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Solar Panels Increase Home Value

blair1q writes "Venture Beat reports that a study (PDF) by Berkeley National Labs has found that homes sold in California earned a premium for solar panels. The benefit ranged from $3900 to $6400 per kW of capacity. An earlier study found that proximity to solar or wind power may also raise home values. These results contradict the arguments based on degrading home values used by putative NIMBY (Not In My Back-Yard) opponents to installing or living near such energy-generating equipment."

63 of 352 comments (clear)

  1. Makes Sense by DWMorse · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Makes total sense. If I was looking at houses, and the prior owners had installed a hot tub, earning them a glare or two from neighbors in the process, I would also pay a little extra for that amenity too. Duh. Beneficial improvement raises value.

    --
    There's a spot in User Info for World of Warcraft account names? Really?
    1. Re:Makes Sense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Makes total sense.

      But then the "econutters" would be right and there's a whole contingent of people out there who are going to go burn tires just to show them who's boss.

      Time after time, conservationists say "we think you should X because it will save the world". Opponents say "You gaia-worshipping econutters can't tell us what to do, we're going to burn a tire just for you". Companies turn off their lights at night and discover that they are saving 25% on their electric bill. Or they recycle and discover they're saving on their raw material costs. The list goes on and on. Sure, there are some crazy suggestions out there, and sadly some of them have gotten backed by the government (like the incandescent bulb ban), when they haven't gotten completely redirected for the profit of some small group (corn-and-corn-only ethanol springs to mind, though I wouldn't be surprised to find out that GE sponsored a number of the anti-incandescent bulb legislators).

    2. Re:Makes Sense by MoonBuggy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I was thinking precisely the same thing. It doesn't explain the older study's conclusions, though: "...an additional study conducted by the government in 2009, found that home prices were either unaffected or rose based on proximity to renewable energy sources like wind power turbines and solar panels." - unless I'm misunderstanding, that's talking about solar/wind facilities nearby, not installed on the house in question as in the Berkeley study. I can't work out why that would raise property prices; it's not like you have to take your Prius to the nearest power plant to pick up a jug of fresh-squeezed eco-energy, after all. All I can think is that maybe there's a common cause. Good conditions for power generation could coincide with desirable features for a property location, I guess.

    3. Re:Makes Sense by timeOday · · Score: 5, Insightful

      For me it would be a bonus because it would mean the land is likely to remain relatively undeveloped instead of filling in with more suburbs.

    4. Re:Makes Sense by ShakaUVM · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Time after time, conservationists say "we think you should X because it will save the world". Opponents say "You gaia-worshipping econutters can't tell us what to do, we're going to burn a tire just for you". Companies turn off their lights at night and discover that they are saving 25% on their electric bill. Or they recycle and discover they're saving on their raw material costs. The list goes on and on. Sure, there are some crazy suggestions out there, and sadly some of them have gotten backed by the government (like the incandescent bulb ban), when they haven't gotten completely redirected for the profit of some small group (corn-and-corn-only ethanol springs to mind, though I wouldn't be surprised to find out that GE sponsored a number of the anti-incandescent bulb legislators).

      There's three main schools of thought for enviromentalism - the nutty Gaia-worshiping dirty hippies (who believe many crazy things against science), the Greenwashing Corporation Movement (pretending to be environmental to save money on dyes, water, etc., while diverting attention from the crazy Gaia-worshipers), and the enlightened self-interest people.

      I fall into the latter camp. I think global warming is a real problem. I also won't give up driving a car, and biking to work (which is a 5.5 hour drive in my car, twice a month), or taking public transportation, or any of the other nonsensical things that hippies suggest we should do for Earth day. (Dirty hippies start with the indoctrination of the young: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSfYawbcBGQ&feature=player_embedded) But I don't, you know, hate the environment. I go backpacking a lot, never litter, and so forth. But I put solar on my home solely for economic reasons (the CO2 reduction is just gravy) - if I can generate power myself at half the rate PG&E charges me, why shouldn't I do it?

      The right wing rejects the science behind global warming because they don't want to give up their cars.
      The left wing thinks that global warming means we have to give up our cars, or suggest other similarly impractical or nonsensical things (like driving hybrids).
      Both sides are wrong.

      The Shaka Energy Plan: It is possible to reduce America's CO2 levels by 50%, which would meet every CO2 target imaginable (and do much better than just stabilization, which a lot of accords shoot for), simply by targeting our power generation. Replace coal and gas with nuclear (and wind and solar when economical), which won't raise energy rates. Use our gas to power public transportation, and coal to power our cars. No more foreign energy imports, and we can even pat ourselves on the heads for being good little dirty hippies for our massive CO2 reduction.

