Dale Earnhardt. So stop trying to draft on Interstate 40.
    25. Re:From TFA: "entirely voluntary" by bipedalhominid · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I was just going old school. Heard that line somewhere in a movie. We must see your papers. I think we should just RFID chip people at birth, then setup readers everywhere. GPS tag the lot of em. Let's see you try to run from the popo now. Then make running a stop light a capital crime and open up the organ banks.

      --
      This aint Daytona and you aint Dale Earnhardt. So stop trying to draft on Interstate 40.
    26. Re:From TFA: "entirely voluntary" by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Wow, what the hell is your problem. I said "I've never had presentation of insurance as a requirement to make an appointment" and nothing more. And I've had plenty of doctor's appointments. In fact, one time I went in for knee surgery and the surgeon didn't pass along any information to the theater, so I was required to pay the entirety of the bill up front because they didn't have my insurance on file. Normally they contact the insurance before for pre-authorization, but were happy to take me with no insurance on file. I've given insurance information on visits in the initial paperwork, but never have I been told to give insurance information before they'll make an appointment.

      So yeah, you get all worked up, but if you get something as basic as that 100% wrong, I have to believe that your "passion" is blinding you to the way things work. Insurance isn't required to make an appointment. Since you've asserted it is required, I'd like you to name a single place with that policy. But no, I'm sure you'll just go into some insane rant on how your SO with a "medical degree" (what is that, medical transcriptionist from DeVry?) and you've worked on databases so you know how everything there is to know about doctor's offices. I've seen House once, so I must be an expert too.

  3. Let me guess by calmofthestorm · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Requires Windows (tm) 7 (tm) Professional (tm) using an Intel (tm) chipset supporting a Trusted Platform Module (tm) with keys in escrow by the issuing authority.

    --
    93rd rule of Slashdot: No matter how obvious my sarcasm is, my comment will be taken seriously by someone.
    1. Re:Let me guess by vuke69 · · Score: 2

      Too many (tm)s, I'll pass.

      --
      Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so. ~ Douglas Adams
    2. Re:Let me guess by calmofthestorm · · Score: 1

      All these services are available in the US, though they're not really secure at all. I've never been to a 711 in my life (it's a gas station right?) and do all my banking online.

      --
      93rd rule of Slashdot: No matter how obvious my sarcasm is, my comment will be taken seriously by someone.
    3. Re:Let me guess by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Hello... online banking ?

      Huh? I'm in the US and have been using onlne banking since sometime in the 90's.

    4. Re:Let me guess by iluvcapra · · Score: 5, Insightful

      After reading the document, there really aren't any system requirements, specific technology or any kind of actual implementation, all it really does is set out some goals and establish a certain vocabulary. It's utterly anodyne and will probably die before being considered because it sets out concrete goals for private companies that handle identifying data:

      Limit the collection and transmission of information to the minimum necessary to fulfill the transaction’s purpose and related legal requirements;
      Limit the use of the individual’s data that is collected and transmitted to specified purposes;
      Be accountable for how information is actually used and provide mechanisms for compliance, audit, and verification; and
      Provide effective redress mechanisms for, and advocacy on behalf of, individuals who believe their data may have been misused

      Surely this is the thin end of the wedge of tyranny.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    5. Re:Let me guess by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      BS...

      In some european countries it already exists. Like in Holland we've a "DigID", which is used for on-line services
      incl. sending in your tax form.

      US is way behind online services. If I'm not mistaken you guys still have to go to 711 to pay your electricity bill.

      Hello... online banking ?

      Holland is way behind online services. If I'm not mistaken you guys have no idea what you're talking about and make inferences based on your tarot cards on what is going on in the US.

      Hello... online news?

    6. Re:Let me guess by tqk · · Score: 1

      Requires Windows (tm) 7 (tm) Professional (tm) using an Intel (tm) chipset supporting a Trusted Platform Module (tm) with keys in escrow by the issuing authority.

      I thought we'd decided not to reinvent wheels: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x48EE77B1AC94E4B7

      --
      "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
    7. Re:Let me guess by calmofthestorm · · Score: 1

      Thing is the GNU foundation doesn't make large contributions to various political campaigns, so it's products aren't MSXZYJLAMP certified.

      --
      93rd rule of Slashdot: No matter how obvious my sarcasm is, my comment will be taken seriously by someone.
    8. Re:Let me guess by tripleevenfall · · Score: 1

      I think one point of this "service" is that it will lay the groundwork for the government to tax the internet without having to go through the legislative process. At least not until they are just one step away.

    9. Re:Let me guess by jd · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Since all tyrannies require those tyrranized to still be breathing, oxygen is the thin end of the wedge to tyranny. (In other words, almost anything can be dual-purposed for "good" and "evil", so almost anything can be considered the thin end of some wedge or other. It renders that entire line of reasoning pointless.)

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    10. Re:Let me guess by iluvcapra · · Score: 1

      * <------- sarcasm

      Depiction of "you" elided for brevity.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    11. Re:Let me guess by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your DigID is called an electronic signature here. It requires your SSN and a pin number that you choose.

    12. Re:Let me guess by tqk · · Score: 1

      Thing is the GNU foundation doesn't make large contributions to various political campaigns ...

      Why is it that this is common knowledge on /., yet this seems never to end up on the nightly news shows?

      Oh, I forgot, I don't watch those (very often).

      Is the US' really broken and bought by and in the pockets of special interests, or is that just /.'s perception? From this Canuck's point of view, ever since I heard of Senator Byrd, I'm inclined to believe this. I never imagined this could happen when I was a kid.

      --
      "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
    13. Re:Let me guess by icebike · · Score: 1

      After reading the document, there really aren't any system requirements, specific technology or any kind of actual implementation, all it really does is set out some goals and establish a certain vocabulary. It's utterly anodyne and will probably die before being considered because it sets out concrete goals for private companies that handle identifying data

      Actually the more you read on it the evil less it sounds.

      It requires on-device credentials (files, private keys, or some such).
      It transmits no-passwords, instead using one-time keys calculated and negotiated for a single use.
      It uses third party authentication.
      It requires user control of exactly which data elements are to be shared.
      Passwords would presumable be required to decrypt/access your own on-device credential cache.

      So, basically you have something like Kerberos where any number of different private/commercial entities offer authentication services (for a fee) which can be used on any number of websites to verify authenticity and identity for purchases, banking, money transfers (NFC), etc. Your bank may enter into this business, or maybe Google, or PayPal, or your Credit Card company.

      The feds are involved to establish the rules, enforce privacy, and [tinfoil] assure government backdoors [/tinfoil].

      There are already private companies in the identity space (Thwate Verisign, et al) although they concentrate their efforts on the server side. These companies, and your bank, could easily move into this space.

      It would be best if it could be mandated that the methods be fully public domain, visible, and open. Anything that will not withstand public scrutiny of every bit of authentication transaction code will not survive in the real world. Put 100,000 pairs of eyes on the code and it has a chance of being bullet proof.

      Down side: When someone steals your smartphone and somehow obtains your password to unlock your credentials, you will be hard pressed to prove it was not YOU who emptied your bank account. But such an attack requires access to your device AND your password, as opposed to the current situation where simple knowledge of your credit card number is often enough to siphon off your funds, with some merchant eating the bulk of the loss.

      This won't die, because businesses need it.

      Fraud and identity theft are becoming rampant. NFC is the next big thing for phones (smartphones AND feature phones) and credit cards are notoriously insecure.

      Having the government involved is a tactical mistake due to the mistrust of government agencies due to repeated abuses. It would be better to just form an open commission of banks, security experts, and user groups and credit card clearing companies and let them work it out in the OPEN.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    14. Re:Let me guess by dasdrewid · · Score: 1

      Be accountable for how information is actually used and provide mechanisms for compliance, audit, and verification; and Provide effective redress mechanisms for, and advocacy on behalf of, individuals who believe their data may have been misused

      Considering we still haven't managed to do this for our electronic voting systems, I foresee a long future of this not happening if they actually put this in as one of the requirements...

      --
      No trespassing. Violators will be shot. Survivors will be shot again.
    15. Re:Let me guess by mrnobo1024 · · Score: 2

      Why is it that this is common knowledge on /., yet this seems never to end up on the nightly news shows?

      The corporate media isn't going to educate the masses about our system of legalized corruption, because they benefit from it more than anyone. Not only are they giving bribes (and get laws like the DMCA passed in return), but they are also indirectly a beneficiary of them (expensive campaigns = more demand for TV advertising time = more money for the media co.'s)

    16. Re:Let me guess by hairyfeet · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yeah well the problem with that my Euro friend is that in case you ain't notice we only have TWO parties here, the far right (dems) and extreme far rights (reps) and they want ALL our emails older than 6 months old (because you have nothing to hide, right?) want to force ACTA down the throats of the planet, never met a corporation or private contractor they didn't like cashing checks from, support one failed enterprise after another as long as the kickbacks keep rolling in...

      So excuse me if I don't exactly trust these bozos with one of the last truly free forms of expression we have left,okay? Hell I wouldn't trust either party as far as I can throw their overfed corrupt asses as it is, give them even MORE they can abuse?I wonder how much MSFT and Intel can pay to make sure only the "latest and greatest" trusted computing platforms are allowed? Hell it has been the dream of Intel and MSFT since the days of the fritz Chip so excuse me if I don't exactly see this as all hearts and flowers, kay?

      Hell when was the last time a politician around here did ANYTHING that he couldn't either grab more power or get his cronies fat checks for doing,hmmm?

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    17. Re:Let me guess by tqk · · Score: 1

      So, according to your Constitution, you ought to be reaching for your ammunition. Or does that make me a 'terrist'?

      This needs to be fixed. I say, what started in Tunisia, needs to spread across the world. Reboot civilization. 'Trow de bums out!'

      --
      "Tongue tied and twisted, just an Earth bound misfit ..." -- Pink Floyd.
    18. Re:Let me guess by DamonHD · · Score: 1

      tmtm;dnr?

      --
      http://m.earth.org.uk/
    19. Re:Let me guess by michelcolman · · Score: 2

      So you haven't used any checks since sometime in the 90's?

      I can say I haven't, except when dealing with American companies. Here in Belgium, electronic transfers are free, and we can even attach a message. Want to pay your friend $10 for next weekend's barbecue? Just ask for his account number, transfer the money and add "Looking forward to the barbecue, great idea!" as a message. No need to say it came from you, he'll get that information automatically. To pay bills, just add the bill number as a message. We've been able to do this since at least 40 years ago, first via the bank office itself, later via Phone Banking and then PC banking. As soon as you can, too (via regular bank accounts, not PayPal or similar services, and between different banks in different states), let me know. Then maybe I'll admit you've finally caught up with Europe (and that would be about time).