    5. Re:Makes Sense by BasilBrush · · Score: 5, Insightful

      For me, when I pass by a wind farm, it brings a smile to my face. I'm happy that here is something being done about global warming and the upcoming energy crisis. The report suggests that feel good factor results in increased property values. Makes sense.

    6. Re:Makes Sense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      [......] the enlightened [......] people.

      I fall into the latter camp.

      Of course you do!

    7. Re:Makes Sense by presidenteloco · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Actually the climate scientists are pretty much saying we need 80% to 100% GHG (CO2...) emissions reductions soon to avoid potentially catastrophic warming.

      Your enlightenment may be on the blink.

      Also, your stereotype and cliche filter probably needs replacing.

      --

      Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
    8. Re:Makes Sense by bunratty · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think your explanation of why the right wing doesn't want to accept global warming or that it makes sense to reduce greenhouse gas emissions is because they think we'll suffer. You're essentially right in saying that we don't need to suffer at all, just change how we generate electricity.

      You're missing the part efficiency plays, however. By using more efficient lighting and appliances, driving higher gas mileage cars, and living and working in buildings with more insulation, we can reduce carbon dioxide emissions by simply not using as much energy in the first place. We'll hardly notice any difference, except for the different types of light bulbs or perhaps charging up the car instead of refueling it.

      You're also off in how much we need to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. We don't need to cut them in half; we need to reduce them by 80% or more. That's why Obama set a goal of 80% of our energy from non-emitting sources by 2035.

      --
      What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
    9. Re:Makes Sense by SwedishPenguin · · Score: 2

      Cutting America's CO2 levels by 50% would merely put you in the middle of the current European pack, it's not nearly enough... We in Europe need to seriously curtail our CO2 emissions, and you guys need to double your efforts to get down to the same levels.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions_per_capita

    10. Re:Makes Sense by bunratty · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Yes, climate scientists are saying we need to reduce carbon dioxide emissions by about 85% to stabilize the concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. If we emit much more than that, we will emit more carbon dioxide per year than the carbon cycle can absorb, and the concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere will continue to rise and the temperature will continue to rise. So we need to reduce carbon dioxide emissions by 80-90% at some point.

      There is some disagreement about how much time we have to reduce carbon dioxide emissions by 80-90% to avoid catastrophic warming (and by catastrophic, I don't mean "ZOFMG we're all gonna die!"). How long it takes us to reduce emissions will determine the concentration at which we stabilize, which will in turn determine how much the temperature rises. For example, if we stabilize at 550 ppm, we will have doubled the concentration of carbon dioxide. There is uncertainty about whether this will lead to a mere 1.5 degree Celsius increase (which isn't too bad) or a 4 degree Celsius increase (which would be pretty bad). The most reasonable course of action would be to play it safe, just in case the actual warming is on the high side of our estimates. If we start reducing carbon dioxide emissions and realize we don't need to cut them so quickly, we can always cut them more slowly. If we wait until we realize that we need to cut them dramatically or that we're already too late, then we're SOL.

      --
      What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
    11. Re:Makes Sense by presidenteloco · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Hmmm. "Eco-nutter". I'm trying to think of an equally derogatory term for those who don't value eco-system integrity and the environment.

      Let's see, how about:
      "Lemming" - as in those who are convinced it is fine to keep on running this way.
      "Genocidal maniac" - as in those who don't mind exterminating species and decimating future human well-being and population for the sake of comfort.
      "Ostrich" - as in "head in the tar sands" is clearly the best strategy.
      "Bio-blivious" - as in those who can't grasp or irrationally deny that we are a biological species in the context of a complex eco-system.
      "Money Eaters" - putting dollars before sense - as in those who think that money is more valuable than everything else, and are pretty sure they will be able to eat money after ecologically produced food supplies dwindle and clean water systems are used up.
      "Shopbots" - uncritical zombie-like over-consumers of wasteful or harmful products of the unsustainable economy.
      "Neo-convicts" guilty of environmentally criminal industrial, land development, or resource extraction acts, and of of not understanding or deliberately closing their eyes to the fact that the economy is a wholly owned subsidiary of the environment.