      I'm simply amazed how you guys still keep sending bits of paper around with payment details written on them. Don't say it isn't true, just read this thread, with so many people still using checks for all kinds of things because it's the only simple or cheap way. Rent, utilities, gardeners,... Millions of silly little papers with payment details sent around like in the middle ages.

    20. Re:Let me guess by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      At least you can still post to slashdot anonymously ... for now.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    21. Re:Let me guess by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sarcasm is the second leading cause of cancer. The leading cause is annoyance with people who don't understand sarcasm.

    22. Re:Let me guess by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Too many (tm)s, I'll pass.

      What makes you think you will have an option (short of moving to another country, if you are a US resident)?

      WV: Corridor (heh, like the one you will use to escape... right now I VPN BACK to the USA to avoid The Great Firewall of China- the times, they are a'changin')

    23. Re:Let me guess by blowdart · · Score: 1

      It sounds familiar, it's almost based on Kim Cameron's seven laws of identity and claims based authentication.

      His list was

      • User Control and Consent - where the user can stop information flowing from the identity provider to the system asking for it.
      • Minimal Disclosure for a Constrained Use - if a system needs to know if a user is over 21 then send true or false, not a date of birth
      • Justifiable Parties
      • Directed Identity
      • Pluralism of Operators and Technologies - standardise it, and let everyone play
      • Human Integration
      • Consistent Experience Across Contexts - a client side app, no more changing login pages depending on where you are

      It's interesting reading, but CardSpace, the sole implementation of this, isn't being pushed any more.

    24. Re:Let me guess by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You'd understand if you were a llama.

    25. Re:Let me guess by MoeDumb · · Score: 1

      I, for one, miss the Middle Ages.

      --
      Mod Me Up. You'll make a grown man cry.
    26. Re:Let me guess by Oxford_Comma_Lover · · Score: 1

      > Is the US' really broken and bought by and in the pockets of special interests, or is that just /.'s perception? From this Canuck's
      > point of view, ever since I heard of Senator Byrd, I'm inclined to believe this. I never imagined this could happen when I was a
      > kid.

      Broken? Not in a permanent sense. It does many things very well, but it also has areas that need a lot of work. Like Canada, although they are different areas and they are broken in different ways.

      The special interests wield a huge amount of power, because we don't have a good system of public funding for Congressional elections. But there are also NGOs that wield a large amount of power through influencing votes energizing voters. And the Fourth Estate, of course. And the meta-fourth estate.

      But seriously, it's the money for elections. Any time a senator is between meetings or events, he's on the phone to a potential donor. That's what he does. That's his job.

      Sometimes there's lawmaking or serious concern, as opposed to grandstanding. Actually, frequently there is, it's just not their primary concern, because you get reelected by getting lots of money and not putting your foot wrong. Politics, for the most part, incentivizes very risk-averse behavior. The wrong word spoken at the wrong moment can cost you an election.

      --
      -- IANAL, this isn't legal advice, and definitely isn't legal advice for you. Also, Squee!
    27. Re:Let me guess by smelch · · Score: 1

      You are an idiot. People pay with bits of paper only when its convenient for them. We have electronic transfers, you can transfer money in to anybody's account as long as you have the two things that you would find on a check: routing number and account number. It has been that way for decades. The only thing I've ever used a check for was to pay rent, which has nothing to do with being able to transfer the money electronically and everything to do with the fact that landlords don't want it to be that convenient so they can stick you with a late payment fee. The only people writing checks choose to do that, but most of us don't even have check books. It sounds like you're just an asshole to me.

      --
      If I can just reach out with my words and touch a butthole, just one, it will all be worth it.
    28. Re:Let me guess by michelcolman · · Score: 1

      It's been that way for decades? I lived in the US for 6 months about 15 years ago, and I was totally dumbstruck when the phone company told me that I could not pay my phone bill via wire transfer because "they would have no way of knowing where the money came from", let alone which bill I was trying to pay with it. I know most utilities now seem to be offering some sort of electronic bill paying service, only you have to pay extra for the privilege of saving them the work of processing your checks. I'm not making this up, I was just reading it in this very thread. By the way, we don't need a routing number for transfers within the same country. Also, can you attach a message to the transfer? Does the recipient even know who sent the money, let alone what for? (And I don't mean any of the new e-systems that only work for one bank, I'm talking about plain and simple bank transfers).

    29. Re:Let me guess by smelch · · Score: 1

      The routing number indicates the financial institution that the account is held at, I don't know how you guys would get around that unless you all pull account numbers from the same pool of possibilities. When I electronically transfer money from one bank to another bank it shows the financial instituation the transfer came from and the account number. I guess we can't really attach a message very easily.

      --
      If I can just reach out with my words and touch a butthole, just one, it will all be worth it.
    30. Re:Let me guess by michelcolman · · Score: 1

      In Belgium, the recipient cannot just see the account number, but also the name and address associated with it. And the optional message, of course. Belgian account numbers are standardized so you can tell which bank it's from. Between European countries, we use a slightly longer bank account code which has the bank encoded into it.

    31. Re:Let me guess by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      Sure, and you can cut a steak with a toothbrush too, if you're really determined, but that doesn't make a knife any less appropriate for the task. In other words, almost any stupid analogy can be dual purposed for both "sense" and "nonsense", so almost any analogy can be considered inappropriate for a given context. If you're going to point out the inconsistencies in any analogy, then it renders the entirety of all analogies pointless.

    32. Re:Let me guess by jd · · Score: 1

      Analogies are usually fairly pointless. Instead of creating an artificial construct that doesn't really relate at all, try explaining better. Use clarity, not brevity. Use depth, not shortcuts. In short, do what works, not what is easiest on you.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    33. Re:Let me guess by jd · · Score: 1

      Never tried cutting steak with a toothbrush. I rather suspect that unless you tenderize the hell out of it before cooking, a toothbrush cannot cut it. You can certainly cut steak with a spoon, and I could even see you being able to cut it with paper. In 500 years time, these posts will be used to program the android Data.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    34. Re:Let me guess by jd · · Score: 1

      I thought statistics was the leading cause. Just goes to show how much the numbers lie.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  4. Trusted ID by umask077 · · Score: 1

    A few years back my email account got hacked, they got my yahoo contact list and bombarded people with spam. My solution to this problem was to install Enigmail, om to my Thundeerbird. reader. This program allows me to easily digitally sign all messages. Granted the world is full of people not smart enough to verify a PGP signature but at least they know if the signature block isn't there. It is not from me.

    --
    --- Always remember. 99.36% of all statistics are inaccurate.
    1. Re:Trusted ID by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And sadly, this solution wont prevent that from happening in the first place. More tax dollars to waste.

    2. Re:Trusted ID by sakdoctor · · Score: 1

      but at least they know if the signature block isn't there. It is not from me.

      Yeah, I do something similar.

      ^_^

    3. Re:Trusted ID by icebike · · Score: 3, Informative

      And sadly, this solution wont prevent that from happening in the first place. More tax dollars to waste.

      Except there are very little tax dollars involved. The effort is to be largely private.

      And if you needed secure credentials to get into your yahoo account, it would certainly go a long way toward preventing it from happening in the first place. Previously all they had to do was guess your (weak) password. With this, they would need certificates/keys stored on your computer AND your password to unlock these.

      Even now you can set a switch in Gmail that insists all access to it be via ssl so that your password never travels over the net in cleartext. This might be even better than that option, as one-time keys can be negotiated of any length which would be unique for each session.

      However, login is not the focus of this effort. Banking and on-line purchases are.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
  5. Never going to work. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Never going to work while the security of home PC's is Swiss cheese.

    1. Re:Never going to work. by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      Never going to work while the security of home PC's is Swiss cheese.

      Not to worry. Palladium, er, I mean the 'Next Generation Secure Computing Base', er... umm... the 'Trusted Computing Group' will save us from that(and the evils of piracy and software that isn't signed by Verisign!)

    2. Re:Never going to work. by JeanInMontana · · Score: 1

      Agree, security starts at home. If it stops companies like Comodo with a history of bad business practices from being allowed to issue SSL certificates it's worth it.

      --
      *Think globally~Dream universally*
  6. Re:more like a trustdead list of suspects by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You missed your snowclone a bit.

  7. Doing all your banking online by tepples · · Score: 1

    A 7-Eleven store is a small grocery store similar to the stores at gas stations, though I've never seen one with gasoline pumps in front of it.

    If you do all your banking online, how do you deposit cash or checks that other individuals give you? Do you mail the checks, and buy money orders with the cash and mail those? And do you refuse to take any job that doesn't direct deposit your paycheck?

    1. Re:Doing all your banking online by calmofthestorm · · Score: 1

      I've never been offered a job that didn't direct deposit my paycheck and I've been working since high school. BoA has a smartphone app for depositing checks by taking a picture, and usually I just hand off cash or keep track of debts on whiteboards/Google Docs with my friends and take turns paying. Never heard of a money order except on those cheesy TV informericals. I got my first checking account earlier this year. Move money around from various accounts via HSBC online. They even have an option to pay someone, they'll either direct deposit or mail them a check -- you just put in name, address, and amount. It's how I paid my rent last year.

      Part of it is I basically refuse to deal with dead-tree paperwork, but I've never really had to compromise this principle. If you shop around you can find all the services you need. One reason I'm pissed about this plan is I expcet to see required windows-only crapware installed just to do tasks I've become accustomed to.

      --
      93rd rule of Slashdot: No matter how obvious my sarcasm is, my comment will be taken seriously by someone.
    2. Re:Doing all your banking online by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      I believe there are apps out there for a few banks that let you take picture of a check with your smartphone, and it registers it and deposits it.. I'm not sure if it works for personal checks, though, but who uses those any more?

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    3. Re:Doing all your banking online by Gerzel · · Score: 1

      Depending on the field you wouldn't be refusing much.

      Direct deposit is a fairly standard option and is even available to many small businesses.

    4. Re:Doing all your banking online by SpiralSpirit · · Score: 1

      if you get a cheque, you go to an ATM at the bank and deposit it, or to the teller and do the same thing. I'm not really sure where you're getting this 7-11 thing. I live in canada and the only reason to go to 7-11 is slurpees.

    5. Re:Doing all your banking online by ZankerH · · Score: 1

      People still use checks? I haven't seen one since the mid-90s, and I've had the displeasure of holding jobs that involved handling other people's money for most of that time.