                               

      --

      Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
    12. Re:Makes Sense by TapeCutter · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Somewhere back in the late 80's the right wing recognised the coal industry were facing extinction and have reacted by conducting a major disinformation campaign to convince their followers to act against their own best interest, it has worked spectacularly well. Somewhat ironically their hero Ronald Reagan was instrumental in creating the internation cap and trade system for sulphur emmission in order to reduce acid rain, that also worked spectaularly well.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    13. Re:Makes Sense by bunratty · · Score: 2
      --
      What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
    14. Re:Makes Sense by PopeRatzo · · Score: 4, Funny

      Beneficial improvement raises value.

      But what are you going to do when one of those solar panels fails and leaks solar radiation all over? It won't be so good for property values when there's a Level 7 solar panel disaster.

      I hear there was a leak at one of the wind farms and now they're finding wind residue in the water supply over a five-mile radius.

      I think we better stick with nuclear energy: Clean, Safe, and Too Cheap to Meter!

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    15. Re:Makes Sense by Gadget_Guy · · Score: 2

      Yes, based on that list, we should all strive to emit carbon dioxide like china.

      Yes, please! If the US did this then its emissions would drop to less than one quarter of the current levels. I know that it is fashionable to consider China as the big bogeyman for carbon emissions (because it helps us avoid doing anything about this problem ourselves), but really they are not worse - just bigger than everyone else.

    16. Re:Makes Sense by ShakaUVM · · Score: 3, Informative

      >>we can reduce carbon dioxide emissions by simply not using as much energy in the first place

      If all of our power generation comes from CO2-free sources, cutting energy consumption won't do very much. =)

      While CFLs are (much) more efficient than incandescent bulbs, CFLs produce a terrible quality of light, flicker noticeably (wave your hand in front of one), and release mercury gas at about twice the occupational hazard limit set by the EPA if you, you know, happen to drop one.

      >>We don't need to cut them in half; we need to reduce them by 80% or more. That's why Obama set a goal of 80% of our energy from non-emitting sources by 2035.

      Those two statements don't go together. Half our CO2 production is from energy, so 80% non-emitting energy sources will be only a .4 * .8 = 32% reduction in total CO2 emissions.

    17. Re:Makes Sense by ShakaUVM · · Score: 2

      Cutting America's CO2 levels by 50% would merely put you in the middle of the current European pack, it's not nearly enough... We in Europe need to seriously curtail our CO2 emissions, and you guys need to double your efforts to get down to the same levels.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions_per_capita

      Or we could always have twice as many babies. That'd reduce per capita emissions significantly.

      (Per capita restrictions are very silly.)

    18. Re:Makes Sense by Americium · · Score: 2

      What's the quickest way to a 100% CO2 free power structure -- massive investment in R&D until we have cheap solar and some storage tech (batteries/ultra capacitors/ethanol/fuel cell).

      How would we have the most amount of money to spend on R&D, well that's simple. Use the cheap coal and gas we have right now, to make sure we have plenty of money to spend on R&D. I'm all for NSF funding and other private R&D, which the major oil companies spend a lot on.

      What the longest way to 100% CO2 free power... well that's simple too. Waste as much money as possible on current expensive tech. Divert money from the R&D facilities around the world to production, which the so called 'green' movement wants.

      The 'green' movement is made up of young kids that know no better and generally have good intentions. Who lead them? Socialists and corrupt government lobbyists from both sides, be it CO2 free mandates, corn ethanol subsidies, incandescent bans, or the ridiculous mpg requirements that wrecked the US auto industry.

      What's the biggest thing the government could do right now to make electric cars more feasible. Just ban the Ovonic battery patent that GM holds for NiMH batteries. Never have I heard anyone talk about this, yet it's really the only thing that would make a big difference, RIGHT NOW.

    19. Re:Makes Sense by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 3, Informative

      I just tested your assertion right here. CFLs produce perfectly decent light and don't flicker. If you bought any but the clearance sale ones in the past 2-3 years. Which I didn't, and they paid for themselves in 6 months.

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      make install -not war

    20. Re:Makes Sense by Jeremi · · Score: 2

      What the longest way to 100% CO2 free power... well that's simple too. Waste as much money as possible on current expensive tech.

      You're forgetting how 'expensive tech' becomes 'cheap tech'. How do they do it? Volume, volume, volume!

      --


      I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
    21. Re:Makes Sense by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The petrofuels compete only on the $BILLIONS a year in subsidies they get. Which you are paying.

      Hybrids don't cost double what straight fuel burners cost.

      You're not forced to drive a smaller slower car. The rest of us who pay for your privilege to do so are being forced to pay for it.

      Greenhouse emissions are causing climate change. Climate scientists say that if we cut them by 80% over the next 10-20 years we will sufficiently slow or stop climate change.

      Upping the ante with "geoengineering" is failing to learn from our arrogant mistakes building up global industry that's causing climate change.

      Somehow you have solar becoming the cheapest energy source in 5-10 years, but also impeding research while poor people starve the world over. No more are starving than during the generations when coal and gas were still cheap.

      If you break a CFL you have to open the window and wash the area without vacuuming, not "evacuate". If you like heating with electricity from incandescents rather than burning fuel you can do so much more effectively with a $25 heater/blower on the floor than with a light bulb at the ceiling.

      You really don't know what you're talking about. But we should trust your dreams of "geoengineering" to compensate for your loud, big "sexy" cars. Electric cars are faster and sexier, too.

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      make install -not war

    22. Re:Makes Sense by Americium · · Score: 2

      If it was possible to do that just by increasing volume right now there would be hundreds are companies doing it. Since it's not possible yet, they demand subsidies that only strip money away from other areas of the economy. That was my ENTIRE point.

    23. Re:Makes Sense by bennomatic · · Score: 2

      Out of curiosity, why do you consider driving a hybrid to be nonsensical? It seems like a fine way to cut your fuel burning significantly without necessarily changing your habits.

      I'm not saying it's the only way to do things. I myself have a fairly inefficient SUV because if I want to go to the mountains with my wife, my kid and my dog, there's no way all of us would fit in a Prius. That being said, wherever possible, I use public or zero-emission (walk, bike) transportation, and I think we've put less than 6000 miles on the beast in the last 12 months, including a 1500 mile round-trip road trip to visit family last chrisma-hannu-kwanzaa.

      Point being, I agree that there are lots of ways to skin a cat, and many of those ways have short-term benefits (cost savings) as well as long term ones (earth savings). Unless you know something I don't about hybrids, what point is there in ridiculing the use of them to cut fuel consumption?

      --
      The CB App. What's your 20?
    24. Re:Makes Sense by Americium · · Score: 2

      To me, it's like the government demanding everyone have computers, when a computer still took up an entire building. It took TIME and RESEARCH to get to cheap iPhones. A government subsidy demanding we all have computers before they were ready wouldn't have helped, and personally, I think it would have just made it a lot longer to get to iPhones and the like. More money poured into NSF and other R&D companies would have helped, and I'm all for that approach, and the way we have the most money to throw into R&D is to use the cheapest form of energy we can right now.

      That's not to say we go back to no emission laws or anything, but CO2 is not nearly as bad as acid rain, and we can deal with another 5-10yrs of CO2 quite easily.

      BTW, I don't like iPhones, it was just a nice example.

    25. Re:Makes Sense by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 3, Informative

      It takes a lot of $billions to make a $trillion. Many of the $billions the petrofuel corps spend are handed to them by the US Congress. Which I'm paying so that you have cheaper gas than the $8 gallons the rest of the world has. And I'm not even counting the $billions in wars I'm helping pay so your gas supply chain stays open for business.

      I have CFLs that paid for themselves in six months over 2 years ago. All but one defective one are still working. I replaced incandescents at least 10-20% more often than that, but I have yet to actually see a CFL reach its lifetime. The CFL warnings say just what I said. They don't say "evacuate" or other exaggerations like what you said.

      Electric cars are already extremely fast when they're designed for speed instead of mileage efficiency. But the fact is that most people aren't as interested in the speed as in the efficiency. But people like you who are also benefit from them.

      You don't really know what you're talking about. You're just projecting from your foregone conclusions that protect your existing gasoline car.

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      make install -not war

    26. Re:Makes Sense by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 2

      I just waggled a pen in front of one with all the others off, and saw no distinct lines, "freeze frames" or anything like that. And I have quite acute vision.

      TVs flicker at 60Hz, and cinema at 24Hz, but most people don't care.

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      make install -not war

    27. Re:Makes Sense by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 2

      A $10,000 system with no battery backup can yield you about $500 a year in energy savings.

      As you say... 20 year pay back.

      But... then that $500 is tax free so if you are working, it's effectively double the actual return ($1000 a year).

      But then... energy costs since the early eighties have risen from 5.5c/kwh to 12.5c/kwh to 15c/kwh. (Get just a little bit careless and you can be looking at 24c/kwh).

      And then a solar system reduces your most expensive energy usage first.

      In 10 years, energy costs could double (just inflation- not actual cost). Suddenly your 10,000 investment pays off in 15 years.. and then gives you 1k per year (effectively 2k per year since you don't pay taxes on savings).