    6. Re:Doing all your banking online by calmofthestorm · · Score: 2

      You backward canucks still get your slurpees in stores? In America we order and enjoy them online! No need to leave the sofa and no mess.

      --
      93rd rule of Slashdot: No matter how obvious my sarcasm is, my comment will be taken seriously by someone.
    7. Re:Doing all your banking online by tepples · · Score: 2

      I'm not sure if it works for personal checks, though, but who uses those any more?

      People who have been paying utility bills for decades by mailing a paper check. I've got a couple in my family.

      And how else does one person pay another person through the mail, such as money included with a birthday card? Most individuals don't take credit cards. Or have gifts included with birthday cards moved to Walmart gift cards? Or have people stopped celebrating birthdays where you live?

    8. Re:Doing all your banking online by Sporkinum · · Score: 2

      Any time a business or utility charges a fee for electronic payment, you can bet they are going to get a check from me. .44 cents beats the $5 or so they charge for electronic payments. Same thing with efiling state taxes. If the state wants me to efile, make it cheaper than .44 cents. Right now, it's between $10 and $20 to efile depending on who does it.

      --
      "He's lost in a 'floyd hole"
    9. Re:Doing all your banking online by e9th · · Score: 1

      I pay my housekeeper and gardener by check. Neither of them accept credit cards, and it cuts down on the amount of cash I need to keep around.

    10. Re:Doing all your banking online by nschubach · · Score: 1

      I'm not a Jehovah's Witness, but our family has pretty much never celebrated birthday's and other holidays (except Christmas). My parents (who are on again/off again Christian religious) visit me on mine and we go eat, but my brothers and I do not do anything besides Christmas... and that's good enough for me.

      --
      Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
    11. Re:Doing all your banking online by isopropanol · · Score: 1

      People who pay rent.

    12. Re:Doing all your banking online by Pax681 · · Score: 1

      A 7-Eleven store is a small grocery store similar to the stores at gas stations, though I've never seen one with gasoline pumps in front of it.

      i was in Denver last october/november and there were 711's aplenty with pumps in front bud.

      maybe it just depends on your locale

    13. Re:Doing all your banking online by metrix007 · · Score: 1

      The rest of the world moved past checks about 10 years ago. We just transfer money between accounts securely, conveniently and relatively speedily.

      --
      If you ignore ACs because they are anonymous - you're an idiot.
    14. Re:Doing all your banking online by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here in California employers have to offer direct deposit by law.

    15. Re:Doing all your banking online by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They even have an option to pay someone, they'll either direct deposit or mail them a check...

      Part of it is I basically refuse to deal with dead-tree paperwork, but I've never really had to compromise this principle.

      Not to be rude and AC because I already moderated here, but IMO doing business with someone that requires mailing a check (even from a third party) does compromise your principles. You should only do business with business that bank electronically including on-line statements.

      And off topic... You want to see dead tree paperwork, wait until you buy a house. Yikes!

    16. Re:Doing all your banking online by Ihmhi · · Score: 2

      Never heard of a money order except on those cheesy TV informericals.

      Money orders are quite simple and straightforward. They're like checks, except you pay a (small) fee to actually use them. My mom still refuses to get on the online payment bandwagon and pays our power bill and whatnot thusly. Example:

      1) Go to a store that doles out money orders. Most supermarkets that have Western Union and the like can also process money orders.

      2) Tell them the amount and the recipient, i.e. "Power Company" for $56.83.

      3) A money order, along with a receipt, is printed up.

      4) Detach the receipt, mail money order. The part that is superior to checks (IMO) is that you have a receipt showing it was created. There have been one or two times in my childhood where we were late with a bill and power was about to be shut off, and the money order receipt was proof enough that the cash was on the way.

      Money orders (much like checks) can have a STOP order placed on them (i.e. cancel it, and get a refund on the cash with said receipt). They cost anywhere from $0.50 to $1.00 as a flat fee to have them made up, and again, unlike checks you actually get a receipt. They're quite wonderful and sending a money order makes you far less susceptible to potential fraud.

    17. Re:Doing all your banking online by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      Canadians get their Slurpees by stepping out their front doors and opening their mouths.

    18. Re:Doing all your banking online by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      You really shouldn't use personal cheques for anything. The routing numbers on the bottom are unlimited keys to your account. Unlimited and unchanging. Much safer to use a Bank Check or Money order for that stuff. Or credit card, if you're in a complex of any size that has a website.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
  8. Oooh I know! by Haedrian · · Score: 5, Funny

    Lets give controls of the keys to the Homeland Security.

    I'm sure we can trust them with our internet.

    1. Re:Oooh I know! by slashqwerty · · Score: 1

      Lets give controls of the keys to the Homeland Security.

      Or better yet, farm the whole system out to several private companies like the proposal calls for.

      I'm sure we can trust them to protect our freedoms.

    2. Re:Oooh I know! by QuantumRiff · · Score: 1

      I'm sure it will be just as horrible as the Arpa-net was.. Oh, wait..

      --

      What are we going to do tonight Brain?
    3. Re:Oooh I know! by newton62 · · Score: 0

      Funny Indeed, but why not... this crowd seems perfectly willing to trust the FCC.

      --
      newton62 (56617) Karma: Bad
  9. Taxes, spying, control. by assemblerex · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Items purchased with trusted ID: Washing machine, PS4, Glycerine, Shower tiles cleaner (flagged combo).
    Taxes due on purchases $156.00. Forwarding purchase of glycerine and acid product to FBI for examination.

    1. Re:Taxes, spying, control. by enormouspenis · · Score: 1

      ...Trusted ID suspended pending completion of examination of email content and all online activities using government issued ID. Legal hearing required to restore online privileges.

      --
      "I didn't spend six years in Evil Medical School to be called 'Mr.Evil,' thank you very much!"
    2. Re:Taxes, spying, control. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Items purchased with trusted ID"

      Fascism 101 ... papers please citizen.

  10. And now... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Here is a disaster waiting to happen! Any bets on how long before this system is compromised? :-(

    1. Re:And now... by icebike · · Score: 1

      SSH, and Kerberos have been compromised multiple times, and rapidly fixed each time.

      If its open source, even if your Ebay account is compromised, all they get is your Public Key and an encrypted file full of gibberish.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
  11. The format by TheSpoom · · Score: 5, Funny

    The format of the Trusted ID will be a nine digit number, separated into three groups by dashes...

    --
    It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
    - E. Debs
    1. Re:The format by advocate_one · · Score: 1

      guess what the checksum will be... 666

      --
      Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
    2. Re:The format by ian_from_brisbane · · Score: 1

      You mean like 078-05-1120?

  12. They need to use the right statistics by chimerafun · · Score: 3, Informative

    This is just another step in the governments plan to control our online lives. John Locke states that the reason for this plan is that 8.1 million people were victims of identity theft in the US last year. What he fails to mention is that only 11% of that 8.1 million were internet or technology related while over 43% were due to theft of purse or wallet, another large chunk were the result of dumpster diving or other unsavory methods.

    1. Re:They need to use the right statistics by iluvcapra · · Score: 3, Informative

      What he fails to mention is that only 11% of that 8.1 million were internet or technology related while over 43% were due to theft of purse or wallet, another large chunk were the result of dumpster diving or other unsavory methods.

      It works both ways though: you can create an online account or forge the identity of someone else with nothing more than what is in a wallet. People dumpster dive or steal wallets, and then use the Internet to create false accounts with the information in a wallet or discarded credit application. The problems with validating identity allow a thief to turn a stolen wallet into a stolen identity, this shouldn't be possible and regulation is a good way of addressing this, for example by forbidding businesses from using SSNs as record identifiers, or requiring three-factor auth for credit transactions.

      The document in the TFA proposes no central repository or government database, and proposes a private system that's only regulated by the government to prevent fraud and set minimum standards. Your characterization of the proposal is a strawman.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    2. Re:They need to use the right statistics by Kjella · · Score: 1

      this shouldn't be possible and regulation is a good way of addressing this, for example by forbidding businesses from using SSNs as record identifiers

      Governments are very two-faced on this one, on the one hand they get their panties in a bunch about it yet on the other hand they require it in so many places. Here in Norway I have a unique id assigned to me by the government. Employers report income to the authorities for income tax, so all HR positions have to have it. I can't open a bank account without one. I can't trade stocks or funds without one. Car registry, property registry, pretty much every registry that requires a unique id uses it. There's a central registry that I have to report in when I move, so I get all the local voting rights, pay the right local taxes and so on. Even the card that gives me 3% off at the grocery store and pays out when it reaches a certain amount has to have that ID, because even those 20$ are reported to the government as my asset. Along with audit requirements that means many, many people past and present have to know it. That it's also written on my drivers license in my wallet is the least of my worries. Of course the explanations are all the usual ones, tax fraud, money laundering, mistaken identities and so on. Fair enough but you can't both have your cake and eat it too, if so many people know it then it's not a very well kept secret.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    3. Re:They need to use the right statistics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is why identification and authentication must not be conflated.

    4. Re:They need to use the right statistics by icebike · · Score: 2

      >It works both ways though: you can create an online account or forge the identity of someone else with nothing more than what is in a wallet. People dumpster dive or steal wallets, and then use the Internet to create false accounts with the information in a wallet or discarded credit application. The problems with validating identity allow a thief to turn a stolen wallet into a stolen identity, this shouldn't be possible and regulation is a good way of addressing this, for example by forbidding businesses from using SSNs as record identifiers, or requiring three-factor auth for credit transactions.

      The document in the TFA proposes no central repository or government database, and proposes a private system that's only regulated by the government to prevent fraud and set minimum standards. Your characterization of the proposal is a strawman.

      Exactly right. At least Somebody here gets it.

      Furthermore even if a stolen wallet is used to create an identity, they couldn't use it to access your bank account, because your bank already knows that this account is locked by a different authenticated identity. You can easily prove you didn't order those 15 60-inch TVs because its not your Secure ID.

      So many people here rush to judgment. Or worse, the decry this effort while propping up PGP, not realizing that it is essentially the same thing, with a more reliable web of trust. Its like having your Bank sign your PGP credentials used to purchase on-line.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    5. Re:They need to use the right statistics by imamac · · Score: 1

      The REAL John Locke would not approve of this.

  13. Fantastic. by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

    Remember how we were just talking about the nasty, gaping, holes in the practice of using CAs to verify SSL certs? How the CAs were largely rent-seeking incompetents with strong market incentives to do inadequate verification while simultaneously trumpeting their security? How there were just too many of them, and a compromise at any served to threaten the security of all SSLed connections?

    Well, yeah, that kind of sucks because this plan looks very similar: Some kind of public/private key system, with multiple totally trustworthy(tm) private sector vendors, subject to the twin incentives of trying to establish themselves as one of the 'trusted' trusted identity trustees, so that they get the user fees and user data; but also likely to start getting sloppy on the verification side; because everybody hates a cost center...

    Mathematically, most of the hard work has already been done, and the engineering required to put some sort of secure hardware widget, while not something to be left to the naive, isn't exactly terra incognita(smart card ICs, and/or the integrated USB+smartcard chip+optional definitely-not-keylogged-keypad are a well established product category some generations old at this point); but the organizational/economic incentives side of this is pretty much certain to be totally, utterly fucked.

    1. Re:Fantastic. by jd · · Score: 1

      It depends on the details, none of which exist yet. The theorietical benefit of a quango is that because they can get some/all income via taxes, they should be able to do a better job. Market forces dictate that a private company can NEVER do a better job than the market will bear and it is clear from the multitude of SSL disasters over time (I'm including Verisign's handing out of Microsoft's private keys in the early days) that the market won't tolerate quality work at all. A quango has no such limitation. However, for precisely the same reason, the market can't dictate a minimum level of quality either, but someone has to and it has to be exceedingly high. The quangos that are a disaster are the ones with no oversight to ensure that quality control.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    2. Re:Fantastic. by iluvcapra · · Score: 1

      -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
      Hash: SHA1

      "the organizational/economic incentives side of this is pretty much certain to be totally, utterly fucked"

      The two ways you can approach incentives are (1) make the penalties for data breaches much more severe, to the extent that private companies that keep personal data must safeguard it, and (2) make a bunch of rules that govern how personal data can be collected and used, how much information you need in order to consider a transaction bona fide. Both have their limits -- make (1) too strong and you'll scare companies off the Internet, because data breaches are unavoidable. Get too crafty with (2) and you might make compliance so complicated you'll also scare companies out of offering services.

      A real question is, do people actually need secure online identities that map to real humans? It's pretty clear that you absolutely need secure ways to map information to checking account numbers, credit cards, facebook profiles, host logins, all that good stuff, but do you need something that ultimately points to a person? If you do then there's a huge potential for rent-seeking, since the identity and your sole right to use it is a kind of patent, a created and indefeasible proprietary interest, something you can't do without, and is only useful insofar as protected by state power. Whenever you're forced to use something that must be maintained and cannot be disposed of or sold, you're in rent territory.

      The best way to avoid these is with localism and webs of trust. It'd be great if our credit card companies all staged keysigning parties and only corresponded with us in signed emails, but most people don't understand the technology, and most people don't really understand how *trust* works. They just want something simple and for someone else to make it safe for them, thus the government has gotten involved.
      -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
      Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (Darwin)

      iEYEARECAAYFAk2rPe0ACgkQdILWxH wGqZeM4wCeOurkI4ysnyO3Avvab6vpoLkN
      soIAn0ax1r4xkl5Xov2if7imOPlcA0o4
      =fsi9
      -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

      (spaces added to signature to appease slashdot's filter)

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
  14. Voluntary? LOL by Glarimore · · Score: 2

    It's going to be "voluntary", but soon enough legislation will be passed that makes it so "questionable websites", such as those associated with porn, will be mandated to require an Internet ID for age verification. And simultaneously the government will know what kind of porn you like to look at and can blackmail you whenever they see fit.

    1. Re:Voluntary? LOL by vlm · · Score: 2

      It's going to be "voluntary", but soon enough legislation will be passed that makes it so "questionable websites", such as those associated with porn, will be mandated to require an Internet ID for age verification. And simultaneously the government will know what kind of porn you like to look at and can blackmail you whenever they see fit.

      You would think the nice heroically ethical guys at the ISPs and/or CC companies and/or tracking and marketing companies would have thought of this money making business model a long time ago... The lack of (known) implementations of this business model, indicates something about its likelihood of success.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
  15. Nothing new, fool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Do you think banks and credit cards do not already report you unofficially to the feds? or when asked (and they are not allowed to say they were asked) do you think they will put up any sort of legal fight? Some librarians did, but mega corps who have working control of the aspects of government they want already - I doubt it; they may in fact volunteer or tell the gov to go after somebody... like Wikileaks for example (the state dept seems to work for the corp interests.)

  16. Unrealized potential? by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 2
    From TFA:

    Because of online fraud, many people don't trust the Internet, Locke added. "It will not reach its full potential -- commercial or otherwise -- until users and consumers feel more secure than they do today when they go online,"

    Yes, the Internet has been a pretty big failure so far. :-) What more "full potential" he's talking about?

    --
    It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    1. Re:Unrealized potential? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, it could likely make Facebook obsolete, and allow many companies be part of much bigger decentralized (though centrally authenticated) social networking where the authenticated user base is all of the US.

    2. Re:Unrealized potential? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your seriously suggesting the Internet has reached its full potential now? The thing thats shown constant huge growth often based on the services, security and systems that get implemented and trusted by the public. You are suggesting that that is now over?

      If youve never met someone who doesnt use much e-commerce because of worries about the Internet even in this day and age you need to go out and meet more people.

      Either that or youre getting confused between 'Success' and 'Full potential' there is a huge distance between those things most of it can be measured with lots and lots of cash.

    3. Re:Unrealized potential? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What more "full potential" he's talking about?

      Taxed. ;)

  17. it's optional by hugg · · Score: 1

    Don't worry, they point out that use of the system is completely voluntary. Just like owning a mobile phone or participating in interstate commerce.

    1. Re:it's optional by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 1

      I don't own a mobile phone.

      really. no kidding.

      I'm online almost all the time when home. what is it with you kids (...) that you have to be 100.0% online?

      I have no phone; especially not a 'smart' phone. look how much time and aggrivation I've saved, not to mention I own a lot more of my private life. the less it leaves traces here and there, the more privacy I keep. I like that.

      you enjoy your little phone, there. I'll enjoy my peace of mind and the extra $1k a year I am saving.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    2. Re:it's optional by rerogo · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, planning ahead is a dying art. I used to have to plan hanging out with friends a week in advance to make sure everyone would be there. Now you have to call people at the time when you want them to be there in order to get anything out of them.

  18. This pisses me off by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All the pussies in this country have proven time and again that they will gladly trade privacy for a false sense of security. Idiots. You might as well get ready for this to pass.

  19. Direct link by vlm · · Score: 5, Informative

    Rather than hittin a journalist site, go direct to the source at

    http://www.nist.gov/nstic/

    You can trust this isn't a rickroll or a goatse because I'm usin' my trusted internet ID of VLM

    The headline made me expect a detailed bit level cryptoanalysis of the new protocol complete with flowcharts, etc. Instead it seems to be the tech equivalent of a bunch of hippies high on weed sitting around a campfire and curing all the worlds ills by talking about them.

    More like "whitehouse releases a plan to create a plan for a trusted internet ID plan"

    --
    "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    1. Re:Direct link by icebike · · Score: 1

      Instead it seems to be the tech equivalent of a bunch of hippies high on weed sitting around a campfire and curing all the worlds ills by talking about them.

      More like "whitehouse releases a plan to create a plan for a trusted internet ID plan"

      Oh, climb down.

      There has to be a start somewhere.

       

      'the U.S. government will coordinate private-sector efforts to create trusted identification systems for the Internet

      .

      What part of that don't you understand?

      Businesses are eating billions in credit card fraud every year. This is long overdue.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    2. Re:Direct link by vlm · · Score: 1

      What part of that don't you understand?

      What they're plotting will not work for various basic computer science and security fundamental reasons, over extremely well trodden ground where success despite those odds would be staggeringly profitable and implementation would seem to be simple and cheap, thus extraordinary ROI, if it were only possible. Its the waste of time and money and/or security theater aspect that I don't understand or find very useful.

      Its "the internet" so people just nod their heads and defer to the experts. If it were an industry with a little less snake oil and had quotes like this, people would, correctly, just laugh:

      'the U.S. government will coordinate private-sector efforts to create a system than violates the third law of thermodynamics for the electric power companies

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    3. Re:Direct link by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Businesses are eating billions in credit card fraud every year. This is long overdue.

      Right.... but what the fuck has the got to do with me having an internet ID?

      The blame for credit card fraud should lie right at the feet of the credit card companies - their systems are horribly insecure, and it doesn't require the internet to show that - card fraud happens in meat-space all the fucking time. The problem is that the credit card companies have placed the debt from this onto other parties. Regulation to make them live up to their responsibilities is all that is required.

      All we really need is one of those little RSA tokens (or one from some company that can secure their servers :S) for credit cards and we can stop pretty much all attacks, except from very specific, professional, targeted ones.

      But none of this means that we should re-write the entire anonymous culture of the web just to let the fucking credit companies off from their responsibilities again. Make the little bastards pay for their security holes and we'll see the problem reduce in very quick measure.

    4. Re:Direct link by icebike · · Score: 1

      Businesses are eating billions in credit card fraud every year. This is long overdue.

      Right.... but what the fuck has the got to do with me having an internet ID?

      Had you bothered to read TFA you would have known that the internet ID is only used for on-line purchases, Banking, and a few other situations. It has nothing to do with you signing on to any web site to post more of your uneducated drivel or download porn.

      Nobody is suggesting a rewrite of the entire anonymous culture any more than the creation of credit cards rewrote paying with cash.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
  20. Uses advanced protection technology. by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 4, Funny
    Most people are familiar with the out dated ancient technology used by most computer users. The username + password system. Basically any one can know your username. But only you know the password. That is the basic idea of protection in this system. Cyber security experts are nearly unanimous in saying this does not provide for adequate security. So the new system has been founded on a fantastic new paradigm

    It completely dispenses with the password. It is your responsibility to protect your username. If anyone from Nigeria to Nantucket know your identification code, it means they are authorized to do any financial transaction on your behalf. This breakthrough technology makes it possible for the people creating new and exciting contracts under 409 clause to not only draw money from your bank, but also from your brokerage account, and also change your network log in id and to rearrange your netflix queue and use ftp to open your garage doors Imagine! The New possibilities!

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    1. Re:Uses advanced protection technology. by icebike · · Score: 0

      You sir are full of bull.

      You have no idea how it will work (because it is not yet implemented).

      Stop spreading FUD, and go educate yourself.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    2. Re:Uses advanced protection technology. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So it will already be broken security, just like credit card CVV's used for extra protection. Shortly after the CVV's were added, every online purchase now wants the credit card number and the CVV.