      There may be cheaper ways to get energy savings (for example a $24 LED bulb that lowers your energy usage from 40 watts to 10 watts). But once those are done, solar is not a bad deal. And it's a hell of a lot less risk than trying to invest it in the market ($10,000 invested in 2000 is worth about $9,000 right now).

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    28. Re:Makes Sense by phoenix321 · · Score: 2

      Some of us live in that magical land of fairytales where it's below zero every night for about half the year, every year, with temperatures during the day being not much higher.

      In a climate like this, banning small electric heaters that also give off some light is pretty hilarious.

      People heating their homes with electricity (very popular in France, BTW) should not use electric light bulbs because of what?

    29. Re:Makes Sense by dunkelfalke · · Score: 2

      So did those in my aquarium (I've bought it used). I've just replaced the two old ballasts with a twin electronic one. No flickering anymore and much faster startup with that.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    30. Re:Makes Sense by Jhon · · Score: 2

      They flicker. But then again, I can see CRT's flicker. I have an aspie son (and aspie myself) -- trust me. They flicker.

      That said, there was a school for aspie/autistic special needs kids I toured a few years ago. I walked around staring at the lights. When the director asked my why I was looking at the lights I responded "Because they aren't flickering". They were CFLs. But special CFLs. Their cycle rate is so high that even *I* couldn't notice. And they cost the school a fortune.

      With many distractions already in my environment, the last thing I need is flickering lights annoying the heck out of me.

    31. Re:Makes Sense by Score+Whore · · Score: 2

      I tend to get annoyed at LCD lights on Christmas trees, LCD lights inside of cars and brake lights, monitors, movies, CRT monitor refresh at low rates, and so forth.

      Huh? Do you mean LED? Also LED powered by a DC source (automobile instrument panels, brake lights, etc.) have zero flicker.

    32. Re:Makes Sense by Solandri · · Score: 2

      The petrofuels compete only on the $BILLIONS a year in subsidies they get. Which you are paying.

      You're conflating total subsidy dollars with amount of energy that's generated per subsidy dollar. Yes the oil companies get billions in subsidies. But the amount the oil companies get per unit of energy produced is peanuts compared to what developing technologies like solar and wind get. It has next to no impact on the competitiveness of the petroleum industry. (Note that these are subsidies only for electrical generation. But the figures I found for total subsidies for the oil industry were only about 4x higher, which would still put it far, far below what solar and wind get per MWh.)

      Page 6, table E35, subsidy dollars per MWh
      Coal - $0.44
      Refined Coal - $29.81
      Natural Gas and Petroleum $0.25
      Nuclear - $1.59
      Biofuels - $0.89
      Geothermal - $0.92
      Hydroelectric - $0.67
      Solar - $24.34
      Wind - $23.37
      Landfill Gas - $1.37
      Municipal solid waste - $0.13

      Instead of concentrating on total subsidy dollars (which is silly - like arguing a homeless shelter is wasteful because it spends $5,000/mo on food while you only spend $100/mo), you need admit that solar and wind are getting disproportionately large subsidies for the amount of energy they produce, but then shift the argument over to appropriateness of the subsidy. Nuclear, oil, and coal all got substantial government aid when they were first being developed. Solar and wind deserve the same. So their extraordinarily high subsidy per unit of energy is warranted.

    33. Re:Makes Sense by toddestan · · Score: 2

      If you're heating your home electrically, and you live in a cold climate, you should be using a heat pump as it's way more efficient than resistive electric heating.

      The only places where resistive electric heaters make any sense is relatively mild climates where you may only need heat a few days a year, and it's not worth the cost of installing a heat pump system.

    34. Re:Makes Sense by toddestan · · Score: 2

      Some cars, particularly Cadillacs but also some others, dim their LED tailights by flickering the lights on and off rapidly rather than simply lowering the voltage to the bulbs. I'm not sure what the exact frequency it is, but it has to be around 40-80 Hz. It's very noticeable on the cars that do it this way.

    35. Re:Makes Sense by khallow · · Score: 2

      Those people will all be dead with everyone else due to the global warming so you can safely overlook their misguided opinions.

      Since the climatologists aren't talking about end of the world stuff either, they must be misguided as well.

    36. Re:Makes Sense by benhattman · · Score: 2

      I think your explanation of why the right wing doesn't want to accept global warming or that it makes sense to reduce greenhouse gas emissions is because they think we'll suffer. You're essentially right in saying that we don't need to suffer at all, just change how we generate electricity.

      From what I've been told, by people on the far right; the real reason that the political far right is so vitriolic towards climate change research is because they do not like anyone suggesting how they should behave. Unless, of course they are told to buy gold. Or stock up on canned goods. Or go to church. Or rally against socialists. Or pack heat. Or ignore leftists radicals like climate scientists. In those cases, they don't mind doing as others tell them, but if they are told to recycle or turn off the lights when they leave the room: no thank you!

  2. vs. the alternative fuel methods by jroysdon · · Score: 3, Interesting

    It sure beats living by nukes, coal plants, tire burning plants, etc., eh? Even a natural gas power generation plant isn't nice to live by. Plus, you don't have to worry about the neighbors being noisy.

    1. Re:vs. the alternative fuel methods by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It sure beats living by nukes, coal plants, tire burning plants, etc., eh?

      If I were on my roof, I could see a nuclear power plant. Doesn't bother me at all.

      If a coal plant were over there, I'd have moved years ago. Ditto tire-burning.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
  3. Yep by ShooterNeo · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This is one of the reasons why it's supposed to be worth it to install solar in some places. There's heavy subsidies that bring down the cost, and electricity rates are extremely high during parts of the day in California. And you get your money back instantly when you install the panels, because if you were to sell the house the next day, the sale price would be boosted by the value of the panels.

    Well, that's what they say, at least, and this article seems to prove it.

    1. Re:Yep by ShooterNeo · · Score: 2

      Well, I looked in to it myself. The best case scenario is you DIY, half for the fun of tinkering with it. If you DIY, and get the panels from sunelec.com (the cheapest place I have found so far), and install them yourself (all but the last step - get an electrician to sign off on your wiring and do the final connection to the grid) it's a pretty good deal. You'd break even in 5 or 6 years at 10 cents a kilowatt hour.

    2. Re:Yep by Pstrobus · · Score: 2

      In ten years, the solar panel technology will get better and cheaper.

      Yes, and ten years from then they will be even better and cheaper, so what? If you don't do something because it'll be even better in th future, you do nothing today. So, while you could be offsetting some of your energy costs now and for ten years into the future, you are instead paying the same While-U-Wait.

      --
      "The conduct of neither [party], if strictly examined, will be irreproachable." -Elizabeth Bennet
    3. Re:Yep by Belial6 · · Score: 2

      That's pretty good since I pay $0.32/kwh, and have paid as much as $0.48/kwh.

  4. Strawman opposition destroyed! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Sorry, but people arguing from a NIMBY perspective have never claimed that domestic solar power degrades home values. This is simply an attempt to attribute a completely illogical and unreasonable opposition to someone.

    It's likely that many NIMBY opponents have argued against wind farms based on a) their own personal taste as to what they can see outside their window, b) a perception that house prices will be affected negatively if what you see (and hear) are wind farms.

    If it's their own personal taste it comes to then arguments about house prices aren't very relevant and don't contradict any arguments - if it's house prices it comes to then the study referred to in the article isn't highly precise, as it doesn't track house prices through time. You would usually only see wind farms from locations with great views, and hear them in a somewhat larger radius, hence a simple "do houses close to wind farms sell for less at this point in time" would be difficult to make accurate.

  5. Cost to install by meza · · Score: 2

    The article mentions an avarage cost of $5000 to install 1 kW of solar, so it seems like a pretty good investment overall.

    1. Re:Cost to install by ShakaUVM · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's closer to $6k per kW in my next of the woods (that's why I paid), but I'm sure you can find a company to do it for $5k. I went with a company that had done some installations in my neighborhood, though, and had a pretty good reputation.

      If you don't want to pay the money up front, you take out a loan, and use the monthly savings on your power bill to pay off the loan. As long as you're paying more than 24c/kWh you'll run a net positive balance, and end up with a solar system of your own after 10 years.

      There's companies that will actually do this for you - they'll install the system on your house for free, and then just sell you the power out of it. Here in California, if you're running in the high tier power rates, it's a good investment. They also lock in your power rate at a fixed price, whereas PG&E tends to raise rates one or twice a year. There's really no downside to doing this, unless you're planning on reducing your power consumption and/or expect PG&E to lower their rates in the future.

  6. "Property Prices" is code. by FatLittleMonkey · · Score: 4, Insightful

    These results contradict the arguments based on degrading home values used by [...] opponents

    Members of home associations that ban solar panels aren't really arguing that panels lower property prices, they're arguing "I don't want to see it". It's the same with most HA rules aimed at "protecting property values".