    3. Re:Uses advanced protection technology. by trebach · · Score: 1

      It seems you missed the joke.

    4. Re:Uses advanced protection technology. by sergueyz · · Score: 1

      It is your responsibility to protect your username.

      I sense something ancient here, some magic. Like anyone who knows your name could do anything to you.

  21. i trust myself... by FudRucker · · Score: 1

    what i dont trust is the internets.

    --
    Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
  22. Typical by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Sounds about right for liberals. You have to have an ID to use the Internet, but not to vote.

  23. Catch-22 by NiceGeek · · Score: 1

    People complain about identity theft, people complain about efforts to verify ID.

    1. Re:Catch-22 by Noughmad · · Score: 1

      To summarize the summary of the summary:

      People complain.

      --
      PlusFive Slashdot reader for Android. Can post comments.
    2. Re:Catch-22 by nschubach · · Score: 2

      The only people I've seen complain about identity theft were on TV in a commercial for the company selling identity theft protection.

      --
      Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
    3. Re:Catch-22 by NiceGeek · · Score: 1

      Must not read much /. then.

    4. Re:Catch-22 by AmberBlackCat · · Score: 1

      This isn't going to stop "id theft". It's going to help corporations identify people. And it will compel people to give money and information to corporations.

    5. Re:Catch-22 by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Identity theft doesn't happen. Bank fraud happens, and then the bank performs fraud against their own customers to blame and charge the customers for the fraud against the bank. At best it's "credit score theft" allowed by the negligently lax security in the banking industry.

    6. Re:Catch-22 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      creating the identity to steal... ... ...
      and recognizing that it is stolen requires admiting the system isnt secure, and that you are a failure

    7. Re:Catch-22 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only people I've seen complain about identity theft were on TV in a commercial for the company selling identity theft protection.

      I worked for years in customer service jobs, cashier bartender, etc.

      I remember one Bitch who was whining about getting carded when she tried to buy smokes at the gas station, and then turned around and got pissed when her wallet was stolen and the clerk didn't check ID for a check the thief cashed.. When she was ready to pay her bar tab, she got mad at me when I asked for a photo ID to go with the check she just wrote.

      It's not a catch-22, it's wanting to have your cake and eat it too.

      But ya, identity theft? The only people I've heard bitch about it are a few people who had an Ex go out and use their name to do something nasty to get back at them. And just for the record, using your credit card is not identity theft at all- it's just theft. When I go out and actually sign up for a credit card using your name, etc. THAT's ID theft. You never find out about it until you see the hit on your credit report, or a bill collector tracks you down.

  24. OpenID ? by gmiernicki · · Score: 1

    I just RTFA... and the only question that comes to mind is.... HOW IS THIS ANY DIFFERENT THAN OPENID ?!

    1. Re:OpenID ? by vlm · · Score: 2

      I just RTFA... and the only question that comes to mind is.... HOW IS THIS ANY DIFFERENT THAN OPENID ?!

      Let me give you a little analogy here, you know how your average high tech redneck installs drupal with a little apt-get install (more or less) but a govt install of a drupal site costs the govt $50M in consultative fees?

      Well, yer average high tech redneck would implement openid with a little "apt-get install libopenid-ruby" and, admittedly, some hours spent running vim, but this here is gonna cost the govt about $50M in consultative fees.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    2. Re:OpenID ? by icebike · · Score: 1

      OpenID may in fact server as a model for this one, but since this effort is just getting underway, no one can tell you how it is different, at least not until the first draft is out.

      Its like asking how your yet to be conceived child will be different than your younger brother before you've even reached puberty.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    3. Re:OpenID ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The difference is that OpenID is anonymous or at least not verifiably connected to real people.

      Facebook has shown that there is a big market for social networking of real people, not pseudonyms.

      Hopefully, this ID will open up the 'real people' social network to more than one company.

      There is a place for anonymous comments, but communication between real people is quite useful.

  25. Another solution, where there is no problem. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Another solution, where there is no problem. Except if you are the government and those pesky humans are doing something that needs to be taxed / regulated / or subsidized.

  26. It's not that it will fail; it's already failed by Arrogant-Bastard · · Score: 3, Insightful

    There are, at current best estimate, at least 200 million fully-compromised systems on the Internet. That number has been monotonically increasing for most of a decade, and there is no reason to expect that trend to change. (And many reasons to expect it to continue.) Not all of those are in the US, of course, but a lot of them are. This is turn means that any credentials present on those systems are now the property of their REAL owners, not the people who mistakenly believe they own them. Which means that even if such a universal ID system was properly designed (unlikely) properly built (unlikely) and properly deployed (extremely unlikely) that its first major effect will be handing over a large number of those IDs to The Bad Guys. The second major effect will be providing major incentives to The Bad Guys to compromise more systems, as the value of such increases with both their usefulness and the value of the data stored on them. The third major effect will be providing major incentives to The Bad Guys to go after any system where these IDs are stored or used, since they now have widespread usefulness, not just localized usefulness. They will be successful some of the time, of course, and we will once again get to hear the refrain of the professional liars who call themselves "spokespeople", as they solemnly intone "Nobody could have foreseen..." I think the biggest usefulness of this scheme will be filtering: anyone supporting it is clearly marking themselves as a security imbecile, should be fired on the spot, blacklisted for life, and never permitted to speak in public again on the topic of security. That won't happen of course. They'll get bonuses. That's how we reward sufficiently grandiose failure in this society.

    1. Re:It's not that it will fail; it's already failed by Aldenissin · · Score: 1

      Please user paragraphs, it makes it easier to read/parse, thanks!

      Exactly, if they wan't to plan to do something, how about educate about sound security period. I don't care if Microsoft employs 88,000 people. What is the opportunity cost in feeding their monopoly to society and business? Competition is a good thing. We need the government to push things open things like Linux, and in time even better will come along if everything is not so regulated to death, allowing for other monopolies to rise up.

      --
      Like a city whose walls are broken down is a man who lacks self-control.
  27. Re:so now that they "trust" it by psithurism · · Score: 1

    If people can't see this: http://msgboard.snopes.com/politics/graphics/birth.jpg, realize that birth announcements were made in the local papers, and notice that multiple agencies have put investigating it's legitimacy and found it real, then no amount of convincing that trustedID is trustable is going to convince them.

    If I have to bring at least two newspaper articles, several sworn officials, several in depth investigations and court rulings in support of my identity to prove myself for an amazon purchase and it is still not enough, I don't think I am going to adopt that system.

  28. Deposits for banks with no ATM in town by tepples · · Score: 1

    if you get a cheque, you go to an ATM at the bank and deposit it

    ATMs in my town won't take deposits for other banks, including online-only or otherwise out-of-town banks.

    1. Re:Deposits for banks with no ATM in town by QuoteMstr · · Score: 1

      Most banks let you make deposits by mail.

  29. one rule to rule them all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    One Authentication to rule them all
    One Authentication to find them
    One Authentication to bring them all
    and in darkness to bind them

    or maybe

    One government to rule them all
    One government to find them
    One government to bring them all
    and in darkness to bind them

  30. SSN is not voluntary by frnic · · Score: 1

    But you don't have to give it to anyone - of course they don't have to do business with you if you don't.

    1. Re:SSN is not voluntary by Chaos+Incarnate · · Score: 1

      No, you have to give it to the IRS. And to local school districts - they won't enroll your kid without their SSN, but it's illegal to not enroll your kid.

      --
      Benford's Corollary to Clarke's Law: "Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
    2. Re:SSN is not voluntary by jroysdon · · Score: 3, Informative

      No, they cannot require your SSN for school. It is a hassle, but you can ask for an alternative ID number which they generate. Even for Federally funded things, even at college levels, you cannot be required to give your SSN (except for financial aid, but not just for regular admissions).

      I sure wouldn't want to give my SSN at a school. It's statistically rather easy to get the first 5 digits, and so many places using the last four as some sort of ID method is ridiculous. I know I've seen plenty of colleges databases cracked and leaked containing student records - not to mention do you really trust the guy in charge of lab sign-ins with your SSN?

      Identity fraud is so easy to commit these days. Most have their birthdays for the public to see on Facebook, etc.

    3. Re:SSN is not voluntary by Imrik · · Score: 1

      Before the college I went to started using unique IDs for their students, professors would often post grades using the last 4 digits of the SSN, in alphabetical order.

    4. Re:SSN is not voluntary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then how do illegal immigrants enroll their kids. Do not say they don't. Schools are filled with people without social security numbers becasue they are here illegaly. Don't forget, "It's for the children!"

    5. Re:SSN is not voluntary by musicalmicah · · Score: 1

      This. Many school districts actually refuse to collect social security numbers, and even those that do often will refuse to report them to state reporting systems for fear of mis-handling data.

  31. Trusted what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

    Trusted ID? Is that like Obama's much talked about trusted birth certificate?

  32. all the talk about it being voluntary will stop by superwiz · · Score: 1

    as soon as you'll need to use it to pay taxes. Many of the taxes that are collected are collected not to keep revenue stream going but to ensure that the information records keep flowing. As soon as you can't pay your taxes online without one of these, it will be over. Since the burden of preparing taxes only keeps going up, most people will gravitate towards the electronic solutions which assist in tax-record preparation. Using this thing will be seen as just part of the cost of doing business.

    --
    Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    1. Re:all the talk about it being voluntary will stop by ginbot462 · · Score: 1

      Doh. That seems a completely valid Patient Zero; that would even get borderline opponents to use it (if just for that one thing).From there it would spread...

      --
      Atlas Shrugged : Thematic Story :: Battlefield Earth : Organized Religion
  33. Public-private partnerships by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 1

    The new version more explicitly emphasizes that the private sector will drive forward the trusted ID market, with government playing a coordinating role, administration officials said.

    In other words, it's a Mussolini-style Fascism model.

    Consumer participation in trusted ID technologies will be voluntary, they added.

    Because nobody is going to force you to use a bank, shop on-line, or send email that will actually make it to somebody else's inbox. Sorry about all those on-line government services that you won't be able to use. You can always hike to one of the brick-and-mortar offices and present your papers in person.

    --
    "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
    --- Jerry Garcia
    1. Re:Public-private partnerships by iluvcapra · · Score: 1

      Because nobody is going to force you to use a bank, shop on-line, or send email that will actually make it to somebody else's inbox. Sorry about all those on-line government services that you won't be able to use. You can always hike to one of the brick-and-mortar offices and present your papers in person.

      Freedom isn't free. If you really want to live a life unfettered by a verifiable identity, that choice has real consequences for the sort of lifestyle you can enjoy, the sort of trust others will be willing to grant you, and the sort of financial transactions people will be willing to make with you.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    2. Re:Public-private partnerships by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Because nobody is going to force you to use a bank, shop on-line, or send email that will actually make it to somebody else's inbox. Sorry about all those on-line government services that you won't be able to use. You can always hike to one of the brick-and-mortar offices and present your papers in person.

      Freedom isn't free. If you really want to live a life unfettered by a verifiable identity, that choice has real consequences for the sort of lifestyle you can enjoy, the sort of trust others will be willing to grant you, and the sort of financial transactions people will be willing to make with you.

      I currently have a verifiable identity that I can use to do all of those things. And I don't have to be "coordinated" with some government bureaucracy in order to do it.

      This isn't about solving a problem, it's about gaining more power and control for the central authorities and global corporations. It's really very transparent. There are much better ways to deal with identity theft than a draconian central planning scheme dreamed up by fascist partnerships.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    3. Re:Public-private partnerships by Torodung · · Score: 1

      The new version more explicitly emphasizes that the private sector will drive forward the trusted ID market, with government playing a coordinating role, administration officials said.

      In other words, it's a Mussolini-style Fascism model.

      Dead on with Mussolini. I think the concept you're looking for is corporatism. With this model of "trust," most members of the population are toes of the foot, and a select few us us get to be the big toe. Shakespeare made this joke about the body politic in Coriolanus, in fact. Disempowerment and control of "the rabble" is at least as old as him.

      It is also an horrendous misapplication and misapprehension of what actually produces real trust, which is a functional, empowered community. My 2 cents, of course.

      --
      Toro

  34. Why not ? by Yvanhoe · · Score: 2

    Having a way to authenticate a person as unique is a missing brick in many web applications, especially all the voting applications. I see it as a good thing and I have a hard time seeing how such a tech makes bad scenarios more likely.

    --
    The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    1. Re:Why not ? by vlm · · Score: 1

      I have a hard time seeing how such a tech makes bad scenarios more likely.

      Think about a MITM attack implemented serverside on a weak server, proxying thru to a 3rd party strong server. The most secure system that uses a global auth system can only be as secure as the least secure system in the universe because the least secure system can get owned, have a MITM proxy stuck on it that talks to the most secure system.

      In even more detail, spelling it all out ... the "small town journal" newspaper installs global auth so letters to the editor cannot get forged in someone elses name, people can not vote multiple times in online polls, subscription renewal, etc. Since they're a small town journal newspaper, as the name implies, they don't care too much about security ... so ... some hacker could break in and falsely make someone unwittingly vote to select the official town pie flavor to be "sh!t sandwich" for the county fair, who really cares, no one would ever do that, so security on our server doesn't really matter, says the PHB, right? Until the newspaper server gets owned. Whoops. Now every time Aunt Mildred tries to click on a poll to select "apple pie", she logs in ... to something, but its not the newspaper, but the server side proxies a connection to connect to, for example, TBTF-Bank.com. If Aunt Mildred has an account at TBTF-Bank.com, then the proxy server at the smalltown newspaper is now authenticated as if it, were her. So all her balances are wired to some bank account in the Caymans. Ooops. When she calls to complain, there's even Federal Standard Proof that it was her who logged in and authenticated, at least until they notice the reverse DNS of her request came from... and even that can be worked around if you have a cooperative bot net where at least one bot exists in "cablemodem space"

      Because you can't assume there exists no server admin with an intellectual capacity of a sea slug or below, and there is no way theoretically possible to work around the MITM problem, you cannot use the system to auth anything at or above sea slug level. As a general class, this technology will never be used for much other than maybe some .gov sites, or reality show america's choice online contestant voting, etc.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    2. Re:Why not ? by bendodge · · Score: 0

      It's very easy to see how this is a bad thing: look at Social Security Numbers. They were originally voluntary, opt-in, and only for specific purposes. Now, you receive one at birth, everybody you bump into wants it, and they are controlled exclusively by the government.

      If a similar "internet security number" existed (even as multi-factor tokens), you can bet that the government would soon require to you get one for official online transactions, say, e-filing your taxes. It would be voluntary, because you could still mail them. (By the way, you'll probably need a computer with a Trusted Computing (TM) capable hardware platform and OS (ie. non-free).) Soon the Post Office would want it for your USPS account, banks would be all over it, facebook might offer it as an optional feature, and in time, little by little, online anonymity dies. Eventually it would reach the point where it's required for air travel, passports, cell phone and internet service, etc.

      If it's revamped in a few decades for convenience, it could be easy enough to require it for credit card transactions (to combat identity theft, you know), and eventually could be merged with the RealID system (which is law, btw. It's just being effectively nullified by some state governments who missed the memo on libertarianism being outmoded). It would then be required for motor vehicle registration and similar systems.

      However, woe are you if you do something to displease the issuers of such a critical token! It would be like not having a Social Security Number, or like having one tied to an E credit score or a sex offender list. Life could be made very hard on certain authors, people who condemn homosexuality (or other up-and-coming sins), journalists who are a little too critical of authority, libertarians, people who use "criminal" tools like BitTorrent or decentralized encryption, etc.

      Despite all this doom and gloom, I don't think it will happen. Hyperinflation is a far more realistic fear. By the way, you'll notice I called homosexuality a sin. Imagine what could happen to me if I had posted this using a Trusted Internet ID that someone could report to whoever is in charge of hate crime prosecution!

      --
      The government can't save you.
    3. Re:Why not ? by bendodge · · Score: 0

      Oops, that should have been "whomever" in my last sentence. May the grammar nazis forgive me...

      --
      The government can't save you.
    4. Re:Why not ? by xystren · · Score: 1

      Despite all this doom and gloom, I don't think it will happen. Hyperinflation is a far more realistic fear. By the way, you'll notice I called homosexuality a sin. Imagine what could happen to me if I had posted this using a Trusted Internet ID that someone could report to whoever is in charge of hate crime prosecution!

      Yet we have your IP address tracked and using the same prosecution techniques as the RIAA uses to arrest 90 year old grandmothers. Your hate crime information has been send to the hate crime prosecution.

      You can expect your neighbor to receive your summons. Ain't unsecured wireless grand?

    5. Re:Why not ? by Yvanhoe · · Score: 1

      Offering the possibility of zero privacy is not the same as making it mandatory. I am very vocal when the use of cryptography is limited but I am pleased when improved authentication is offered. Right now I have no possibility to check that a person is really who s/he claims to be. Really, if I receive a mail saying "I am John D. and I want to make a contract with you", I have no way to authenticate the person and judge the scaminess of the proposal. Knowing that the email is linked to a real ID allows me to be more confident.

      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
  35. Is this what it pretends to be, or something else? by whizbang77045 · · Score: 1

    Why not just brand everybody with a unique id, and stamp "666" or their foreheads?

  36. RSA Out of Business? by laing · · Score: 1
    If you extend this policy to all businesses and persons then everyone will have a trusted identity and there will no longer be a need for costly server certificates on web servers. If this is true then I will support the adoption of this "Trusted Internet ID" plan. Alternatively, if this is just another "bolted on" form of security that still requires the legacy RSA certificates, I will not support this plan.

    I strongly doubt that the Obama administration would be willing to push a plan that eliminates the "business need" for RSA certificates so I guess I will oppose this plan.

  37. Sadly, I trust Verified by Visa more by Shivetya · · Score: 2

    I trust VISA and my bank more than I trust my government. I will keep voting my conscience and hopefully one day that will work out.

    --
    * Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
    1. Re:Sadly, I trust Verified by Visa more by vlm · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I trust VISA and my bank more than I trust my government.

      In a corporatocracy or fascistic capitalist system like ours, those two have merged together. Like saying you trust your right hand more than your left hand, or your political party is more trustworthy than the other political party, or like saying the fry cook is a much better cook than the burger flipper cook at your local mcdonalds. So that statement logically simplifies to ... nothing.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
  38. Hmm... by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

    Arguably, "Identity" is the wrong target(or, if you think that it is the right target, I consider your motives suspect) for many applications:

    "Identity" is a polite euphemism for a lot of personal information. For most purposes, it is utter overkill to achieve legitimate ends. Say that I'm buying some booze online. You don't actually need to know my name, age, appearance, etc, etc. You simply need to know that my age > legal age and that my payment is valid. To log into an email account, you don't need to know who I am, you just need to know that I have the key for the account.

    There are, in fact, relatively few situations where the entire bundle of information that falls under "Identity" is relevant. Unfortunately, there are virtually no situations where the person you are transacting with wouldn't be happy to have the entire thing, if only for marketing purposes(or worse).

    This scheme had better include some interesting zero-knowledge proof related stuff, or it is little more than a privacy giveaway to a number of private sector actors(and, no doubt, the members of the 'intelligence community' with whom they are oh so cooperative).

    1. Re:Hmm... by vlm · · Score: 1

      Say that I'm buying some booze online. You don't actually need to know my name, age, appearance, etc, etc. You simply need to know that my age > legal age and that my payment is valid.

      You also need to verify the shipping address is linked to your id, and not some teenagers address. Security; its always harder than it appears.

      There are about eighty zillion other "straw buyer" attack scenarios using valid auth credentials. There are also many orders of magnitude more "straw buyer" attacks that are possible with faked / stolen / impersonated / coerced auth credentials. At least some of those attacks can not be prevented, but can be tracked down afterwards, given "lots of info".

      There is some legal liability unless you gather all the info you can get... Unless you do that, someone could set up "MailBoozeToFifteenYearOlds.com" and intentionally "forget" to store all the information.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
  39. It's not a secret, don't use it to authenticate by js_sebastian · · Score: 1

    this shouldn't be possible and regulation is a good way of addressing this, for example by forbidding businesses from using SSNs as record identifiers

    Governments are very two-faced on this one, on the one hand they get their panties in a bunch about it yet on the other hand they require it in so many places. Here in Norway I have a unique id assigned to me by the government. Employers report income to the authorities for income tax, so all HR positions have to have it. I can't open a bank account without one. I can't trade stocks or funds without one. Car registry, property registry, pretty much every registry that requires a unique id uses it. There's a central registry that I have to report in when I move, so I get all the local voting rights, pay the right local taxes and so on. Even the card that gives me 3% off at the grocery store and pays out when it reaches a certain amount has to have that ID, because even those 20$ are reported to the government as my asset. Along with audit requirements that means many, many people past and present have to know it. That it's also written on my drivers license in my wallet is the least of my worries. Of course the explanations are all the usual ones, tax fraud, money laundering, mistaken identities and so on. Fair enough but you can't both have your cake and eat it too, if so many people know it then it's not a very well kept secret.