    --
    Science is all about firing a drunk pig out of a cannon just to see what happens.
  7. That hasn't quite been my experience by DRMShill · · Score: 3, Interesting

    A few years ago I got a deal from Nevada Power where they paid for half the cost of a 5kwh array. It was working great until work forced me to relocate to another state. I had a hell of a time selling the place because the general public is just not technical enough to appreciate it. One potential buyer got a static shock from the carpet as is common in the dry vegas air. She actuually thought the solar power array caused it! How am I supposed to reason with that kind of stupidity?

  8. No Kidding by ShakaUVM · · Score: 4, Informative

    No kidding - you put $30k in on a solar system and that raises house prices? Because people don't need to pay extortionate power rates? What a weird concept.

    The fact of the matter is, California has the highest power rates in the nation (I'd assign blame in equal parts to NIMBYs, environmentalists, PG&E, the PUC, and our legislature). Running air conditioning in the summer will kick you up into Tier 5 rates, which are currently around 50c/kWh. Getting a four digit power bill for one month is enough to convince even the most ardent anti-environmentalist of the value of solar.

    If you run the numbers, rooftop solar has a levelized cost of about 24c/kWh. So it's worth it to build out capacity to meet however much power you use in the higher tier rates (Tiers 3 through 5). You don't necessarily want to run your power bills to zero (Tiers 1 and 2 are subsidized by the higher rates), but if you do, PG&E will write you a check at the end of the year. (How much has yet to be determined.) Schwarzenegger got that pushed through at the end of his term of governor - before that, PG&E would just pocket any excess capacity you generate.

    I actually just had solar put in and finally turned on a couple weeks ago. It's nice running a net positive balance with PG&E, though it's still too cool for air conditioning.

  9. HOA bans are mostly illegal by raygundan · · Score: 3, Informative

    Most states have specific laws that prevent HOAs from banning solar panels.

  10. Re:Transition by Rei · · Score: 2

    Hawaii already requires solar water heating on new homes.

    --
    Then the winter came, and the Grasshopper died. And the Octopus ate all his acorns. Also, he got a racecar.
  11. News flash: fashion items lift house values by Snorbert+Xangox · · Score: 3, Interesting

    This is not surprising, but not that encouraging either. If you pay for a bit of fancy landscaping and planting around your house before you sell it, you can often improve your house resale value by much more than the cost of the work. Solar also offers a warm glow of righteousness far out of proportion with energy generated.

    Where I live (50km south of Canberra, Australia), we're paying ~20 of your Earth cents for a kWh during the day around here, so if you assume 7kWh per day from a 1kW solar installation (not that hard here, as we get a lot of sun), it takes 14 years to earn back $3900. Electricity will certainly go up in cost during that time, but I wonder whether you wouldn't be better putting $4000 into some safe-ish investment and concentrating on reducing your energy usage instead.

    For years, I was holding out for Nanosolar or First Solar to get domestic panels out at somewhere nearer to $2/kW and without so much embodied energy in the panels, but they don't look to be interested in domestic sales. Until then, the only reason that panels are cheap in Australia is because of very high government regulated feed-in tariffs and purchase subsidies, which are just middle-class welfare masquerading as a renewable energy policy.

    Until the government killed the program, there were businesses here doing energy efficiency assessments to see if houses qualified for interest free government loans to improve energy efficiency or install solar systems. An interview I heard with one assessor gave the impression that most houses had considerable inefficiency to rectify before it made any sense installing generating capacity. New Australian houses are still much less insulated than new houses in northern Europe or North America, rely too much on resistive electrical heating for the house and for the hot water supply, and the current fashion for building faux-Mediterranean rendered boxes with no roof overhang guarantees high cooling costs in summer. Old Australian houses often had no (as in, ZERO) insulation in them. Visitors from northern Europe are amazed at how uncomfortable and slapdash many of our houses are.

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    -Snorbert, somewhere in the antipodes
    1. Re:News flash: fashion items lift house values by j-beda · · Score: 2

      Where I live (50km south of Canberra, Australia), we're paying ~20 of your Earth cents for a kWh during the day around here, so if you assume 7kWh per day from a 1kW solar installation (not that hard here, as we get a lot of sun), it takes 14 years to earn back $3900. Electricity will certainly go up in cost during that time, but I wonder whether you wouldn't be better putting $4000 into some safe-ish investment and concentrating on reducing your energy usage instead.

      7kWh x $0.20 x 365 = $511/year. That looks like 7.63 years to get to $3900. To "match" that, your $3900 would need to be invested to get a 13.1% yearly return in order to generate $511. 13% is not easy to come by.