    It's not a secret, well kept or otherwise, anymore than your date of birth is. But I am pretty sure that someone cannot create a bank account or get a credit card in your name just because he has found out that non-secret number. The problem they have in the US is that with no national id and with many people not having a passport, companies resort to all sorts of bizarre things to identify people (including the social security number, which was never meant for that purpose, or absurdities like your mother's maiden name, or an electricity bill delivered to your address).

  40. What money transfer fee? by tepples · · Score: 1

    We just transfer money between accounts securely, conveniently and relatively speedily.

    You didn't say cheaply. How much do the source bank and destination bank charge for each such transfer?

    1. Re:What money transfer fee? by metrix007 · · Score: 1

      In Australia, NZ the UK and Germany it is free.

      --
      If you ignore ACs because they are anonymous - you're an idiot.
    2. Re:What money transfer fee? by tepples · · Score: 1

      I just checked my account, and it turns out that Chase Bank in the United States also appears to offer Chase QuickPay. But until the price of mobile Internet access falls precipitously from its current luxury rate, how would one send money to someone else while away from the Internet?

    3. Re:What money transfer fee? by metrix007 · · Score: 1
      QuickPay is similar to what is in most other countries, with the exception of being specific to Chase bank. In Australia as an example, every bank has a BSB (a branch number) and an account number. If I wanted you to transfer money into my account, I give you both. There is no security risk, as you can not do anything with the account number by itself, at all. You can transfer money to me with that information from any bank, for free. Most countries have a similar system. Hence, checks have been obsolete for some time.

      Oh, away from the internet? You can do exactly the same thing by phone banking, which is a bit more of a pain to use but works just as well, or you could go into a branch and setup the transfer. You can have a checkbook if you really want one, but you have to request it and would likely be charged for it as it just isnt used that much anymore.

      --
      If you ignore ACs because they are anonymous - you're an idiot.
  41. It is not wise to mail cash by tepples · · Score: 1

    It is not wise to mail cash. Or did you mean go to the post office and buy a money order? Or did you mean spend all the cash people give you on grocery store gift cards?

  42. Re:so now that they "trust" it by superwiz · · Score: 1

    Right. So wedding announcement is enough to file for divorce? Or do you actually need a legal document like a marriage certificate? How about posting a necrology in a newspaper? is that enough to claim an inheritance? Or maybe you should get a death certificate first? Most people do think he was born in Hawaii. What irritates people is this arrogant attitude that he is above the law. That he is special and doesn't have to show his papers. At least Bush and Clinton tried to claim executive privilege when they tried to hide documents. This guy is claiming nothing. He just doesn't think that millions of people deserve to have their question answered. Riddle me this: do you not think his birth certificate is now a national historical document? It doesn't contain any private information (no medical records, no legal records, etc.) So why not put a historical document in national archives. It's 1 piece of paper. I don't think giving up a piece of paper which of so little consequence is that much to ask of a President. Especially, since it puts him in a murky legal position. His lack of desire to be as clear and as transparent as possible is the most annoying thing about this whole "birther" issue. Oh, and before you try to assign some false claim to me, something along the lines of (he is just another birther), I am more certain that Obama was born in the US than that McCain was born in the US. Because McCain was born on a military base in Panama. But if we have an administration going around creating new national identification standards, the lease the President can do is lead by example and show his own paperwork.

    --
    Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
  43. In general... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    People who "go to 7-11 to pay bills" are actually getting money orders to pay for things.

    Because they don't want or can't have a bank account.

    There are various reasons for each category of such people and the reasons may or may not be valid, but the primary one is because if certain folks have a bank account, it can be attached for past taxes, legal judgments or back child support.

    1. Re:In general... by clang_jangle · · Score: 0

      Thank you for explaining that. Couldn't for the life of me imagine what 7-11 had to do with paying electricity bills. I'm in the USA but never heard that one before. Ah well, it's always good to remember it's not just most murkins who are stoopidt. :P

      --
      Caveat Utilitor
  44. Which Private Sector Company to Use? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think I have a Facebook account that will do all that and more.

  45. Yeah, I don't think so.... by thestudio_bob · · Score: 1

    I have a hard time trusting a proposal like this that comes from an administration that includes a lot of former RIAA and MPAA associates.

    --
    The real Sig captains the Northwestern. This one captains /.
  46. So if a thief... by southlander · · Score: 1

    Gets your "trusted" credentials, that would be more damaging, right? Kind of like now -- someone pairing your ss# to your full name is much more dangerous because of the trust factor placed in that. Whereas if they get your Yahoo Mail login they spam all your friends until you close the account or get control of it. I think I would like this to be optional for sure. Let's see how well it works or what a disaster it is before everyone is required to use it to do business with say PayPal -- Google -- etc.

  47. id tracking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Obama administration wants to remove the anonymity from the internet so they can track everyone for whatever reason.

    They have already attempted to make law that you cannot "fake" post on the web.

  48. I trust the Internets. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If the Internets managed to get some sort of unified, 'secure" (rofl) ID of mine, here's what'd happen:

    - Slashdot people would sign me up for crap because I use Windows and can't stand the blathering of Linux fanboys.

    - 4chan would sign me up for transsexual-based porn, for the lulz, you see.

    - Nigerians would ensure that I give my bank account details to several 'princes'.

    I trust fully that this would happen; and I trust fully that these side effects are minor compared to what the bumbling government would do.

    (Enforcement of use taxes; the death of basic anonymity; tracking of mundane (eg, 'interesting') purchases; et cetera.)

  49. Who benefits from this? by glebovitz · · Score: 1

    I just want to point out that private industry created the credit reporting service, and now I have to spend money to protect my interest against the shoddy practices of this industry. I don't think it is that fact that people will commit fraud that worries me, but the poor practices that the industry follows that provides no protection against fraud.

    The creation of a government credit ID that has anti-fraud measures might be the first step in battling this issue. The second step would be making the credit reporting companies responsible for bearing the cost of cleaning up the effects of identity theft.

    I would only support the idea of an Internet ID if I wasn't responsible for undoing the message associated with fraud committed against my ID.

  50. White House Releases Trusted Internet ID Porn by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Did anyone else read the title like this at first glace?

  51. Re:so now that they "trust" it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Here you go. It's been verified by the proper officials. Read at the bottom where it says 'This copy serves as prima facie evidence of the fact of birth in any court proceeding.' That's it. That's all that needs to be provided. So what is it you are looking for? What could the man possibly be 'hiding'? The man's name already has Hussein and Obama in it. What evil thing do you think he did when he was born? Did he have a tail? He won't deny it.

    If you take issue with his policy by all means debate it. Address the issues and debate the merits of your argument. If your going to create bogeyman to chase after then don't be surprised when people 'assign some false claim' to you.

  52. The cost by ALeader71 · · Score: 1

    It will be the greatest system ever devised!

    Provided it doesn't cost too much, or impact jobs.

    --
    Only the dead have seen the end of War. - Plato
  53. eBarter a bag of eggs for a box of apples? by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

    If you do all your banking online, how do you deposit cash or checks that other individuals give you?

    If he's accepting payment by such archaic methods then by definition he isn't doing all his banking online.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    1. Re:eBarter a bag of eggs for a box of apples? by tepples · · Score: 1

      Then please allow me to rephrase: How do you do all your banking online if the people with whom you trade don't do all their banking online?

    2. Re:eBarter a bag of eggs for a box of apples? by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Perhaps they do. Newsflash: Some countries caught up with the 20th century before it was over.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  54. Re:so now that they "trust" it by superwiz · · Score: 1

    First of all, the link you give is broken. And 2nd, enough playing of these games. He is not being asked to prove a negative (as you suggest). No one is asking him to provide evidence that he never molested children. Simply put the original of a historical document in national archives. It's not that big a request to produce that big a controversy.

    --
    Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
  55. Single. Point. Of. Failure. by w0mprat · · Score: 2

    What I like about the current mess of different usernames and passwords for different sites, entrust card, RSA tokens etc is that any identity theft is likely to be rather limited. With a Internet ID plan it makes it possible for someone to take an entire identity in one hit, along with all your money and likely better lock you out of getting it back.

    This is going become prime target for identity theft, I can tell by the lack of language even acknoledging security issues let alone addressing how it may be kept safe.

    --
    After logging in slashdot still does not take you back to the page you were on. It's been that way for 20 years.
    1. Re:Single. Point. Of. Failure. by 7-Vodka · · Score: 1

      Yeap. Please see the gazillion examples of massive breaches in the U.K. if you need proof of this.

      --

      Liberty.

  56. Re:so now that they "trust" it by Ksevio · · Score: 1

    Copy the link and paste it in your browser - it seems that Snopes doesn't like hotlinking their images. The legal proof is in that image there. Why should anything more be needed?

  57. Re:so now that they "trust" it by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

    'This copy serves as prima facie evidence of the fact of birth in any court proceeding.'

    I am unaware of anyone who questions the fact that Obama was born. What they question is where he was born, what hospital was he born at? There are an amazing paucity of records concerning the life of the "most transparent President in history," not just his birth certificate.

    --
    The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
  58. Re:so now that they "trust" it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It lists where he was born. Under Location of Birth it lists Honolulu. It is a legal document and is recognized by congress who is given the duty of verifying such things. There's no requirement that President's be born in a hospital, thus there is no requirement to produce a hospital birth certificate. It's an idiotic argument that has never been brought up for a white president.

  59. Re:so now that they "trust" it by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

    There is an official birth certificate, verified by the Republican governor of HI. There are multiple paper copies that have been found of the birth announcement in the local paper. Sure, a birth announcement isn't sufficient to prove citizenship, but it's still incontrovertible proof. There is lots of evidence that he was born in HI, and none he was born elsewhere.

    Additionally, he's an American born to an American mother. Even if born in Kenya, he's an American by birth. There have been multiple answers to the location of his birth, and no one could ever offer any evidence at all that the released information was not true.

  60. Trusted Internet ID is insecure by WaffleMonster · · Score: 1

    The problem with federated trust used in this way is that it does not give the end user any confidence they are communicating with the party they think they are.

    Yea great so you can use the same credentials to login everywhere... Except what happens when a malicious site masquerading as your favorite online store starts accepting open id credentials?

    All of the current federated systems as deployed right now rely on SSL CAs to establish trust.. They don't actually solve any security problems in their own right or address any of the core trust issues surrounding CAs.

  61. Re:so now that they "trust" it by superwiz · · Score: 1

    Because it is no longer a legal question. It's become a question akin to Nixon's WH tapes. All the legal maneuvering Nixon did to try to limit access to them only reinforced the wide-spread belief that he was hiding something. If something like 40% of the nation is convinced that a document does not exist and the existence of that document is necessary for the President to be legitimate, it no longer matters if he fulfilled the minimum legal standard. This has now become a historical document. There is absolutely no arguing this point. And if it's a historical document, keeping it a secret creates an appearance of impropriety. He is not on trial here. The standard he has to satisfy is not the minimum legal standard. If he doesn't release the document into national archives, he will be remembered with mistrust for the next 50 years. I, for one, don't want to hear about it anymore. Both sides, as far as I am concern are correct here. The left is correct that he satisfied the legal standard and the right is correct that he has to go a step further to assuage curiosity (and more than occasional fears). He is not a private person. He is an elected public figure. So the public has a right to know more about him than it would about an ordinary person. By the nature of his position he has public trust. The public has a right to demand that he deserve that trust. Since, again, this document doesn't reveal any private information, not releasing it has a "let the public be damned" whiff about it.

    --
    Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
  62. The White House?? by 1u3hr · · Score: 1
    I find it very odd that this article (also TFA) starts "The White House releases... "and goes on "according to a plan released by President Barack Obama's administration".

    I mean, this isn't; Al Gore's White House. Did Obama sweat out this scheme? Was it planned in the White House? Reading on a few paragraphs one sees "Commerce Secretary Gary Locke said at an NSTIC release event hosted by the U.S. Chamber of Commerce". So it was actually the Dept of Commerce. Sure, they announced it at the White House, but so what? That's hardly the most important thing, why put it in the headline?

    This tendency of Americans to characterise every act of the Federal Government as "Barack Obama" is quite weird, almost medieval. And misleading, I think. It's pretty likely most policies are created and executed by career bureaucrats, the Commence Secretary who announced it and the President (who is probably barely aware of it) have basically nothing to do with it.

  63. Re:so now that they "trust" it by superwiz · · Score: 1

    Let me actually say even more. Since 40% of the country doesn't believe that he can produce an actual birth certificate (I won't rehash why that's different from a certificate of live birth -- it may be sufficient legally, but it's not the same thing and that's that), that means that 40% of the country effectively believes that we are living under consequences of a coup de tat. Even if only half of those people (20%) make this connection, do you have any idea what that to voluntary law compliance? Removing reasons for such a large portion of the population to doubt legitimacy (not effectiveness, but legitimacy) of the government is probably something that should be considered part of proper leadership. So to sum up, not removing this doubt carries a huge cost for the country. The cost is expressed in reducing voluntary law compliance as well as deepening the belief that public officials do not have any checks or oversight. I ask you this, what is the cost of showing the certificate in a permanent manner (such as by putting it in national archives)?

    --
    Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
  64. Use the Teabag Party and their ilk by yt8znu35 · · Score: 1

    Defeating this will be as simple as starting a "grass roots" (astroturfing) campaign declaring this an Orwellian Obama conspiracy against freedom. It would be dirt simple to get the ultra-right charged up about this, especially if a Muslim conspiracy could be worked in or at a minimum declare the program anti-Christian (think mark of the beast). This should get most of the know-nothing Teabag simpletons onboard. It's time these morons were actually put to _good_ use, rather than just destroying the US. It would be worth the PR some young-Earther, keep-America-white-and-pure dipshit would get leading this movement to defeat this idea resoundingly.

    1. Re:Use the Teabag Party and their ilk by ginbot462 · · Score: 1

      Works for me, I'll start right away. The ID with 666 and Federal ID is already there with some of them anyways.

      --
      Atlas Shrugged : Thematic Story :: Battlefield Earth : Organized Religion
  65. trust who? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    does anyone actually even trust the white house / us government

  66. Re:so now that they "trust" it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If something like 40% of the nation is convinced that a document does not exist and the existence of that document is necessary for the President to be legitimate, it no longer matters if he fulfilled the minimum legal standard.

    Somewhere around 0% of the nation thinks the existence of the document is necessary for the president to be legitimate. If they thought that, they would have long ago leapt to the conclusion that the document doesn't exist (i.e. they would have ignored all the evidence), and if they did that, then they would have come to the conclusion that the president isn't legit. And if they thought that, they would have acted. 0% of the population is taking that idea that seriously. That's how you know they're posturing and don't really believe. They're not drinking the koolaide; they're merely offering it to passersby.

    It's not that the claims the president was born outside the US are merely incorrect; it's that it's a lie. It could even theoretically be true, but the people saying it don't believe it. They're trolling.

    When you look at it that way, the president is being very smart to not release any extra documents other than what the state of Hawaii has already released. If Republicans are talking about this issue instead of real politics, then they'll be discreited and likely to have their shit together in elections. It is in every anti-Republicans' interest that birthers' trolling be continue. If you want Republicans to lose elections, then birthers are your friend. The president wants Republicans to lose elections. So he's doing the right thing.

    And the birth cert is definitely not a serious historical document. It is trivia. And it can always be released later, if people want to study Obama's infant footprints 100 years from now as part of their infant-foot-size vs presidential success papers.

    Both sides, as far as I am concern are correct here. The left is correct that he satisfied the legal standard and the right is correct that he has to go a step further to assuage curiosity (and more than occasional fears).

    No! Read any pre-2000 conservative or liberal manifesto and you're not going to see anything even vaguely related to this issue (ignore any new (at the time) statements made in response to concerns about the governator running for president). There is no left/right aspect to the issue.

    If we went back in time 10 years and then I were to run a poll saying that a birthplace question were to come up in 2084 but I don't mention the party that the "accused" is a member of, and please answer these two questions:

    1. how seriously should the birthplace question be taken (especially given a certain amount of evidence that is present even if it doesn't satisfy everyone)?
    2. what is your own position on the left/right spectrum?

    there is just no way you would see any correlation between the birther issue and politics. The left and right do not have positions on this; this is completely about the membership of (or opposition to) the party of the current president. If we were talking about a president of a different party, the situation would be different.

    So please, phrase it as

    The Democrats are correct that he satisfied the legal standard and the Republicans are correct that he has to go a step further to assuage curiosity (and more than occasional fears)

    Calling the birthers or their opponents left or right is a perversion. None of them are talking about politics. The government's role in peoples' lives, positive-vs-negative liberties, social vs personal responsibility -- birth certs aren't related to any of these things.

  67. Terrible implementation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is not a problem the government should be solving. I think businesses should be responsible for keeping their customers' information secure through robust implementations. For instance, use a site-supplied on-screen keyboard that rearranges itself with every mouse click for a password that sends the information encrypted. Whenever any action is taken on the account, the password needs to be supplied through that interface. It's a PITA for the user, but it prevents most common attempts at hacking an account because in order for them to change account information or perform any action with the account would require them to know the password. Keyloggers (or things that record mouse positioning and clicks) won't work, and they'd have to intercept the encrypted password and unencrypt it in order to really do any damage. Even stealing session credentials wouldn't get a hacker very far because they'd still need to know the password to do anything.

    I guess it might be possible to steal the traffic and inject different information while keeping the password intact, but I'm pretty sure that can be avoided based on clever encryption key generation (the encryption key could be generated differently based on which type of action you're performing, and the content of information being sent, like using a hashing algorithm on the contents or something).

    I'm no computer security expert, but this seems way more secure than what the government is proposing.

  68. Re:so now that they "trust" it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "The facts of life are conservative." Margaret Thatcher

    "The facts of life are progressive." History

  69. Re:so now that they "trust" it by similar_name · · Score: 1

    What if the President 'admitted' he didn't have a birth certificate and that he had in fact been born in a house in Hawaii. As you have said, he has met the minimum legal standard and that wouldn't change. At that point I'm sure there would an investigation into whether he had said he was born specifically in a hospital, while under oath, thus perjuring himself. Then there could be an impeachment for the perjury. Then probably nothing.

    Is this really even in the top ten things the country should be focusing on? Forty percent of the country usually has a problem with the President. It's not grounds for invalidating a President just because it's the other guy's turn to screw things up.

  70. How does one get into such a country? by tepples · · Score: 1

    In what country do even children get their allowance through direct deposit, and lemonade stands take plastic or other electronic payment? And what's its immigration policy like?

  71. Re:so now that they "trust" it by superwiz · · Score: 1

    No, it should not be a thing the country should focus on at all. But until there is a resolution to this story, it will only go on. The mystery takes on life of its own as imaginations run wild. The problem is not that 40% have a problem with the President. The problem is that 40% think the country may have already been dismantled.

    To be honest, even if he hasn't met the legal standard of having been born in the US and it was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, he'd remain the President. The Constitution provides for only 1 way of removing a President from power. And the standard for impeachment is "bribes, high crimes or misdemeanors." Lying about your place of birth doesn't rise up to any of these. Especially since it might not be lying, but could be a simple mistake. I know that most people assume that the legal system works in such a way that any mistake which is made must be immediately reversed, however, the way the Constitution is written, he couldn't become President, but once he did, he would not stop being President. For example, if the votes in Florida were privately counted and it turned out that Gore unequivocally won, Bush still would have remained the President despite the fact that in that hypothetical scenario he would have lost the election. Constitution provides no way for correcting this type of mistake after the fact.

    I don't think he'd be brought up for impeachment on perjury charges. First, because one isn't a witness (noun) to one's birth. So one cannot witness (verb) to it. Second, because perjury had been shown not to rise to the standard of impeachable offense in Clinton's case.

    My personal opinion on the matter is that he is keeping the document closed in order to deflect attention towards this minor controversy and away from larger problems that his administration is facing. But it's having a very heavy toll on the nation at large. People not liking a President doesn't cause them to view the country as having fallen apart. People thinking that the principles, the very principles on which the country is based, are no longer the relevant causes these people to completely (rather than partially) lose stake in national cohesion. The origin of the word "outlaw" is that it is someone who is outside of the social contract which is the law. This meme of the President not being legitimate hasn't had its time to ferment yet. If it does, it will cause grave damage to the national cohesion.

    Lastly, now is the best time to actually take a position one way or another. To either release the document or to state that it isn't available. It will give enough time for it to blow over before the election. I don't want this to be an election issue. If he's beaten, it should be because the country takes a stand against his policies -- not because of a gimmick.

    --
    Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.