      One often overlooked factor for energy saving or generating investments is that money saved is equivalent to a tax-free income. If you take your $3900 and manage to get a return of $511/year you would have to pay taxes on that income. I don't really know what the average tax rate is in Australia, but Wikipedia seems to indicate that for every dollar earned over $3700, it is 30% (15% at $6k, 30% at $37k, 37% at $80k and 45% at 180k). Assuming your income is between $37k and $80k, you actually need an investment return of $730 so that when you pay your 30% ($219) you are left with the desired $511. $730 is a bit more than 17.1% of $3900 by the way.

      I gather that solar water heating is the real way to make a "safe" investment for most moderate climates like the USA. The systems are very simple and relatively inexpensive. Even in upstate NY, estimates are that 50% of one's water heating can be provided by a solar system. Particularly for those who heat their water with electricity those can be pretty significant cost savings.

      But as you say - before any new system is installed, caulking of cracks and insulation (with maybe some shade tree planting for the long term) has an even quicker return on investment.

  12. Re:YES BUT... by SuricouRaven · · Score: 2

    Then they should get their own solar panels.

  13. Re:But when does it start paying off? by dubbayu_d_40 · · Score: 2

    30K for how much? I paid 11.5K for 3kw.

    Also, instead of thinking about paying it off, think about it as an investment. The premise being, you get your cash back when you sell your home.

    I get a 12% annual return on my solar investment. That'll improve as energy gets more expensive.

  14. Re:But when does it start paying off? by j-beda · · Score: 2

    Spend 30k now only to have to wait ten years to break even? By then, you'll probably be in another house, in another city.

    I don't know that a 10% tax-free return on investment is anything to sneeze at. It also seems less volatile that most equities - the downside risk is that your local power costs are perhaps going to dramatically decrease? If the summary is has any validity, it seems as though moving is not much of an issue as the house value would have increased to offset some or all of the investment.

  15. Re:But when does it start paying off? by jasno · · Score: 3, Informative

    Check out the solar lease deals. I just signed up with Sun Run to install solar on my house. They own the panels, and I don't pay them anything up-front. They get the rebates, and then sell me discounted electricity from my panels. They also maintain the system. If I move, the system gets transferred to the new owner(assuming they have good credit, which is a safe bet if they're buying my house).

    --

    http://www.masturbateforpeace.com/
  16. My 3kw solar panels could even be worth $35,000 by skidisk · · Score: 4, Informative

    I put panels up 6 years ago and they save roughly $2,000/year in electricity here in California ( my previous three years before panels were $6100; I've spent $300 over the last 6 years on electricity).

    A prospective home owner knows they won't have to pay that $2000/year on electricity, so if they pour that into a 4% loan, they can borrow an extra $35,000 for that roughly $160/mo savings.

    So to see a story say that my panels should be worth between $10K-$20K to a home buyer makes total sense.

  17. Re:But when does it start paying off? by Firethorn · · Score: 2

    By then, you'll probably be in another house, in another city.

    Thus the whole point of this article - that you can generally recover the costs of the installation if you end up moving.

    --
    I don't read AC A human right
  18. Not Surprised by Ferretman · · Score: 2

    This doesn't surprise me, what with rising electrical costs.

    I just completed construction on a new house and went out of my way to put a hefty solar system (30 panels, ~6.6kwh) on it. I absolutely, positively, in every single way love it!

    Ferretman

    --
    Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc
  19. Re:Dual use is the answer by MoonBuggy · · Score: 2

    I farm giraffes, you insensitive clod.

  20. Costco Solar for $3.55:W by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Costco is now selling solar PV systems including a 5060WDC for $18K, or $3.55:W. $5.50:W increased home value sounds like a good way to nearly double your investment in solar, even before the subsidies cut the cost to $2:W or less, tripling it or better.

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    --
    make install -not war

  21. SHould be REQUIRED on new homes by WindBourne · · Score: 2

    Seriously, in the USA, construction has all but died. What is currently going is high-end homes and business (including apartment). What would make sense at this time, would be to require that all new buildings in the lower 49, to have 1/2 or more of monthly HVAC done by Solar PV. Now, that sounds like a lot, but it really is not. What it WILL do is encourage construction firms to increase insulation esp. on windows. In addition, it will encourage builders to move to geothermal heat pumps. The reason is that they are cheap to install up front, but most importantly, they have similar energy requirements winter and summer.
    By requiring this, it will also make these places NOT compete against for-closed places. That later part is very important. The reason is that it prevents new homes from competing.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.